Pianotech

Esteemed colleagues,

Where did the action center bushings that discouraged all investigation by Steinway in recent past into alternative materials to woods and metals get produced anyway? At the factory?

Did these get made in China? Should we blame outsourcing? Is none other than New York, New York, responsible for this horrendous blunder? 

------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

Mr. Sloane,

Do you mean to inquire about the teflon bushings themselves or are you really asking about the tumbled brass center pins? While using a bushing insert that doesn't change dimension with humidity, in a wood part that does, turned out to be a mistake; I'm pretty sure that the center pins were blameless.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 05:37
From: Benjamin Sloane
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

Esteemed colleagues,

Where did the action center pins that discouraged all investigation by Steinway in recent past into alternative materials to woods and metals get produced anyway? At the factory?

Did these get made in China? Should we blame outsourcing? Is none other than New York, New York, responsible for this horrendous blunder? 

------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

You mean bushings not pins? Westerners like me clueless
------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 09:05
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

Mr. Sloane,

Do you mean to inquire about the teflon bushings themselves or are you really asking about the tumbled brass center pins? While using a bushing insert that doesn't change dimension with humidity, in a wood part that does, turned out to be a mistake; I'm pretty sure that the center pins were blameless.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 05:37
From: Benjamin Sloane
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

Esteemed colleagues,

Where did the action center bushings that discouraged all investigation by Steinway in recent past into alternative materials to woods and metals get produced anyway? At the factory?

Did these get made in China? Should we blame outsourcing? Is none other than New York, New York, responsible for this horrendous blunder? 

------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

I believe the blame for inventing the Teflon bushing at NY Steinway resides with Joe Pramberger, and its end resides with Joe Bisceglie.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 09:46
From: Benjamin Sloane
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

You mean bushings not pins? Westerners like me clueless
------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 09:05
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

Mr. Sloane,

Do you mean to inquire about the teflon bushings themselves or are you really asking about the tumbled brass center pins? While using a bushing insert that doesn't change dimension with humidity, in a wood part that does, turned out to be a mistake; I'm pretty sure that the center pins were blameless.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 05:37
From: Benjamin Sloane
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

Esteemed colleagues,

Where did the action center bushings that discouraged all investigation by Steinway in recent past into alternative materials to woods and metals get produced anyway? At the factory?

Did these get made in China? Should we blame outsourcing? Is none other than New York, New York, responsible for this horrendous blunder? 

------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

I believe the word "blame" is rather harsh and Joe Pramberger is not with us to defend himself or tell his side of it. From what I know he was a brilliant piano engineer/designer and the Signature series I have worked on are all great pianos.

I know that the Teflon actions became problematic after the actions got into the field but at that time the idea was sound and it seemed like a great innovation. Older Steinways with the verdigris action centers may have driven the search for a better mouse trap sort of speak and I would think more people than just Joe had their input.

There are many examples of "seemed like a good idea" at the time. How about the plastic elbow problems found in several brands of pianos or actions loaded with other plastic parts like jacks. We have also had to deal with flaking center pins in certain brands of pianos. I had a nice Ivers & Pond piano here that was absolutely loaded with plastic action parts.

I think the correct term for Teflon actions is PermaFree . Despite the best testing in a research facility or test lab nothing can re-produce what is in the field . I see some extreme conditions here on the coast. One customer has a Yamaha with a string cover and full Dampp Chaser and keeps the HVAC and humidity in the safe zone- no problems. Another has a Yamaha grand with none of the above , opens windows and doors to smell the ocean breezes- strings rusted like barbed wire and tight action centers wonders why the piano plays bad

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 05:37
From: Benjamin Sloane
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

Esteemed colleagues,

Where did the action center bushings that discouraged all investigation by Steinway in recent past into alternative materials to woods and metals get produced anyway? At the factory?

Did these get made in China? Should we blame outsourcing? Is none other than New York, New York, responsible for this horrendous blunder? 

------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

Of course by the early 80's they eventually solved all the problems with teflon by encasing it in a metal sleeve (which turned out to be a pretty expensive solution), but by then the damage was done and it was too late to try to save face any longer. Now we have Perma-Free II.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 11:47
From: James Kelly
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

I believe the word "blame" is rather harsh and Joe Pramberger is not with us to defend himself or tell his side of it. From what I know he was a brilliant piano engineer/designer and the Signature series I have worked on are all great pianos.

I know that the Teflon actions became problematic after the actions got into the field but at that time the idea was sound and it seemed like a great innovation. Older Steinways with the verdigris action centers may have driven the search for a better mouse trap sort of speak and I would think more people than just Joe had their input.

There are many examples of "seemed like a good idea" at the time. How about the plastic elbow problems found in several brands of pianos or actions loaded with other plastic parts like jacks. We have also had to deal with flaking center pins in certain brands of pianos. I had a nice Ivers & Pond piano here that was absolutely loaded with plastic action parts.

I think the correct term for Teflon actions is PermaFree . Despite the best testing in a research facility or test lab nothing can re-produce what is in the field . I see some extreme conditions here on the coast. One customer has a Yamaha with a string cover and full Dampp Chaser and keeps the HVAC and humidity in the safe zone- no problems. Another has a Yamaha grand with none of the above , opens windows and doors to smell the ocean breezes- strings rusted like barbed wire and tight action centers wonders why the piano plays bad

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 05:37
From: Benjamin Sloane
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

Esteemed colleagues,

Where did the action center bushings that discouraged all investigation by Steinway in recent past into alternative materials to woods and metals get produced anyway? At the factory?

Did these get made in China? Should we blame outsourcing? Is none other than New York, New York, responsible for this horrendous blunder? 

------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 14:37
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

Of course by the early 80's they eventually solved all the problems with teflon by encasing it in a metal sleeve (which turned out to be a pretty expensive solution), but by then the damage was done and it was too late to try to save face any longer. Now we have Perma-Free II.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 11:47
From: James Kelly
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

I believe the word "blame" is rather harsh and Joe Pramberger is not with us to defend himself or tell his side of it. From what I know he was a brilliant piano engineer/designer and the Signature series I have worked on are all great pianos.

I know that the Teflon actions became problematic after the actions got into the field but at that time the idea was sound and it seemed like a great innovation. Older Steinways with the verdigris action centers may have driven the search for a better mouse trap sort of speak and I would think more people than just Joe had their input.

There are many examples of "seemed like a good idea" at the time. How about the plastic elbow problems found in several brands of pianos or actions loaded with other plastic parts like jacks. We have also had to deal with flaking center pins in certain brands of pianos. I had a nice Ivers & Pond piano here that was absolutely loaded with plastic action parts.

I think the correct term for Teflon actions is PermaFree . Despite the best testing in a research facility or test lab nothing can re-produce what is in the field . I see some extreme conditions here on the coast. One customer has a Yamaha with a string cover and full Dampp Chaser and keeps the HVAC and humidity in the safe zone- no problems. Another has a Yamaha grand with none of the above , opens windows and doors to smell the ocean breezes- strings rusted like barbed wire and tight action centers wonders why the piano plays bad

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 05:37
From: Benjamin Sloane
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

Esteemed colleagues,

Where did the action center bushings that discouraged all investigation by Steinway in recent past into alternative materials to woods and metals get produced anyway? At the factory?

Did these get made in China? Should we blame outsourcing? Is none other than New York, New York, responsible for this horrendous blunder? 

