CAUT

Hello Everyone,

A piano professor at Liberty University has a brand new Steinway B in her studio.  She has identified several notes that have a ticking or clicking sound but only when played very loud.  I can hear it slightly, but it bothers her a lot more than me.  Another tech says he can't hear it at all.  It sounds as if it is coming from the key itself, so I am wondering if it might be a loose key lead.  I have never dealt with this issue in the past, so I have 2 questions:

1.  Can you think of something else I might check for, or does my loose key lead sound like a good diagnosis?

2.  How would I tighten up this loose lead?  I do not have those fancy pliers for that purpose, so how would you suggest dealing with this with other standard tools?

Thanks!

------------------------------
David Pritchard
Lynchburg VA
434-841-7735
------------------------------

Have you checked: key upstop rail for tight nuts, cheek block screws, hammer head glue joints, every screwed piece of hardware, keyframe bedding to keybed, all action screws, jack stop felt and clearance in the rep window, backcheck/sostenuto rail clearance, damper lever? 

------------------------------
Gary Bruce, RPT
Bruce Piano Service
Edmond, OK
405-413-TUNE
www.brucepiano.com
------------------------------

Have you checked to see if there is something on the soundboard under the plate ? how about something that may have fallen down under the keys ? keyframe bedding ? loose damper wire screws ?

is it in a certain section of the piano ? 

I had a Feurich grand here that had a buzz sound which turned out to pieces of travelling paper on the hammer flanges that had to be trimmed off. Ticking or clicking sound like something loose

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2015 09:49
From: Gary Bruce
Subject: Ticking/Clicking Sound

Have you checked: key upstop rail for tight nuts, cheek block screws, hammer head glue joints, every screwed piece of hardware, keyframe bedding to keybed, all action screws, jack stop felt and clearance in the rep window, backcheck/sostenuto rail clearance, damper lever? 

------------------------------
Gary Bruce, RPT
Bruce Piano Service
Edmond, OK
405-413-TUNE
www.brucepiano.com
------------------------------

Since you say the clicking is only noticeable at high volume I think Fred is on the right track- again. The tops of the jacks are probably contacting the hammer rail. If that is the case you will wind up putting thicker felt into the jack window. At least that is what I did. Maybe someone else has a more elegant solution.  

------------------------------
Ted Kidwell, RPT
California State University, Sacramento
Capistrano Hall, rm. 153
6000 J Street
Sacramento, CA 95819-6015
916.278.6737

------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-23-2015 14:44
From: James Kelly
Subject: Ticking/Clicking Sound

Have you checked to see if there is something on the soundboard under the plate ? how about something that may have fallen down under the keys ? keyframe bedding ? loose damper wire screws ?

is it in a certain section of the piano ? 

I had a Feurich grand here that had a buzz sound which turned out to pieces of travelling paper on the hammer flanges that had to be trimmed off. Ticking or clicking sound like something loose

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

How about removing the fall board and then playing the keys hard. If the noise is gone it could be sound of keys contacting the bottom of the fall board; too thin felt or some dried glue /hard glue on the felt. Check the inside of the mortises for the front key pins- there could be debris or dried glue. I have also seen cases in which the key pins where a little to high and there was contact between the tip of the key pin and the roof of the mortice.

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-23-2015 14:44
From: James Kelly
Subject: Ticking/Clicking Sound

Have you checked to see if there is something on the soundboard under the plate ? how about something that may have fallen down under the keys ? keyframe bedding ? loose damper wire screws ?

is it in a certain section of the piano ? 

I had a Feurich grand here that had a buzz sound which turned out to pieces of travelling paper on the hammer flanges that had to be trimmed off. Ticking or clicking sound like something loose

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

I have never dealt with this issue in the past

The charmed life.

