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Business insurance?

  • 1.  Business insurance?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-20-2022 11:48
    I run an office in the home, no customer traffic, and service pianos in homes, churches, schools. I have had business insurance for decades, but question the need for it. PTG offers the insurance and it is the same price as my personal agent. Do any of you carry business insurance for a simple tuning business anymore? Is it even worth the expense? I am already protected somewhat with an LLC. Thanks in advance for your input.

    ------------------------------
    Greg Junker RPT
    Greg Junker's Piano Shoppe LLC
    Belleville IL
    (618) 971-9595
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Business insurance?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-20-2022 14:20
    Greg

    Even as an LLC, it's not a bad idea to carry some liability insurance, If for no other reason than to pay the lawyers to defend you, and your LLC, in case of a law suit. But the insurance will also pay for your LLC for any damage "you" do to either the piano, or your customer's property. 

    When I was still in St. Louis, I got a policy through Steve B at a much cheaper rate than through Safeco. 

    Wim.





  • 3.  RE: Business insurance?

    Posted 09-21-2022 12:05
    I have carried it for several years and the reason I started in the first place is that I started tuning very expensive pianos on a regular basis and I was also in upscale homes with expensive artwork often sitting on top of the piano.  I got a standard million dollar business liability policy with a $500 deductible through state farm at $27.00 a month.  It has basically stayed the same price for years, so I figure this is worth it for me.  I actually had to claim on it  a couple years ago when I was in an auto accident.  My Ipad Pro was damaged in the wreck and the insurance company paid me $1000 for its loss and my premiums did not go up.

    Churches and schools are now requesting that I have it as well, so I feel like its a good thing.  Also, it is a tax deductible expense.

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Greene
    OWNER
    Knoxville TN
    (865) 384-6582
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Business insurance?

    Posted 09-20-2022 15:50
    I've never had business insurance. 48 years. I'm self-insured. Sure I've had to repair a few damaged finishes, minor. The money I saved more than paid for it. Besides, if I made a claim; my rates would increase. That's why movers pay me directly for finish repair rather than making a claim. If you don't move pianos, what's the insurance for
    CYA for tuning? Tracking in mud on their carpet?   Don't live in fear.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Business insurance?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-20-2022 16:02
    Jon

    I pay for life insurance. So far so good. 
    I paid for business insurance, but never needed. It was peace of mind.  
    The reason a policeman wears a bullet proof vest is in case someone takes a shot at him.  It's too late when someone does. 

    You've dodged the bullet, my friend. I hope your last customer won't take all the money you've saved.

    Wim





  • 6.  RE: Business insurance?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-21-2022 07:06

    Jon

    Ah...let me see.

    For starters, if you are on your way to a client and you cause an accident,  and if it can be proven it's work related, you are going to need to defend yourself against a potentially large lawsuit. Your car insurance will only cover you so far. It's the business insurance that provides the additional level of protection. Its there for a reason.

    I'm now getting notices from institutions letting me know that I need to add them to my insurance policy in order to maintain my account. That's now including school systems,  local colleges,  concert halls, and even the churches are making these policy changes. They are demanding that I have $1,000,000 in liability insurance. Ridiculous?   I would say so, but that's how the lawyers are framing the rules for vendors working on given properties. The vendor assumes full liability when they step foot on their properties.

    In 45 yrs., I've only had to make one claim and that was from my own stupidity with a customer's piano in my shop.

     

    That all being said, I'm also a plaintiff in a lawsuit, as I was involved in a serious car accident leaving me with lifelong disabilities and restrictions. I'm seeing Lady Justice in motion from the prosecutorial side. Seeing (firsthand) how the insurance coverage and legal system plays out has been an eye opener!  Although I can't get disclose particulars inf my case,  I was hit by person driving a business truck going 70mph, and I was at a stop sign. So the other driver was clearly at fault.  Suffice to say,  the impact that I had was serious.

    For me....I'm staying on the protective side of this argument. I pay the monthly $95 fee and chalk it up to the cost of doing business.