------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

Benjamin, Have you investigated the string scale options called "Hybrid Wire Scales"? Paulello type I and O wire can be used in the lowest plain strings with very much improved tone and tuning stability. If you have access to Pure Sound stainless that works really well for notes 21 and 22. Pure Sound wire is no longer in production though.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 16:32
From: Benjamin Sloane
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

This is just a thang nobody followed Steinway on. Hitch pins for double winding strings on treble side of break are another thing. Nobody chewing out Young Chang for that. No #s on percentage of piano manufacturers in the Occident out of business compared to the Orient. Probably would be useless as that the East just buys the name in bankruptcy proceedings.

Don't get me wrong I love the Steinway B. That doesn't mean at the break stability problems don't exist because it was engineered wrong. Baldwin F is great also but could be deficient for the same reason. But we argue about out of production action brackets and out of production action center bushings.
 

------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 14:37
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

Of course by the early 80's they eventually solved all the problems with teflon by encasing it in a metal sleeve (which turned out to be a pretty expensive solution), but by then the damage was done and it was too late to try to save face any longer. Now we have Perma-Free II.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 11:47
From: James Kelly
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

I believe the word "blame" is rather harsh and Joe Pramberger is not with us to defend himself or tell his side of it. From what I know he was a brilliant piano engineer/designer and the Signature series I have worked on are all great pianos.

I know that the Teflon actions became problematic after the actions got into the field but at that time the idea was sound and it seemed like a great innovation. Older Steinways with the verdigris action centers may have driven the search for a better mouse trap sort of speak and I would think more people than just Joe had their input.

There are many examples of "seemed like a good idea" at the time. How about the plastic elbow problems found in several brands of pianos or actions loaded with other plastic parts like jacks. We have also had to deal with flaking center pins in certain brands of pianos. I had a nice Ivers & Pond piano here that was absolutely loaded with plastic action parts.

I think the correct term for Teflon actions is PermaFree . Despite the best testing in a research facility or test lab nothing can re-produce what is in the field . I see some extreme conditions here on the coast. One customer has a Yamaha with a string cover and full Dampp Chaser and keeps the HVAC and humidity in the safe zone- no problems. Another has a Yamaha grand with none of the above , opens windows and doors to smell the ocean breezes- strings rusted like barbed wire and tight action centers wonders why the piano plays bad

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 05:37
From: Benjamin Sloane
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

Esteemed colleagues,

Where did the action center bushings that discouraged all investigation by Steinway in recent past into alternative materials to woods and metals get produced anyway? At the factory?

Did these get made in China? Should we blame outsourcing? Is none other than New York, New York, responsible for this horrendous blunder? 

------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

Original Message------

Benjamin, Have you investigated the string scale options called "Hybrid Wire Scales"? Paulello type I and O wire can be used in the lowest plain strings with very much improved tone and tuning stability. If you have access to Pure Sound stainless that works really well for notes 21 and 22. Pure Sound wire is no longer in production though.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

I have always thought this argument against the use of Paulello (and Pure Sound) wire is a Red Herring.  That logic could be used against virtually any product or material that we buy, yet we buy most things anyway.  All computer software that we buy runs this risk as a virtual certainty. .They will stop making parts for our cars eventually, so we shouldn't buy a car.

Chris, it is a risk to benefit analysis.  Having scaled every piano that I have rebuilt in the last 5 years or so with Paulello wire notes 1 to 88, I know from direct and consistent experience that the tonal benefits this wire brings are so compelling and positive for the entire scale that it is absolutely worth doing.  It's a no brainer at this point.   I get results that are possible by no other means.

Jim Ialeggio and I, as well as some others, know how incredibly good this wire is.  Applied wisely, it will step up the game of any piano scaler.  It still seems a bit odd to be seen as an outlier when we are using the finest and most versatile piano wire in the world.  That's not hyperbole.  

For those of you who scale by the traditional means of tension and inharmonicity as the most primary considerations, I encourage you to read Hans Velo's article on XM Paulello wire and Inharmonicity in bass strings in the current Journal, and then visit his website for followup material to read, and some videos to watch where he is scaling using his own program written in Excel.  You can use automatic routines to run plain wire and bass strings scales modifications three ways:  Tension, inharmonicity, or a combination of both.  From there, you can substitute any of the four wire types that are suited to rescaling modern pianos, 1, 0, M, or XM as you see where it will benefit the scale.  

I wish the article had been a bit longer, as it would benefit from being fleshed out more, particularly for those of us who want to see the numbers behind it all.  That said, he has done his homework and his results are consistent with my experience.  

Will


------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 22:53
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

What happens to the hybrid scales in the future when the specialty wires are no longer available?

Will,

Although I generally agree with your take on this wire business, there can be some cause for concern (perhaps slight).  

Having had significant experience with Puresound wire (and I still use it exactly as Ed mentioned), it's deficiencies did not show up until some time down the road. I loved the tone and workability of it, but breakage became a significant problem. I eventually stopped using it in sizes smaller than 16 gauge, and then eventually nothing more than at the bass/tenor break (works nicely there).

So, what I'm saying is that all may look good right now, but if a manufacturer  (for some unforeseeable reason) cannot, or decides not to, continue production (perhaps due to sagging demand, etc.)  then it goes away. Any specialty type of material runs this risk. Obviously, if it takes off and there is high demand, little to worry about. I'm not trying to be cynical...just realistic.

I, for one, am interested in the stuff but I need to learn more about it and it's capabilities. Doubtlessly you can help me with that. 😎

Pwg 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2017 05:58
From: William Truitt
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

I have always thought this argument against the use of Paulello (and Pure Sound) wire is a Red Herring.  That logic could be used against virtually any product or material that we buy, yet we buy most things anyway.  All computer software that we buy runs this risk as a virtual certainty. .They will stop making parts for our cars eventually, so we shouldn't buy a car.

Chris, it is a risk to benefit analysis.  Having scaled every piano that I have rebuilt in the last 5 years or so with Paulello wire notes 1 to 88, I know from direct and consistent experience that the tonal benefits this wire brings are so compelling and positive for the entire scale that it is absolutely worth doing.  It's a no brainer at this point.   I get results that are possible by no other means.

Jim Ialeggio and I, as well as some others, know how incredibly good this wire is.  Applied wisely, it will step up the game of any piano scaler.  It still seems a bit odd to be seen as an outlier when we are using the finest and most versatile piano wire in the world.  That's not hyperbole.  

For those of you who scale by the traditional means of tension and inharmonicity as the most primary considerations, I encourage you to read Hans Velo's article on XM Paulello wire and Inharmonicity in bass strings in the current Journal, and then visit his website for followup material to read, and some videos to watch where he is scaling using his own program written in Excel.  You can use automatic routines to run plain wire and bass strings scales modifications three ways:  Tension, inharmonicity, or a combination of both.  From there, you can substitute any of the four wire types that are suited to rescaling modern pianos, 1, 0, M, or XM as you see where it will benefit the scale.  

I wish the article had been a bit longer, as it would benefit from being fleshed out more, particularly for those of us who want to see the numbers behind it all.  That said, he has done his homework and his results are consistent with my experience.  

Will


------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 22:53
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

What happens to the hybrid scales in the future when the specialty wires are no longer available?

Hi Peter:

I am aware of the breakage issues that others have encountered with Pure Sound wire, but I have never used it myself.  Ed McMorrow has a lot of experience with it, so he is one who can better to speak to that.

While both Pure Sound and Paulello wire are used for hybrid stringing, they are dissimilar materials.  Pure Sound is stainless steel, and Paulello wire is more like our traditional wire in content, but is handled very differently in the making of the wire.  There may be some other materials in the alloy, but the information on that so far is proprietary.  That said, I have never had a Paulello piano string break on me, never.  That's not a large enough sample to draw meaningful conclusions.  But I will say that, since I am scaling using the breaking percentage (Practical Breaking Load %, or PBL%) as the foremost consideration, I always know where I am, and I am conservative in how far I push it.  Areas like the low tenor are always suffering from low tension and breaking percent, so my substitution of a weaker wire type (such as Type 1 Paulello) may raise the PBL% 15 or 20 %, but still be well within safe limits. If my analysis of the original scale shows that the BP is very high, then I can choose to substitute Type XM, which is the strongest wire type, and stronger than the equivalent Roslau or Mapes wire,

That said, I give no more consideration to breakage with Paulello wire than I would Roslau or Mapes.

