CAUT

Hi Alan,

My thought is, if the piano is not going to be at that pitch / temperament permanently, the artist needs to pay for a special request tuning accordingly, then pay for it to be tuned back so others can use it normally. Practically, this means a bare minimum of two tunings to fulfill this request. Maybe as much as four - one to get it to the new pitch / temperament, one to stabilize it, one to return it to standard, and one more to stabilize it. 

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
Piano Technician / Artisan
(256) 947-9999
www.professional-piano-services.com
------------------------------

I agree with your take on this, Ben, and would add that a round trip there and back again would require a MINIMUM of four tunings total, often more than that. 

Also, considerable time may be needed to realize the tuning system based on what information the composer or performer provides. In my experience, all too often this information is inadequate, a problem stemming from the fact that the party making the request does not know some basic acoustics, and/or what inharmonicity is, and/or does not realize that all pianos are not tuned the same, and/or is unfamiliar with Pythagoras.

Back question central to the OP, do you have pianos under your care for which people have requested alternative tunings for performance and/or recordings? And if so, what is the policy in this connection?

Best,

Alan

I agree with your take on this, Ben, and would add that a round trip there and back again would require a MINIMUM of four tunings total, often more than that. 

Also, considerable time may be needed to realize the tuning system based on what information the composer or performer provides. In my experience, all too often this information is inadequate, a problem stemming from the fact that the party making the request does not know some basic acoustics, and/or what inharmonicity is, and/or does not realize that all pianos are not tuned the same, and/or is unfamiliar with Pythagoras.

Back question central to the OP, do you have pianos under your care for which people have requested alternative tunings for performance and/or recordings? And if so, what is the policy in this connection?

Best,

Alan

Hi Alan,

My thought is, if the piano is not going to be at that pitch / temperament permanently, the artist needs to pay for a special request tuning accordingly, then pay for it to be tuned back so others can use it normally. Practically, this means a bare minimum of two tunings to fulfill this request. Maybe as much as four - one to get it to the new pitch / temperament, one to stabilize it, one to return it to standard, and one more to stabilize it. 

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
Piano Technician / Artisan
(256) 947-9999
www.professional-piano-services.com

Hi, Alan.

While we don't have a policy here, it is becoming more requested, as is extended piano prep and it falls within the document I am in the process of creating, a draft of which I shared with you. If you do come up with a policy, would you mind sharing it with me so I can include that as part of the new policy document? Thanks so much. 

Alan: I have always been open to these requests. We are a School of Music, not a Museum of Past Practices. It starts with a conversation with the performers about what they need, and then we figure out which piano to use. Depending on how exotic the temperament is, 6 tunings seems likely, but more if they need an instrument to rehearse with. Often that can be handled by a digital keyboard, but not always. Two years ago a former student came back to NIU to play a piece with piano tuned to Slendro scale for Gamelan. Pretty wild, so we used a Kawai upright for that project. There were maybe 10 tunings involved, result was quite a good performance, was not hard to do , though Verituner sometimes had issues with which note it was tuning. The instructions in cents deviation was not super precise, but that doesn't matter- neither is a gamelan tuning. Octaves were just clean- and non altered notes were muted so they wouldn't ring out of tune with the altered notes. I could have done the tuning on one of the concert grands but they were both pretty busy at that time in the calendar and performers were just thrilled to have an acoustic piano of any type for the performance. That's how we handle these requests. Start with a conversation, and have the ability to say no if it messes up things for the rest of the school. I have never had to say no, but can if need be.

Hi David,

Any chance the piece you tuned to a Balinese slender scale was composed by Bill Alves? Decades ago, we did a concerto of his for piano and our gamelan. Cool sounding piece in the end, but it took a lot of time turning a cool concept into hard reality. From what I was able to surmise, no two gamelans are pitched exactly the same or tuned to precisely the same temperament. Add to that the fact that most gamelan instruments come in pairs that are deliberately "de-tuned. (When I was a student at CalArts, I asked our gamelan master, I Nyoman Wenten, why the paired instruments were not tuned together. I'll never forget his answer, "If they were tuned together how would you know there was more than one of them?" This aesthetic is a world away from the ideal of twenty violins trying to sound like one big violin.)

Best,

Alan

Hi David,

Any chance the piece you tuned to a Balinese slender scale was composed by Bill Alves? Decades ago, we did a concerto of his for piano and our gamelan. Cool sounding piece in the end, but it took a lot of time turning a cool concept into hard reality. From what I was able to surmise, no two gamelans are pitched exactly the same or tuned to precisely the same temperament. Add to that the fact that most gamelan instruments come in pairs that are deliberately "de-tuned. (When I was a student at CalArts, I asked our gamelan master, I Nyoman Wenten, why the paired instruments were not tuned together. I'll never forget his answer, "If they were tuned together how would you know there was more than one of them?" This aesthetic is a world away from the ideal of twenty violins trying to sound like one big violin.)