The loose lead is a good diagnosis, but I don't think that's what it is.  I'd go with 'something else'.  Reason for my assessment is that you say it appears only when played quite loud.  Lead sound tends to show up in the lower dynamic ranges, and would more likely get masked by higher dynamics.  Could be lot's of things, like what Gary has already listed. Or something else.  As for dealing with them, I can't recommend strongly enough getting hold of Mario Igrec's 'Pianos Inside Out'.  Essential for technicians of all levels.  If you already have one, by all means, open it. Page 236.

Also a recent discussion about damper leads and tools on PTG Pianotech

Also, spend some time with her (the teacher... and the piano) to be sure you're both hearing the same thing.  What notes?  Could it be something 'ex'-piano, such as a light fixture?  The other tech didn't hear it, so maybe you could find someone else who can, and spend some time triangulating, to try to track it down before taking the whole piano apart. 
------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
------------------------------

Triangulate by systematically eliminating possible culprits.

For instance, raise the dampers, taking them out of the picture, entirely. Does the noise go away? If not, remove a different possible culprit and repeat the test...sometimes, ad nauseum, till the culprit is exposed.

-----------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

------------------------------

Perhaps there's a loose or thin section of felt on the damper up stop rail, so it only sounds upon louder playing.  To diagnose, first do as Jim suggests and step on pedal while playing. Then pull action and take a look.

Another diagnostic is to switch parts with a note that doesn't exhibit the malady.
------------------------------
Zeno Wood
Brooklyn, NY
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2015 10:47
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Ticking/Clicking Sound

Triangulate by systematically eliminating possible culprits.

For instance, raise the dampers, taking them out of the picture, entirely. Does the noise go away? If not, remove a different possible culprit and repeat the test...sometimes, ad nauseum, till the culprit is exposed.

-----------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

------------------------------

I have had some odd causes for that particular symptom. One that I remember is the rep lever regulation screw against the shank, on a staccato blow. Seems like there was another that had to do with the shank/rep interface, but it isn't coming to me. It required a really brutal blow, so at first I wasn't able to diagnose it because I wasn't reproducing it - until I got the pianist in to show me. Maybe it was the jack top against the bottom of the shank flange. I do remember seeing a little dent, that finally made it clear. 

------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
http://www.artoftuning.com
"We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2015 11:45
From: Zeno Wood
Subject: Ticking/Clicking Sound

Perhaps there's a loose or thin section of felt on the damper up stop rail, so it only sounds upon louder playing.  To diagnose, first do as Jim suggests and step on pedal while playing. Then pull action and take a look.

Another diagnostic is to switch parts with a note that doesn't exhibit the malady.
------------------------------
Zeno Wood
Brooklyn, NY
------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2015 10:47
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Ticking/Clicking Sound

Triangulate by systematically eliminating possible culprits.

For instance, raise the dampers, taking them out of the picture, entirely. Does the noise go away? If not, remove a different possible culprit and repeat the test...sometimes, ad nauseum, till the culprit is exposed.

-----------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

------------------------------

Call me crazy, is it the bottom of the key top hitting the key slip? DAMHIK

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
608-518-2441
928-899-7292
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2015 12:21
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Ticking/Clicking Sound

I have had some odd causes for that particular symptom. One that I remember is the rep lever regulation screw against the shank, on a staccato blow. Seems like there was another that had to do with the shank/rep interface, but it isn't coming to me. It required a really brutal blow, so at first I wasn't able to diagnose it because I wasn't reproducing it - until I got the pianist in to show me. Maybe it was the jack top against the bottom of the shank flange. I do remember seeing a little dent, that finally made it clear. 

------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
http://www.artoftuning.com
"We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2015 11:45
From: Zeno Wood
Subject: Ticking/Clicking Sound

Perhaps there's a loose or thin section of felt on the damper up stop rail, so it only sounds upon louder playing.  To diagnose, first do as Jim suggests and step on pedal while playing. Then pull action and take a look.

Another diagnostic is to switch parts with a note that doesn't exhibit the malady.
------------------------------
Zeno Wood
Brooklyn, NY
------------------------------

Are the keytop stems (in those few notes) still glued on tightly or can you raise them with your fingernail?

Paul.

