Pianotech

On one of the pianos I am working on the capstan line is not that same distance from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole from key 1 to key 88 on the white keys. On the bass keys the distance from the key balance pin back to the capstan hole is around 110.5mm. As you go up the keyboard this distance gradually slims down to 108mm. So, there is a 2.5mm difference between the bass and treble keys from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole.

The interesting thing here is that the capstan holes are the same distance from key 1 to 88 when measuring from the center of the capstan hole back to the to the back-check block. It looks like that is the measurement that was used to drill the capstan holes when the piano was constructed. 

From this state of things, the question arises as to which is the correct way to line up the capstan holes. Should all the capstan holes be the same distance from the center of the key balance pin from key 1-88 or not?

Thanks!!

On one of the pianos I am working on the capstan line is not that same distance from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole from key 1 to key 88 on the white keys. On the bass keys the distance from the key balance pin back to the capstan hole is around 110.5mm. As you go up the keyboard this distance gradually slims down to 108mm. So, there is a 2.5mm difference between the bass and treble keys from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole.

The interesting thing here is that the capstan holes are the same distance from key 1 to 88 when measuring from the center of the capstan hole back to the to the back-check block. It looks like that is the measurement that was used to drill the capstan holes when the piano was constructed. 

From this state of things, the question arises as to which is the correct way to line up the capstan holes. Should all the capstan holes be the same distance from the center of the key balance pin from key 1-88 or not?

Thanks!!

On one of the pianos I am working on the capstan line is not that same distance from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole from key 1 to key 88 on the white keys. On the bass keys the distance from the key balance pin back to the capstan hole is around 110.5mm. As you go up the keyboard this distance gradually slims down to 108mm. So, there is a 2.5mm difference between the bass and treble keys from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole.

The interesting thing here is that the capstan holes are the same distance from key 1 to 88 when measuring from the center of the capstan hole back to the to the back-check block. It looks like that is the measurement that was used to drill the capstan holes when the piano was constructed. 

From this state of things, the question arises as to which is the correct way to line up the capstan holes. Should all the capstan holes be the same distance from the center of the key balance pin from key 1-88 or not?

Thanks!!

On one of the pianos I am working on the capstan line is not that same distance from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole from key 1 to key 88 on the white keys. On the bass keys the distance from the key balance pin back to the capstan hole is around 110.5mm. As you go up the keyboard this distance gradually slims down to 108mm. So, there is a 2.5mm difference between the bass and treble keys from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole.

The interesting thing here is that the capstan holes are the same distance from key 1 to 88 when measuring from the center of the capstan hole back to the to the back-check block. It looks like that is the measurement that was used to drill the capstan holes when the piano was constructed. 

From this state of things, the question arises as to which is the correct way to line up the capstan holes. Should all the capstan holes be the same distance from the center of the key balance pin from key 1-88 or not?

Thanks!!

On one of the pianos I am working on the capstan line is not that same distance from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole from key 1 to key 88 on the white keys. On the bass keys the distance from the key balance pin back to the capstan hole is around 110.5mm. As you go up the keyboard this distance gradually slims down to 108mm. So, there is a 2.5mm difference between the bass and treble keys from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole.

The interesting thing here is that the capstan holes are the same distance from key 1 to 88 when measuring from the center of the capstan hole back to the to the back-check block. It looks like that is the measurement that was used to drill the capstan holes when the piano was constructed. 

From this state of things, the question arises as to which is the correct way to line up the capstan holes. Should all the capstan holes be the same distance from the center of the key balance pin from key 1-88 or not?

Thanks!!

On one of the pianos I am working on the capstan line is not that same distance from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole from key 1 to key 88 on the white keys. On the bass keys the distance from the key balance pin back to the capstan hole is around 110.5mm. As you go up the keyboard this distance gradually slims down to 108mm. So, there is a 2.5mm difference between the bass and treble keys from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole.

The interesting thing here is that the capstan holes are the same distance from key 1 to 88 when measuring from the center of the capstan hole back to the to the back-check block. It looks like that is the measurement that was used to drill the capstan holes when the piano was constructed. 

From this state of things, the question arises as to which is the correct way to line up the capstan holes. Should all the capstan holes be the same distance from the center of the key balance pin from key 1-88 or not?