Best,

Alan

Hi David,

Any chance the piece you tuned to a Balinese slender scale was composed by Bill Alves? Decades ago, we did a concerto of his for piano and our gamelan. Cool sounding piece in the end, but it took a lot of time turning a cool concept into hard reality. From what I was able to surmise, no two gamelans are pitched exactly the same or tuned to precisely the same temperament. Add to that the fact that most gamelan instruments come in pairs that are deliberately "de-tuned. (When I was a student at CalArts, I asked our gamelan master, I Nyoman Wenten, why the paired instruments were not tuned together. I'll never forget his answer, "If they were tuned together how would you know there was more than one of them?" This aesthetic is a world away from the ideal of twenty violins trying to sound like one big violin.)

Best,

Alan

Hi David,

Any chance the piece you tuned to a Balinese slender scale was composed by Bill Alves? Decades ago, we did a concerto of his for piano and our gamelan. Cool sounding piece in the end, but it took a lot of time turning a cool concept into hard reality. From what I was able to surmise, no two gamelans are pitched exactly the same or tuned to precisely the same temperament. Add to that the fact that most gamelan instruments come in pairs that are deliberately "de-tuned. (When I was a student at CalArts, I asked our gamelan master, I Nyoman Wenten, why the paired instruments were not tuned together. I'll never forget his answer, "If they were tuned together how would you know there was more than one of them?" This aesthetic is a world away from the ideal of twenty violins trying to sound like one big violin.)

Best,

Alan

Alan: I have always been open to these requests. We are a School of Music, not a Museum of Past Practices. It starts with a conversation with the performers about what they need, and then we figure out which piano to use. Depending on how exotic the temperament is, 6 tunings seems likely, but more if they need an instrument to rehearse with. Often that can be handled by a digital keyboard, but not always. Two years ago a former student came back to NIU to play a piece with piano tuned to Slendro scale for Gamelan. Pretty wild, so we used a Kawai upright for that project. There were maybe 10 tunings involved, result was quite a good performance, was not hard to do , though Verituner sometimes had issues with which note it was tuning. The instructions in cents deviation was not super precise, but that doesn't matter- neither is a gamelan tuning. Octaves were just clean- and non altered notes were muted so they wouldn't ring out of tune with the altered notes. I could have done the tuning on one of the concert grands but they were both pretty busy at that time in the calendar and performers were just thrilled to have an acoustic piano of any type for the performance. That's how we handle these requests. Start with a conversation, and have the ability to say no if it messes up things for the rest of the school. I have never had to say no, but can if need be.

David--"We are a School of Music, not a Museum of Past Practices". I think I will avoid saying anything of the sort to the Musicology faculty here!!  LOL  Here at U of O they even have their own building, Collier House, and are know here as the Collierites!!  But I digress.  

We are fortunate to have a dedicated "extended techniques" piano, a Steinway D, which takes the brunt of the service.  I have recently had a request to tune the piano to Kellner to match the organ for a piano and organ piece.  As suggested above it's not a big deal to change temperaments to most of the historically based tunings.  We also have two historically based pianos pitched lower to accommodate such needs

As for policy we have been using the policy found on the CAUT page and generated as I recall by BYU and altered to our own needs.  It gives us some clout, as a group, to support or decline any requests.  I work with a production team that includes the stage manager, scheduler, building manager and recording staff.  Together we are able to make these decisions without making any one person the spoiler.  One of the concerns we have with so many events at once is the possibility of having a piano that doesn't match it's partner in a two piano event.  It's just a matter of coordinating the service to accommodate various events.  Some advance planning usually solves the issue.

We also have a "fines and fees" schedule for charges to anyone wishing special services.  As we are a state school we can't charge for things not on the list.  The above has served as a reminder to update that schedule to include tuning to other temperaments/pitches.  

Mike Reiter

Hi David,

Any chance the piece you tuned to a Balinese slender scale was composed by Bill Alves? Decades ago, we did a concerto of his for piano and our gamelan. Cool sounding piece in the end, but it took a lot of time turning a cool concept into hard reality. From what I was able to surmise, no two gamelans are pitched exactly the same or tuned to precisely the same temperament. Add to that the fact that most gamelan instruments come in pairs that are deliberately "de-tuned. (When I was a student at CalArts, I asked our gamelan master, I Nyoman Wenten, why the paired instruments were not tuned together. I'll never forget his answer, "If they were tuned together how would you know there was more than one of them?" This aesthetic is a world away from the ideal of twenty violins trying to sound like one big violin.)

