Thank you all for the advice!
I've learned a lot so far and appreciate the thoughtfulness of your replies.
Will, yes, I completely understand and agree that this Knabe is not the best starter piano. I'm too far in to go back now, and honestly, I have no regrets so far. I'm taking my time and am in no hurry. Maybe I'll change my mind by the time I'm finished. ;-) Thank you for the recommendation for water-based lacquer. Yes, I'm happily married, and since I'd like to keep it that way, I'll consider carefully my finishing options. lol
Peter, I was not familiar with French polishing, but since you mentioned it I've been researching it and quite honestly, that looks like the best idea under my circumstances so far, and the results I've seen online are stunning. Since my work space is certainly not ideal, a less invasive process might be the ticket, even if it takes more time comparatively speaking. Again, I really appreciate this idea and am now leaning toward this option.
Nancy, thanks for the health warning. So far I've only had to spray a shellac/alcohol mixture, and I wore both 3M double filter mask and goggles.
Again, many thanks to you all for sharing your experience!
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Tim Foster
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074
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Original Message:
Sent: 09-20-2022 12:53
From: Will Truitt
Subject: Black satin refinishing advice
The best advice so far is Jon's recommendation of water based Crystalac lacquers, applied with a good HVLP gun. I used those products for many years and they are quite good. It is a small company, and you will talk to a real, friendly human being at the other end when you (for sure) call for advice on using their products.
I sprayed Nitro lacquer for many years in a garage. It is nasty, toxic stuff that will stink up your shop. If your are married and spraying in the basement, you won't be by the time the piano is done. :-)
I cannot think of a worse starter piano than a satin ebony piano that is pushing 8' in length. The word masochist comes to mind. You know why a good pro piano refinisher is so good? He has already made his 10,000 mistakes and learned from each. You, on the other hand, don't even know what the mistakes are and why they happened, and they will be front loaded heavily in that first piano. Doing your first piano is like walking across Siberia, and that big piano will be a very long walk. Worse still, a satin ebony lacquer is the most difficult to do in that all your mistakes (I repeat all) will be right there on the surface because the finish is opaque, thumbing their noses at you every time you walk by.
Good equipment is a must for a good job, as are good finishing materials . A good spray gun can run $500 easy, the HVLP systems with a gun 1 or 2 thousand.
I would start with a smaller, much less ambitious piano
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Will Truitt
Bristol NH
1-603-934-4882
Original Message:
Sent: 09-20-2022 11:10
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Black satin refinishing advice
Tim,
I learned the hard way that if you're going to do spray finishing you'll need a serious exhaust fan setup and most especially if you'll be using nitro cellulose lacquer. Norm has covered well the basics, but if you've never done it before there are numerous other details that will make or break the job.
Bob Flexner is an author in this field I highly respect. Might be good to pick up one or more of his books on finishing.
An alternative you could consider is to actually French polish the finish. Yes it is labor intensive and slow (comparatively) but it will teach you a skill that I guarantee will come in handy later on with repair and touch up work. But since it is slow, you can take your time and control the process at your convenience. No spray booth needed either (though you might want some ventilation). All the prep work is the same underneath, but the finish application is slow and steady. Just mix black dye into your shellac and you get black shellac. Final rub out is the same as other finishes but since there is less material this way you need to be pretty careful not to rub through.
Anyway, that's just an idea or two for you. The case will be the biggest part of the job.
Peter Grey Piano Doctor
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Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
Original Message:
Sent: 09-20-2022 08:20
From: Nancy Salmon
Subject: Black satin refinishing advice
I use basically the same procedure as Norman.
There should be some mention of safety and health. These chemicals are not only explosives but harsh carcinogens.
Get yourself at least a very good double filter mask for organic and inorganic compounds, protect your eyes, invest or rig-up good ventilation. This will help with overspray and dust as well as your health.
I am just learning about water-based lacquers and cannot advise with these.
Finishing is detailed finicky work.
You might consider hand rubbed, tung oil varnish finish. A glossy finish can be achieved and it's easier to repair.
Nancy Salmon, RPT
Original Message:
Sent: 9/20/2022 7:30:00 AM
From: Norman Cantrell
Subject: RE: Black satin refinishing advice
Tim
I have done enough of those finishes to at least give you the steps involved. Stripping you are already aware of but it is important to get the wood very clean so you don't have compatibility issues with your new finish. I wash all parts down with lacquer thinner after stripping just to remove any residue.
Sanding of all case parts so you get a smooth surface. You don't have to go higher than 150 grit for this stage on the bare wood.
You may want to consider staining the wood black with and Analine dye just in case there are future bumps. This is not required but you might consider it.
You will need to fill the grain as has been mentioned. This process involves first a thin sealer coat sometimes called a wash coat. It is pretty much 1/3 sealer to 2/3 thinner sprayed on the parts. The filling is done with Paste Wood Filler. Mowhawk makes some and I used to get some from Benjamin Moore. This is mixed with either paint thinner or Naptha. I prefer Naptha because it flashes sooner and helps with the drying time. Spread it across the grain with an old credit card or a similar Bondo type spatula. When it glazes over you can then wipe off the excess. Use burlap which you can get from a fabric store to wipe it down. The wide weave gives lots of room for the excess filler to be picked up. I get my burlap and cut it into squares about a foot each way and go through as many as you need to get the parts clean. Wipe across the grain so you are forcing the filler into the pores. You need to let this cure for a minimum of a week since you are using an oil base product and you will typically be top coating with lacquer.
Next is sanding sealer. There are some brands of black sanding sealer. You need two coats. Some guys will use more and do a lot of additional filling of the pores because sanding sealer is softer and easier to sand. This results in a finish that will chip easier because the base is thicker and softer.
Last is the Lacquer. 4 to 6 coats will give you enough finish to sand down and do the rub out (through in some cases unfortunately). DO NOT START the rub out/sanding until the finish has cured for a minimum of one week preferably two. Start with 320 and work your way up to 600 sanding in as straight a line as you can do. Final rub out can be with 0000 steel wool with wool wax (substitute Murphy Oil soap if needed) or with pumice and a cloth. Decals should be applied at about the 400 stage with a top coating of clear on the fallboard and then final rub out.
Hope this helps.
Norman Cantrell
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Norman Cantrell
Owner
Piano Clinic
Oklahoma
580-695-5089
Original Message:
Sent: 09-19-2022 12:37
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Black satin refinishing advice
Hi all,
I am a professional piano player and teacher, and am also working towards becoming an RPT as I explained in another post. I currently have a 1910 Stieff baby grand as my secondary piano while my primary piano is a 1980 Yamaha C5. I kept my eyes out for a while for a larger grand piano to restore to replace the Stieff and found "the one" in March of this year-- a Knabe semi-concert grand (7' 9") from around 1924 that the owner in Baltimore was throwing out (I've included a photo link below before it was disassembled for the rebuild). I've just finished the soundboard and am currently fitting the new pin block.
Soon, I will be refinishing it. And yes, I understand this is one of the most difficult aspects of this entire process. I've been having trouble locating good resources on a traditional black lacquer with satin sheen refinishing job, so I am reaching out to you. If you have experience doing this work, do you mind sharing your process? Can you recommend any good books or other resources?
https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/QTm30uJUQC24bBCTG3ZLjg.fKbK5AktxbBa0fGXotNrTA
Thank you so much!
Tim
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Tim Foster
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074
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