Thanks!!

Just one comment, a slightly changing KR is not the end of the world.  It's not unusual to find this.  I have a Steinway B in the shop (1970s accelerated action type) that has a horrible key ratio, 5.5  in the bass but it graduates down to about 5.4 in the treble (still horrible).  Other than having to move the capstan because it's simply to0 high, the fact that it changes across the scale doesn't really worry me and I would not consider it a problem.  If the ratio were a more reasonable 5.2 graduating to 5.1, say, I wouldn't bother to change it at all.  On an older piano with slanted capstans I would because I prefer them to be 90 degrees to the key but not because the ratio changed.  That change will all get teased out in the smoothing of the SWs and FWs and the difference in regulation is not significant. 

Techs get hung up on these small inconsistencies, but I think that just goes with the territory (physical and psychological).  Don't sweat the small stuff, or is it the devil is in the details.  Life is full of contradictory advice.  Choose your battles.

On one of the pianos I am working on the capstan line is not that same distance from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole from key 1 to key 88 on the white keys. On the bass keys the distance from the key balance pin back to the capstan hole is around 110.5mm. As you go up the keyboard this distance gradually slims down to 108mm. So, there is a 2.5mm difference between the bass and treble keys from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole.

The interesting thing here is that the capstan holes are the same distance from key 1 to 88 when measuring from the center of the capstan hole back to the to the back-check block. It looks like that is the measurement that was used to drill the capstan holes when the piano was constructed. 

From this state of things, the question arises as to which is the correct way to line up the capstan holes. Should all the capstan holes be the same distance from the center of the key balance pin from key 1-88 or not?

Thanks!!

Just one comment, a slightly changing KR is not the end of the world.  It's not unusual to find this.  I have a Steinway B in the shop (1970s accelerated action type) that has a horrible key ratio, 5.5  in the bass but it graduates down to about 5.4 in the treble (still horrible).  Other than having to move the capstan because it's simply to0 high, the fact that it changes across the scale doesn't really worry me and I would not consider it a problem.  If the ratio were a more reasonable 5.2 graduating to 5.1, say, I wouldn't bother to change it at all.  On an older piano with slanted capstans I would because I prefer them to be 90 degrees to the key but not because the ratio changed.  That change will all get teased out in the smoothing of the SWs and FWs and the difference in regulation is not significant. 

Techs get hung up on these small inconsistencies, but I think that just goes with the territory (physical and psychological).  Don't sweat the small stuff, or is it the devil is in the details.  Life is full of contradictory advice.  Choose your battles.

On one of the pianos I am working on the capstan line is not that same distance from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole from key 1 to key 88 on the white keys. On the bass keys the distance from the key balance pin back to the capstan hole is around 110.5mm. As you go up the keyboard this distance gradually slims down to 108mm. So, there is a 2.5mm difference between the bass and treble keys from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole.

The interesting thing here is that the capstan holes are the same distance from key 1 to 88 when measuring from the center of the capstan hole back to the to the back-check block. It looks like that is the measurement that was used to drill the capstan holes when the piano was constructed. 

From this state of things, the question arises as to which is the correct way to line up the capstan holes. Should all the capstan holes be the same distance from the center of the key balance pin from key 1-88 or not?

Thanks!!

Agreed, within reason. The action I worked on had gross inconsistencies everywhere. Post WWI piano.

I had to get things straightened out before considering going any further. 

But, if Joe is talking about graduated key lengths, this would change accordingly. 

Just one comment, a slightly changing KR is not the end of the world.  It's not unusual to find this.  I have a Steinway B in the shop (1970s accelerated action type) that has a horrible key ratio, 5.5  in the bass but it graduates down to about 5.4 in the treble (still horrible).  Other than having to move the capstan because it's simply to0 high, the fact that it changes across the scale doesn't really worry me and I would not consider it a problem.  If the ratio were a more reasonable 5.2 graduating to 5.1, say, I wouldn't bother to change it at all.  On an older piano with slanted capstans I would because I prefer them to be 90 degrees to the key but not because the ratio changed.  That change will all get teased out in the smoothing of the SWs and FWs and the difference in regulation is not significant. 

Techs get hung up on these small inconsistencies, but I think that just goes with the territory (physical and psychological).  Don't sweat the small stuff, or is it the devil is in the details.  Life is full of contradictory advice.  Choose your battles.

