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ACCORDAGE D'UN PIANO DE CONCERT CHICKERING 1880 cordes parallèles

  • 1.  ACCORDAGE D'UN PIANO DE CONCERT CHICKERING 1880 cordes parallèles

    Posted 02-11-2025 06:22

    Bonjour à tous, je suis technicien piano près de Paris donc en France, et je dois bientôt accorder ce piano pour un concert (piano, violoncelle).

    Ce piano est très rare en France, et je me demandais si vous n'auriez pas des conseils à me donner concernant le type d'accord qui lui convient le mieux. Je pense utiliser Cybertuner, pure 12ths ou autre chose comme réglage?

    Merci pour vos réponses.



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    Serge Quintela
    Maisons-Laffitte
    +33 6 11 69 68 56
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  • 2.  RE: ACCORDAGE D'UN PIANO DE CONCERT CHICKERING 1880 cordes parallèles

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-11-2025 07:59

    Yes, CyberTuner using the pure 12th setting would be my choice - as I'm also CyberTuner user. 



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    Patrick Draine RPT
    Billerica MA
    (978) 663-9690
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  • 3.  RE: ACCORDAGE D'UN PIANO DE CONCERT CHICKERING 1880 cordes parallèles

    Posted 02-11-2025 09:24

    Merci beaucoup pour votre réponse Patrick, je suis passé voir ce piano pour valider la possibilité de faire un concert, car il n'est pas en très bon état. J'en ai profité pour faire un échantillonnage avec Chamélon, et je m'aperçois que la courbe dans l'aigu monte très haut (+ de 60c), sauf si je spécifie un piano de plus petite taille (6' 7''), là j'ai 50c.  Quel serait votre choix de réglage pour la taille du piano (Chamelon/Advenced/Size)?  



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    Serge Quintela
    Maisons-Laffitte
    +33 6 11 69 68 56
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  • 4.  RE: ACCORDAGE D'UN PIANO DE CONCERT CHICKERING 1880 cordes parallèles

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-11-2025 09:44

    What is the length of the piano? If the piano has never been restrung I would be a bit concerned about potential string breakage, so stretching as far as 60 cents is quite risky. You can choose a much lower stretch number (perhaps 5?), but I'd start with P12 while lowering the "high treble adjustment" (under tuning style) to pull the stretch for C8 to 40 cents.



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    Patrick Draine RPT
    Billerica MA
    (978) 663-9690
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  • 5.  RE: ACCORDAGE D'UN PIANO DE CONCERT CHICKERING 1880 cordes parallèles

    Posted 02-11-2025 10:00
    Oui, je suis d'accord. Il ressemble à ce piano. Il a déjà été restauré mais il y a longtemps je pense. Mais pour rester à 50 cents, je suis obligé de sélectionner une taille de piano réduite, ce qui est assez inhabituel. Quoi qu'il en soit je vais choisir la prudence, encore merci!


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    Serge Quintela
    Maisons-Laffitte
    www.ipianos.fr
    +33 6 11 69 68 56
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  • 6.  RE: ACCORDAGE D'UN PIANO DE CONCERT CHICKERING 1880 cordes parallèles

    Posted 02-11-2025 10:58
    I specialise in straight strung instruments of this period.

    Please don't use perfect 12th. It's unmusical.

    If you tune it to Kellner with seven perfect fifths in the scale it will sound very beautiful. Nowadays I use Kirnberger III but there is a special way of tuning this in particular to make it work

    If in the tenor region from around A2 to C3 you hear predominantly the 3rd harmonic and no 5th harmonic, the instrument _was_not_ built for equal temperament and the tunings with many perfect fifths work especially well on the harmonic structure of such an instrument.

    The 'cellist will thank you for not using the equal temperament. Equal temperament causes string players to have to compromise.

    Don't be afraid of using maximum stretch in the top treble. You don't want it sounding flat.

    Here's an 1854 straight strung instrument accompanying cello in Kellner https://youtu.be/6SPqHBWGMbE?t=407
    1869 Broadwood in Kirnberger III with cello https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcOiW0VBUtk 

    Equal Temperament and especially perfect 12th is an aberration on this vintage of instrument.

    Best wishes

    David P


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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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    +44 1342 850594





  • 7.  RE: ACCORDAGE D'UN PIANO DE CONCERT CHICKERING 1880 cordes parallèles

    Posted 02-11-2025 11:33

    Bonjour David, merci pour votre réponse, et félicitation! J'ai aussi écouté le concerto de Haydn en D Majeur sur Fazioli, c'est remarquable. Ceci dit, il n'y pas qu'une question de piano, mais aussi de répertoire à mon avis. Pour ce concert, ce ne sera pas du baroque ou du classique, mais plutôt que romantique, post romantique et contemporain. 



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    Serge Quintela
    Maisons-Laffitte
    www.ipianos.fr
    +33 6 11 69 68 56
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  • 8.  RE: ACCORDAGE D'UN PIANO DE CONCERT CHICKERING 1880 cordes parallèles

    Posted 02-11-2025 18:50

    Serge,

    Je suis tellement heureuse de voir des accordeurs de piano de France et d'autres parties du monde nous poser des questions. Google Translate est une bonne chose et nous aide à nous comprendre. N'hésitez pas à poser d'autres questions.