     

    Tom Servinsky 

    Registered Piano Technician

    Concert Artist Piano Technician

    Director/Conductor- Academy Orchestra

    Managing Conductor-Treasure Coast Youth Symphony

    Clarinetist-Atlantic Classical Orchestra

    tompiano@tomservinsky.com

    Website: tomservinsky.com

    772 221 1011 office

    772 260 7110 cell

     






  • 7.  RE: Business insurance?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-21-2022 08:00
    Thanks, Tom, for giving a very good reason to get the insurance.

    Speaking of car insurance, as a reminder, if you use your vehicle for business, you should let your car insurance company know and make sure you have that specifically on your policy. It will cost a little extra, but if you get involved in an accident on your way to a customer, your insurance company will pay for the damage to your car and the damage to another car. If you don't have the additional business coverage, your insurance company might deny your claim on your car, and the other people's insurance will sue you for the damage to their car. At least that's what I was told by one of my friends who is an insurance agent. 

    Wim





  • 8.  RE: Business insurance?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-21-2022 08:45
    Wim,

    With all due respect, NEVER trust anything an insurance agent says because they can (and do) say anything they want with complete immunity. What matters is what is IN PRINT in the policy, and few people can actually decipher the legalese with which these policies are written (they are written that way FOR A REASON). 

    Vast majority find out at the wrong time that all the exclusions, qualifications  and limitations written into their policy actually cover very little of their claim. In the end the company will always claim that: "its right there in your policy and it's your obligation to read and understand it...you accepted it when you signed it". Problem is that "nobody" wants to read a 40 page lawyer written contract filled with legal language only a judge can understand, so they ask the "agent" what it means. He/she is free to say anything they want and they are not held responsible. 

    I HAVE read these policies. That's why I KNOW they are basically worthless and have discarded them. (Auto and life policies are fairly simple so not included here). When I sat down and READ the business policy I had I realized how little it actually covered. To get what you REALLY think you need you have to buy ADDITIONAL policies to cover all the various specifics. 

    I'm sorry, but it's a racket, and I know people deep in the insurance business that have confirmed this. Everything is set up to protect THEM...and to pay you and your claim as little as they can legally get away with.  And BTW, who do you think is fundamentally behind "requiring" all these huge insurance coverages in institutions?

    This is why we need to hear from a few that have actually benefitted from their insurance policies. Let's have some ACTUAL factual scenarios where folks can honestly say: "I'd be broke if it wasn't for my business policy..." which is quite different from THINKING you're covered in all the areas you think you are. 

    I'm waiting.

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Business insurance?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-21-2022 09:08

    OK, I'll chime in.

    My accident that I mentioned is a good example. The insurance provider covering the company truck (other driver) was in touch with me immediately as to my damages. I had to submit the damages done to my tools and supplies that were in my car. I also had to submit replacement costs.  They sent me a check within 2 weeks of the accident. That insurance company happens to be the same company that I have my business insurance with. So ,it was interesting to see how they settled with damaged parties.

     

    Example 2

    My only claim that I've made in 45 yrs. happened when I was walking past a grand piano plate that I had in my shop,  leaning against the wall. My belt buckled happened to get lodged into the side of the plate as I was walking by, and bingo, down goes the plate which broken into pieces.  It was nothing of a piano, something like an old Wurlitzer grand. But nonetheless, I had to replace the piano.   I submitted to the insurance company and I was able to get enough to find them a nice Kawai KG2 in good condition. The insurance company was agreeable to covering those costs. And I did not see a rise in my insurance costs.

    Imagine if the damages said piano was a Steinway D, which I've had in my shop numerous times.  I think few of us could cover the replacement cost of such an instrument.

     

    Insurance is one of those necessary evils that comes with the cost of doing business.

     

    Tom Servinsky 

    Registered Piano Technician

    Concert Artist Piano Technician

    Director/Conductor- Academy Orchestra

    Managing Conductor-Treasure Coast Youth Symphony

    Clarinetist-Atlantic Classical Orchestra

    tompiano@tomservinsky.com

    Website: tomservinsky.com

    772 221 1011 office

    772 260 7110 cell

     






  • 10.  RE: Business insurance?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-21-2022 09:12
    I agree that most insurance is a racket and agents are not necessarily trustworthy. But so many of my customers, schools, universities, churches, hospitals, senior living centers, even condo associations, are requiring a liability policy that for me it’s just part of the cost of doing business. Unfortunate, but unavoidable.


