Original Message:
Sent: 12-19-2024 17:47
From: Patrick Greene
Subject: Beginning tech questions
Hey CJ,
Have you thought about joining the PTG? These forums are nice to figure things out but there is a wealth of knowledge to be found in the many online tutorials a person can take advantage of. There is an education hub, and since you are an amateur piano tech, there is opportunity to visit your local chapter and get more hands on information.
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Patrick Greene
OWNER
Knoxville TN
(865) 384-6582
Original Message:
Sent: 12-19-2024 16:19
From: Clint Jones
Subject: Beginning tech questions
Hi Patrick, I tried that and wasn't able to get the hammer to drop back to the back check. That's why I have a feeling part of the problem is also the hammer butt leathers, making it a really big job.
Hi Benjamin, I'll get that book so I can learn about all the parts. Like I said, I originally planned to do everything correctly but this project was tormenting me so I bypassed it and ended up liking the results. I'm pretty sure I understand all the effects to the mod. I can always attempt the project again or hire a pro tech to do it.
Wim, you're no longer welcome on my thread. Nowhere did I proclaim that I was a legitimate piano tech and suggest that you all should be doing mods like this in your professional work. I clearly said the whole time that I'm a beginning amateur tech working on a free piano. It is mine and I can do what I want with it. You don't have the right to hold me to your standard or forbid me to be on here with it.
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Clint Jones
Santa Fe NM
(858) 232-4965
Original Message:
Sent: 12-19-2024 08:48
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: Beginning tech questions
Hey Clint,
There's a tool the suppliers sell specifically for adjusting backchecks in a spinet. Getting it will probably make your attempts of regulating the backchecks a lot easier.
As others have said, I strongly recommend that you don't remove the hammer spring rail. As long as your piano has bridle straps, it might still function without the hammer spring rail, but you're likely to run into problems with hammers not returning once the weather changes and the humidity goes up. There's a reason that piece was designed into that piano, and removing it is a modification that will eventually come back to bite you.
Every part in the piano is there for a reason, and generally we don't recommend making modifications unless you know exactly what you're doing and how it will affect everything else in the long run. When I was learning piano work, someone taught me this acronym: KWYADAWYADI - Know What You Are Doing And Why You Are Doing It. Keeping that in mind has served me well over the years.
You're on a good path, and I'd like to encourage you to keep learning and moving forward. A good next step would probably be picking up the book "Piano Parts and Their Functions." PTG sells it for the cheapest price I've seen, and it's definitely worth a read.
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Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
Piano Technician / Artisan
(256) 947-9999
www.professional-piano-services.com
www.FromZeroToSixFiguresBook.com
Original Message:
Sent: 12-18-2024 17:01
From: Clint Jones
Subject: Beginning tech questions
Finished working on the 1961 Baldwin Howard spinet. This lil free thing really has the tone once restored. It took me 5 months since I got it in July since I had to learn as I went.
I did absolutely everything I could. I gave up on getting the backchecks working and just removed the hammer butt spring rail. I have the option of hiring a pro tech to get the backchecks working but I like it how it is. This is a list of everything I did summarized by the bot:
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Clint Jones
Santa Fe NM
(858) 232-4965
Original Message:
Sent: 10-09-2024 09:49
From: Clint Jones
Subject: Beginning tech questions
I see. I guess I will try correcting the root problem rather than changing other parts in the regulation.
So I have the correct terms identified and I think the problem figured out. The hammer butt leathers are worn creating a little too much friction. And the hammer butt springs are worn out and too weak.
