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1961 K&C with Lemac Player Stuck in Reverse

  • 1.  1961 K&C with Lemac Player Stuck in Reverse

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-10-2022 11:18

    Yesterday I serviced a K&C console with a Lemac Player system installed. Not realizing that the brackets were actually hinges, I spent over an hour removing and replacing the player only to realize that it would have just tilted up. See the attached pictures. 

    I didn't disconnect any of the wires, just moved them out of the way. However, when I reinstalled the thing, it's only playing the rolls in reverse! I have no idea what I did or how to fix it. I've learned my lesson to pay better attention next time - but in the mean time, help!



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    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
    Piano Technician / Artisan
    (256) 947-9999
    www.professional-piano-services.com
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  • 2.  RE: 1961 K&C with Lemac Player Stuck in Reverse

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-10-2022 12:02
    Benjamin

    I can't help you, but I can give you this advice if you ever do a player again. Make sure the player system works right before unplugging anything or removing it. Ask the customer to play it for you, and make sure it's working. If you don't do that, and it doesn't work after you leave, the customer will blame you for it. 

    In this case, ask the customer. Maybe that's what was wrong with it, and she assumed you knew how to fix it. 

    Wim





  • 3.  RE: 1961 K&C with Lemac Player Stuck in Reverse

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-10-2022 12:27
    I did have her demonstrate it before I tuned it. That’s how I know it worked correctly before.


    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
    Piano Technician / Artisan
    (256) 947-9999
    www.professional-piano-services.com




  • 4.  RE: 1961 K&C with Lemac Player Stuck in Reverse

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-10-2022 13:06

    Benjamin,

    Back then, our family owned one of those quasi pneumatic/electric player systems. Being an electronic student in high school and college at the time I remember understanding the function of those players, but 60 years later I can't remember the details of its function. Any person troubleshooting esoteric machines such as that would need to take a considerable amount of time analyzing each component to understand its workings. That may require a person with electronic knowledge, but you may be lucky if you find a dislodged pneumatic tube that is falsely sending a re-roll signal to the electronic components.

    Roger



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    Roger Gable RPT
    Gable Piano
    Everett WA
    (425) 252-5000
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  • 5.  RE: 1961 K&C with Lemac Player Stuck in Reverse

    Posted 09-10-2022 13:35
    There are two main issues. It's stuck in reroll and the notes are playing. You'll have to hire a player tech to figure out why the cut out switch is not engaged (notes playing) and why it's in reroll.

    My best advise on these is to stay away from them. I personally do not touch them.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
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  • 6.  RE: 1961 K&C with Lemac Player Stuck in Reverse

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-10-2022 13:47
    I'm sorry, there's a little confusion due to the way I wrote my original post. The roll is only going in reverse. The notes all played previously but are not engaging when the roll is being rewound.

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    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
    Piano Technician / Artisan
    (256) 947-9999
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: 1961 K&C with Lemac Player Stuck in Reverse

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-10-2022 14:47
    Benjamin,
    Now I'm more confused. The notes don't play when being rewound? There are not supposed to play in rewind. Or, what do you mean by "engaging"?
    Roger

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    Roger Gable RPT
    Gable Piano
    Everett WA
    (425) 252-5000
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  • 8.  RE: 1961 K&C with Lemac Player Stuck in Reverse

    Member
    Posted 09-10-2022 14:58
    I think he means it rewinds only. No forward, no play.

    Deb






  • 9.  RE: 1961 K&C with Lemac Player Stuck in Reverse

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-10-2022 18:01
    Yes, what Deb said. Apologies everyone, I’m new to player piano terminology.


    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
    Piano Technician / Artisan
    (256) 947-9999
    www.professional-piano-services.com




  • 10.  RE: 1961 K&C with Lemac Player Stuck in Reverse

    Posted 09-10-2022 16:46
    Have you checked to see if the reroll switch is on? Are the tubes from the tracker bar to signal reroll dislodged at the bar or switch? There might be a "Y" connector loose. The tubes run from the ends of the row of notes to the switch, not the tracking holes further out.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: 1961 K&C with Lemac Player Stuck in Reverse

    Member
    Posted 09-10-2022 22:41
    Contact Louis Gentile in Braintree Massachusetts. He is not in PTG but he has bailed me out several times and is very knowledgeable when it comes to players that use paper rolls. Her services many players in towns north of boston. There is a fellow in my Chapter that I can try to reach out to. Another piano tech here that knows these old players is located in  Greenville. I am not familiar with type of player but the last time I serviced a paper roll player I purchased a copy of the manual from someone on the internet and was able to fix the issue.  Louis can be found by using google . His company is Louis Gentile Piano Service.


