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2 inch tuning pins

  • 1.  2 inch tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-23-2022 22:59
    Hi all,

    I am getting ready to replace the bass strings on a very old Decker Brothers New York semi-concert grand.  Since the old ones were not tight enough to hold the appropriate string tension, I will be replacing with larger ones, assuming the condition of the pinblock allows for this upon closer inspection.  The current tuning pins are size 2 and only 2 inches in length.  The shortest I can find is 2 1/4 inches.  Are there any manufacturers that make 2 inch pins, or should I just put 2 1/4 in and call it a job?

    Thank you for your input!

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    Tim Foster
    New Oxford PA
    (470) 231-6074
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  • 2.  RE: 2 inch tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-24-2022 08:30
    Tim,

    I doubt you will find 2" TP's anywhere. Looks like 2 1/4" is the way to go.  However you'd better check the depth of the holes first just to make sure you've got the space.

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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    Original Message


  • 3.  RE: 2 inch tuning pins

    Posted 10-24-2022 08:54
    You might need the longer pin in case there is an acute angle form the termination to the pin.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: 2 inch tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-24-2022 17:25
    Tim -
    Your original post lacks much by way of detail. 
    - Are you restringing the entire piano?
    - what was the torque in the bass?  the rest of the piano?
    - You should definitely test first as going up in both pin diameter and length could add considerably to the new torque.

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    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    (917) 589-2625
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 5.  RE: 2 inch tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-25-2022 00:26
    Great questions:

    1. Just replacing the bass strings
    2. Torque around 40 in. lbs. counterclockwise
    3. Similar torque up the remainder of the piano, but since the coils had good clearance, I was able to seat them a little further which gave me good torque and I brought all plain wire strings up to pitch. 
    4. I plan on measuring the depth of the existing holes and have both size 3 and 4 TPs on hand.

    I hope this helps give a better snapshot, thanks!

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    Tim Foster
    New Oxford PA
    (470) 231-6074
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    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: 2 inch tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-25-2022 00:38
    Yes, that helps.  You said: "...assuming the condition of the pinblock allows for this upon closer inspection."  What do you see as your options if the block is not so good?  Treat block CA? Rebuild?

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    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    (917) 589-2625
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 7.  RE: 2 inch tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-25-2022 00:42
    CA glue most likely.

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    Tim Foster
    New Oxford PA
    (470) 231-6074
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    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: 2 inch tuning pins

    Posted 10-25-2022 07:15
    Maybe the reason the pins are loose is that they were not deep enough into the block. If the block has the thickness, I'd replace with 2 ⅜" or 2 ½" pins. At least 2 ½" on the single strings, reason being the wire is of a larger diameter and while maintaining the same coil height above the string frame there would be less pin in the block.
    Ream the block accordingly.  The only reason I can think of for a short pin is if they are installed in an exposed pin block.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 9.  RE: 2 inch tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-25-2022 08:18
    Jon, thank you for the info.  Yes, it is an open face block.  It's a very unusual design-- the holes are not drilled all the way through, the bottom of the block is smooth without holes so I need to investigate further how deep, etc.  The top of the block is slightly tilted towards the back, and 88 agraffes.  I'll be talking my time for sure.

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    Tim Foster
    New Oxford PA
    (470) 231-6074
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    Original Message


  • 10.  RE: 2 inch tuning pins

    Posted 10-25-2022 10:02
    Drill a small hole thru the block and check thickness with a wire.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: 2 inch tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-25-2022 11:05

    It didn't occur to me that this might be an open face block, but the 2" pins then make sense.  Also, I'm not sure how much more visual information you can accumulate than by having both the top AND the bottom of the block accessible. 
    Tim - have you removed bass strings yet?  I think it's the general assumption that you are not considering a full rebuild; that you are, to the extent possible, planning to work with the existing structure and components.  
    Can you supply any photos?  How important is maintaining visual consistency?  If tuning pins are looking old and oxidized, putting new pins in the bass will certainly  be different, even if blue (or black).  
    I think there might be a number of reasons for advocating re-use of the existing pins.  
    - Even if you had room to tap deeper, or add length, creating the additional torque at the bottom, it's less than ideal, since you end up allowing the introduction of additional torsion over the length of 'unsupported' pin.
    - I took a moment to peruse my Pierce Atlas (the opportunity for which I thank you).  If this is, in fact, a Decker Bros. (as opposed to a Decker & Sons), the last serial numbers are in 1895.  If this is an original block, I would be very wary of testing its health by driving larger pins, even if properly supported.

    I'd be inclined to lean (redundant, I know) towards using original pins with CA treatment.  
    I'm willing to be tarred for that comment.

    Which reminds me:  has anyone seen that movie yet? Kate Blanchett as a conductor?