Best,

Alan

Alan: I have always been open to these requests. We are a School of Music, not a Museum of Past Practices. It starts with a conversation with the performers about what they need, and then we figure out which piano to use. Depending on how exotic the temperament is, 6 tunings seems likely, but more if they need an instrument to rehearse with. Often that can be handled by a digital keyboard, but not always. Two years ago a former student came back to NIU to play a piece with piano tuned to Slendro scale for Gamelan. Pretty wild, so we used a Kawai upright for that project. There were maybe 10 tunings involved, result was quite a good performance, was not hard to do , though Verituner sometimes had issues with which note it was tuning. The instructions in cents deviation was not super precise, but that doesn't matter- neither is a gamelan tuning. Octaves were just clean- and non altered notes were muted so they wouldn't ring out of tune with the altered notes. I could have done the tuning on one of the concert grands but they were both pretty busy at that time in the calendar and performers were just thrilled to have an acoustic piano of any type for the performance. That's how we handle these requests. Start with a conversation, and have the ability to say no if it messes up things for the rest of the school. I have never had to say no, but can if need be.

It's good to hear that musicians are exploring and schools are perhaps more open to expanding the range of acoustic sound.

I have wondered about the educational possibilities of the Keybird piano, a small, single strung vertical piano, capable, according to the company, of being tuned by the player.

It looks like the cost, delivered to the US, would be about $4000.

https://keybird-instruments.com/keybird-x1/

David--"We are a School of Music, not a Museum of Past Practices". I think I will avoid saying anything of the sort to the Musicology faculty here!!  LOL  Here at U of O they even have their own building, Collier House, and are know here as the Collierites!!  But I digress.  

We are fortunate to have a dedicated "extended techniques" piano, a Steinway D, which takes the brunt of the service.  I have recently had a request to tune the piano to Kellner to match the organ for a piano and organ piece.  As suggested above it's not a big deal to change temperaments to most of the historically based tunings.  We also have two historically based pianos pitched lower to accommodate such needs

As for policy we have been using the policy found on the CAUT page and generated as I recall by BYU and altered to our own needs.  It gives us some clout, as a group, to support or decline any requests.  I work with a production team that includes the stage manager, scheduler, building manager and recording staff.  Together we are able to make these decisions without making any one person the spoiler.  One of the concerns we have with so many events at once is the possibility of having a piano that doesn't match it's partner in a two piano event.  It's just a matter of coordinating the service to accommodate various events.  Some advance planning usually solves the issue.

We also have a "fines and fees" schedule for charges to anyone wishing special services.  As we are a state school we can't charge for things not on the list.  The above has served as a reminder to update that schedule to include tuning to other temperaments/pitches.  

Mike Reiter

Hi David,

Any chance the piece you tuned to a Balinese slender scale was composed by Bill Alves? Decades ago, we did a concerto of his for piano and our gamelan. Cool sounding piece in the end, but it took a lot of time turning a cool concept into hard reality. From what I was able to surmise, no two gamelans are pitched exactly the same or tuned to precisely the same temperament. Add to that the fact that most gamelan instruments come in pairs that are deliberately "de-tuned. (When I was a student at CalArts, I asked our gamelan master, I Nyoman Wenten, why the paired instruments were not tuned together. I'll never forget his answer, "If they were tuned together how would you know there was more than one of them?" This aesthetic is a world away from the ideal of twenty violins trying to sound like one big violin.)

Best,

Alan

It's good to hear that musicians are exploring and schools are perhaps more open to expanding the range of acoustic sound.

I have wondered about the educational possibilities of the Keybird piano, a small, single strung vertical piano, capable, according to the company, of being tuned by the player.

It looks like the cost, delivered to the US, would be about $4000.

https://keybird-instruments.com/keybird-x1/

David--"We are a School of Music, not a Museum of Past Practices". I think I will avoid saying anything of the sort to the Musicology faculty here!!  LOL  Here at U of O they even have their own building, Collier House, and are know here as the Collierites!!  But I digress.  