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    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
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  • 12.  RE: 1961 K&C with Lemac Player Stuck in Reverse

    Posted 09-10-2022 22:56
    You will fund technical info at this site: player-care.com

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: 1961 K&C with Lemac Player Stuck in Reverse

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-11-2022 00:28

    Thank you all for the suggestions. James, another technician referred me to Louis a few hours ago. I'll give him a call Monday. Jon, I found that website this afternoon and, after almost an hour of searching, found and purchased the correct manual. Going through that I understand better what I'm looking at. Between the manual and help from John Tuttle, who runs the site, I think (hope, pray) I've figured out what the problem is. 

    Of course, further suggestions are still appreciated as I'm not entirely sure what exactly will work. Thanks!



    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
    Piano Technician / Artisan
    (256) 947-9999
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: 1961 K&C with Lemac Player Stuck in Reverse

    Posted 09-11-2022 14:17
    There are two ways for a player system to be placed into reroll. One is to have the switch turned to the 'reroll' position.
    The other is the reroll function itself. Reroll is engaged at the end of the roll when the ports on the tracker bar are exposed to trigger the reroll. These ports (square holes) are at one or both ends of the row of ports.

    If the switch is in 'play' mode; then you have an air leak (dislodged tubing)

    Older players do not have an auto-reroll function because they were not electric or self-propelled. The pianolist (the one pumping the foot pedals) would move the lever to 'reroll' at the end of the roll and continue pumping until the roll went back to the beginning.  It wasn't until electrification made the piano play automatically, then an auto-reroll function was needed or the paper would have been torn away from the core tube. Because the player mechanism didn't know when to stop.  If this happens, a single piece of tape in the center will allow the paper to re-register itself. Do Not tape the length of the paper to the core tube.

    Older players can be retro-fit with auto-reroll but you have to use the end note holes (plug tubing to the valves) as triggers and cut appropriate holes in the paper.  Two holes are needed to insure enough atmosphere to trigger the new reroll valve. Vacuum would also have to be delivered to the new reroll valve.  It's fairly simple mechanics.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
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  • 15.  RE: 1961 K&C with Lemac Player Stuck in Reverse

    Posted 09-11-2022 14:18
    You don't have to be crazy to get involved with players but it helps.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
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  • 16.  RE: 1961 K&C with Lemac Player Stuck in Reverse

    Posted 09-11-2022 14:42
    Another Player tip is to fix the spool ends. Because the spool fittings are spring-loaded, when the paper gets to the end, there is not much to support the spool end (left side). so the distance between the spool ends becomes shorter due to the spring action and the paper curls up at the edges on reroll. There is a fix for this.

    Before you put a roll on. Tap the right end (slotted side) on a hard surface to align the paper edges. Remove the left spool end and place a wrap of tape around the portion that inserts into the cardboard tube core. Insert the spool end into the tube, if it's not tight; install another wrap of tape. Insert the spool end to leave 1~1.5 mm space between the spool end and the paper. This will insure against the paper curling. Give the paper a slight twist to make it tighter to the core, a little chirping is all that's needed.

    Tapping and twisting is good to do before each playing of a roll to insure that there's no slack in the roll that can affect playing.  Tracking will be better too if the paper doesn't wander because it is indexed to the right side.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: 1961 K&C with Lemac Player Stuck in Reverse

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-01-2022 15:08

    Hi all,

    Just wanted to give an update here. I saw the player piano in question this week. As it turns out, the rewind button was functioning just fine but the block that holds the switch got bumped about 1mm. It was held in with a single screw, so rotating it back into position was easy enough. That allowed the switch to disconnect and turn off the rewind feature. 

    Special thanks to Louis Gentil and John Tuttle for their help and advice!



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    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
    Piano Technician / Artisan
    (256) 947-9999
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    ------------------------------