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    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    (917) 589-2625
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 12.  RE: 2 inch tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-26-2022 11:25
    Hi David,

    Correct, the customer is not considering a full rebuild.  Here is an amazon link to my saved photos, please let me know if you have any trouble opening the link.  (Decker Brother's photos)  I believe the customer is interested in the visual, but he was also aware that new pins would change the visual somewhat.  I'm open to working with the old pins.  Most of the bass strings are still intact, but three of the 32 broke when I attempted to raise the pitch, which we expected (they broke while still around 100 cents flat).  You make a good point about not testing an original pin block, which it is definitely original (these are really hard to remove, since the block is mortised into the frame).  CA and original pins is still very much on the table.

    Thank you for your thoughts!

    ------------------------------
    Tim Foster
    New Oxford PA
    (470) 231-6074
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 13.  RE: 2 inch tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-26-2022 11:33
    And yes, I believe this piano is from around 1883 or so (serial number 17130).  It's quite beautiful, and still has incredible tone in the plain wires.  I sent the measurements for bass strings to James Arledge.  The owner of this piano is an intermediate player and while he wants it to "sound nice," I think he was more intrigued by the intricate case than anything.  It's not his only piano either.

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    Tim Foster
    New Oxford PA
    (470) 231-6074
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    Original Message


  • 14.  RE: 2 inch tuning pins

    Posted 10-25-2022 13:30
    Since the holes don't go all the way through the block, this may be a good candidate for epoxy consolidation and re-use of the original pins.
    Check with a historic instrument expert like Ken Eschete for an opinion.

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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
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    Original Message


  • 15.  RE: 2 inch tuning pins

    Posted 10-26-2022 10:32
    I treated a Bechstein with an open-face block with cracks along the pin line  and loose-ish pins in the bass. I opted for epoxy treatment and started with drilling small holes between the pins for the epoxy to soak in, Water thin flowed right in. After that cured, I treated again and let cure. Filled with a thickened epoxy and let cure. I mixed gold bronzing powder with the last coat. That was over ten years ago and the pins are holding fine. The small cracks in the top treble struts are maintaining as well. They have it tuned once/yr and it is stable.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 16.  RE: 2 inch tuning pins

    Posted 10-26-2022 10:36
    I had another 'rebuild' on an 1884 Chickering with a strange stepped, segmented blocks. The laminations were starting to separate, so I epoxied and clamped together. Then I swabbed the holes with epoxy and reamed once cured. 20+ years and still doing fine.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 17.  RE: 2 inch tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-26-2022 11:28
    Jon, this is really intriguing, I've never heard of this procedure (I'm still fairly green).  Question: if I would treat with CA glue, would the epoxy option be available later if the CA is unsatisfactory?  Also, can you recommend any good reading on this procedure?

    As you can see, there are some cracks in the bass section on the top (pics link in reply to David).  I don't think they are very deep based on the feel of the pins, but all things considered, not testing the limitations of a 140 year old block may be the best way to go.

    Thanks!

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    Tim Foster
    New Oxford PA
    (470) 231-6074
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 18.  RE: 2 inch tuning pins

    Posted 10-26-2022 12:13
    If you are replacing the bass strings, I'd opt for new pins too. The cracks may only be in the top veneer. Once the pins are removed you can inspect the interior of the holes. Swabbing with CA might be all that is needed. Ream afterwards and the deglaze with a .30 caliber gun barrel brush in a drill.

    Clean the surface after the pins are removed. Fill the crack when the pins are replaced to keep the CA or epoxy from dripping into the holes.
    Maybe you can get by with swabbing the holes with CA , reaming and re-using the same pins but I'd go for larger diameter pins. It all depends on how tight they are now.  New strings with new pins looks real nice.

    I don't know of results from combination treatments, don't know of any writing other than here.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 19.  RE: 2 inch tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-27-2022 12:20
    I was speaking with a very experienced rebuilder today about this issue.  His recommendation was to drill further into the same hole, allowing for a 2 3/8" pin while solving the problem of not driving in a pin with a larger diameter.  Of course, this assumes that there is enough block to do this, which I'm fairly certain is the case.  I'm inclined toward this option.  Thoughts?

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    Tim Foster
    New Oxford PA
    (470) 231-6074
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 20.  RE: 2 inch tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-27-2022 14:34
    Tim, 
    To avoid going around in circles. You should resolve some of the earlier questions.  How thick is the block?
    Without in any way challenging the credentials of this most recent source, I'll point out that you've had input from quite an extensive range of experience.  
    I don't include myself in that category, with regard to rebuilding, though I've been around it and dealing with these type of issues for some time. 
    I'm wary of the newest solution, for two or three reasons, even if the space exists.
    - it has you drilling past the current hole with a bit that is basically the same size. No way you can do that without enlarging it, at least a little.
    - even if you were successful, the new torque would be at the bottom of the pin, leaving considerable length to develop torsional twist.