The wire has been around since 1995.  I have had this breakage conversation with Arno Patin (the former North America supplier) and Stephen Paulello.  Both shared that there were no reports of excessive breakage from users.  I don't know what the reports will be after 50 years or more, but the wire is made with such extraordinary care that I have little concern about it making the long haul.. 

The possibility always exists that it could go away, but that's true for so many things, large or small.  I can only say that I have never been disappointed.  These days it comes directly from Stephen Paulello in France, but is of little inconvenience.   My customers absolutely love the sound that it brings to their piano.

I don't think it will ever be mainstream piano wire.  It's too expensive, and it requires more sizes and types in order to scale to the needs of an individual piano (I now have about 30 different reels)

I would be happy to share with you anything I can, Peter.  You can call me, visit my shop at the right time, or chat at a Guild meeting.  I hope this has been helpful.  

Will

------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2017 14:39
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

Will,

Although I generally agree with your take on this wire business, there can be some cause for concern (perhaps slight).  

Having had significant experience with Puresound wire (and I still use it exactly as Ed mentioned), it's deficiencies did not show up until some time down the road. I loved the tone and workability of it, but breakage became a significant problem. I eventually stopped using it in sizes smaller than 16 gauge, and then eventually nothing more than at the bass/tenor break (works nicely there).

So, what I'm saying is that all may look good right now, but if a manufacturer  (for some unforeseeable reason) cannot, or decides not to, continue production (perhaps due to sagging demand, etc.)  then it goes away. Any specialty type of material runs this risk. Obviously, if it takes off and there is high demand, little to worry about. I'm not trying to be cynical...just realistic.

I, for one, am interested in the stuff but I need to learn more about it and it's capabilities. Doubtlessly you can help me with that. 😎

Pwg 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2017 05:58
From: William Truitt
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

I have always thought this argument against the use of Paulello (and Pure Sound) wire is a Red Herring.  That logic could be used against virtually any product or material that we buy, yet we buy most things anyway.  All computer software that we buy runs this risk as a virtual certainty. .They will stop making parts for our cars eventually, so we shouldn't buy a car.

Chris, it is a risk to benefit analysis.  Having scaled every piano that I have rebuilt in the last 5 years or so with Paulello wire notes 1 to 88, I know from direct and consistent experience that the tonal benefits this wire brings are so compelling and positive for the entire scale that it is absolutely worth doing.  It's a no brainer at this point.   I get results that are possible by no other means.

Jim Ialeggio and I, as well as some others, know how incredibly good this wire is.  Applied wisely, it will step up the game of any piano scaler.  It still seems a bit odd to be seen as an outlier when we are using the finest and most versatile piano wire in the world.  That's not hyperbole.  

For those of you who scale by the traditional means of tension and inharmonicity as the most primary considerations, I encourage you to read Hans Velo's article on XM Paulello wire and Inharmonicity in bass strings in the current Journal, and then visit his website for followup material to read, and some videos to watch where he is scaling using his own program written in Excel.  You can use automatic routines to run plain wire and bass strings scales modifications three ways:  Tension, inharmonicity, or a combination of both.  From there, you can substitute any of the four wire types that are suited to rescaling modern pianos, 1, 0, M, or XM as you see where it will benefit the scale.  

I wish the article had been a bit longer, as it would benefit from being fleshed out more, particularly for those of us who want to see the numbers behind it all.  That said, he has done his homework and his results are consistent with my experience.  

Will


------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 22:53
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

What happens to the hybrid scales in the future when the specialty wires are no longer available?

Dear fellow Wolves,
I've been told that this trail of overcooked kippers does not lead to the settlers. But it might?!

------------------------------
ChrisChernobieff
Chernobieff Piano and Harpsichord Mfg.
Lenoir City TN
865-986-7720
chrisppff@gmail.com
www.facebook.com/ChernobieffPianoandHarpsichordMFG
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2017 05:58
From: William Truitt
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

I have always thought this argument against the use of Paulello (and Pure Sound) wire is a Red Herring.  That logic could be used against virtually any product or material that we buy, yet we buy most things anyway.  All computer software that we buy runs this risk as a virtual certainty. .They will stop making parts for our cars eventually, so we shouldn't buy a car.

Chris, it is a risk to benefit analysis.  Having scaled every piano that I have rebuilt in the last 5 years or so with Paulello wire notes 1 to 88, I know from direct and consistent experience that the tonal benefits this wire brings are so compelling and positive for the entire scale that it is absolutely worth doing.  It's a no brainer at this point.   I get results that are possible by no other means.

Jim Ialeggio and I, as well as some others, know how incredibly good this wire is.  Applied wisely, it will step up the game of any piano scaler.  It still seems a bit odd to be seen as an outlier when we are using the finest and most versatile piano wire in the world.  That's not hyperbole.  

For those of you who scale by the traditional means of tension and inharmonicity as the most primary considerations, I encourage you to read Hans Velo's article on XM Paulello wire and Inharmonicity in bass strings in the current Journal, and then visit his website for followup material to read, and some videos to watch where he is scaling using his own program written in Excel.  You can use automatic routines to run plain wire and bass strings scales modifications three ways:  Tension, inharmonicity, or a combination of both.  From there, you can substitute any of the four wire types that are suited to rescaling modern pianos, 1, 0, M, or XM as you see where it will benefit the scale.  

I wish the article had been a bit longer, as it would benefit from being fleshed out more, particularly for those of us who want to see the numbers behind it all.  That said, he has done his homework and his results are consistent with my experience.  

Will


------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 22:53
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

What happens to the hybrid scales in the future when the specialty wires are no longer available?

Original Message------

I have always thought this argument against the use of Paulello (and Pure Sound) wire is a Red Herring.  That logic could be used against virtually any product or material that we buy, yet we buy most things anyway.  All computer software that we buy runs this risk as a virtual certainty. .They will stop making parts for our cars eventually, so we shouldn't buy a car.

Chris, it is a risk to benefit analysis.  Having scaled every piano that I have rebuilt in the last 5 years or so with Paulello wire notes 1 to 88, I know from direct and consistent experience that the tonal benefits this wire brings are so compelling and positive for the entire scale that it is absolutely worth doing.  It's a no brainer at this point.   I get results that are possible by no other means.

Jim Ialeggio and I, as well as some others, know how incredibly good this wire is.  Applied wisely, it will step up the game of any piano scaler.  It still seems a bit odd to be seen as an outlier when we are using the finest and most versatile piano wire in the world.  That's not hyperbole.  

For those of you who scale by the traditional means of tension and inharmonicity as the most primary considerations, I encourage you to read Hans Velo's article on XM Paulello wire and Inharmonicity in bass strings in the current Journal, and then visit his website for followup material to read, and some videos to watch where he is scaling using his own program written in Excel.  You can use automatic routines to run plain wire and bass strings scales modifications three ways:  Tension, inharmonicity, or a combination of both.  From there, you can substitute any of the four wire types that are suited to rescaling modern pianos, 1, 0, M, or XM as you see where it will benefit the scale.  

I wish the article had been a bit longer, as it would benefit from being fleshed out more, particularly for those of us who want to see the numbers behind it all.  That said, he has done his homework and his results are consistent with my experience.  

