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Black satin refinishing advice

  • 1.  Black satin refinishing advice

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-19-2022 12:38
    Hi all,

    I am a professional piano player and teacher, and am also working towards becoming an RPT as I explained in another post.  I currently have a 1910 Stieff baby grand as my secondary piano while my primary piano is a 1980 Yamaha C5.  I kept my eyes out for a while for a larger grand piano to restore to replace the Stieff and found "the one" in March of this year-- a Knabe semi-concert grand (7' 9") from around 1924 that the owner in Baltimore was throwing out (I've included a photo link below before it was disassembled for the rebuild).  I've just finished the soundboard and am currently fitting the new pin block.  

    Soon, I will be refinishing it.  And yes, I understand this is one of the most difficult aspects of this entire process.  I've been having trouble locating good resources on a traditional black lacquer with satin sheen refinishing job, so I am reaching out to you.  If you have experience doing this work, do you mind sharing your process?  Can you recommend any good books or other resources?  

    https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/QTm30uJUQC24bBCTG3ZLjg.fKbK5AktxbBa0fGXotNrTA

    Thank you so much!

    Tim

    ------------------------------
    Tim Foster
    New Oxford PA
    (470) 231-6074
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Black satin refinishing advice

    Member
    Posted 09-19-2022 12:53

      You may want to sub the work out including the plate and the soundboard.  Unless you have the proper equipment, location, experience the job will look awful. Try contacting other PTG members in your Chapter.  I just inspected a Baldwin Grand that was a good piano but the finishing job not so much. Lots of drips and finish flaws and the plate was not done over.

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Black satin refinishing advice

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-19-2022 13:05
    I do understand that your recommendation would be the ideal. It is my personal piano and I am using it in part to learn the skills necessary for this job from start to finish. I will be practicing on a number of other objects before attempting this and I've constructed collapsing temporary walls with ventilation in the room I'm using.  Additionally, it will eventually be in a corner with my C5 beside it and it will hardly ever be seen from the sides anyway. Lastly, I just don't have the money to have it professionally refinished.  🙂

    ------------------------------
    Tim Foster
    New Oxford PA
    (470) 231-6074
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Black satin refinishing advice

    Posted 09-19-2022 14:44
    CrystaLac Products. Applied with HVLP.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Black satin refinishing advice
    Best Answer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-19-2022 16:00
    Hi Tim:
    I'm not a Refinisher but I have done some work on satin black finishes.  Aside from stripping the old finish, which is easy, there are some things that could cause problems. If any silicone oil has been on the finish, it could cause fish-eye in your new finish. Be sure to clean everything meticulously.  You can use shellac to seal the wood and prevent such problems. To get a nice flat finish with no grain showing, you'll need to fill the grain before applying the finish.  Sanding between coats, you'll build up the finish until the surface is level. Pay attention to the edges and spray extra to prevent them from wearing prematurely.  Sharp edges will always be a problem for that. Use some fine sandpiper up to 1200 grit to make fine satin sheen, then use 0000 pumice powder sprinkled on a wet sponge to get a factory sheen. You can also spray a final clear coat after your final black and before rubbing it out. 
    If you do get some gish-eye, there are additives to use to eliminate that when you're spraying.  It's best to allow the finish to cure for some time before rubbing it out.
    As long as you have a decent gun that's set up properly and good lacquer, you'll be ok.
    The prep work is always the key to a good finish. If the veneer is peeling or cracked, it will appear in your final result.
    Good luck.
    Paul 

    Sent from my iPhone





  • 6.  RE: Black satin refinishing advice

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-20-2022 07:30
    Tim

    I have done enough of those finishes to at least give you the steps involved.  Stripping you are already aware of but it is important to get the wood very clean so you don't have compatibility issues with your new finish.  I wash all parts down with lacquer thinner after stripping just to remove any residue.
    Sanding of all case parts so you get a smooth surface.  You don't have to go higher than 150 grit for this stage on the bare wood.  
    You may want to consider staining the wood black with and Analine dye just in case there are future bumps.  This is not required but you might consider it.
    You will need to fill the grain as has been mentioned.  This process involves first a thin sealer coat sometimes called a wash coat.  It is pretty much 1/3 sealer to 2/3 thinner sprayed on the parts.  The filling is done with Paste Wood Filler.  Mowhawk makes some and I used to get some from Benjamin Moore.  This is mixed with either paint thinner or Naptha.  I prefer Naptha because it flashes sooner and helps with the drying time.  Spread it across the grain with an old credit card or a similar Bondo type spatula.  When it glazes over you can then wipe off the excess.  Use burlap which you can get from a fabric store to wipe it down.   The wide weave gives lots of room for the excess filler to be picked up.  I get my burlap and cut it into squares about a foot each way and go through as many as you need to get the parts clean.  Wipe across the grain so you are forcing the filler into the pores.    You need to let this cure for a minimum of a week since you are using an oil base product and you will typically be top coating with lacquer.
    Next is sanding sealer.  There are some brands of black sanding sealer.  You need two coats.  Some guys will use more and do a lot of additional filling of the pores because sanding sealer is softer and easier to sand.  This results in a finish that will chip easier because the base is thicker and softer.

