Pianotech

I have a handful of Chinese made Yamaha uprights that have troublesome bass string unisons. The pair of strings on a few notes just cannot be tuned without obvious beating.

Of course I've encountered this on other pianos too. I'm just wondering if anyone has insight as to what the actual issue is. String leveling/hammer mating doesn't help.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 1/5/2023 12:32:00 PM
From: John Pope
Subject: Bass String Unisons

I have a handful of Chinese made Yamaha uprights that have troublesome bass string unisons. The pair of strings on a few notes just cannot be tuned without obvious beating.

Of course I've encountered this on other pianos too. I'm just wondering if anyone has insight as to what the actual issue is. String leveling/hammer mating doesn't help.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

Replacement is probably the solution. The reason I wondered is that individually each of the two strings sounds fine. They just don't sync together!

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-05-2023 12:45
From: Edward Foote
Subject: Bass String Unisons

>>The pair of strings on a few notes just cannot be tuned without obvious beating.

Of course I've encountered this on other pianos too. I'm just wondering if anyone has insight as to what the actual issue is<<

  Poorly made strings is my first guess. I would take measurements and replace them. 

Regards, 

Original Message:
Sent: 1/5/2023 12:32:00 PM
From: John Pope
Subject: Bass String Unisons

I have a handful of Chinese made Yamaha uprights that have troublesome bass string unisons. The pair of strings on a few notes just cannot be tuned without obvious beating.

Of course I've encountered this on other pianos too. I'm just wondering if anyone has insight as to what the actual issue is. String leveling/hammer mating doesn't help.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

Do you have models and serial numbers ? I had a recent experience with a new Yamaha purchased by a Church that had all sorts of issues like jammng keys, poor action regulation. The dealer swapped the piano out and it too had many issues some the same some different.  If these are new pianos maybe its a warranty claim for replacing bad wound/false beating strings. Perhaps it is a factory flaw ....

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
(843) 325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-05-2023 12:32
From: John Pope
Subject: Bass String Unisons

I have a handful of Chinese made Yamaha uprights that have troublesome bass string unisons. The pair of strings on a few notes just cannot be tuned without obvious beating.

Of course I've encountered this on other pianos too. I'm just wondering if anyone has insight as to what the actual issue is. String leveling/hammer mating doesn't help.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

There are 2 of model T121, one T118, and one P22. They are all a few years beyond warranty. Our newer batch of Yamahas are P22s from Indonesia and seem to be better.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-05-2023 12:46
From: James Kelly
Subject: Bass String Unisons

Do you have models and serial numbers ? I had a recent experience with a new Yamaha purchased by a Church that had all sorts of issues like jammng keys, poor action regulation. The dealer swapped the piano out and it too had many issues some the same some different.  If these are new pianos maybe its a warranty claim for replacing bad wound/false beating strings. Perhaps it is a factory flaw ....

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
(843) 325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 01-05-2023 12:32
From: John Pope
Subject: Bass String Unisons

I have a handful of Chinese made Yamaha uprights that have troublesome bass string unisons. The pair of strings on a few notes just cannot be tuned without obvious beating.

Of course I've encountered this on other pianos too. I'm just wondering if anyone has insight as to what the actual issue is. String leveling/hammer mating doesn't help.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

How did you acquire these pianos and when ?  Are the serials/dates close to each other ?What are the notes that are a problem ? Have you miked and measured the strings and are they replacement strings that may have gotten mixed up ?  Interesting that 3 models are involved but all are beyond warranty. I would suggest having new string pairs made for one or two notes on each piano. Maybe the left and right strings are different sizes or one is new the other is old, a string was overpulled etc. Maybe send a pair out to a string maker for analysis ?  Have you checked the string levels and contact at the bridge pins ? how is the hammer wear ?   These are just some things I have encountered . Often it is a process of elimination or solving multiple problems . In my case it was a new P22 that had multiple issues and I also worked on a Yamaha Grand that was new but the hammers had cupping resulting in dissonance.

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
(843) 325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-06-2023 11:57
From: John Pope
Subject: Bass String Unisons

There are 2 of model T121, one T118, and one P22. They are all a few years beyond warranty. Our newer batch of Yamahas are P22s from Indonesia and seem to be better.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY

Original Message:
Sent: 01-05-2023 12:46
From: James Kelly
Subject: Bass String Unisons

Do you have models and serial numbers ? I had a recent experience with a new Yamaha purchased by a Church that had all sorts of issues like jammng keys, poor action regulation. The dealer swapped the piano out and it too had many issues some the same some different.  If these are new pianos maybe its a warranty claim for replacing bad wound/false beating strings. Perhaps it is a factory flaw ....

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
(843) 325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 01-05-2023 12:32
From: John Pope
Subject: Bass String Unisons

I have a handful of Chinese made Yamaha uprights that have troublesome bass string unisons. The pair of strings on a few notes just cannot be tuned without obvious beating.

Of course I've encountered this on other pianos too. I'm just wondering if anyone has insight as to what the actual issue is. String leveling/hammer mating doesn't help.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

Scott Jones' PitchLock?

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-05-2023 12:32
From: John Pope
Subject: Bass String Unisons

I have a handful of Chinese made Yamaha uprights that have troublesome bass string unisons. The pair of strings on a few notes just cannot be tuned without obvious beating.

Of course I've encountered this on other pianos too. I'm just wondering if anyone has insight as to what the actual issue is. String leveling/hammer mating doesn't help.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

Hmmm, I haven't thought about Pitchlock for quite awhile Alan. Have you had some good results with it?