Piano Hammer Butt Spring Replacement - Piano Tuning & Repair I HOWARD PIANO INDUSTRIES
| YouTube | remove preview |
| | Piano Hammer Butt Spring Replacement - Piano Tuning & Repair I HOWARD PIANO INDUSTRIES | | 👉Get your free video series on how to tune your piano here: https://www.howardpianoindustries.com/tuneyourpiano/ Piano Hammer Butt Spring Replacement - Piano Tuning & Repair I HOWARD PIANO INDUSTRIES Piano Hammer Butt Springs can get weak over time and even get brittle and break. | | View this on YouTube > |
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Replacing Hammer Butt Leather and Felt - Piano Tuning & Repair I HOWARD PIANO INDUSTRIES
| YouTube | remove preview |
| | Replacing Hammer Butt Leather and Felt - Piano Tuning & Repair I HOWARD PIANO INDUSTRIES | | 👉Get your free video series on how to tune your piano here: https://www.howardpianoindustries.com/tuneyourpiano/ Replacing Hammer Butt Leather and Felt - Piano Tuning & Repair I HOWARD PIANO INDUSTRIES As part of the process of rebuilding the vertical piano hammer butt, the hammer butt leather and the hammer butt felt should be replaced as these are parts that get worn. | | View this on YouTube > |
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Clint Jones
Santa Fe NM
(858) 232-4965
Original Message:
Sent: 10-09-2024 09:47
From: Larry Messerly
Subject: Beginning tech questions
Pressing the soft pedal does not alter the key/butt relationship.
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Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292
Original Message:
Sent: 10-09-2024 09:43
From: Clint Jones
Subject: Beginning tech questions
Do you mean move the the hammers forward to close the blow distance? Pressing the soft pedal accomplishes this and it doesn't help. I'm pretty sure the material between the hammer butt and jack has degraded creating too much friction for the jack to release and kind of a hump for it to get over. I know I'm a newbie but I'm pretty sure that's it. Everything works fine mechanically when you press a key. I observe the jack getting stuck on the hammer butt material.
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Clint Jones
Santa Fe NM
(858) 232-4965
Original Message:
Sent: 10-09-2024 00:48
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: Beginning tech questions
Clint,
Before you do anything else, if the dip is normal (3/8" or 10 mm) try adjusting the nut or capstan to raise one or two hammers that are giving you trouble. If raising them off of the hammer rest rail fixes the problem you can try raising all hammers and readjusting the hammer rest rail.
If this is not a magic fix then search elsewhere for the issue.
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Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 390-0512
Original Message:
Sent: 10-08-2024 10:21
From: Clint Jones
Subject: Beginning tech questions
The jack struggles or won't release from under the hammer butt when the key is pressed down to enable hammer drop to the backcheck with the key held down. There's no lost motion and it returns fine.
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Clint Jones
Santa Fe NM
(858) 232-4965
Original Message:
Sent: 10-08-2024 09:52
From: George W. R. Davis
Subject: Beginning tech questions
Are you saying the Jack , in the key stroke cycle, is not returning completely under the hammer butt? Is there any lost motion? (Space between top of jack and hammer butt when key stroke has yet to begin)
Original Message:
Sent: 10/8/2024 9:39:00 AM
From: Clint Jones
Subject: RE: Beginning tech questions
It's a Howard. The serial # is 50111. Yes, the material on the hammer butt is indeed a red leathery material, not felt like I wrote earlier. The blow distance is fine. Everything else in the stroke of the key and hammer mechanism seems to work fine from what I can see. The jack is just catching on the hammer butt I think unless I'm missing something.
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Clint Jones
Santa Fe NM
(858) 232-4965
Original Message:
Sent: 10-07-2024 23:59
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: Beginning tech questions
Hi CJ, you say this is a Baldwin spinet. This would be either an Acrosonic or Howard model. The actions are the same and they would be "drop actions" where the action is more or less below the level of the keys and attached with either a wood or wire tangent. What is the serial number of the piano?
Imo, I would look at a lot of other things before I got concerned with the hammer butt unless that hammer butt "leather" is actually a black material called corfam. At any rate, inspect either end of the tangents connecting the keys to the whippens, too much resistance at either end could cause the hammers not to return. Also, if you haven't, measure the hammer blow-the distance from the hammers at rest to the strings, I think that should be 1 3/4". If that's never been adjusted then it could be over 2 inches and cause many problems, you'll have to revisit your regulation if this is the case. Like Blaine said, because of the wear on the hammers perhaps it should be even a little less. Everything else is based upon the hammer blow and the key height.