    Last is the Lacquer.  4 to 6 coats will give you enough finish to sand down and do the rub out (through in some cases unfortunately).  DO NOT START the rub out/sanding until the finish has cured for a minimum of one week preferably two.  Start with 320 and work your way up to 600 sanding in as straight a line as you can do.  Final rub out can be with 0000 steel wool with wool wax (substitute Murphy Oil soap if needed) or with pumice and a cloth.  Decals should be applied at about the 400 stage with a top coating of clear on the fallboard and then final rub out.  

    Hope this helps.

    Norman Cantrell

    ------------------------------
    Norman Cantrell
    Owner
    Piano Clinic
    Oklahoma
    580-695-5089
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Black satin refinishing advice

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-20-2022 08:20
    I use basically the same procedure as Norman.
    There should be some mention of safety and health. These chemicals are not only explosives but harsh carcinogens.
    Get yourself at least a very good double filter mask for organic and inorganic compounds, protect your eyes, invest or rig-up good ventilation. This will help with overspray and dust as well as your health.
    I am just learning about water-based lacquers and cannot advise with these.

    Finishing is detailed finicky work.

    You might consider hand rubbed, tung oil varnish finish. A glossy finish can be achieved and it's easier to repair.

    Nancy Salmon, RPT






  • 8.  RE: Black satin refinishing advice

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-20-2022 11:10
    Tim,

    I learned the hard way that if you're going to do spray finishing you'll need a serious exhaust fan setup  and most especially if you'll be using nitro cellulose lacquer. Norm has covered well the basics, but if you've never done it before there are numerous other details that will make or break the job. 

    Bob Flexner is an author in this field I highly respect. Might be good to pick up one or more of his books on finishing. 

    An alternative you could consider is to actually French polish the finish. Yes it is labor intensive and slow (comparatively) but it will teach you a skill that I guarantee will come in handy later on with repair and touch up work. But since it is slow, you can take your time and control the process at your convenience. No spray booth needed either (though you might want some ventilation).  All the prep work is the same underneath, but the finish application is slow and steady. Just mix black dye into your shellac and you get black shellac. Final rub out is the same as other finishes but since there is less material this way you need to be pretty careful not to rub through. 

    Anyway, that's just an idea or two for you. The case will be the biggest part of the job. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Black satin refinishing advice

    Posted 09-20-2022 12:53

    The best advice so far is Jon's recommendation of water based Crystalac lacquers, applied with a good HVLP gun.  I used those products for many years and they are quite good.  It is a small company, and you will talk to a real, friendly human being at the other end when you (for sure) call for advice on using their products.  

    I sprayed Nitro lacquer for many years in a garage.  It is nasty, toxic stuff that will stink up your shop.  If your are married and spraying in the basement, you won't be by the time the piano is done.  :-)

    I cannot think of a worse starter piano than a satin ebony piano that is pushing 8' in length.  The word masochist comes to mind.  You know why a good pro piano refinisher is so good?  He has already made his 10,000 mistakes and learned from each.  You, on the other hand, don't even know what the mistakes are and why they happened, and they will be front loaded heavily in that first piano.  Doing your first piano is like walking across Siberia, and that big piano will be a very long walk.  Worse still, a satin ebony lacquer is the most difficult to do in that all your mistakes (I repeat all) will be right there on the surface because the finish is opaque, thumbing their noses at you every time you walk by.  

    Good equipment is a must for a good job, as are good finishing materials .  A good spray gun can run $500 easy, the HVLP systems with a gun 1 or 2 thousand.  

    I would start with a smaller, much less ambitious piano



    ------------------------------
    Will Truitt
    Bristol NH
    1-603-934-4882
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Black satin refinishing advice

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-20-2022 22:35
    Thank you all for the advice!

    I've learned a lot so far and appreciate the thoughtfulness of your replies.  