    ---Dave

    Sent from my phone, forgive typos!




  • 11.  RE: Business insurance?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-21-2022 09:35
    Peter

    My friend who told me about the car insurance has been a friend from college days, (over 50 years), long before he became an insurance agent. We were music majors, our wives are best friends, we've been on vacations together, we've been to all 5 of our kids weddings, etc. etc.  

    I'm only talking about car insurance, and, in fact, my friend didn't carry car insurance. He offered this advice when I was shopping for car insurance. But he did look at the coverage I had been getting through the PTG program, and said it was very good and comprehensive. But he was able to get the same coverage, for less. Unfortunately, neither the companies he represented, nor Safeco, wrote policies in Hawaii, and I wound up paying $1000 a year to get the same coverage there, including a $2M liability policy which the hospital required. 

    I know that insurance companies will try everything in their power to deny a claim. And their policies are written by lawyers in such a way to make sure they can get away with it. Which is why, ironically, law firms are making tons of money fighting for you to get the more money from those firms. Of course the more they fight for you, the more money the insurance companies have to pay their lawyers to defend them, and we wind up paying more and more in premiums. Which leads some of us, like you and Jon, to take the risk of not paying the premiums, praying you'll never have to use it. 

    Wim





  • 12.  RE: Business insurance?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-20-2022 17:21
    I questioned business insurance when I started out. The prez of my chapter was in favor of it. He reasoned that if your car gets broken into and your tools are stolen, business insurance covers it. If you are in a customers home, tuning away, and a bass string breaks, flying across the room into that priceless Ming vase, business insurance has you covered. I've been fortunate to not have experienced either but I carry business insurance because it only has to happen once to turn into some scary cash out of pocket. Plus, it is a legitimate business expense and therefore a tax write-off.

    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Business insurance?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-20-2022 19:42
    I too am self-insured. Had it for a few years and then gave up on it. Policies written for the benefit of the insurance company...not you. In the rare instance that you actually have a covered loss (such as tools, etc) you will suddenly need to come up with a detailed list of each and every tool, what you paid for it, when (so they can figure depreciation of course), and possibly proof of purchase. Then, after they do their depreciation routine you will only get a fraction of their true worth (they don't see things quite the same way you do) and after your deductible, you get a check for $100. Wow! What a deal! 

    No thanks. If I break it I fix it (and I have). 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Business insurance?

    Member
    Posted 09-21-2022 12:19
    The other tuner in town said he screwed up a real expensive grand and it took all his savings. He is a clutz when it comes to mechanical stuff. I could see it costing a lot if something happens but after 20 years at $1000 a year savings,, I guess that's part of the gamble. Insurance is a gamble. It is set up just like a casino where the house is always the winner. 
    That being said,, I just restrung a piano at the owner's house. There were times I shuddered at how close I came to costing me all my profit. Next job I will put cut padded cardboard and a Burning Man style floor to catch the MOOP. (Matter Out Of Place). As it is I carry a towel to lay on the piano where I set tools. I have a decently intuitive sense but as I get older,, things seem to leap out of the hand or the precision of vision becomes narrow,,, 
    At 71,, how much aggravation do I need? 
    Maybe have the owners sign an understanding that acts of god are not my fault. I do my best but take no responsibility. The owner is required to have the insurance to cover any disaster.
    If my back gives out lifting an action, does the owner pay for the surgeon? 
    Ommmmm






  • 15.  RE: Business insurance?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-21-2022 22:55

    A liability policy doesn't cost anywhere near $1000 a year. I think I pay about $500 a year for $2M liability and carried only 1M until I needed to increase for university work.  

    Another other part of the policy is Baylees, which covers pianos in your care so depending on what your exposure is that can be fairly minimal. Keep in mind that the value of the instrument in a claim may not be the wholesale value it has when you took it in.  

