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Seeking Young Chang Brackets

  • 1.  Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Posted 4 days ago
    My poor customer has waited 3 months for new action brackets for her Young Chang grand. Has anyone an extra set for sale?
    Also, since the supply of these parts is irregular, it seems to me these would be an ideal 3-D printing project. Any thoughts?

    ------------------------------
    Philip Jamison
    Philip Jamison Pianos
    WEST CHESTER PA
    610-696-8449
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Member
    Posted 4 days ago
    Make copies of good ones out of high grade plywood.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Member
    Posted 4 days ago
    Someone with a laser cutter or CNC could bang them out.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 4 days ago
    Except that you need the correct configuration from the new ones, don't you?

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Member
    Posted 4 days ago
    Or jump ship altogether. You could do this using brackets from a discarded old cheap stencil grand, or buy  a frame from WNG or Renner.  That involves other costs, obviously.  I generally save old frames when I design a WNG action.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Posted 4 days ago
    I think Young-Chang had two bracket types for their grands(?)

     





  • 7.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Posted 4 days ago
    Yes, I suppose they could be cut from sheet metal. They would require machining afterward, I suppose, but I assume the castings did, too. I've never tried 3-D printing, but if the design were digitized, they would be available into the distant future. There are various firms that will "print" parts for a reasonable price in various metals and plastics. I'm afraid the supply of new brackets will dry up as Y-C loses interest.






  • 8.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 4 days ago
    All,
    I have extensive CNC machines at my disposal. It would be a simple machining operation if I had an original bracket(s) to copy. The issue is, what is the current cost and availability of the current supply. If I could get an answer from all, I could consider manufacturing them. I suppose my international distributors could have a need for them, especially if the current market dries up.
    Roger Gable

    ------------------------------
    Roger Gable
    Gable Piano
    Everett WA
    425-252-5000
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 4 days ago
    Philip and or Roger, I have a 4 bracket set.

    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 2 days ago
    Steve and all,
    I talked to the machinist yesterday -- we have a machine shop in the next room. We are willing to manufacture the brackets. We will need the help of all who have posted on this thread as I have only replaced one about 15 years ago and don't have any experience with the problems mentioned by Jon and all. The first step is to get a sample to me. Steve, can you send me a spare to copy -- I'll certainly send it back after the bracket is digitized. Also, if anyone can send me a copy of the second bracket -- apparently there are 2 versions -- that would be great. Does anybody know the criterion of these two different brackets, such as year of manufacture or is it a model difference?
    Once digitized, we as a group would need to scrutinize the dimensions and make any modifications as mentioned by various members.
    To make this interesting, I would post a detailed progress report via "How it's Made" type thread to illustrate how a product is reversed engineered and manufactured. This would include all the manushia in the decision making and photos of the CNC machines and how they are set-up and programmed.
    LET'S MAKE THIS A GROUP EFFORT.
    Steve, can you send me a bracket? If so, send it to:
    Gable Piano
    3231 Broadway
    STE F
    Everett, WA 98201
    Because the machinist is retired (at a young age) we believe we could solve this problem in a couple of months with no unforeseen stumbling blocks.


    ------------------------------
    Roger Gable
    Gable Piano
    Everett WA
    425-252-5000
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 2 days ago
    Hi Roger:
    Any idea the cost to manufacture?
    Paul McCloud
    San Diego


    Steve and all,
    I talked to the machinist yesterday -- we have a machine shop in the next room. We are willing to manufacture the brackets. We will need the help of all who have posted on this thread as I have only replaced one about 15 years ago and don't have any experience with the problems mentioned by Jon and all. The first step is to get a sample to me. Steve, can you send me a spare to copy -- I'll certainly send it back after the bracket is digitized. Also, if anyone can send me a copy of the second bracket -- apparently there are 2 versions -- that would be great. Does anybody know the criterion of these two different brackets, such as year of manufacture or is it a model difference?
    Once digitized, we as a group would need to scrutinize the dimensions and make any modifications as mentioned by various members.
    To make this interesting, I would post a detailed progress report via "How it's Made" type thread to illustrate how a product is reversed engineered and manufactured. This would include all the manushia in the decision making and photos of the CNC machines and how they are set-up and programmed.
    LET'S MAKE THIS A GROUP EFFORT.
    Steve, can you send me a bracket? If so, send it to:
    Gable Piano
    3231 Broadway
    STE F
    Everett, WA 98201
    Because the machinist is retired (at a young age) we believe we could solve this problem in a couple of months with no unforeseen stumbling blocks.


