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3-D Printer Action Parts

  • 1.  3-D Printer Action Parts

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-24-2014 05:43

    Has anyone tried using a 3-D printer to make action parts, Papps mutes, or the like?


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    Ron Bergeron, RPT


  • 2.  RE: 3-D Printer Action Parts

    Member
    Posted 05-24-2014 13:01
    I have read that there is now a 4-D printer. Not sure at this point you could build too many piano action parts using 3d or 4d printers but it woul be fun to dabble at it. ------------------------------------------- James Kelly Pawleys Island SC 843-325-4357 -------------------------------------------


  • 3.  RE: 3-D Printer Action Parts

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-24-2014 13:13
    And the 4th dimension is....?

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    Michael Spalding
    Fredonia WI
    262-692-3943262-692-3943
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  • 4.  RE: 3-D Printer Action Parts

    Posted 05-24-2014 13:43
    Michael,

    I'll take a stab at that.

    I'd say beyond the five senses of sight, smell, taste, hearing and touch.

    Not very practical for most :-)

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    kam544@allegiance.tv



  • 5.  RE: 3-D Printer Action Parts

    Posted 05-25-2014 02:21
    All,

    Speaking of taking a stab, and totally unrelated to this thread, I had an interesting call just last week or so.

    Wife said she'd tried out 30 pianos before she settled on the one she had and had bought a few years back. It was the sound she said that made her decision to purchase the one I was about to tune. All of a sudden from the back room where the husband sat, he voiced out, "It will probably take a couple of stabs to get it in tune."

    Now these two pieces of information rolled around in my mind while I was setting up to get to know the piano, and I decided that these two had already done their homework on the internet long ago, and that if I didn't do two passes at a minimum, they would know I wasn't a professional.

    BTW: not that I would have attempted a one pass tuning on a brand new customer. So I was well ahead of the game before I it was revealed to me that they already knew the game.

    Be on guard, folks. The customers are becoming extremely savvy. No more wool being pulled over one's eyes if you want to stay in business.

    Maybe that might be a fourth dimension possibility   :-)

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    kam544@allegiance.tv



  • 6.  RE: 3-D Printer Action Parts

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-26-2014 00:46
    Time.

    ~Mark Schecter




  • 7.  RE: 3-D Printer Action Parts

    Posted 05-25-2014 22:48
    Ron, yes I thought the same thing.  I saw that personal 3-d printers are available for around $300.  I thought the exact same thing....could this be used to make small parts?
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    BD,RPT....FWA
    Fort Wayne IN
    260-417-1298
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  • 8.  RE: 3-D Printer Action Parts

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-26-2014 00:41
    From what I have seen so far, the low cost 3D printers are not super precise
    - the surfaces are not very smooth on the sides, things like that. I am not
    sure if the low cost printers work with ABS, also. I think some of the
    thermoplastics used in these printers are not exactly long lasting and
    strong.

    The mid-range printers (in the $1,500 range) have a finer resolution and
    might be workable.

    The process of creating the 3D CAD drawing can be a bit tricky as well, or I
    should say there is a pretty big learning curve. There are 3D scanners
    also, but I haven't ever investigated them to see how easy they might create
    a pattern of an existing part for making duplicates.

    But I agree, there is good potential for this being a side business for a
    tech-savvy piano technician!

    Don Mannino




  • 9.  RE: 3-D Printer Action Parts

    Posted 05-26-2014 05:57
    3D printers are amazing creatures when you need something quick. When you are looking for reliability and endurance.. well, this is another game altogether.
    While industrial systems can do fine patterns and use a variety of materials, the ones you see for less than a few thousand dollars will usually have a resolution of 10mil (250 microns, or a quarter of a millimeter), which means you will get a pretty rough surface, and will typically work with thermoplastic materials, using heat to met the plastic, as opposed to UV hardening with the industrial ones. The result is a rough surface made of a weak polymer.
    It's nice to play with, but good old REAL materials are still the way to go.