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Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129
Original Message:
Sent: 10-07-2024 23:20
From: Clint Jones
Subject: Beginning tech questions
Thanks. I've gotten the keys pretty straight but I'll work on getting them perfect before moving on. The backcheck wires aren't rubbing against each other.
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Clint Jones
Santa Fe NM
(858) 232-4965
Original Message:
Sent: 10-07-2024 20:13
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Beginning tech questions
Before sanding the back of the key, make sure the fronts of the keys are properly aligned and straight. When the keys are properly aligned, then, yes, the easiest way to us to sand the keys. Once you've got the keys working, then you can bend the backcheck wires so that they don't rub against each other.
Original Message:
Sent: 10/7/2024 6:42:00 PM
From: Clint Jones
Subject: RE: Beginning tech questions
The back part of a few of the keys are rubbing against the next one causing the key to be harder to play. What is the best fix for this? My inexperienced instinct is to just sand it.
Also I have to address my backchecks not working. Thinking about sanding that also.
Let me know if I'm being foolish or if there is a more effective and professional way. Thx.
Update is I'm a bit taken aback at how much working on the piano improves it. I've tuned it, voiced it, and done some regulating including leveling the keys. I just finished setting the let-off to 1/16" and it gave me more control and the ability to play quieter. It also feels like a more direct connection between pressing the key and the hammer striking the strings resulting in a different tone with more pronounced harmonics. I was not expecting that!
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Clint Jones
Santa Fe NM
(858) 232-4965
Original Message:
Sent: 10-04-2024 12:58
From: Clint Jones
Subject: Beginning tech questions
Ok, keys are good. I can fine tune them as I go but they're good for now. I will do the let off next. I guess I will try closer but I can see how a 1/4" can be fine. Then I'll address this drop problem where I'll have to take the action out. Sorry, to clarify, I mean the hammer isn't dropping back to the back check with the key held down. The hammers return fine when the keys are released. So I'm pretty sure it's the felt that the jack slides on. I stuck my head in there and observed it catching as I pressed down the key. Nothing wrong with the springs or the action of the dip of the keys. For learning, I'm not a big read a book guy. I like to take 1 topic at a time, watch a Howard video, and have a discussion with the bot and on the forum to clarify.
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Clint Jones
Santa Fe NM
(858) 232-4965
Original Message:
Sent: 10-04-2024 01:16
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: Beginning tech questions
If the keys are level and you have adequate dip on the naturals, and sharps aren't burying then move on.
For let-off, remember that you probably have lost between 1/8" to 1/4" off of the hammer striking surface from wear. 1/4" of let-off would be fine with me if it plays well.
As for the hammer problems, start with basics: Are the keys free? Is the balance rail hole binding (lift the keys up, they should drop back with their own weight)? Are the hammer springs in place? Is there dirt under the back of the key (on the back action cloth)?
Actually, at some point you need to read everything you can, ask as many questions as you can, then dump it all and go figure it out yourself!
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Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 390-0512
Original Message:
Sent: 10-03-2024 16:34
From: Clint Jones
Subject: Beginning tech questions
Hi Blaine, thanks for the encouragement and the write up. I'm already liking the piano tech work. And I'm seeing that getting the keys nice is a good starting point.
I've encountered my first repair already on my free spinet. Many of the hammers are not dropping back. I talked to the bot and we think it's because the 'Escapement Cushion (Regulating Button Felt)' has been worn, creating a dip that won't let the jack get around to enable drop back. I'm going to replace them or look for a way to repair them. Double check this if you please. Maybe I could lightly sand off the hump that the jack is struggling to get around?
Also, the black keys are about 9/16" tall. Do you think I should lower them to a 1/2" or is that ok?
What let off distance do you like? I'm thinking about trying 1/16" instead of 1/8" for a more positive feel.