On one of the pianos I am working on the capstan line is not that same distance from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole from key 1 to key 88 on the white keys. On the bass keys the distance from the key balance pin back to the capstan hole is around 110.5mm. As you go up the keyboard this distance gradually slims down to 108mm. So, there is a 2.5mm difference between the bass and treble keys from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole.

The interesting thing here is that the capstan holes are the same distance from key 1 to 88 when measuring from the center of the capstan hole back to the to the back-check block. It looks like that is the measurement that was used to drill the capstan holes when the piano was constructed. 

From this state of things, the question arises as to which is the correct way to line up the capstan holes. Should all the capstan holes be the same distance from the center of the key balance pin from key 1-88 or not?

Thanks!!

Hey George Davis, thanks for the tip about measuring. I was measuring from the top of the balance pin, which like you said is not accurate. So, on the lower bass keys, measuring from the bottom of the balance pin to the center of the capstan hole is 109.0-109.5mm. On the upper treble keys this distance is 108.0mm, about 1 to 1.5mm shorter. 

Then, as far as where the capstan center lines up with the wippen heal, on the bass side, the center of the capstan hole is 1-2mm further back into the heel of the wippen, than where it lines up with the upper treble wippen heal.  

So, the two measurement discrepancies above pretty much match up, which is great. It seems like the thing to do is to strike the new capstan line, so that it meets the wippen heal in the same place in the treble and the bass, in order to achieve a matching action ratio from keys 1-88. 

Does this seem right to everyone?

Agreed, within reason. The action I worked on had gross inconsistencies everywhere. Post WWI piano.

I had to get things straightened out before considering going any further. 

But, if Joe is talking about graduated key lengths, this would change accordingly. 

Just one comment, a slightly changing KR is not the end of the world.  It's not unusual to find this.  I have a Steinway B in the shop (1970s accelerated action type) that has a horrible key ratio, 5.5  in the bass but it graduates down to about 5.4 in the treble (still horrible).  Other than having to move the capstan because it's simply to0 high, the fact that it changes across the scale doesn't really worry me and I would not consider it a problem.  If the ratio were a more reasonable 5.2 graduating to 5.1, say, I wouldn't bother to change it at all.  On an older piano with slanted capstans I would because I prefer them to be 90 degrees to the key but not because the ratio changed.  That change will all get teased out in the smoothing of the SWs and FWs and the difference in regulation is not significant. 

Techs get hung up on these small inconsistencies, but I think that just goes with the territory (physical and psychological).  Don't sweat the small stuff, or is it the devil is in the details.  Life is full of contradictory advice.  Choose your battles.

On one of the pianos I am working on the capstan line is not that same distance from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole from key 1 to key 88 on the white keys. On the bass keys the distance from the key balance pin back to the capstan hole is around 110.5mm. As you go up the keyboard this distance gradually slims down to 108mm. So, there is a 2.5mm difference between the bass and treble keys from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole.

The interesting thing here is that the capstan holes are the same distance from key 1 to 88 when measuring from the center of the capstan hole back to the to the back-check block. It looks like that is the measurement that was used to drill the capstan holes when the piano was constructed. 

From this state of things, the question arises as to which is the correct way to line up the capstan holes. Should all the capstan holes be the same distance from the center of the key balance pin from key 1-88 or not?

Thanks!!

Original Message:
Sent: 8/14/2024 4:08:00 PM
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: RE: Capstan line from keys 1-88 is not even with the key balance pins. Should it be?

Hey George Davis, thanks for the tip about measuring. I was measuring from the top of the balance pin, which like you said is not accurate. So, on the lower bass keys, measuring from the bottom of the balance pin to the center of the capstan hole is 109.0-109.5mm. On the upper treble keys this distance is 108.0mm, about 1 to 1.5mm shorter. 

Then, as far as where the capstan center lines up with the wippen heal, on the bass side, the center of the capstan hole is 1-2mm further back into the heel of the wippen, than where it lines up with the upper treble wippen heal.  

So, the two measurement discrepancies above pretty much match up, which is great. It seems like the thing to do is to strike the new capstan line, so that it meets the wippen heal in the same place in the treble and the bass, in order to achieve a matching action ratio from keys 1-88. 