    Also you may need coverage in transport. If you carry an action in the back of the car (which I do often) and someone rear ends you and destroys it that can be an expensive replacement if not covered by the auto claim.  

    I actually did have my tools stolen out of my car several decades ago, and I think the coverage was $2500 which more than covered everything I could repurchase. 

    Research and customize the coverage you need. You usually end up needing insurance right after you decide you don't. 



    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Business insurance?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-22-2022 03:18
    David.

    The $1000 I paid in Hawaii was for a comprehensive plan that covered Bayley, liability, property damage, etc, the same the Safeco plan through PTG.

    Speaking of Bayley, that’s one of the most important policies you can get. As you said, if you take an action home from an unusual piano, or an expensive piano in your car and you have an accident, or if you have the action in your shop, and you have a fire, or you drop it, the Bayley policy pays for another piano.

    From what I was told, if you have a piano completely taken apart and there is a fire, the insurance will pay the value of the piano taken apart, unless you have that replacement rider on your policy.

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 17.  RE: Business insurance?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-20-2022 19:46
    I'm fully in agreement with Mr. Sykes. My friend Ron in Miami had his tools lifted from his car and had to start his tool bag from scratch. No insurance. Just the Faulk hammer alone would have made the premiums worthwhile. Never mind the tools no longer available in the US that have to be sourced overseas.  My premiums are a bit higher because I take pianos into my shop that can be North of $150k. Even without the rebuilding I'd be foolish to go uncovered. I sometimes work in rooms with $100 million or more in art on the walls. Mr.Sykes's flying bass string could bankrupt me just paying a conservator to repair the damage to the Picasso. I don't mean to be crass mentioning dollar amounts but the reality is that many of us work on pianos and in homes we could never hope to afford. Insurance is expensive right up until you need it.

    ------------------------------
    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
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  • 18.  RE: Business insurance?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-20-2022 20:17
    I'm in a similar boat as Mr. Roeder. While I don't take in Concert Grand pianos for whatevers, I too am in homes I will never be able to afford looking at vases, artwork and rugs that I could not replace if it was not for insurance. I am fortunate to have a garage for my car, so tools and parts are not a concern. Other people's belongings? Yes.

    ------------------------------
    -Phil Bondi
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  • 19.  RE: Business insurance?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-20-2022 21:25
    Let's hear from someone who has ACTUALLY damaged some really expensive thing in someone's home, and then had their insurance company PAY to repair/replace or otherwise make a good thing out of a bad thing...anyone?

    What about tool loss? Has anyone actually had an insurance company fully cover their stolen tools? Or if not fully...what % of the loss? I am honestly interested in hearing the "heartbreak to handshake" stories. Maybe it will make me change my mind.

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Business insurance?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-20-2022 21:42
    OK, like I said, I've never had to take advantage of my business insurance, but here are a couple of tips in how to set it up. 

    You don't need to actually write down all the tools you have with notes on purchase price. If you simply lay them all out and take group shots of them. That is generally enough for you to identify them and research their value should you need to. And it's proof enough to the insurance company that you actually had them. The important thing, if you decide to get this insurance, is to pay a couple of bucks more in premium for full value replacement. You lose that expensive hammer in a theft or a fire and the insurance will replace it with new. All my insurance on various things I have set up this way. If my $1K TV gets stolen I'm not stuck with depreciated value. Full value replacement insurance guarantees the price of replacing it with equal quality and price.

    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Business insurance?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-20-2022 22:21

    I've always carried business insurance and never used it-never made a claim. But I wouldn't be without it. It's not about mud on someone's rug. I often have several pianos in process at the same time, Steinway grands each worth tens of thousands of dollars. If destroyed I'm on the hook. If a piano I set up falls and someone is injured, I may not be at fault but that doesn't mean I don't have exposure. A university I work for requires a 2M liability policy. It's not really that expensive.

    You buy insurance not for the small stuff but for the big stuff. Most deductibles preclude claims for small stuff anyway. You buy insurance hoping you'll never have to use it. it's peace of mind I've paid way more in auto insurance than I've ever used or likely will ever use.

    Self insuring is s risk and puts your personal assets at stake. I don't recommend it. 