    Cordialement  :-)



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    Patrick Greene
    OWNER
    Knoxville TN
    (865) 384-6582
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  • 9.  RE: ACCORDAGE D'UN PIANO DE CONCERT CHICKERING 1880 cordes parallèles

    Posted 02-11-2025 21:35
    Bonjour Serge

    Pour romantique, post romantique et contemporain

    Chopin 
    https://youtu.be/xwh4Xb1waC0?t=2271 1854 Emerich Betsy (comme Streicher)  avec cordes parallel

    Schumann 
    https://youtu.be/rfqhL7UaB3Y?t=3 1885 Bechstein Model III

    Brahms and Schumann

    Liszt
    https://youtu.be/289iHaTM2f4?t=1851 1859 Broadwood avec Cordes Parallèl
    https://youtu.be/aIVUyu7v48U?t=1915 1885 Bechstein Model III

    Brahms

    Ravel

    Fauré

    Debussy

    Rebecca Clark
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvJIeIXNAYw - un de les premieres concerts avec temperament inegale c2006

    Giovanni Bottesini

    Lily Boulanger

    Florence Price

    Shoenberg

    Tabakov

    Alex Voytenko

    Kapustin

    Carlo Vine

    Gilbert San Pietro di Monte Rosso

    Pour le répertoire romantique, post romantique et contemporain le tempérament inégale est inderdit! Tous ceux qui l'entendent mourront!

    Sérieusement, j'espère que vous aimerez peut-être ces enregistrements et que vous permettrez à vos interprètes de donner la même joie à leur public. Certaines de ces performances sont parmi celles que j'aime le plus.

    Sentiments meilleures

    David P

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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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    +44 1342 850594





  • 10.  RE: ACCORDAGE D'UN PIANO DE CONCERT CHICKERING 1880 cordes parallèles

    Posted 02-12-2025 20:28
    A new recording https://youtu.be/cgWTxNTCmgY demonstrates that Equal Temperament and or P12 tuning is far from obligatory for contemporary - or any - music.

    https://youtu.be/C3w7cgwG6-E?t=1847 might be of particular interest and this concert is with ET saxophone and the 1885 Bechstein tuned in Kirnberger III

    Equal temperament was embraced by piano manufacturers to make Brand instruments glisten so that people worshipped the instrument, bedazzled, rather than reaching further to how well the instrument responded to the music, and made the piano an object for its own sake rather than for the sake of making music. The decline of interest in the piano results from people having tired of the emperor's new clothes. The Emperor needs to get his old clothes out of the cupboard.

    Incidentally, if anyone's a recording nerd, there's a moment https://youtu.be/C3w7cgwG6-E?t=3124 which is a product of recording onto analogue tape and transcribing it.

    At the other end of the spectrum https://youtu.be/cgWTxNTCmgY demonstrates what the tuning can do for the music and I challenge anyone on a conventionally tuned instrument to be able to replicate those recordings.

    Best wishes

    David P






  • 11.  RE: ACCORDAGE D'UN PIANO DE CONCERT CHICKERING 1880 cordes parallèles

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-13-2025 03:31

    Apologies to Serge for the digression. But I have a hard time wrapping my head around the notion of a wind instrument designed to play in equal temperament as mentioned by David above. Winds are married to their internal overtones which will for the main be pure intervals. It seems that such an instrument would be inherently always out of tune with itself. Of course they can be played within the ET context if they are playing with a piano tuned equally, but that is more about how the musician adjusts rather than the design and construction of the instrument. I've yet to hear from a wind instrument builder on the subject. A lot of players have conflicting opinions. Would like to know more about that. It's a wavy world out there. 



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    Steven Rosenthal RPT
    Honolulu HI
    (808) 521-7129
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  • 12.  RE: ACCORDAGE D'UN PIANO DE CONCERT CHICKERING 1880 cordes parallèles

    Posted 02-13-2025 07:55
    Dear Steven

    The recording is there for you and anyone to hear https://youtu.be/C3w7cgwG6-E and make up their minds as to whether electronic exactitude equal temperament is superior.

    Double bass players love my style of tuning and cellists too, and pitch on the sax is fluid enough to cope. 

    In Greece last year piano in Kirnberger III unequal temperament accompanied and was played in masterclasses https://kalamatamusicdays.com/eng/upcoming-masterclasses/ to satisfaction of all involved.

    Whilst many of the recordings, which I hope that people are enjoying, are with cross-strung instruments on which the case for unequal temperaments is audible this thread in particular is about the 19th century straight strung instruments and which respond well to the series of tunings with perfect fifths such as Valotti, which is not strong enough and  cannot be heard, with 6 perfect fifths and Kellner or Kirnberger III using 7 perfect fifths. Although it can be tuned better with special methodology, Kellner can be tuned satisfactorily with standard ETDs although will give varied results whilst Kirnberger III needs my technique.

    Deviation of Kellner is within 1/9 of a tone and thus will give the aural differences between major and minor semitones but within lipping deviations of wind instruments. 

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhc-dAJO2bA tests flute and cello with 1869 Broadwood straight strung cottage grand tuned to Kirnberger III.

    Best wishes

    David P

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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594