    ------------------------------
    Roger Gable
    Gable Piano
    Everett WA
    425-252-5000





  • 12.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 2 days ago
    Paul,
    The set-up cost -- digitizing, jigs and tooling would not be an expense we would charge against this project, only the material (likely aluminum) and the CNC machine run time and load and unload machine processing labor. An armchair guess. About $15 each bracket. Shipping and handling ?. I would not be the person to distribute this product as I'm not set up to process small money sales. Maybe somebody like Schaff, Pianotec, or Supply 88. What would their markup be? Probably 100%.
    Roger
    P.S. I have to leave for a couple of appointments. I won't be back until 1:30 p.m. Pacific time to answer any other questions.

    ------------------------------
    Roger Gable
    Gable Piano
    Everett WA
    425-252-5000
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 2 days ago
    Not to throw a monkey wrench into this project, but would action brackets made for a specific company, like Young Chang, have a copyright? In other words, are you, or anyone else, legally allowed to make them without consent and/or approval of Young Chang?  Would this be the same as Steinway decals?

    Mind you, I'm not against Roger or Dean making action brackets. I just want to make sure they are not gong to get in trouble.

    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Posted 2 days ago
    It would be like aftermarket car parts. As long as they don't put the Young-Chang name or logo on them or represent them as "Genuine YC Parts", I don't see a problem.





  • 15.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 2 days ago

    Philip and Wim,

    Phil is correct. There is nothing unique about an action bracket, just the dimensions. That is not patentable. Just as a universal joint on a car is not patentable.

    Roger

     

     






  • 16.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 2 days ago
    Just remember, there is going to be a limited market for these. Many pianos already fixed under warranty or shortly after.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Posted 2 days ago
    Put me down for 2 sets.





  • 18.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 2 days ago
    Roger. Not to create more work for you, but perhaps a letter to Young Chang telling them what you're doing might be a prudent thing to do.

    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Member
    Posted 2 days ago


     I would agree with Wim and think there should be some legal ruling before taking on a project like this. Young Chang may have design rights, patents, or other legal ownership of the parts in their pianos regardless of where the pianos are sold. Knockoffs abound in the parts business however there are parts that are licensed for reproduction. Not putting the Young Chang name on it may not be enough since it is obviously going to be used in their pianos. The better approach for us as a group may be to petition the company to stockpile these parts so we do not have to wait months for them. They should have a pretty good idea of how many pianos still need brackets because they ask for serial numbers when you order them. At one time this was a warranty issue but it continues to be a problem that rears its ugly head. I went forever without encountering it and all of a sudden had 4 pianos with expanding brackets. It is also quite possible I had some early on before I ever knew it was the issue it is. Every time I come across a YC or other affected brand I check the serial number range and color of the older brackets which is a silver gray.

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 2 days ago
    Here's another offering.  I imaged the brackets (5 bracket set) on my flatbed scanner.  Again the holes on the feet are 3/16".  The three threaded holes are 5 x 0.9 (metric).  Please let me know if there is something I can do to improve on the usefulness of images like this.

    ------------------------------
    Floyd Gadd
    Regina SK
    306-502-9103
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 2 days ago

    Floyd,

    Yes, your input could be useful. Let's see if we can get someone with an original replacement to digitize. If not, maybe alternate methods could bear fruit. Larry, fortunately, the machine shop here is set up for short runs.

    Roger

     






  • 22.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Posted 4 days ago
    10 mm thick aluminium, band saw, drill press and a lot of lubrications during Machining.

    Alexander Brusilovsky




  • 23.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 3 days ago
    Jon,

    Wouldn't that require that you would actually have good brackets from which to make copies? Then you would already have a good set to install, hence no need to find one. That's kind of a moot point. 

    --
    Dave Conte, RPT, CCT
    Dave Conte Piano Works
    817-581-7321

    Picture





  • 24.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Member
    Posted 3 days ago
    Since brackets are scarce, duplicating the two good ones is the option to have some on hand when the pickin's are slim.