    Original Message


  • 21.  RE: 2 inch tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-28-2022 09:45
    Yes, I absolutely hear your concerns and have already given them consideration.  I'm not making a final decision yet, but I'm definitely not taking any of the recommendations off the table at this point.   I'll keep you posted on block thickness when I get a chance to take measurements.  Thanks!

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    Tim Foster
    New Oxford PA
    (470) 231-6074
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 22.  RE: 2 inch tuning pins

    Member
    Posted 10-26-2022 14:09
    There are many articles in the PTG journals about CA glues plus previous posts in this forum. I tried looking at your photos and it looked like the tuning pin coils are close to the plate. A torque reading of 40 is too low to expect pins to hold and you should sample all of the As, Cs, random notes to get a feel for things. This should be done with a beam torque wrench and recorded. I see some cracks on the top lamination of the pin block on the first few notes. Before getting too deep in this I would try treating those pins with super thin CA glue and see if the glue bubbles out of the cracks or out of other tuning pin holes. Do the same in other sections like the low tenor, mid range, treble and high treble. If the glue is coming out from other holes you know there is a cracked pin block. The pictures of the underside of the block are blurred so its hard to tell if that is a piece of lamination put there to seal off the pinblock from moisture. Have you removed any of the tuning pins on the strings that broke ? are you sure they are 2" long or is 2 being confused with a pin size of 2 ?

    Is Arledge making a full set of strings or just new ones to replace the ones that broke ?  Your only option beside a new pin block is to treat the block with lots of CA and existing tuning pins or go with epoxy as suggested.  Replacing the tuning pins with larger pins is a huge risk even with support. Cracks will expand all over the block. Replace the broken strings and treat their associated tuning pins with CA. Let the CA fully cure and after breaking the bond test the torque to see what it reads post CA. you should torque test the same pins before treating them


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    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
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    Original Message


  • 23.  RE: 2 inch tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-27-2022 00:55
    I forget why I did it, but I remember shortening several  tuning pins at my belt/disc sander a few years back.  It may have been the case I might just not having the right size on hand.

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    Floyd Gadd RPT
    Regina SK
    (306) 502-9103
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    Original Message


  • 24.  RE: 2 inch tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-27-2022 12:15
    Floyd, that's definitely an option.  In fact, the customer owns a high end machine shop.  He even said he could make tuning pins if necessary, though the easier option for 2" tuning pins would be to cut down 2 1/4" with his machines.

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    Tim Foster
    New Oxford PA
    (470) 231-6074
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    Original Message


  • 25.  RE: 2 inch tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-27-2022 13:14
    This keeps getting more and more interesting.  Interested to see what you/he would come up with vis a vis tuning pin manufacture.

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    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    (917) 589-2625
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 26.  RE: 2 inch tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-27-2022 12:13
    James, thank you for your input.  Arledge is making a full set of strings.  The pins are both size 2 and 2" in length.

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    Tim Foster
    New Oxford PA
    (470) 231-6074
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 27.  RE: 2 inch tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-20-2022 21:37
    Just following up on this discussion: 

    I ended up drilling the hole deeper in the pinblock and I drove in size 3, 2 3/8" tuning pins lubricated lightly with gloss urethane.  The block was in excellent condition.  I installed a full set of Arledge bass strings and finished the final steps today with a fine tuning.  The pins had excellent tightness and the customer is thrilled.  

    On another note, two of the keys were malfunctioning, not allowing the jack to slip and holding the hammer on the string.  Upon closer inspection, the jacks on both keys were broken at the elbow section.  A number of these were replaced at some point in the past--I guess at 140 years this stuff happens.  I removed the wippen from C8 (an original in good condition) and removed the jack.  The customer will take measurements and fabricate new ones with his automated laser cutting equipment.  I'm interested to see how they come out. 

    Thank you all for your help thinking through this.

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    Tim Foster
    New Oxford PA
    (470) 231-6074
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 28.  RE: 2 inch tuning pins

    Posted 12-21-2022 10:39
    Re: Broken jack elbow joints
    When you see multiple jacks repaired or replaced like this, you likely have a situation where the top of the jack is hitting it's cushion before the key bottoms out on the front pin felt. Which is to say the jack elbow is bearing the full force of the keystroke.
    You need to correct this situation -- reduce depth of touch, change felt in rep window, so that even on a very hard blow, the jack still has freedom before it hits the jack cushion.
    I've seen many cases over the years where people replaced all jacks, or even entire reps, only to see the new elbows breaking because they are trapped.

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    Brian Mott RPT
    Madison WI
    (608) 246-0506
    RPT
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    Original Message


  • 29.  RE: 2 inch tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-21-2022 11:40
    Brian, thank you, this is very helpful.

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    Tim Foster
    New Oxford PA
    (470) 231-6074
    ------------------------------

    Original Message