We are fortunate to have a dedicated "extended techniques" piano, a Steinway D, which takes the brunt of the service.  I have recently had a request to tune the piano to Kellner to match the organ for a piano and organ piece.  As suggested above it's not a big deal to change temperaments to most of the historically based tunings.  We also have two historically based pianos pitched lower to accommodate such needs

As for policy we have been using the policy found on the CAUT page and generated as I recall by BYU and altered to our own needs.  It gives us some clout, as a group, to support or decline any requests.  I work with a production team that includes the stage manager, scheduler, building manager and recording staff.  Together we are able to make these decisions without making any one person the spoiler.  One of the concerns we have with so many events at once is the possibility of having a piano that doesn't match it's partner in a two piano event.  It's just a matter of coordinating the service to accommodate various events.  Some advance planning usually solves the issue.

We also have a "fines and fees" schedule for charges to anyone wishing special services.  As we are a state school we can't charge for things not on the list.  The above has served as a reminder to update that schedule to include tuning to other temperaments/pitches.  

Mike Reiter

Hi David,

Any chance the piece you tuned to a Balinese slender scale was composed by Bill Alves? Decades ago, we did a concerto of his for piano and our gamelan. Cool sounding piece in the end, but it took a lot of time turning a cool concept into hard reality. From what I was able to surmise, no two gamelans are pitched exactly the same or tuned to precisely the same temperament. Add to that the fact that most gamelan instruments come in pairs that are deliberately "de-tuned. (When I was a student at CalArts, I asked our gamelan master, I Nyoman Wenten, why the paired instruments were not tuned together. I'll never forget his answer, "If they were tuned together how would you know there was more than one of them?" This aesthetic is a world away from the ideal of twenty violins trying to sound like one big violin.)

Best,

Alan

David--"We are a School of Music, not a Museum of Past Practices". I think I will avoid saying anything of the sort to the Musicology faculty here!!  LOL  Here at U of O they even have their own building, Collier House, and are know here as the Collierites!!  But I digress.  

We are fortunate to have a dedicated "extended techniques" piano, a Steinway D, which takes the brunt of the service.  I have recently had a request to tune the piano to Kellner to match the organ for a piano and organ piece.  As suggested above it's not a big deal to change temperaments to most of the historically based tunings.  We also have two historically based pianos pitched lower to accommodate such needs

As for policy we have been using the policy found on the CAUT page and generated as I recall by BYU and altered to our own needs.  It gives us some clout, as a group, to support or decline any requests.  I work with a production team that includes the stage manager, scheduler, building manager and recording staff.  Together we are able to make these decisions without making any one person the spoiler.  One of the concerns we have with so many events at once is the possibility of having a piano that doesn't match it's partner in a two piano event.  It's just a matter of coordinating the service to accommodate various events.  Some advance planning usually solves the issue.

We also have a "fines and fees" schedule for charges to anyone wishing special services.  As we are a state school we can't charge for things not on the list.  The above has served as a reminder to update that schedule to include tuning to other temperaments/pitches.  

Mike Reiter

Hi David,

Any chance the piece you tuned to a Balinese slender scale was composed by Bill Alves? Decades ago, we did a concerto of his for piano and our gamelan. Cool sounding piece in the end, but it took a lot of time turning a cool concept into hard reality. From what I was able to surmise, no two gamelans are pitched exactly the same or tuned to precisely the same temperament. Add to that the fact that most gamelan instruments come in pairs that are deliberately "de-tuned. (When I was a student at CalArts, I asked our gamelan master, I Nyoman Wenten, why the paired instruments were not tuned together. I'll never forget his answer, "If they were tuned together how would you know there was more than one of them?" This aesthetic is a world away from the ideal of twenty violins trying to sound like one big violin.)

Best,

Alan

Alan: I have always been open to these requests. We are a School of Music, not a Museum of Past Practices. It starts with a conversation with the performers about what they need, and then we figure out which piano to use. Depending on how exotic the temperament is, 6 tunings seems likely, but more if they need an instrument to rehearse with. Often that can be handled by a digital keyboard, but not always. Two years ago a former student came back to NIU to play a piece with piano tuned to Slendro scale for Gamelan. Pretty wild, so we used a Kawai upright for that project. There were maybe 10 tunings involved, result was quite a good performance, was not hard to do , though Verituner sometimes had issues with which note it was tuning. The instructions in cents deviation was not super precise, but that doesn't matter- neither is a gamelan tuning. Octaves were just clean- and non altered notes were muted so they wouldn't ring out of tune with the altered notes. I could have done the tuning on one of the concert grands but they were both pretty busy at that time in the calendar and performers were just thrilled to have an acoustic piano of any type for the performance. That's how we handle these requests. Start with a conversation, and have the ability to say no if it messes up things for the rest of the school. I have never had to say no, but can if need be.