Will


------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277
------------------------------

Michael,
This is not a "my brand is better than your brand" argument, it is about a better understanding of scaling, and how to use available materials to produce better results on bass scaling.
Read the article.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-07-2017 07:02
From: Michael Gamble
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

Will - Is this a case 'against' Roslau Blue (as used by most manufacturers on the Continent - certainly S&S) from 1 - 88.?  I'm not sure what Bosendorfer use in their 'Imperial' Concert Grand with its extra Bass strings (do they count from '- 5' of so?). I used Roslau Blue when restringing my own S&S 'A' 1914 Hamburger and the covered strings were made by Heller Bass - again on Roslau Blue - I also used Roslau Blue on the 1854 Fortepiano by Emerich Betsy of Vienna - again Greger Heller wound its Bass strings on Roslau Blue. Was this all a mistake on my part - or should I have taken advice on the best string for the purpose?       Michael    UK

Original Message------

Michael,
This is not a "my brand is better than your brand" argument, it is about a better understanding of scaling, and how to use available materials to produce better results on bass scaling.
Read the article.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Hi Michael:

No, it is not an argument against Roslau or Mapes.  They both make excellent wire, and I have used each of them restringing in the past.  They can both give good results - I have never argued otherwise.  No doubt your S & S A is a fine sounding instrument.  

With hybrid stringing and Paulello wire of any 5 types, it is simply a new ballgame.  Hybrid scaling allows you to do some things that you otherwise would not be able to do, and expands our options.  It is additive to what we already do, so we get to have our cake and eat it too.  It allows me to consider a broader range of aesthetics of piano tone than before.  It gives a beautiful sound with more color than I hear in the other wires.  

None of this makes the other brands bad.  Paulello wire allows us to do some things better.  

Heller makes great bass strings.  My last piano was a Steinway L where I installed Heller made Paulello nickel plated soft iron wraps on Paulello core wire of more than one type.  It's a different sound than copper, but I loved it.

As for your Fortepiano, my work has been limited to "modern" pianos made after 1880 or so, so I am not an expert here.  I will only say that the multiple breaking strength wires by Pure Sound and Paulello were conceived to address the different scaling needs of earlier, lower tension pianos - Type 2, Type 1 Paulello in particular.  It is possible that such wire would have been a better choice.  

Since the Bosey Imperial has been around for a while, it is likely that the bottom (subterranean?) notes were the same as the rest of the wire above it. 

Will



------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-07-2017 07:02
From: Michael Gamble
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

Will - Is this a case 'against' Roslau Blue (as used by most manufacturers on the Continent - certainly S&S) from 1 - 88.?  I'm not sure what Bosendorfer use in their 'Imperial' Concert Grand with its extra Bass strings (do they count from '- 5' of so?). I used Roslau Blue when restringing my own S&S 'A' 1914 Hamburger and the covered strings were made by Heller Bass - again on Roslau Blue - I also used Roslau Blue on the 1854 Fortepiano by Emerich Betsy of Vienna - again Greger Heller wound its Bass strings on Roslau Blue. Was this all a mistake on my part - or should I have taken advice on the best string for the purpose?       Michael    UK

Original Message------

Hi Michael:

No, it is not an argument against Roslau or Mapes.  They both make excellent wire, and I have used each of them restringing in the past.  They can both give good results - I have never argued otherwise.  No doubt your S & S A is a fine sounding instrument.  

With hybrid stringing and Paulello wire of any 5 types, it is simply a new ballgame.  Hybrid scaling allows you to do some things that you otherwise would not be able to do, and expands our options.  It is additive to what we already do, so we get to have our cake and eat it too.  It allows me to consider a broader range of aesthetics of piano tone than before.  It gives a beautiful sound with more color than I hear in the other wires.  

None of this makes the other brands bad.  Paulello wire allows us to do some things better.  

Heller makes great bass strings.  My last piano was a Steinway L where I installed Heller made Paulello nickel plated soft iron wraps on Paulello core wire of more than one type.  It's a different sound than copper, but I loved it.

As for your Fortepiano, my work has been limited to "modern" pianos made after 1880 or so, so I am not an expert here.  I will only say that the multiple breaking strength wires by Pure Sound and Paulello were conceived to address the different scaling needs of earlier, lower tension pianos - Type 2, Type 1 Paulello in particular.  It is possible that such wire would have been a better choice.  

Since the Bosey Imperial has been around for a while, it is likely that the bottom (subterranean?) notes were the same as the rest of the wire above it. 

Will



------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277
------------------------------

Thanks for bringing attention to this Edward,
For the most part I've relied on "A Guide to Restringing" by John W. Travis and used Röslau wire and assorted bass strings. Nothing groundbreaking or anything. Not a lot of stringing going on. I try not to take pianos into the shop and have done some stringing on site. I am not in the position to do controlled experiments like this and would probably not start doing so without a school shop. 
But I am more curious now about such alternatives.


------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 22:41
From: Edward McMorrow
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

Benjamin, Have you investigated the string scale options called "Hybrid Wire Scales"? Paulello type I and O wire can be used in the lowest plain strings with very much improved tone and tuning stability. If you have access to Pure Sound stainless that works really well for notes 21 and 22. Pure Sound wire is no longer in production though.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 16:32
From: Benjamin Sloane
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

This is just a thang nobody followed Steinway on. Hitch pins for double winding strings on treble side of break are another thing. Nobody chewing out Young Chang for that. No #s on percentage of piano manufacturers in the Occident out of business compared to the Orient. Probably would be useless as that the East just buys the name in bankruptcy proceedings.

Don't get me wrong I love the Steinway B. That doesn't mean at the break stability problems don't exist because it was engineered wrong. Baldwin F is great also but could be deficient for the same reason. But we argue about out of production action brackets and out of production action center bushings.
 

------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 14:37
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

Of course by the early 80's they eventually solved all the problems with teflon by encasing it in a metal sleeve (which turned out to be a pretty expensive solution), but by then the damage was done and it was too late to try to save face any longer. Now we have Perma-Free II.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 11:47
From: James Kelly
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

I believe the word "blame" is rather harsh and Joe Pramberger is not with us to defend himself or tell his side of it. From what I know he was a brilliant piano engineer/designer and the Signature series I have worked on are all great pianos.

I know that the Teflon actions became problematic after the actions got into the field but at that time the idea was sound and it seemed like a great innovation. Older Steinways with the verdigris action centers may have driven the search for a better mouse trap sort of speak and I would think more people than just Joe had their input.

There are many examples of "seemed like a good idea" at the time. How about the plastic elbow problems found in several brands of pianos or actions loaded with other plastic parts like jacks. We have also had to deal with flaking center pins in certain brands of pianos. I had a nice Ivers & Pond piano here that was absolutely loaded with plastic action parts.

I think the correct term for Teflon actions is PermaFree . Despite the best testing in a research facility or test lab nothing can re-produce what is in the field . I see some extreme conditions here on the coast. One customer has a Yamaha with a string cover and full Dampp Chaser and keeps the HVAC and humidity in the safe zone- no problems. Another has a Yamaha grand with none of the above , opens windows and doors to smell the ocean breezes- strings rusted like barbed wire and tight action centers wonders why the piano plays bad

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 05:37
From: Benjamin Sloane
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

Esteemed colleagues,

Where did the action center bushings that discouraged all investigation by Steinway in recent past into alternative materials to woods and metals get produced anyway? At the factory?

Did these get made in China? Should we blame outsourcing? Is none other than New York, New York, responsible for this horrendous blunder? 

------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

Okay, we have actually gotten off topic here (I'm not quite sure how that happened...sorry if I contributed to that).

My comment was simply as an example of what CAN happen, not an indictment of it.