------------------------------
Paul Brown, RPT
Vancouver, BC Canada
Email: paulbrn@telus.net
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-23-2015 15:34
From: Larry Messerly
Subject: Ticking/Clicking Sound

Call me crazy, is it the bottom of the key top hitting the key slip? DAMHIK

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
608-518-2441
928-899-7292
------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2015 12:21
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Ticking/Clicking Sound

I have had some odd causes for that particular symptom. One that I remember is the rep lever regulation screw against the shank, on a staccato blow. Seems like there was another that had to do with the shank/rep interface, but it isn't coming to me. It required a really brutal blow, so at first I wasn't able to diagnose it because I wasn't reproducing it - until I got the pianist in to show me. Maybe it was the jack top against the bottom of the shank flange. I do remember seeing a little dent, that finally made it clear. 

------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
http://www.artoftuning.com
"We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2015 11:45
From: Zeno Wood
Subject: Ticking/Clicking Sound

Perhaps there's a loose or thin section of felt on the damper up stop rail, so it only sounds upon louder playing.  To diagnose, first do as Jim suggests and step on pedal while playing. Then pull action and take a look.

Another diagnostic is to switch parts with a note that doesn't exhibit the malady.
------------------------------
Zeno Wood
Brooklyn, NY
------------------------------

My memory has become clearer. The piano in question was a Steinway D from 1981. It has the problem endemic to that period, with the hammer rail drilling not being precise. Hence the flanges are not all horizontal, but vary a few degrees, and if you put a straightedge across them, there is a discrepancy of maybe 2 - 3 mm. The jack was hitting the flange itself, and when I removed that hammer from the rail, I could see a small dent. That flange was one of the low ones. Not having much time (recording session), I simply removed a sliver of wood from the flange, and added a front punching under the key. (Actually there were a few doing this). 

The front punchings were rather spongy, and it did take a brutal blow to make the noise, compressing the front punching a lot. The longer term solution was to shim the flanges that were low, adding some gummed paper to the front of the flange. Unfortunately, when the screw was tightened, it overcame that, as the screw head was at the angle. So I also removed some wood from the top of the offending flanges, under where the screw head would bear. I have had to do that to a few Steinways of that vintage, doing it when I replaced the shanks. 

That clicking symptom, though, only happened on the D. Haven't run into it again. 

------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
http://www.artoftuning.com
"We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2015 12:21
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Ticking/Clicking Sound

I have had some odd causes for that particular symptom. One that I remember is the rep lever regulation screw against the shank, on a staccato blow. Seems like there was another that had to do with the shank/rep interface, but it isn't coming to me. It required a really brutal blow, so at first I wasn't able to diagnose it because I wasn't reproducing it - until I got the pianist in to show me. Maybe it was the jack top against the bottom of the shank flange. I do remember seeing a little dent, that finally made it clear. 

------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
http://www.artoftuning.com
"We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2015 11:45
From: Zeno Wood
Subject: Ticking/Clicking Sound

Perhaps there's a loose or thin section of felt on the damper up stop rail, so it only sounds upon louder playing.  To diagnose, first do as Jim suggests and step on pedal while playing. Then pull action and take a look.

Another diagnostic is to switch parts with a note that doesn't exhibit the malady.
------------------------------
Zeno Wood
Brooklyn, NY
------------------------------

Could those keys be hitting the top of the front rail pins?

------------------------------
Brandon Robertson
Gardendale, AL
------------------------------

Hi David,

A piano professor I tune for had the exact same thing on his Steinway B--a knocking sound on a hard blow, in this case, just a couple keys. It was loose key leads. I was thrown at first because it didn't sound like other loose key leads I've dealt with--guess they weren't as loose. I have the fancy-pants Steinway pliers, but it seems like you could swedge it by using some channel locks or some other plier with "some foreign object" between the lead and one side of the tool and squeeze to spread the lead a bit--it shouldn't take much to tighten it up.

------------------------------
Barbara Richmond, RPT
near Peoria, Illinois
------------------------------

I don't know if it's been mentioned this round, but I don't recall that
it ever has at any time in the past, so...