    Will, yes, I completely understand and agree that this Knabe is not the best starter piano.  I'm too far in to go back now, and honestly, I have no regrets so far.  I'm taking my time and am in no hurry.  Maybe I'll change my mind by the time I'm finished.  ;-)  Thank you for the recommendation for water-based lacquer.  Yes, I'm happily married, and since I'd like to keep it that way, I'll consider carefully my finishing options.  lol

    Peter, I was not familiar with French polishing, but since you mentioned it I've been researching it and quite honestly, that looks like the best idea under my circumstances so far, and the results I've seen online are stunning.  Since my work space is certainly not ideal, a less invasive process might be the ticket, even if it takes more time comparatively speaking.  Again, I really appreciate this idea and am now leaning toward this option.

    Nancy, thanks for the health warning.  So far I've only had to spray a shellac/alcohol mixture, and I wore both 3M double filter mask and goggles.  

    Again, many thanks to you all for sharing your experience!

    ------------------------------
    Tim Foster
    New Oxford PA
    (470) 231-6074
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Black satin refinishing advice

    Posted 09-21-2022 08:32
    You'll need space, lots of space. Once you remove the lid for scraping the old finish off and sanding, you have doubled the occupied area. 4+ times that is needed.  You'll need to build a wheeled-truss system to support the piano once the legs are off. Mask the interior and keybed well. If you spray, you'll need a place to hang the lids. A parts rack to set wet items aside to dry; away from overspray.   Plan on 200+ hours.  Buy a new bench rather than glueing back together, strippping, sanding, applying filler, sanding, applying finish, scuffing, applying finish, sanding, applying finish,; repeat as necessary. Each leg will take 45 minutes to sand; each time...rubbing out, longer. There is an art to sanding, more so for rubbing out.
    You'll also need the button bumpers and felt trim. You'll find the most enjoyable part to be polishing the hardware.   I'm so glad I gave this up years ago.
    Save yourself time and aggravation, send it off. It's a bigger can of worms than you'll want to chew.  I know how to refinish and I'd send a piano off.

    Refinish an end table if you want to refinish something. You'll soon discover the immense time it takes.

    I'm not trying to dissuade you from this project, I'll just trying to talk some sense into you :-)

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Black satin refinishing advice

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-21-2022 08:55
    Have to agree with Jon. 

    Back though to French polishing..."The English Polisher" video channel on YouTube is highly useful. He makes it look easy because he knows it inside and out. What's nice is that you can start/stop, pick up/leave off with impunity. Doesn't take up much more room, and when you make a mistake you can fix the mistake without having to redo the whole piece. 

    I mix my shellac with Everclear 190. Seems to make a difference. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Black satin refinishing advice

    Posted 09-22-2022 22:43
    In regards to French Polishing.  In the photos you supplied, this piano was originally black and should remain that way. The woods used will not match and staining and toning would have minimal affect for a wood finish. The surfaces that were veneered where probably done in Philippine Mahogany; a straight-figured grain with no interesting features. The key slip looks to be ash or poplar. Trim above the legs and the portions of the legs will be the same. This piano would look terrible in an attempted wood tone finish. Black, on the other hand, hides a 'multitude of sins'. I think the term for a black hand-applied finish is Japanning. way too labor intensive for this size of a project.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Black satin refinishing advice

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-22-2022 22:54
    Jon,

    True...very labor intensive...but it's "college".

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Black satin refinishing advice

    Posted 09-21-2022 11:32
    I was also thinking about the 200 plus hours as a fair estimate for your time investment, if things go reasonably well.  

    This piano will eat a lot of time that you likely want to devote to other things.  


    ------------------------------
    Will Truitt
    Bristol NH
    1-603-934-4882
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Black satin refinishing advice

    Posted 09-21-2022 12:40
    You will be adding new phrases to your vocabulary. Current cuss words in your vocabulary will be handy and heard often.
    But other terms will be: Scratch Pattern, Runs/Drips. and the dreaded Rub Thru, which has the accompanying Touch Up.
    This is probably a skill set you might regret pursuing.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Black satin refinishing advice

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-21-2022 12:42

    I refinished 2 in my life.  Never again!






  • 18.  RE: Black satin refinishing advice

    Posted 09-21-2022 12:56
    I just had a thought. Rather than refinishing the piano, send it to a refinisher. The time you would have devoted to refinishing, learn to tune a piano.  It is a valuable skillset that you could use over and over again as opposed to refinishing.  Your time can be better spent.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Black satin refinishing advice

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-21-2022 15:03
    Tim,

    I suspect that you are going to do this no matter what, therefore something you MIGHT try is scraping the existing finish off rather than chemically stripping it. A flat carbide scraper (not the curved style) will get quite a bit of it off WITHOUT taking out the existing pore filler. Then when close, a lacquer thinner wipe down (or acetone) can get final residue. Then block sanding to smooth and you're ready to apply shellac French polish. (Shellac sticks to everything and everything sticks to shellac so it's OK to still have some stuff on there). 