On the teflon, I asked David Kirkland if he was aware of the metal encased teflon bushings...he said he was not and wanted a photo...so I sent him this one.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2017 22:58
From: Benjamin Sloane
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

Thanks for bringing attention to this Edward,
For the most part I've relied on "A Guide to Restringing" by John W. Travis and used Röslau wire and assorted bass strings. Nothing groundbreaking or anything. Not a lot of stringing going on. I try not to take pianos into the shop and have done some stringing on site. I am not in the position to do controlled experiments like this and would probably not start doing so without a school shop. 
But I am more curious now about such alternatives.


------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 22:41
From: Edward McMorrow
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

Benjamin, Have you investigated the string scale options called "Hybrid Wire Scales"? Paulello type I and O wire can be used in the lowest plain strings with very much improved tone and tuning stability. If you have access to Pure Sound stainless that works really well for notes 21 and 22. Pure Sound wire is no longer in production though.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 16:32
From: Benjamin Sloane
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

This is just a thang nobody followed Steinway on. Hitch pins for double winding strings on treble side of break are another thing. Nobody chewing out Young Chang for that. No #s on percentage of piano manufacturers in the Occident out of business compared to the Orient. Probably would be useless as that the East just buys the name in bankruptcy proceedings.

Don't get me wrong I love the Steinway B. That doesn't mean at the break stability problems don't exist because it was engineered wrong. Baldwin F is great also but could be deficient for the same reason. But we argue about out of production action brackets and out of production action center bushings.
 

------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 14:37
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

Of course by the early 80's they eventually solved all the problems with teflon by encasing it in a metal sleeve (which turned out to be a pretty expensive solution), but by then the damage was done and it was too late to try to save face any longer. Now we have Perma-Free II.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 11:47
From: James Kelly
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

I believe the word "blame" is rather harsh and Joe Pramberger is not with us to defend himself or tell his side of it. From what I know he was a brilliant piano engineer/designer and the Signature series I have worked on are all great pianos.

I know that the Teflon actions became problematic after the actions got into the field but at that time the idea was sound and it seemed like a great innovation. Older Steinways with the verdigris action centers may have driven the search for a better mouse trap sort of speak and I would think more people than just Joe had their input.

There are many examples of "seemed like a good idea" at the time. How about the plastic elbow problems found in several brands of pianos or actions loaded with other plastic parts like jacks. We have also had to deal with flaking center pins in certain brands of pianos. I had a nice Ivers & Pond piano here that was absolutely loaded with plastic action parts.

I think the correct term for Teflon actions is PermaFree . Despite the best testing in a research facility or test lab nothing can re-produce what is in the field . I see some extreme conditions here on the coast. One customer has a Yamaha with a string cover and full Dampp Chaser and keeps the HVAC and humidity in the safe zone- no problems. Another has a Yamaha grand with none of the above , opens windows and doors to smell the ocean breezes- strings rusted like barbed wire and tight action centers wonders why the piano plays bad

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 05:37
From: Benjamin Sloane
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

Esteemed colleagues,

Where did the action center bushings that discouraged all investigation by Steinway in recent past into alternative materials to woods and metals get produced anyway? At the factory?

Did these get made in China? Should we blame outsourcing? Is none other than New York, New York, responsible for this horrendous blunder? 

------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

Original Message------

Okay, we have actually gotten off topic here (I'm not quite sure how that happened...sorry if I contributed to that).

My comment was simply as an example of what CAN happen, not an indictment of it.

On the teflon, I asked David Kirkland if he was aware of the metal encased teflon bushings...he said he was not and wanted a photo...so I sent him this one.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Hi Chris:

Your question is one worth asking, as I have to deal with it in our very conservative business each time I sell a rebuilding job.  And it is especially pertinent when working on instruments like a Steinway, which has such a defined and well known sound. 

When talking to the Steinway owner, I tell them that it will change the sound in specific ways.  I outline the differences in sound that they should expect to hear.  I talk about the problem areas of the scale, where the most improvement will result.  I tell them that it has more color and purity and transparency.  It will improve the piano in ways that they will be able to hear.  But I also tell them that their instrument will still sound like a Steinway, just better

As my confidence in what the wire can do has increased based on the consistent results I am getting, I promote the wire as a feature that very few other people are prepared to give them - something that separates me from everybody else.  

I don't have much trouble selling this to my customers, and I have never had a customer whose piano has Paulello wire and hybrid scaling be anything but thrilled by the sound.  I do believe in what the wire can bring to any piano, and I think my customers hear that.  

I do little selling these days, but I think it would make any spec piano you have more salable.  

All that said, I think there will still be some people who would prefer their instruments in their originality.  It is for them to decide.  

Will 

------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-07-2017 09:12
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

Does hybrid scaling improve sales or hinder?  Or do customers prefer originality and it's accompanying little imperfections?

The metal casing is new to me. What I was aware of is the second generation teflon bushing, which has ribs. The ribs allow the bushing to be held tight in the wood (no clicks), and to remain dimensionally stable through RH changes. The size of the bushing was increased as well. They also made replacement bushings for the original, smaller bushings, that incorporated the ribs. (For those who haven't seen these bushings, the ribs are similar to fine threads, except they are all round and parallel rather than being in a helix pattern).

I never had any problems with the second generation, nor with the replacement first generation. The major problem was caused by the interaction of the smooth surfaced bushing with the wood, exacerbated by the fact that the bushing was too thin. So the bushing clicked in the wood when the hole in the wood enlarged, and when the wood hole shrank, it was able to bear down on the pin by squeezing the bushing. 

My major complaint was the extreme difficulty of machining the bushing hole to get the right size, meaning tight enough and with the right amount of friction. Using the standard parallel fluted reamers Steinway finally made available, the hole would be exactly the same size as the pin, and would be too tight. Using an intermediate sized reamer (.0005" increments between the standard .001" reamers) resulted in too loose a hole. I found I needed to use the standard reamer, and had to use it while "bearing outward" in all directions a bit to enlarge the hole a wee bit. Not much fun, and not as precise as the method should be for that kind of set up.

WNG has realized that problem, and they provide the necessary gradation of reamer to allow the needed machining to friction spec. And, of course, the WNG solid bushing is held in an RH neutral part, so nothing will change, unlike the wood/teflon interface of the Steinway design.

------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
http://www.artoftuning.com
"We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-07-2017 08:55
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

Okay, we have actually gotten off topic here (I'm not quite sure how that happened...sorry if I contributed to that).

My comment was simply as an example of what CAN happen, not an indictment of it.

On the teflon, I asked David Kirkland if he was aware of the metal encased teflon bushings...he said he was not and wanted a photo...so I sent him this one.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2017 22:58
From: Benjamin Sloane
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

Thanks for bringing attention to this Edward,
For the most part I've relied on "A Guide to Restringing" by John W. Travis and used Röslau wire and assorted bass strings. Nothing groundbreaking or anything. Not a lot of stringing going on. I try not to take pianos into the shop and have done some stringing on site. I am not in the position to do controlled experiments like this and would probably not start doing so without a school shop. 
But I am more curious now about such alternatives.


------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 22:41
From: Edward McMorrow
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

Benjamin, Have you investigated the string scale options called "Hybrid Wire Scales"? Paulello type I and O wire can be used in the lowest plain strings with very much improved tone and tuning stability. If you have access to Pure Sound stainless that works really well for notes 21 and 22. Pure Sound wire is no longer in production though.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 16:32
From: Benjamin Sloane
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

This is just a thang nobody followed Steinway on. Hitch pins for double winding strings on treble side of break are another thing. Nobody chewing out Young Chang for that. No #s on percentage of piano manufacturers in the Occident out of business compared to the Orient. Probably would be useless as that the East just buys the name in bankruptcy proceedings.