Take the key slowly to half stroke or more, then bottom it hard. This
somewhat separates key noises from top action noises. If the click
happens even when the sound is relatively low, look at the key. If not,
look in the top half. Do it again with the dampers up. Hook the hammer
up to the string and whack the key - damper up, damper down. Process of
elimination.
Ron N

------Original Message------

Hi David,

A piano professor I tune for had the exact same thing on his Steinway B--a knocking sound on a hard blow, in this case, just a couple keys. It was loose key leads. I was thrown at first because it didn't sound like other loose key leads I've dealt with--guess they weren't as loose. I have the fancy-pants Steinway pliers, but it seems like you could swedge it by using some channel locks or some other plier with "some foreign object" between the lead and one side of the tool and squeeze to spread the lead a bit--it shouldn't take much to tighten it up.

------------------------------
Barbara Richmond, RPT
near Peoria, Illinois
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2015 09:38
From: David Pritchard
Subject: Ticking/Clicking Sound

Hello Everyone,

A piano professor at Liberty University has a brand new Steinway B in her studio.  She has identified several notes that have a ticking or clicking sound but only when played very loud.  I can hear it slightly, but it bothers her a lot more than me.  Another tech says he can't hear it at all.  It sounds as if it is coming from the key itself, so I am wondering if it might be a loose key lead.  I have never dealt with this issue in the past, so I have 2 questions:

1.  Can you think of something else I might check for, or does my loose key lead sound like a good diagnosis?

2.  How would I tighten up this loose lead?  I do not have those fancy pliers for that purpose, so how would you suggest dealing with this with other standard tools?

Thanks!

------------------------------
David Pritchard
Lynchburg VA
434-841-7735
------------------------------

Thank you to everyone that gave suggestions about the ticking/clicking sound on the new Steinway B when played at loud volumes. There were about 5 keys that had this issue. I was able to reproduce the sound even with the stack off. It ended up being the little half-round balance rail things that Steinway uses. I swapped out the offending ones with the 5 highest notes and the ticking was gone. The sound was un-noticeable on the 5 highest notes at that point - either they fit better on those balance rail pins or the higher notes masked the noise.

David Pritchard
Lynchburg, VA

------Original Message------

I don't know if it's been mentioned this round, but I don't recall that
it ever has at any time in the past, so...

Take the key slowly to half stroke or more, then bottom it hard. This
somewhat separates key noises from top action noises. If the click
happens even when the sound is relatively low, look at the key. If not,
look in the top half. Do it again with the dampers up. Hook the hammer
up to the string and whack the key - damper up, damper down. Process of
elimination.
Ron N

David -

Ah - Closure. We don't always get that here. Thanks.

"little half-round balance rail things" are: 005048  BALANCE RAIL BEARINGS   (Steinway Parts Catalog)

Who cares if you can actually do the work?  You have to sound like you know what you're talking about.

Good luck.  I'm not just saying that.

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-29-2015 06:46
From: David Pritchard
Subject: Ticking/Clicking Sound

Thank you to everyone that gave suggestions about the ticking/clicking sound on the new Steinway B when played at loud volumes. There were about 5 keys that had this issue. I was able to reproduce the sound even with the stack off. It ended up being the little half-round balance rail things that Steinway uses. I swapped out the offending ones with the 5 highest notes and the ticking was gone. The sound was un-noticeable on the 5 highest notes at that point - either they fit better on those balance rail pins or the higher notes masked the noise.

David Pritchard
Lynchburg, VA

David,

Check the fit of the wooden, cloth-covered bearings that the keys balance on. If they are loose they can click. You can re-size the wooden part with glue-water, same as re-sizing a balance hole. careful not to wick any glue up into the felt, or... 

Mark

------------------------------
Mark Cramer
Brandon MB
204-727-2350
------------------------------

And the WINNER IS.....................Mark Cramer!!!!!

Congratulations!

