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Broadwood Piano

  • 1.  Broadwood Piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 21 days ago

    I've tuned two of the three pianos for a customer who recently moved to my town. The third one is a 7'4" John Broadwood & Sons grand piano. It's in sad shape and the customer was interested in restoring it, or at least getting a price. The keyslip is hinged, and on the inside of it is stamped the number 22525. Pierce Atlas puts it circa 1885, although it looks older than that to me. It has oblong tuning pins, dampers under the strings, etc.

    I've rebuilt hundreds of pianos, but not one quite like this. I was interested in speaking directly to someone who is familiar with these instruments for some advice.

    Thanks in advance!

    Gene Taets, R.P.T.

    genepiano@gmail.com

    (309) 796-2888



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    Eugene Taets RPT
    Silvis IL
    (309) 796-2888
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  • 2.  RE: Broadwood Piano

    Posted 21 days ago
    Hi Eugene,

    It's beautiful.  

    What does the decal on the fallboard say?

    What is the actual length, feet and inches?

    Broadwood dating is easiest done with a letter to Broadwood, but their publication helps too.   

    Bill









  • 3.  RE: Broadwood Piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 19 days ago

    Hi Bill,

     

    I have a 7'4" Broadwood, serial number #1165. My research several years ago informed me that there were 2 versions of grands with different numbering systems around that time. The instrument could be from around 1860's or 1890's. For giggles and grins, I'll share some things:

    Equal temperament tests don't coincide. The tuning pins seem to be threaded and are oblong. The grain on the soundboard is reverse from what is done on modern pianos; it is heaved and cracked. The plate is iron, and it is straight strung. The bass string are "back wound" quite a bit, and artfully. They are wrapped with felt through the bridge pins on top of the bridge. I think it has agraffes all the way to 88? Copious coal dust coats the underside. The action has no wippens; the jack is sprung and integral to the key. Many hammer shanks have been replaced/repaired and several of the hammers have been covered with leather. The keyboard is set to minimal dip. Felts still in excellent condition. Signatures, (because of piece work?) are on most separate pieces. None of them are warped. I'm told English Red Oak. The decal on the front is in mint condition. I had a custom cover made for it. Right now, it's in storage. I hope I can risk putting my tuning lever down and bring it back to life.

     

    When I set it up it was missing the music desk. Ouch. I thought it was available when I saw it. Oh well...then about a year later I wandered into the store and the proprietor said he had something for me. He had the music desk in his 40' truck on the shelf over the cab. Wow!

     

    Warm Regards,

    Peter Acronico, RPT

    (408) 838-2559

     






  • 4.  RE: Broadwood Piano

    Posted 19 days ago
    Hi Peter!

    We have three similar Broadwoods in the Period Piano Collection.  

    I'll re-share what David Pinnegar put up:


    This is just part of a larger document at the site that should be included in your study .  That document more precisely helps you identify your piano.

    Regards,

    Bill

    Bill Shull, RPT, M.Mus.
    www.shullpiano.com
    www.periodpiano.org
    909 796-4226

    Sent from my iPhone





  • 5.  RE: Broadwood Piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 18 days ago

    Peter,

    It appears my customers piano is quite similar yours. Interesting story of the music desk. This one is missing the lid hinges. I appreciate the input from all who responded. It will give me several things to look at when I return for a more thorough inspection.

    Thank you!

    Gene



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    Eugene Taets RPT
    Silvis IL
    (309) 796-2888
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  • 6.  RE: Broadwood Piano

    Posted 21 days ago
    Broadwoods with underdampers are special, and work well. The early ones just had wooden wrestplanks, and that in my instrument of 1859 is good, but sometimes the wrestplank disintegrates and needs replacement. Later Broadwoods have an iron plate which is threaded. It's necessary to screw out the tuning pins and screw them back in. 