    We have a guy in our chapter (Eugene Roe) who swears by this technique. It eliminates several steps. I think the guys at Hampshire Piano in MA also have a handle on this method. 

    Just a thought to try. You may or may not like it. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Black satin refinishing advice

    Posted 09-21-2022 15:10
    Gene swears BY his technique.  I swear AT mine.

    ------------------------------
    Will Truitt
    Bristol NH
    1-603-934-4882
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Black satin refinishing advice

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-23-2022 08:31
    Peter, 

    This is intriguing, it sounds like a great idea, thank you!  When I refinished the soundboard I removed the old finish with a card scraper.  Is that the scraper you have in mind or something more like this one on Amazon: Bahco 665 Premium Ergonomic Carbide Scraper, 2-1/2" https://a.co/d/8jcZE3I ?  Or something entirely different?

    Thank you for helping me think outside the box! 🙂

    ------------------------------
    Tim Foster
    New Oxford PA
    (470) 231-6074
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Black satin refinishing advice

    Posted 09-21-2022 15:08
    You will use all of the 7 words you can't say on TV (thank you George Carlin!!) and have to invent more.  And that may still not be enough.  

    A little tough love here.....   :-)

    ------------------------------
    Will Truitt
    Bristol NH
    1-603-934-4882
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Black satin refinishing advice

    Member
    Posted 09-23-2022 08:33
    In my opinion you should forget doing the finish work on this piano and perhaps try learning on a smaller, no name piano . You are going to get in way over your head and the outcome will likely not be good. You should spend your time learning other things and leave refinishing especially on a piano this size to those who have already gotten the million paper cuts and who have exposed themselves to bad chemicals. Looking at you tube videos, reading DIY books going to classes are not going to teach you all of the skills needed to be a good refinisher or finish expert. There is a reason a brain surgeon does not operate on hearts.

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Black satin refinishing advice

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-23-2022 08:33
    Will, 

    I removed a spinet action a couple days ago, fixed the issues and put it back together without swearing. That's got to count for something, huh? Lol

    ------------------------------
    Tim Foster
    New Oxford PA
    (470) 231-6074
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: Black satin refinishing advice

    Posted 09-23-2022 10:45
    You've heard of Long Haul Covid, right?  Well, there is such a thing as LONG HAUL finishing.  But with the Covid, you have the luxury of dying, not so with refinishing.  And if you do die and go to Hell, the devil will make you spend the rest of eternity finishing the piano.... 

    It's not enough to be stubborn.  it's not a virtue in this case.  

    Is this piano your first rebuild ever? What else are you doing or have already done on the Knabe?


    ------------------------------
    Will Truitt
    Bristol NH
    1-603-934-4882
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Black satin refinishing advice

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-23-2022 17:05
    I appreciate your concern, and understand this is a LONG project.  I'm definitely leaning toward French polishing as Peter suggested.  I may decide never to do this again when I'm done, and I'm okay with that, too.  I just felt this was an opportunity that I wanted to experience for better or worse.  In college I bought a house that needed a tremendous amount of work (started by jacking it up, in fact).  I've rebuilt a transmission among other vehicle work.  I've learned what jobs I am okay to do and which ones I will likely never do again (plaster, for example).  

    This is my first rebuild.  It's a piano that was literally going to be smashed with a sledge hammer since they couldn't get it out of the building.  I was able to save it by removing it from a second story window with a skid loader.  I've removed the wires (and catalogued each piano wire diameter), removed the plate after getting many measurements for downbearing, etc., shimmed and refinished the soundboard, installed a new decal, refurbished the bridges, rough cut the new pinblock and working on getting it fit exactly tomorrow.  Yes, I may be crazy, but as has been observed already in this thread, I'm doing this.  :)

    ------------------------------
    Tim Foster
    New Oxford PA
    (470) 231-6074
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: Black satin refinishing advice

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-23-2022 20:58
    Tim,

    You are to be commended for perseverance and endurance (as well as self control). 😉 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: Black satin refinishing advice

    Posted 09-24-2022 08:29
    Tim-
    From the viewpoint of my mid-70s, I will say that if you live your life with openness to unexpected possibilities, you will be delighted to discover the ways that joyful competencies compound to enable unexpected wonders.
    For example, should you become interested in historic conservation and restoration, skill in French polishing will be very valuable.
    French polishing is also a method of finish repair which can be done on site. An it's a great way to learn about solvents, lacquers, oils, stains and woods, involving intuitive contact with wonderful materials. And the smells are beautiful.

    Don't worry, pianos connect to everything!
    [Or, if you prefer, just tune as many pianos a day as you can to make as much money as you can until your body wears out.]

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------