    I'd buy a set to have on hand. I wonder if pocket hole screw-downs is viable. Or just a wedge cut out of the front and back edges instead of
    milling for the 'feet'.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 2 days ago
    Our shop's CNC machine could make brackets But I'd need a new example bracket to start with if anyone has one.

    -Dean Reyburn, RPT

    --
    1-888-SOFT-440  or 1-888-763-8440
    Reyburn Piano Service, Inc.
    http://www.cybertuner.com

    Musical masks for piano tuners:

    Reyburn Pianoworks
    Precision retrofit piano keyboards
    http://www.reyburnpianoworks.com






  • 26.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Member
    Posted 4 days ago
    There are two distinct sets/types  of brackets so you need to match the brackets to what is in the piano with the expanding bracket issue. You also may have to drill holes in different locations on the action frame and do a little chisel work to set the replacements brackets as well as purchase longer screws. It seems to be hit or miss on the supply side and often have a long wait after ordering. When you order you need the serial number of the piano you are ordering for. As Jon suggested it is possible to make good copies out of a high grade plywood- after all many old Chickerings have wooden action brackets. Three months seems like a crazy long time to wait and i can't understand why there is not a standing inventory given the scope of the pianos affected not just under the YC name. (wurlitzers, webers and a few other brands have the expanding bracket issue)

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 4 days ago
    I just wanted to say, I replaced a set recently, and it became a big nightmare because the new brackets were a very tight fit on the frame. Consequently, after shoehorning the stack on the frame and screwing it down, I noticed the hammer rail had a slight arch to it. I wondered if it was just my eyes deceiving me. I did some initial regulation, and when I got to the piano, it was way off. Ok, so I turned capstans and made it work. Then I noticed some of the hammers were not spaced properly, and many were missing one string. So, I'm trying to line them up, and well there wasn't enough adjustment left. Ok, so I"ll shim the stop block and that will do. Uhh, nope. Now the shift pedal doesn't work. Hmm, what's going on? So, obviously, there is an alignment problem with the stack such that the hammers are too far to the bass side. I realized that the hammer rail is about 1/4" off. So, I took the action to my shop again, and I filed the holes in the hammer rail into slots so that I could slide them over so the knuckles were directly over the jack tips, and the capstans were again centered under the wippen cushions. That's a lot of filing! 4 holes per bracket for the hammer rail and one hole for the other rail, per bracket. I also had to plug and redrill the existing bracket holes. The original brackets were very tight on each end, and apparently the new brackets were bigger, so it made the brackets force the rails into a curve when I put them on the key frame. This has never happened to me before. So, having major-ly turned capstans, now I had to go the other way to make the action work again. AARGH! I did a ballpark regulation on the bench, and luckily it was pretty close when I finally put it in the piano. Sheesh!
    All to say, when putting new brackets in on the key frame, be sure that everything is lined up as before and that the brackets are free to sit on the frame without being forced into where the old brackets were. You might have to chisel the frame to allow the new brackets to fall into place, and also chisel off the tops of the old bracket holes (splintered) so the feet sit flat on the frame. I know, most of you are like, "Duh! Didn't you know that!", but somehow I never came across this before. Much wasted time and $$$'s for me. Did I mention the piano is on the 20th floor in a high-rise apartment downtown?
    Yeah, having fun. Right?
    Paul McCloud
    inSaneDiego


    James Kelly
    There are two distinct sets/types of brackets so you need to match the brackets to what is in the piano with the expanding bracket issue. You also may have to drill holes in different locations on the action frame and do a little chisel work to set the replacements brackets as well as purchase longer screws. It seems to be hit or miss on the supply side and often have a long wait after ordering. When you order you need the serial number of the piano you are ordering for. As Jon suggested it is possible to make good copies out of a high grade plywood- after all many old Chickerings have wooden action brackets. Three months seems like a crazy long time to wait and i can't understand why there is not a standing inventory given the scope of the pianos affected not just under the YC name. (wurlitzers, webers and a few other brands have the expanding bracket issue)

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357





  • 28.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Member
    Posted 4 days ago

     Sounds like the job ate your lunch and dinner... Every bracket replacement job seems to be different. Measuring the action spread is very important and there was some detailed directions on how to do this entire procedure when it was a warranty repair. I am not sure you will get any directions with the new brackets so beware. i would be happy to post what I have. If you are lucky you will have been able to salvage a whole bracket so you can be sure which of the two sets you need . One piano I did had all of the brackets just crumble they where all so bad. Another thing to be mindful of- the old brackets may not all looked crack. Do not try mixing and matching- swap them all out and mark the old ones with a sharpie as BAD. The old brackets are good to show at a Chapter technical or as paper weights