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-05-2023 21:26
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Bass String Unisons

Scott Jones' PitchLock?

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 01-05-2023 12:32
From: John Pope
Subject: Bass String Unisons

I have a handful of Chinese made Yamaha uprights that have troublesome bass string unisons. The pair of strings on a few notes just cannot be tuned without obvious beating.

Of course I've encountered this on other pianos too. I'm just wondering if anyone has insight as to what the actual issue is. String leveling/hammer mating doesn't help.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

I haven't had occasion to use them yet, John. I know that others on this list have, and also saw some relevant posts on Piano World.

My impression is that they were made for situations like the one you face. From what I've read, it sounds like there may be a trade-off between tone and tuning. As with unisons, at the end of the day, we need to make the call as to what, overall, sounds better.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-06-2023 11:59
From: John Pope
Subject: Bass String Unisons

Hmmm, I haven't thought about Pitchlock for quite awhile Alan. Have you had some good results with it?

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY

Original Message:
Sent: 01-05-2023 21:26
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Bass String Unisons

Scott Jones' PitchLock?

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 01-05-2023 12:32
From: John Pope
Subject: Bass String Unisons

I have a handful of Chinese made Yamaha uprights that have troublesome bass string unisons. The pair of strings on a few notes just cannot be tuned without obvious beating.

Of course I've encountered this on other pianos too. I'm just wondering if anyone has insight as to what the actual issue is. String leveling/hammer mating doesn't help.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

Unfortunately, I don’t think Scott Jones is making the Pitchlock couplers anymore. They are helpful for mismatched strings, though replacement with a matching pair is definitely better. They can be also good for front duplex noise, and they don’t lessen the sustain as much as felt weavings that some use to reduce capo noises.

Joe Wiencek
NYC


Original Message:
Sent: 1/6/2023 12:32:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: RE: Bass String Unisons

I haven't had occasion to use them yet, John. I know that others on this list have, and also saw some relevant posts on Piano World.

My impression is that they were made for situations like the one you face. From what I've read, it sounds like there may be a trade-off between tone and tuning. As with unisons, at the end of the day, we need to make the call as to what, overall, sounds better.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-06-2023 11:59
From: John Pope
Subject: Bass String Unisons

Hmmm, I haven't thought about Pitchlock for quite awhile Alan. Have you had some good results with it?

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY

Original Message:
Sent: 01-05-2023 21:26
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Bass String Unisons

Scott Jones' PitchLock?

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 01-05-2023 12:32
From: John Pope
Subject: Bass String Unisons

I have a handful of Chinese made Yamaha uprights that have troublesome bass string unisons. The pair of strings on a few notes just cannot be tuned without obvious beating.

Of course I've encountered this on other pianos too. I'm just wondering if anyone has insight as to what the actual issue is. String leveling/hammer mating doesn't help.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

I have worked on a piano with the same exact issue. Interestingly, when I checked the longitudinal pitch as James Arledge explains, they were obviously different. I suspect that may be one of the contributing factors to the poor unison.

------------------------------
Tim Foster
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-05-2023 12:32
From: John Pope
Subject: Bass String Unisons

I have a handful of Chinese made Yamaha uprights that have troublesome bass string unisons. The pair of strings on a few notes just cannot be tuned without obvious beating.

Of course I've encountered this on other pianos too. I'm just wondering if anyone has insight as to what the actual issue is. String leveling/hammer mating doesn't help.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

Pitchlock couplers would definitely be a good temporary treatment to make your life a little easier. I've used them numerous times for this. 

Does anyone complain about the sound? Or is it just your tuners ears that complain? 🤔 

In lieu of official couplers you might try using a bread bag twisty tie to wrap around the NSL of the wires on the top part between the nut and the tuning pins. It can have a mild effect to unify the sound. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-06-2023 21:24
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Bass String Unisons

I have worked on a piano with the same exact issue. Interestingly, when I checked the longitudinal pitch as James Arledge explains, they were obviously different. I suspect that may be one of the contributing factors to the poor unison.

------------------------------
Tim Foster
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 01-05-2023 12:32
From: John Pope
Subject: Bass String Unisons

I have a handful of Chinese made Yamaha uprights that have troublesome bass string unisons. The pair of strings on a few notes just cannot be tuned without obvious beating.

Of course I've encountered this on other pianos too. I'm just wondering if anyone has insight as to what the actual issue is. String leveling/hammer mating doesn't help.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

I've had no complaints. If I were the pianist in this situation, I might not even notice but when I'm tuning my ear doesn't overlook these things so easily!

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-07-2023 19:34
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Bass String Unisons

Pitchlock couplers would definitely be a good temporary treatment to make your life a little easier. I've used them numerous times for this.

Does anyone complain about the sound? Or is it just your tuners ears that complain? 🤔

In lieu of official couplers you might try using a bread bag twisty tie to wrap around the NSL of the wires on the top part between the nut and the tuning pins. It can have a mild effect to unify the sound.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 01-06-2023 21:24
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Bass String Unisons

I have worked on a piano with the same exact issue. Interestingly, when I checked the longitudinal pitch as James Arledge explains, they were obviously different. I suspect that may be one of the contributing factors to the poor unison.

------------------------------
Tim Foster
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 01-05-2023 12:32
From: John Pope
Subject: Bass String Unisons

I have a handful of Chinese made Yamaha uprights that have troublesome bass string unisons. The pair of strings on a few notes just cannot be tuned without obvious beating.

Of course I've encountered this on other pianos too. I'm just wondering if anyone has insight as to what the actual issue is. String leveling/hammer mating doesn't help.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------