Does this seem right to everyone?

------------------------------
Joe Burros
Cell: 646-410-7174
jbcello@gmail.com
www.fmi-newengland.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2024 15:10
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Capstan line from keys 1-88 is not even with the key balance pins. Should it be?

Agreed, within reason. The action I worked on had gross inconsistencies everywhere. Post WWI piano.

I had to get things straightened out before considering going any further. 

But, if Joe is talking about graduated key lengths, this would change accordingly. 

------------------------------
Dave Conte, RPT

Piano Technician in Residence
The University of Tennessee
College of Music
Knoxville TN
(817) 307-5656
Owner: Rocky Top Piano

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2024 13:29
From: David Love
Subject: Capstan line from keys 1-88 is not even with the key balance pins. Should it be?

Just one comment, a slightly changing KR is not the end of the world.  It's not unusual to find this.  I have a Steinway B in the shop (1970s accelerated action type) that has a horrible key ratio, 5.5  in the bass but it graduates down to about 5.4 in the treble (still horrible).  Other than having to move the capstan because it's simply to0 high, the fact that it changes across the scale doesn't really worry me and I would not consider it a problem.  If the ratio were a more reasonable 5.2 graduating to 5.1, say, I wouldn't bother to change it at all.  On an older piano with slanted capstans I would because I prefer them to be 90 degrees to the key but not because the ratio changed.  That change will all get teased out in the smoothing of the SWs and FWs and the difference in regulation is not significant. 

Techs get hung up on these small inconsistencies, but I think that just goes with the territory (physical and psychological).  Don't sweat the small stuff, or is it the devil is in the details.  Life is full of contradictory advice.  Choose your battles.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2024 17:14
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Capstan line from keys 1-88 is not even with the key balance pins. Should it be?

On one of the pianos I am working on the capstan line is not that same distance from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole from key 1 to key 88 on the white keys. On the bass keys the distance from the key balance pin back to the capstan hole is around 110.5mm. As you go up the keyboard this distance gradually slims down to 108mm. So, there is a 2.5mm difference between the bass and treble keys from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole.

The interesting thing here is that the capstan holes are the same distance from key 1 to 88 when measuring from the center of the capstan hole back to the to the back-check block. It looks like that is the measurement that was used to drill the capstan holes when the piano was constructed. 

From this state of things, the question arises as to which is the correct way to line up the capstan holes. Should all the capstan holes be the same distance from the center of the key balance pin from key 1-88 or not?

Thanks!!

------------------------------
Joe Burros
Cell: 646-410-7174
jbcello@gmail.com
www.fmi-newengland.com
------------------------------

I have a 70's L here (Accel Action) with 4.6 to 4.7 varying throughout. A ton of lead in the keys, and plays like a truck. Actually feels better when I remove some of the lead near the BR. The capstan line varies up to 1.5mm randomly.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2024 18:05
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Capstan line from keys 1-88 is not even with the key balance pins. Should it be?

Original Message:
Sent: 8/14/2024 4:08:00 PM
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: RE: Capstan line from keys 1-88 is not even with the key balance pins. Should it be?

Hey George Davis, thanks for the tip about measuring. I was measuring from the top of the balance pin, which like you said is not accurate. So, on the lower bass keys, measuring from the bottom of the balance pin to the center of the capstan hole is 109.0-109.5mm. On the upper treble keys this distance is 108.0mm, about 1 to 1.5mm shorter. 

Then, as far as where the capstan center lines up with the wippen heal, on the bass side, the center of the capstan hole is 1-2mm further back into the heel of the wippen, than where it lines up with the upper treble wippen heal.  

So, the two measurement discrepancies above pretty much match up, which is great. It seems like the thing to do is to strike the new capstan line, so that it meets the wippen heal in the same place in the treble and the bass, in order to achieve a matching action ratio from keys 1-88. 

Does this seem right to everyone?

------------------------------
Joe Burros
Cell: 646-410-7174
jbcello@gmail.com
www.fmi-newengland.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2024 15:10
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Capstan line from keys 1-88 is not even with the key balance pins. Should it be?

Agreed, within reason. The action I worked on had gross inconsistencies everywhere. Post WWI piano.

I had to get things straightened out before considering going any further. 

But, if Joe is talking about graduated key lengths, this would change accordingly. 