    Having said that, I was toying with the idea of using Okolon for the bearing in the flanges instead of the felt we use. Okolon is a special type of Nylon with properties similar to Teflon - it is a natural low friction polymer, very easy to handle and shape, and has high durability to friction. It will not absorb humidity and will not change over years of use. Has anyone tried them or similar ideas?
        Eran

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    Eran Kaplan
    Rehovot
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  • 10.  RE:3-D Printer Action Parts

    Posted 05-26-2014 08:50

    I've had some success working with 3d printed prototype parts, like action brackets, for unusual actions that were being modified or redesigned. But action parts are a different story.

    As Mr. Mannino mentioned, desktop 3d printer resolution and material is an issue. Another issue would be that the cost of professional class design software capable of generating the solid model CAD files for dimensionally complex part assemblies can be extremely expensive. To say the learning curve for that type of software is steep, is a little bit of an understatement. If you could use, say a PLM software suite like CATIA (at a cost of $50,000+) or even Solidworks ($5k), well enough to design 3d printable action parts that would work, you should probably seriously consider taking up CAD design and Computer Aided Engineering as a profession and relegating tuning pianos to a hobby.

    Then there is the issue of orientation of parts to be printed and the creation of support structures within the solid models which involves using other software, which also can get pretty complicated.

    Another thing if you get through all of that and actually come up with a workable design, the cost of printing a part in materials and production time, not including R&D - which is really where you are spending your money, or assembly, and shipping, it would make it so that 1 whippen would cost at least about $50.

    Basically, the concept of 3d printed action parts is a little bit more complicated than one might initially think.

    Enjoy the holiday folks. ☺

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    Richard Cromwell
    Custom Keyboard Design & Fabrication Department Manager
    Pianotek Supply Co.
    Clawson, MI
    1-800-347-3854
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  • 11.  RE: 3-D Printer Action Parts

    Member
    Posted 05-26-2014 14:26
      |   view attached
    It's funny this discussion should come up now, as I just recently purchased one of these inexpensive DIY models.  3D printers are generally misunderstood as being as easy to use as an inkjet printer.  Like ETDs, they are a tool that can only produce good results in the hands of a skilled user.  I'm still learning to use mine.

    Part of the skill is learning what the limitations of the technology are.  "Banding" is the roughness that is a result of the printing process which lays down 0.2 mm layers of plastic at a time (see attached photo to see what I mean).  All 3D printers produce banding.  There is additional roughness due to the DIY nature of my machine.  If you need something to be accurate down to the 0.001 inch, as is sometimes the case in our line of work, don't look to 3D printing.  I doubt that is even possible with expensive machines.  My printer, so far, has an accuracy of within 0.2 mm, which results in a pretty rough print, but hope to get that number down as I learn to calibrate my machine better.

    The materials that your average joe (like myself) can print in are PLA (Poly Lactic Acid) and ABS (Acrylonytrile butadiene styrene), but there exist technologies to print in other materials.  If you don't want to get your own 3D printer, but want to protype a part or tool in 3D modeling software, there exist 3D printer shops where you can do this (some libraries are offering this too).  You do have to learn how to model objects in 3D software though, and the shops (which offer printing in everything from plastic to ceramic to steel) are pretty expensive.

    There are online forums like Thingiverse.com where you can download 3D designs by others, but you won't find much in the way of professional grade piano parts.

    As for 3D scanners, the technology just isn't there yet for part replication (or so I've read).  A 3D scanner, from what I've read, gets you a rough, "in the ballpark," version of your object.  You then have to go in and (with a lot of 3D modeling skill) clean the part up.

    Hope this was helpful.  Good luck to anyone trying it out!  :)

    Peace,

    Luke



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    Luke Taylor
    Los Angeles CA
    310-386-7014
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  • 12.  RE: 3-D Printer Action Parts

    Posted 05-26-2014 15:18
    Some great information has come to pass because of this thread, with possibly the exception of my own comments.

    Tks to all others.

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    kam544@allegiance.tv