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Clint Jones
Santa Fe NM
(858) 232-4965
Original Message:
Sent: 10-02-2024 19:31
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: Beginning tech questions
Clint,
Ask 100 tuners you will get 100 answers.
IMHO, you are well into it, so keep digging! PERSONALLY, I believe that every piano needs to start with the real basic: key height and key dip. The keys need to be under the key rail (press down on the key rail or fallboard and the keys should not depress and the hammers should not rise). Keys need to be level, you can use a yard stick or even a 4' ruler but I keep a 15" stick that fits in my tool box for most levelling. The fronts of the keys are usually about square if it is done right. The two nice pianos I tuned today appeared to have the key fronts a bit tall and they were nice Yamaha grands, but usually they are square. Then dip needs to be either 3/8" (US) or 10 mm (the rest of the world), I am usually happy with 10 mm. Sharps should be about 1/2 inch tall from the naturals and shouldn't bury (go below the naturals). I usually use a guage that is about the thickness of a nickel; try putting a nickel on the keys of a nice grand and depress the sharps and they should be about level with the nickel.
Adjust the key play/lost motion on one or two notes until you get a nice touch with a bit of aftertouch. There should be a resistence about 2/3rds down and a breaking feel as the jack lets off. Too much aftertouch and the jacks hit their stop and you get a sluggish feel, not enough and the hammers will often double strike. After you get a nice feel and some aftertouch raise the hammer rest rail to that height with some think cloth or felt shims under the hammer rest rail and adjust all of the keys so you have no lost motion or key play. Pull back on the rest rail to see if you over-adjusted any; you need a tiny amont of lost motion for best functioning.
Then go and re-do the backchecks. I like about a finger's width from the strings (5/8"). Test backchecks with different strength's of blow to see if you get blocking or bad backchecking. Back checks can be anywhere from 1/2" to 1", just as long as they work consistently, but closer is often better.
Sometimes you will need to get away from "the specs" to make it work a particular piano.
Do this a few hundred times and you will get the hang of it!
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Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 390-0512
Original Message:
Sent: 10-02-2024 16:15
From: Clint Jones
Subject: Beginning tech questions
I worked on fine tuning the heights and squaring. Next I will work on let off and backchecks.
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Clint Jones
Santa Fe NM
(858) 232-4965
Original Message:
Sent: 10-01-2024 18:33
From: Clint Jones
Subject: Beginning tech questions
Hi, thanks for the replies. I was complaining on my other forum about original posters who post once or twice and then bail out. So I'm making sure to not be a hypocrite in that regard haha.
I had to take my time to process what to do for regulation but it's computing. I replaced the height and dip felts. This greatly improved the evenness of the key heights, dips, and squaring and spacing. I then fine tuned the key heights.
I might work more on the squaring and spacing but it's pretty good now..
Next, I'm going to approach let off and backchecks. This is a little bit out as is.
Any other advice is welcome.
Will definitely consider paying an RPT for work and asking for mentorship. It's expensive though. I already contacted one and he said he wouldn't work on my free spinet haha.
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Clint Jones
Santa Fe NM
(858) 232-4965
Original Message:
Sent: 08-08-2024 08:59
From: David Weiss
Subject: Beginning tech questions
Find a local mentor. Ask him or her to look a the piano and advise you how to proceed. Pay them for their time and expertise.
David
David Weiss Piano Service
www.davidweisspiano.com
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David Weiss RPT
Crozet VA
(434) 823-9733
davidweisspiano@gmail.com
Original Message:
Sent: 08-07-2024 02:55
From: Clint Jones
Subject: Beginning tech questions
Hi, beginning piano tech here. I got a nice lil Baldwin spinet and I've tuned it, voiced it, and replaced a missing string. Wondering what I should look at next? I don't think I need to jump into taking it apart and doing a regulation overhaul as it plays pretty nicely with medium light action and everything working properly. Also, I would probably mess something up and then I would be calling a real registered piano tech to fix it haha. But in your experience, are there any obvious next steps for things to work on and improve? Thanks
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Clint Jones
Santa Fe NM
(858) 232-4965
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