Don't get me wrong I love the Steinway B. That doesn't mean at the break stability problems don't exist because it was engineered wrong. Baldwin F is great also but could be deficient for the same reason. But we argue about out of production action brackets and out of production action center bushings.
 

------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 14:37
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

Of course by the early 80's they eventually solved all the problems with teflon by encasing it in a metal sleeve (which turned out to be a pretty expensive solution), but by then the damage was done and it was too late to try to save face any longer. Now we have Perma-Free II.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 11:47
From: James Kelly
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

I believe the word "blame" is rather harsh and Joe Pramberger is not with us to defend himself or tell his side of it. From what I know he was a brilliant piano engineer/designer and the Signature series I have worked on are all great pianos.

I know that the Teflon actions became problematic after the actions got into the field but at that time the idea was sound and it seemed like a great innovation. Older Steinways with the verdigris action centers may have driven the search for a better mouse trap sort of speak and I would think more people than just Joe had their input.

There are many examples of "seemed like a good idea" at the time. How about the plastic elbow problems found in several brands of pianos or actions loaded with other plastic parts like jacks. We have also had to deal with flaking center pins in certain brands of pianos. I had a nice Ivers & Pond piano here that was absolutely loaded with plastic action parts.

I think the correct term for Teflon actions is PermaFree . Despite the best testing in a research facility or test lab nothing can re-produce what is in the field . I see some extreme conditions here on the coast. One customer has a Yamaha with a string cover and full Dampp Chaser and keeps the HVAC and humidity in the safe zone- no problems. Another has a Yamaha grand with none of the above , opens windows and doors to smell the ocean breezes- strings rusted like barbed wire and tight action centers wonders why the piano plays bad

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 05:37
From: Benjamin Sloane
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

Esteemed colleagues,

Where did the action center bushings that discouraged all investigation by Steinway in recent past into alternative materials to woods and metals get produced anyway? At the factory?

Did these get made in China? Should we blame outsourcing? Is none other than New York, New York, responsible for this horrendous blunder? 

------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

Fred,
As per your last paragraph, do we distinguish between 'reamer' and 'burnisher'? If so, which do we consider the WNG tool to be?

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-07-2017 17:40
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

The metal casing is new to me. What I was aware of is the second generation teflon bushing, which has ribs. The ribs allow the bushing to be held tight in the wood (no clicks), and to remain dimensionally stable through RH changes. The size of the bushing was increased as well. They also made replacement bushings for the original, smaller bushings, that incorporated the ribs. (For those who haven't seen these bushings, the ribs are similar to fine threads, except they are all round and parallel rather than being in a helix pattern).

I never had any problems with the second generation, nor with the replacement first generation. The major problem was caused by the interaction of the smooth surfaced bushing with the wood, exacerbated by the fact that the bushing was too thin. So the bushing clicked in the wood when the hole in the wood enlarged, and when the wood hole shrank, it was able to bear down on the pin by squeezing the bushing. 

My major complaint was the extreme difficulty of machining the bushing hole to get the right size, meaning tight enough and with the right amount of friction. Using the standard parallel fluted reamers Steinway finally made available, the hole would be exactly the same size as the pin, and would be too tight. Using an intermediate sized reamer (.0005" increments between the standard .001" reamers) resulted in too loose a hole. I found I needed to use the standard reamer, and had to use it while "bearing outward" in all directions a bit to enlarge the hole a wee bit. Not much fun, and not as precise as the method should be for that kind of set up.

WNG has realized that problem, and they provide the necessary gradation of reamer to allow the needed machining to friction spec. And, of course, the WNG solid bushing is held in an RH neutral part, so nothing will change, unlike the wood/teflon interface of the Steinway design.

------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
http://www.artoftuning.com
"We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-07-2017 08:55
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

Okay, we have actually gotten off topic here (I'm not quite sure how that happened...sorry if I contributed to that).

My comment was simply as an example of what CAN happen, not an indictment of it.

On the teflon, I asked David Kirkland if he was aware of the metal encased teflon bushings...he said he was not and wanted a photo...so I sent him this one.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2017 22:58
From: Benjamin Sloane
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

Thanks for bringing attention to this Edward,
For the most part I've relied on "A Guide to Restringing" by John W. Travis and used Röslau wire and assorted bass strings. Nothing groundbreaking or anything. Not a lot of stringing going on. I try not to take pianos into the shop and have done some stringing on site. I am not in the position to do controlled experiments like this and would probably not start doing so without a school shop. 
But I am more curious now about such alternatives.


------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 22:41
From: Edward McMorrow
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

Benjamin, Have you investigated the string scale options called "Hybrid Wire Scales"? Paulello type I and O wire can be used in the lowest plain strings with very much improved tone and tuning stability. If you have access to Pure Sound stainless that works really well for notes 21 and 22. Pure Sound wire is no longer in production though.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 16:32
From: Benjamin Sloane
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

This is just a thang nobody followed Steinway on. Hitch pins for double winding strings on treble side of break are another thing. Nobody chewing out Young Chang for that. No #s on percentage of piano manufacturers in the Occident out of business compared to the Orient. Probably would be useless as that the East just buys the name in bankruptcy proceedings.

Don't get me wrong I love the Steinway B. That doesn't mean at the break stability problems don't exist because it was engineered wrong. Baldwin F is great also but could be deficient for the same reason. But we argue about out of production action brackets and out of production action center bushings.
 

------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 14:37
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

Of course by the early 80's they eventually solved all the problems with teflon by encasing it in a metal sleeve (which turned out to be a pretty expensive solution), but by then the damage was done and it was too late to try to save face any longer. Now we have Perma-Free II.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 11:47
From: James Kelly
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

I believe the word "blame" is rather harsh and Joe Pramberger is not with us to defend himself or tell his side of it. From what I know he was a brilliant piano engineer/designer and the Signature series I have worked on are all great pianos.

I know that the Teflon actions became problematic after the actions got into the field but at that time the idea was sound and it seemed like a great innovation. Older Steinways with the verdigris action centers may have driven the search for a better mouse trap sort of speak and I would think more people than just Joe had their input.

There are many examples of "seemed like a good idea" at the time. How about the plastic elbow problems found in several brands of pianos or actions loaded with other plastic parts like jacks. We have also had to deal with flaking center pins in certain brands of pianos. I had a nice Ivers & Pond piano here that was absolutely loaded with plastic action parts.

I think the correct term for Teflon actions is PermaFree . Despite the best testing in a research facility or test lab nothing can re-produce what is in the field . I see some extreme conditions here on the coast. One customer has a Yamaha with a string cover and full Dampp Chaser and keeps the HVAC and humidity in the safe zone- no problems. Another has a Yamaha grand with none of the above , opens windows and doors to smell the ocean breezes- strings rusted like barbed wire and tight action centers wonders why the piano plays bad

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 05:37
From: Benjamin Sloane
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

Esteemed colleagues,

Where did the action center bushings that discouraged all investigation by Steinway in recent past into alternative materials to woods and metals get produced anyway? At the factory?

Did these get made in China? Should we blame outsourcing? Is none other than New York, New York, responsible for this horrendous blunder? 

------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------

Hi, Peter,

While I remember seeing some of these parts in the Engineering area of
the factory (years ago), I do not ever actually remember seeing them in
the field...could be wrong about that; but cannot presently remember.

There were other manufacturers (Bluthner, I believe) who were also
trying the same/similar solutions; and this might have been an S&S
attempt to adapt this particularly one (which I _have_ definitely seen
in production pianos) to their purposes.