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 4 days ago
    I still have the instructions from long ago. I did check the action spread. Good advice, thanks. Sometimes you eat an occasional job, and this was one of them.
    Paul


    James Kelly

    Sounds like the job ate your lunch and dinner... Every bracket replacement job seems to be different. Measuring the action spread is very important and there was some detailed directions on how to do this entire procedure when it was a warranty repair. I am not sure you will get any directions with the new brackets so beware. i would be happy to post what I have. If you are lucky you will have been able to salvage a whole bracket so you can be sure which of the two sets you need . One piano I did had all of the brackets just crumble they where all so bad. Another thing to be mindful of- the old brackets may not all looked crack. Do not try mixing and matching- swap them all out and mark the old ones with a sharpie as BAD. The old brackets are good to show at a Chapter technical or as paper weights

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357





  • 30.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Member
    Posted 3 days ago
    Replace the end brackets first with the center brackets still screwed down. This will keep the rails' location. Then replace the center brackets with the end ones fastened down.  I'd pay two to three times the manufacturers price for wooden ones to not have to wait indefinitely.  Fortunately, I rarely ever encounter this. (knock on wood)

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 31.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Member
    Posted 3 days ago
    Wooden replacements can be used until the factory ones arrive.  I would treat the exposed ply's with epoxy or CA to reinforce and then coat all surfaces with shellac.

    A handy upgrade might be to install a capstan on the bracket in front of the repetition rail.
    This would be used to set the spread instead of leaving it open-space or with shims.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 32.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Member
    Posted 3 days ago
      |   view attached
    I drew a picture of what might be made. Square drive pocket hole or pan head screws can be used. I replace action bracket hold-don screws with square drive. So much easier, I wish all action screws were sq. dr.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 33.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Member
    Posted 3 days ago

      I use a tapered drill set to drill any new holes needed for the new brackets. I believe the back feet on the new brackets are on the rear and are also higher so it requires longer screws. I have had to chisel out some of the key frame to position the front foot and also have had to add shims. I am not sold on the idea of square drive screws because not everyone has a square drive in their kit. There will be a time when someone may have to follow you and tighten all the action screws due to changes in the weather and use. If existing action bracket screws are loose it is better to fill and drill the holes. Marking the location of all of the screw holes with an awl can help with re-positioning. Its also not a bad practice to measure the action spread before to see where it is. It is highly likely it will need to be reset

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 34.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 3 days ago
    Here's a set I haven't got installed yet.  Would anybody like to corroborate my measurements?  This is one of the two types of sets.  Maybe somebody can post dimensions for the other.

    Bracket thickness is 11.4 mm along the perimeter.  I can just force the shank of a #19 drill bit into the threaded hole.  I don't have the machine screw size and thread.

    Top three dimensions in photo are 176 mm, 154 mm and 138 mm.


    ------------------------------
    Floyd Gadd
    Regina SK
    306-502-9103
    ------------------------------



  • 35.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 3 days ago
      |   view attached
    Here is a better scan of the dimensions page.

    ------------------------------
    Floyd Gadd
    Regina SK
    306-502-9103
    ------------------------------



  • 36.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Posted 2 days ago
    Nice drawing, Floyd. If it could be done as a CAD file (like.dwg or .dxf) it could be laser cut or 3-D printed. 


    The CAD file is all that is needed to get stuff made. Ever seen thingverse.com?
    Wish I knew more about it!





  • 37.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Member
    Posted 3 days ago
    A square drive tip is imperative to have. I purchased a 6" shaft w/ hex drive for a drill. I cut off the hex portion and angled the end to fit my combo handle.
    I ground the tip to produce a 'ball-end' to accommodate angular drive. Square drive beats Phillips any day and leaves the slotted drive in the dust.

    I get drivers and screws from McFeeley's.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 38.  RE: Seeking Young Chang Brackets

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 3 days ago
    On Amazon they call them square recess drivers. Lots of offerings, nice Klein set.

    Jon, what size do you use for actions?

    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
    ------------------------------