    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Business insurance?

    Posted 09-21-2022 09:06
    I agree, insurance is for the big stuff. Anything can happen. I had $1M in liability coverage but one hotel tuned in wanted me to carry $2M.  I think it cost me an extra $20 or $40 a year. I never needed it but I still carry it. 







  • 23.  RE: Business insurance?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-21-2022 20:38
    As long as we're talking about insurance... Yet another kind of insurance that I have not personally used but which I pay for is Umbrella Insurance. It's relatively cheap and it's only available through whoever you get your auto insurance from. No, I don't know why it's auto related. In any case, it's a backup insurance policy that usually covers up to $1,000,000 for anything that is not covered by any of your other policies. Say you hit something expensive, or you get hit by something, or something happens on your property, etc., etc., and your insurance, whatever kind, will only cover part of it before that particular category is maxed out. That's when your Umbrella policy kicks in. It will cover the rest of it, up to $1,000,000, for, as I understand it, any reason. Home, liability, car, anything that any other policy, not just auto, that has already been maxed out.

    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Business insurance?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-21-2022 21:53
    I have a $1m umbrella policy. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: Business insurance?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-21-2022 01:14
    I have recently had businesses and hotels request my insurance to get their contract or account.  At $41 per month it is worthwhile to me.

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert RPT
    Duarte CA
    (626) 795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Business insurance?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-21-2022 02:04
    I had to show proof of $2M liability insurance to tune a piano in a hospital. It's their standard policy that all sub contractors have to show in order to work for the hospital. Unfortunately it's becoming a policy for most institutions. They want to cover their ass, just in case. 

    Wim





  • 27.  RE: Business insurance?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-21-2022 10:14
    I agree that AS A FORMALITY, if the desired account is important enough to us, and the cost of the required formality insurance is reasonable enough to justify it (get paid more of course), then it would make sense to get the policy. Fine.

    Interestingly, last year I submitted an estimate for fire related damage to clients insurance company. I was shortly asked for proof of insurance to which I replied: "I don't have any so I guess I'm not your man for the job. Pay me for the estimate and find someone else".  A few days later they came back and said they would waive the insurance requirements so I would handle it. Interesting to say the least.

    Job's done, everyone's "happy" EXCEPT for the policy holder (piano owner) who has had to endlessly argue with them over coverage, even having to hire an outside attorney specialist to deal with it!  For him, it's his worst nightmare. And it's still not over going on a year...fun fun fun. He thought he was covered...what can I say?  Big name famous insurance company everybody knows...

    Tom,

    Thanks for adding that positive experience.  That's a good one. Interesting though that on one of these you have the same company. 

    I am not "against" anyone having insurance (the term is a misnomer), but if it gives them peace of mind...to each his own.  There's something to be said for that. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: Business insurance?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-21-2022 23:43

    An LLC doesn't offer 100% protection and while it may protect your personal assets in most cases the company (you) is still liable for losses. Since liability insurance is so cheap I would probably carry it anyway or certainly look into situations in which you have exposure and make that decision fully informed.


    https://cenkuslaw.com/llc-corporation-liability-protection/



    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: Business insurance?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-22-2022 08:48
    After reviewing all of the posts, and contacting the insurance company, I have decided to retain the business insurance that I have had for decades. Back in 2002, I actually used the business insurance when my house had a washing machine hose burst when no one was home. Approximately $40,000 was paid by the homeowners policy for new floors, ceilings, walls, etc. and the business policy paid for piano part inventory stored at the house (around $2,000). The insurance company paid without any hassle.  While I find my situation differently in 2022 in regards with risk in business, for peace of mind and per your advise, it is worth the $580 annual premium. Thanks for everyone's input.

    ------------------------------
    Greg Junker RPT
    Greg Junker's Piano Shoppe, LLC
    Belleville IL
    (618) 971-9595
    ------------------------------



  • 30.  RE: Business insurance?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-22-2022 22:02
    Timely discussion. I was just thinking about this earlier this week. So my question is, who do y'all use for business insurance?

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
    Piano Technician / Artisan
    (256) 947-9999
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    ------------------------------