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-24-2015 10:55
From: Mark Cramer
Subject: Ticking/Clicking Sound

David,

Check the fit of the wooden, cloth-covered bearings that the keys balance on. If they are loose they can click. You can re-size the wooden part with glue-water, same as re-sizing a balance hole. careful not to wick any glue up into the felt, or... 

Mark

------------------------------
Mark Cramer
Brandon MB
204-727-2350
------------------------------

Thank-you Ed,

------------------------------
Mark Cramer
Brandon MB
204-727-2350
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-30-2015 21:09
From: Edward McMorrow
Subject: Ticking/Clicking Sound

And the WINNER IS.....................Mark Cramer!!!!!

Congratulations!

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

Mark,

Just to clarify, Protek makes Protek CLP and ProLube. So are you distinguishing between the two, but calling "ProLube" "Protek?" [CLP being intended for felt, ProLube for metal]

Since the noise is on key release, it seems it had to be a hardness of the felt surface, no? Difficult to imagine either product (applied to the felt) causing that symptom. How do you set up your damper wires vis a vis the bushings, centered or leaning?

------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
http://www.artoftuning.com
"We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-31-2015 12:22
From: Mark Cramer
Subject: Ticking/Clicking Sound

Thank-you Ed,

 

Here is another cause of tick I would like to mention. It is non-related, but was very difficult to solve, and I may have been the cause...

 

I can't begin to describe how subtle this effect was - the pianist/owner could only hear and demonstrate it with a particular musical passage. I simply couldn't hear it, until I held my head in a certain way, then we were both fixated by it.

 

It took three service calls to resolve, partially because this was a very-costly new instrument - I was trouble-shooting with maximum fear, and the least invasive methods possible. Once I was able to provoke the effect on my own, it seemed isolated to the dampers - about a dozen of them throughout the compass.  

 

I tried swapping/comparing neighboring-parts, and every manner of treatment and careful examination of the offending notes imaginable. In the end, replacing the guide-rail bushings seem to resolve the issue - at very least, we've made it ten months tick-free. (pet-owners got that?)

 

As to the cause - I have used pretty much the same routine for pre-servicing, and maintaining damper-systems for many years - sizing guide-rail bushings with a heated broach (Susan Graham?), treating them with CLP or Pro-Tek, and coating damper-wires (removed) with Mc Lube 444. I love this routine, the benefits are long-lasting, and I've never had a concern. 

 

However in this situation I suspect it was the treatment of the guide-rail bushing cloth that caused this effect -  an almost indiscernible tick or buzz, during the key-release, prior to damper/string contact. There was no visible contamination or flaws in the cloth, no signs of singeing, and the bushings weren't glued-in, so no wicking. 

 

Sorry, I don't remember whether I had used CLP or Pro-Tek, and I'm not suggesting there is anything wrong with either product. Only that from here on in, I am only applying friction treatment to the wires.

 

Recently I shared this experience with a concert-technician and mentor who used to advocate applying Pro-Tek to the bushings via the wire. He no longer recommends this, after suspecting similar issues. 

FWIW,

Mark

------------------------------
Mark Cramer
Brandon MB
204-727-2350
------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 08-30-2015 21:09
From: Edward McMorrow
Subject: Ticking/Clicking Sound

And the WINNER IS.....................Mark Cramer!!!!!

Congratulations!

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

------Original Message------

Thank-you Ed,

------------------------------
Mark Cramer
Brandon MB
204-727-2350
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-30-2015 21:09
From: Edward McMorrow
Subject: Ticking/Clicking Sound

And the WINNER IS.....................Mark Cramer!!!!!

Congratulations!

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 08-24-2015 10:55
From: Mark Cramer
Subject: Ticking/Clicking Sound

David,

Check the fit of the wooden, cloth-covered bearings that the keys balance on. If they are loose they can click. You can re-size the wooden part with glue-water, same as re-sizing a balance hole. careful not to wick any glue up into the felt, or... 

Mark

------------------------------
Mark Cramer
Brandon MB
204-727-2350
------------------------------