It's probably important to remember that when all of this stuff was "the
latest and greatest", there were supply problems in virtually all areas
of piano-making. Many makers were trying any number of absurd (in
retrospect) solutions...some worked (or, rather, worked well-enough)
that many were duped into accepting them. Others, like this approach to
stabilizing action centers, pretty well crashed and burned...even if the
underlying problems were equally intransigent makers and technicians;
and there was nothing really wrong with the approach, at all.

Kind regards.

Horace

On 4/7/2017 5:55 AM, Peter Grey via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login.
>
> Okay, we have actually gotten off topic here (I'm not quite sure how that happened...sorry if I contributed to that).
>
> My comment was simply as an example of what CAN happen, not an indictment of it.
>
> On the teflon, I asked David Kirkland if he was aware of the metal encased teflon bushings...he said he was not and wanted a photo...so I sent him this one.
>
> Pwg
>
> ------------------------------
> Peter Grey
> Stratham NH
> 603-686-2395
> pianodoctor57@gmail.com
> ------------------------------
> -------------------------------------------
> Original Message:
> Sent: 04-06-2017 22:58
> From: Benjamin Sloane
> Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins
>
> Thanks for bringing attention to this Edward,
> For the most part I've relied on "A Guide to Restringing" by John W. Travis and used Rslau wire and assorted bass strings. Nothing groundbreaking or anything. Not a lot of stringing going on. I try not to take pianos into the shop and have done some stringing on site. I am not in the position to do controlled experiments like this and would probably not start doing so without a school shop.
> But I am more curious now about such alternatives.
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Benjamin Sloane
> Cincinnati OH
> 513-257-8480
> ------------------------------
> -------------------------------------------
> Original Message:
> Sent: 04-05-2017 22:41
> From: Edward McMorrow
> Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins
>
> Benjamin, Have you investigated the string scale options called "Hybrid Wire Scales"? Paulello type I and O wire can be used in the lowest plain strings with very much improved tone and tuning stability. If you have access to Pure Sound stainless that works really well for notes 21 and 22. Pure Sound wire is no longer in production though.
>
> ------------------------------
> Edward McMorrow
> Edmonds WA
> 425-299-3431
> ------------------------------
> -------------------------------------------
> Original Message:
> Sent: 04-05-2017 16:32
> From: Benjamin Sloane
> Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins
>
> This is just a thang nobody followed Steinway on. Hitch pins for double winding strings on treble side of break are another thing. Nobody chewing out Young Chang for that. No #s on percentage of piano manufacturers in the Occident out of business compared to the Orient. Probably would be useless as that the East just buys the name in bankruptcy proceedings.
>
> Don't get me wrong I love the Steinway B. That doesn't mean at the break stability problems don't exist because it was engineered wrong. Baldwin F is great also but could be deficient for the same reason. But we argue about out of production action brackets and out of production action center bushings.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Benjamin Sloane
> Cincinnati OH
> 513-257-8480
> ------------------------------
> -------------------------------------------
> Original Message:
> Sent: 04-05-2017 14:37
> From: Peter Grey
> Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins
>
> Of course by the early 80's they eventually solved all the problems with teflon by encasing it in a metal sleeve (which turned out to be a pretty expensive solution), but by then the damage was done and it was too late to try to save face any longer. Now we have Perma-Free II.
>
> Pwg
>
> ------------------------------
> Peter Grey
> Stratham NH
> 603-686-2395
> pianodoctor57@gmail.com
> ------------------------------
> -------------------------------------------
> Original Message:
> Sent: 04-05-2017 11:47
> From: James Kelly
> Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins
>
> I believe the word "blame" is rather harsh and Joe Pramberger is not with us to defend himself or tell his side of it. From what I know he was a brilliant piano engineer/designer and the Signature series I have worked on are all great pianos.
>
> I know that the Teflon actions became problematic after the actions got into the field but at that time the idea was sound and it seemed like a great innovation. Older Steinways with the verdigris action centers may have driven the search for a better mouse trap sort of speak and I would think more people than just Joe had their input.
>
> There are many examples of "seemed like a good idea" at the time. How about the plastic elbow problems found in several brands of pianos or actions loaded with other plastic parts like jacks. We have also had to deal with flaking center pins in certain brands of pianos. I had a nice Ivers & Pond piano here that was absolutely loaded with plastic action parts.
>
> I think the correct term for Teflon actions is PermaFree . Despite the best testing in a research facility or test lab nothing can re-produce what is in the field . I see some extreme conditions here on the coast. One customer has a Yamaha with a string cover and full Dampp Chaser and keeps the HVAC and humidity in the safe zone- no problems. Another has a Yamaha grand with none of the above , opens windows and doors to smell the ocean breezes- strings rusted like barbed wire and tight action centers wonders why the piano plays bad
>
> ------------------------------
> James Kelly
> Pawleys Island SC
> 843-325-4357
> ------------------------------
> -------------------------------------------
> Original Message:
> Sent: 04-05-2017 05:37
> From: Benjamin Sloane
> Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins
>
> Esteemed colleagues,
>
> Where did the action center bushings that discouraged all investigation by Steinway in recent past into alternative materials to woods and metals get produced anyway? At the factory?
>
> Did these get made in China? Should we blame outsourcing? Is none other than New York, New York, responsible for this horrendous blunder?
>
> ------------------------------
> Benjamin Sloane
> Cincinnati OH
> 513-257-8480
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
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>
>
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>


Original Message------

Okay, we have actually gotten off topic here (I'm not quite sure how that happened...sorry if I contributed to that).

My comment was simply as an example of what CAN happen, not an indictment of it.

On the teflon, I asked David Kirkland if he was aware of the metal encased teflon bushings...he said he was not and wanted a photo...so I sent him this one.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

The story I was told was that two D's were made with these things (presumably test pianos) and that they were considered a complete success. However,  the timing (being the end of the teflon debacle) was bad and it was felt that Steinway could not recover from it with yet another teflon iteration. Plus I guess the decision had been made already to go to PFII cloth bushings. And the cost was prohibitive. (As I recall, Joe Morocco was the source of this story).

Anyway, when they got replaced along with hammers, I grabbed a couple for the sake of history. They occupy a spot in one of my tool drawers.

I cannot guarantee the veracity of this information, just repeating what I was told.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-07-2017 20:49
From: Horace Greeley
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

Hi, Peter,

While I remember seeing some of these parts in the Engineering area of
the factory (years ago), I do not ever actually remember seeing them in
the field...could be wrong about that; but cannot presently remember.

There were other manufacturers (Bluthner, I believe) who were also
trying the same/similar solutions; and this might have been an S&S
attempt to adapt this particularly one (which I _have_ definitely seen
in production pianos) to their purposes.

It's probably important to remember that when all of this stuff was "the
latest and greatest", there were supply problems in virtually all areas
of piano-making. Many makers were trying any number of absurd (in
retrospect) solutions...some worked (or, rather, worked well-enough)
that many were duped into accepting them. Others, like this approach to
stabilizing action centers, pretty well crashed and burned...even if the
underlying problems were equally intransigent makers and technicians;
and there was nothing really wrong with the approach, at all.

Kind regards.