    Here's an example of sound - although action was damp and not as responsive as it is in summer

    Here's an 1880s Broadwood with loose pins which caught me offguard between winter and summer https://youtu.be/nZboO8RiuSA

    Here's my Mentor, Michael Gamble, restringing an 1869 Cottage Grand https://youtu.be/nLlrPZjiSBg


    These instruments respond well to Kirnberger III tuning

    Best wishes

    David P


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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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    +44 7868385643





  • 7.  RE: Broadwood Piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 18 days ago

    David,

    I appreciate the information. The videos are very informative! I've only had a quick look at it as it's surrounded by furniture, plants, statues and the lid hinges are missing. This one appears to have the open face pinblock. Yours and the other responses I received have given me several things to look at when I return for a more thorough inspection.

    I appreciate it!

    Gene 



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    Eugene Taets RPT
    Silvis IL
    (309) 796-2888
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  • 8.  RE: Broadwood Piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 21 days ago
    It's possible to RESTORE, but don't change a thing.   Use those pins, they may be threaded.  DO NOT DRILL OUT THE PLATE TO USE DIFFERENT PINS!  Use the proper wire, not modern wire,  don't use modern hammers; get those recovered.  Use reproductions of historical felt and cloth. 

    Douglas Sheffield-Laing
    727-539-9602






  • 9.  RE: Broadwood Piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 18 days ago

    Douglas,

    I appreciate the input. I'm in agreement. The goal is to make it a playable instrument, while keeping it as original as possible. I'm guessing that Gregor Heller  or J.D. Grant is the place I should get the strings from. I've only done a quick look at it as it's surrounded by furniture, plants, statues and the lid hinges are missing. Yours and the other responses give me several things to look at when I return for a thorough inspection.

    Thank you!

    Gene



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    Eugene Taets RPT
    Silvis IL
    (309) 796-2888
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  • 10.  RE: Broadwood Piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 18 days ago
    And you can order your treble wire directly from paulello.  It's going to be a big adventure for the next 8 months. 

    Douglas Sheffield-Laing
    727-539-9602







  • 11.  RE: Broadwood Piano

    Posted 18 days ago
    Gene and Peter

    Please forgive me for being confused by different instruments on this thread. I haven't been able to see photos if any have been posted.

    Underdampers would indicate an instrument possibly in the 1850s. Not later.

    If the decal on the fallboard is paper in a wooden rectangle it is before mid 1850s. If it's squirly script it will be late 1850s to 1870s and if a typeface lettering, later.

    If the wrestplank isn't iron with threaded pins, then it's 1850s and before.

    As someone else says here, keeping original is vital in terms of hammers and other things, and tuning pins too.

    Peter - what do you mean by Equal Temperament tests? Your observation might be quite interesting and important so if you could expand on this it would be potentially very helpful.

    On the 1869 Cottage Grand we restrung with Roslau blue. The treble is weak with many false notes and this coincides with a lack of crown in the soundboard in that region. Would Paulello help with this? A historic instrument restoration friend says that he has met instruments of this date and type before and the old trick was to use wedges to force the soundboard up and he has a special system of miniature acro-props. The 1850 Hallé instrument is sounding similarly woody in the top octave and probably from the same issue.

    We used Heller Bass for the wound strings. And yes, they are moderated by felt on the bridge. Keep it.

    Best wishes

    David P






  • 12.  RE: Broadwood Piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 18 days ago

    Hi David,

    A few things...

    1) I don't know if I'm responding to you directly or if this goes to the Group. Many of the posts above this one do not show up in my daily summary. I'm just learning.

    2) I will give one obvious example, but many of the other equal temperament aural checks do not confirm proper intervals: a major third/major 10th test to verify a clean A3 - A4 octave does not even come close as with listening to the octave itself for cleanliness. The minor 3rd - major 6th test does not yield satisfying results either. I do not have the piano setup so I can't delve into it any deeper.

    3) I tuned a harpsichord at the college where I teach piano technology to 1/4 meantone standard (from RCT library) and each person who came into the room went ugh, that sounds terrible. Some were music professors; however, after I demonstrated to them how the bearing was set, and the different character between several keys, their views changed. Our choral/orchestral director (professor) said after a while, "Oh, those pure thirds relax me."