Horace

On 4/7/2017 5:55 AM, Peter Grey via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login.
>
> Okay, we have actually gotten off topic here (I'm not quite sure how that happened...sorry if I contributed to that).
>
> My comment was simply as an example of what CAN happen, not an indictment of it.
>
> On the teflon, I asked David Kirkland if he was aware of the metal encased teflon bushings...he said he was not and wanted a photo...so I sent him this one.
>
> Pwg
>
> ------------------------------
> Peter Grey
> Stratham NH
> 603-686-2395
> pianodoctor57@gmail.com
> ------------------------------
> -------------------------------------------
> Original Message:
> Sent: 04-06-2017 22:58
> From: Benjamin Sloane
> Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins
>
> Thanks for bringing attention to this Edward,
> For the most part I've relied on "A Guide to Restringing" by John W. Travis and used Rslau wire and assorted bass strings. Nothing groundbreaking or anything. Not a lot of stringing going on. I try not to take pianos into the shop and have done some stringing on site. I am not in the position to do controlled experiments like this and would probably not start doing so without a school shop.
> But I am more curious now about such alternatives.
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Benjamin Sloane
> Cincinnati OH
> 513-257-8480
> ------------------------------
> -------------------------------------------
> Original Message:
> Sent: 04-05-2017 22:41
> From: Edward McMorrow
> Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins
>
> Benjamin, Have you investigated the string scale options called "Hybrid Wire Scales"? Paulello type I and O wire can be used in the lowest plain strings with very much improved tone and tuning stability. If you have access to Pure Sound stainless that works really well for notes 21 and 22. Pure Sound wire is no longer in production though.
>
> ------------------------------
> Edward McMorrow
> Edmonds WA
> 425-299-3431
> ------------------------------
> -------------------------------------------
> Original Message:
> Sent: 04-05-2017 16:32
> From: Benjamin Sloane
> Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins
>
> This is just a thang nobody followed Steinway on. Hitch pins for double winding strings on treble side of break are another thing. Nobody chewing out Young Chang for that. No #s on percentage of piano manufacturers in the Occident out of business compared to the Orient. Probably would be useless as that the East just buys the name in bankruptcy proceedings.
>
> Don't get me wrong I love the Steinway B. That doesn't mean at the break stability problems don't exist because it was engineered wrong. Baldwin F is great also but could be deficient for the same reason. But we argue about out of production action brackets and out of production action center bushings.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Benjamin Sloane
> Cincinnati OH
> 513-257-8480
> ------------------------------
> -------------------------------------------
> Original Message:
> Sent: 04-05-2017 14:37
> From: Peter Grey
> Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins
>
> Of course by the early 80's they eventually solved all the problems with teflon by encasing it in a metal sleeve (which turned out to be a pretty expensive solution), but by then the damage was done and it was too late to try to save face any longer. Now we have Perma-Free II.
>
> Pwg
>
> ------------------------------
> Peter Grey
> Stratham NH
> 603-686-2395
> pianodoctor57@gmail.com
> ------------------------------
> -------------------------------------------
> Original Message:
> Sent: 04-05-2017 11:47
> From: James Kelly
> Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins
>
> I believe the word "blame" is rather harsh and Joe Pramberger is not with us to defend himself or tell his side of it. From what I know he was a brilliant piano engineer/designer and the Signature series I have worked on are all great pianos.
>
> I know that the Teflon actions became problematic after the actions got into the field but at that time the idea was sound and it seemed like a great innovation. Older Steinways with the verdigris action centers may have driven the search for a better mouse trap sort of speak and I would think more people than just Joe had their input.
>
> There are many examples of "seemed like a good idea" at the time. How about the plastic elbow problems found in several brands of pianos or actions loaded with other plastic parts like jacks. We have also had to deal with flaking center pins in certain brands of pianos. I had a nice Ivers & Pond piano here that was absolutely loaded with plastic action parts.
>
> I think the correct term for Teflon actions is PermaFree . Despite the best testing in a research facility or test lab nothing can re-produce what is in the field . I see some extreme conditions here on the coast. One customer has a Yamaha with a string cover and full Dampp Chaser and keeps the HVAC and humidity in the safe zone- no problems. Another has a Yamaha grand with none of the above , opens windows and doors to smell the ocean breezes- strings rusted like barbed wire and tight action centers wonders why the piano plays bad
>
> ------------------------------
> James Kelly
> Pawleys Island SC
> 843-325-4357
> ------------------------------
> -------------------------------------------
> Original Message:
> Sent: 04-05-2017 05:37
> From: Benjamin Sloane
> Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins
>
> Esteemed colleagues,
>
> Where did the action center bushings that discouraged all investigation by Steinway in recent past into alternative materials to woods and metals get produced anyway? At the factory?
>
> Did these get made in China? Should we blame outsourcing? Is none other than New York, New York, responsible for this horrendous blunder?
>
> ------------------------------
> Benjamin Sloane
> Cincinnati OH
> 513-257-8480
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Reply to Sender : http://my.ptg.org/eGroups/PostReply/?GroupId=43&SenderKey=9e630203-91a1-491d-8c04-f5c286672e79&MID=673649&MDATE=756%253c45945%253c&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved
>
> Reply to Discussion : http://my.ptg.org/eGroups/PostReply/?GroupId=43&MID=673649&MDATE=756%253c45945%253c&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved
>
>
> To Download the attachment(s) click on the link below:
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> (if the link doesn't work, copy and paste it into your web browser)
> -------------------------------------------
>
>
> You are subscribed to "Pianotech" as hgreeley@sonic.net. To change your subscriptions, go to http://my.ptg.org/preferences?section=Subscriptions&MDATE=756%253c45945%253c&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved. To unsubscribe from this community discussion, go to http://my.ptg.org/HigherLogic/eGroups/Unsubscribe.aspx?UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved&GroupKey=2bb4ebe8-4dba-4640-ae67-111903beaddf.
>

I don't think encasing the teflon bushing in a metal sleeve would eliminate problems. It might reduce the tightness that falling humidity brought, but it would still have the looseness/clicks problem rising humidity brings.

If the teflon insert bushing was combined with the laminated wood shank forks like Yamaha, success might have been possible.

From my limited experience and interactions with Joe Pramberger, combined with his public body of work, I am of the opinion he never really grasped how a piano functions. I intensely disliked the tone of every Pramberger/Young Chang I have experienced.

My judgement is not about his person. it is about his professional work.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 14:37
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

Of course by the early 80's they eventually solved all the problems with teflon by encasing it in a metal sleeve (which turned out to be a pretty expensive solution), but by then the damage was done and it was too late to try to save face any longer. Now we have Perma-Free II.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 11:47
From: James Kelly
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

I believe the word "blame" is rather harsh and Joe Pramberger is not with us to defend himself or tell his side of it. From what I know he was a brilliant piano engineer/designer and the Signature series I have worked on are all great pianos.

I know that the Teflon actions became problematic after the actions got into the field but at that time the idea was sound and it seemed like a great innovation. Older Steinways with the verdigris action centers may have driven the search for a better mouse trap sort of speak and I would think more people than just Joe had their input.

There are many examples of "seemed like a good idea" at the time. How about the plastic elbow problems found in several brands of pianos or actions loaded with other plastic parts like jacks. We have also had to deal with flaking center pins in certain brands of pianos. I had a nice Ivers & Pond piano here that was absolutely loaded with plastic action parts.

I think the correct term for Teflon actions is PermaFree . Despite the best testing in a research facility or test lab nothing can re-produce what is in the field . I see some extreme conditions here on the coast. One customer has a Yamaha with a string cover and full Dampp Chaser and keeps the HVAC and humidity in the safe zone- no problems. Another has a Yamaha grand with none of the above , opens windows and doors to smell the ocean breezes- strings rusted like barbed wire and tight action centers wonders why the piano plays bad

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2017 05:37
From: Benjamin Sloane
Subject: Steinway Teflon Action Center Pins

Esteemed colleagues,

Where did the action center bushings that discouraged all investigation by Steinway in recent past into alternative materials to woods and metals get produced anyway? At the factory?

Did these get made in China? Should we blame outsourcing? Is none other than New York, New York, responsible for this horrendous blunder? 

------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
------------------------------