    4) I demonstrated to the whole class a bit later (and I did this theatrically, with one of my students playing the harpsichord) how Chopin's Prelude Op. 28, No. 4 in e minor spoke of an unrequited love until it resolved into a successful tryst. Then she played it on a well-tuned vertical. Yuck! After that, back to the harpsichord for cleansing the palate.

    I tuned a Baldwin SF-10 after class that night and found equal temperament excruciatingly harsh.

    Convert? Maybe.

    Regards,

    Peter



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    Peter Acronico RPT
    San Jose CA
    (408) 838-2559
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  • 13.  RE: Broadwood Piano

    Posted 18 days ago
    Peter

    Brilliant and interesting

    The reason is because these straight strung instruments have a different harmonic content from cross strung instruments and this is why I put forward a belief that it was the introduction of cross stringing that started the shift towards "modern" style equal temperament. The straight strung instruments - all that I've looked at - have a predominantly 3rd harmonic focus in the tenor/bass region whilst the cross strung instruments allow the 5th harmonic to emerge in the sound.

    The straight strung instruments are tonally deficient by the measure against the cross strung instruments. It was that dazzling new sound that sold pianos in their industrial hundreds of thousands to buyers who were status-symbol hunters rather than musicians. The sound glistens and the key colour, which you've now discovered, is lost.

    https://youtu.be/nWMPEpBN0FA is a direct comparison of experience between a mid-century concert Broadwood and a late century cross strung "modern" style instrument

    Harpsichords in meantone are great, but I've yet to be persuaded about tuning the piano to 1/4 comma meantone. However, when you do, the Mozart piano sonatas come to life. Mozart goes into outrageous modulations - for a joke slipping on a banana skin for a couple of bars and then recovering as if nothing had happened - or for pathos. The 2nd sonata in F major, F minor, F major is masonic related to the 3rd degree.

    Kirnberger III gives the nearest possible to the best of meantone on the piano without the nastiness, and brings out the colour of sound on the straight strung instruments - as well as bringing forward characteristics of the experience of the ancient piano onto the new instrument. There's a special way of tuning the new instrument to tame it which I will be happy to share with you confidentially.


    are two examples experiencing the tonality and sustain on an 1802 Stodart, the closest a piano can sound to a harpsichord, and then bringing that experience forward onto the cross-strung modern genre of instrument, both tuned exactly the same with tamed Kirnberger III

    I have come to find Kellner "well temperament" rather muddies the effects and so will tune it for unequal temperament novices but tune Kirnberger as the go-to concert tuning.

    I did https://youtu.be/O-cJUxwXrIQ as a quick tour of the tonal change for someone, very quickly at midnight before getting a 6am plane . . . somewhat marred by a demonstration of a pipe organ in meantone with one stop not fully drawn and marring the sound terribly. So please ignore that!

    Best wishes

    David P


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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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    +44 7868385643





  • 14.  RE: Broadwood Piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 13 days ago
    David,

    On a different subject. I have a friend, who is a fine piano player. He's recently moved to Dublin, because of the political B.S.here in the U.S. Long story. He has purchased a vintage 7'6" Bechstein and would like to do some regulating on it. I'm told the shipping container with most of his personal belongings is delayed and hasn't even left the states. All of his piano tools are in it.

    Could you recommend a piano supplier in that area where I could purchase a few regulating tools to send to him.

    Update on the Broadwood: I'm in the middle of tuning about 70 college pianos before the semester starts. Sometime soon I'm planning to return to the Broadwood for a more thorough inspection. I'll let you know what I find.

    I appreciate it!
    Gene Taets, R.P.T.

    Sent from my iPhone





  • 15.  RE: Broadwood Piano

    Posted 12 days ago
    Hi!

    THe UK supplier is Fletcher and Newmann https://www.fletcher-newman.co.uk/ If they need a name for recommendation, he's welcome to mention me.

    I have had good experience with Aliexpress also.

    Best wishes

    David P


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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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    +44 7868385643





  • 16.  RE: Broadwood Piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12 days ago
    Thanks again for your help!
    Sent from my iPhone





  • 17.  RE: Broadwood Piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12 days ago

    Or....find a recently retired tech and ask to borrow.



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    Cindy Strehlow, RPT
    Urbana, IL
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