------------------------------
Dave Conte, RPT

Piano Technician in Residence
The University of Tennessee
College of Music
Knoxville TN
(817) 307-5656
Owner: Rocky Top Piano

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2024 13:29
From: David Love
Subject: Capstan line from keys 1-88 is not even with the key balance pins. Should it be?

Just one comment, a slightly changing KR is not the end of the world.  It's not unusual to find this.  I have a Steinway B in the shop (1970s accelerated action type) that has a horrible key ratio, 5.5  in the bass but it graduates down to about 5.4 in the treble (still horrible).  Other than having to move the capstan because it's simply to0 high, the fact that it changes across the scale doesn't really worry me and I would not consider it a problem.  If the ratio were a more reasonable 5.2 graduating to 5.1, say, I wouldn't bother to change it at all.  On an older piano with slanted capstans I would because I prefer them to be 90 degrees to the key but not because the ratio changed.  That change will all get teased out in the smoothing of the SWs and FWs and the difference in regulation is not significant. 

Techs get hung up on these small inconsistencies, but I think that just goes with the territory (physical and psychological).  Don't sweat the small stuff, or is it the devil is in the details.  Life is full of contradictory advice.  Choose your battles.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2024 17:14
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Capstan line from keys 1-88 is not even with the key balance pins. Should it be?

On one of the pianos I am working on the capstan line is not that same distance from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole from key 1 to key 88 on the white keys. On the bass keys the distance from the key balance pin back to the capstan hole is around 110.5mm. As you go up the keyboard this distance gradually slims down to 108mm. So, there is a 2.5mm difference between the bass and treble keys from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole.

The interesting thing here is that the capstan holes are the same distance from key 1 to 88 when measuring from the center of the capstan hole back to the to the back-check block. It looks like that is the measurement that was used to drill the capstan holes when the piano was constructed. 

From this state of things, the question arises as to which is the correct way to line up the capstan holes. Should all the capstan holes be the same distance from the center of the key balance pin from key 1-88 or not?

Thanks!!

------------------------------
Joe Burros
Cell: 646-410-7174
jbcello@gmail.com
www.fmi-newengland.com
------------------------------

I have a 70's L here (Accel Action) with 4.6 to 4.7 varying throughout. A ton of lead in the keys, and plays like a truck. Actually feels better when I remove some of the lead near the BR. The capstan line varies up to 1.5mm randomly.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2024 18:05
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Capstan line from keys 1-88 is not even with the key balance pins. Should it be?

Original Message:
Sent: 8/14/2024 4:08:00 PM
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: RE: Capstan line from keys 1-88 is not even with the key balance pins. Should it be?

Hey George Davis, thanks for the tip about measuring. I was measuring from the top of the balance pin, which like you said is not accurate. So, on the lower bass keys, measuring from the bottom of the balance pin to the center of the capstan hole is 109.0-109.5mm. On the upper treble keys this distance is 108.0mm, about 1 to 1.5mm shorter. 

Then, as far as where the capstan center lines up with the wippen heal, on the bass side, the center of the capstan hole is 1-2mm further back into the heel of the wippen, than where it lines up with the upper treble wippen heal.  

So, the two measurement discrepancies above pretty much match up, which is great. It seems like the thing to do is to strike the new capstan line, so that it meets the wippen heal in the same place in the treble and the bass, in order to achieve a matching action ratio from keys 1-88. 

Does this seem right to everyone?

------------------------------
Joe Burros
Cell: 646-410-7174
jbcello@gmail.com
www.fmi-newengland.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2024 15:10
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Capstan line from keys 1-88 is not even with the key balance pins. Should it be?

Agreed, within reason. The action I worked on had gross inconsistencies everywhere. Post WWI piano.

I had to get things straightened out before considering going any further. 

But, if Joe is talking about graduated key lengths, this would change accordingly. 

------------------------------
Dave Conte, RPT

Piano Technician in Residence
The University of Tennessee
College of Music
Knoxville TN
(817) 307-5656
Owner: Rocky Top Piano

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2024 13:29
From: David Love
Subject: Capstan line from keys 1-88 is not even with the key balance pins. Should it be?

Just one comment, a slightly changing KR is not the end of the world.  It's not unusual to find this.  I have a Steinway B in the shop (1970s accelerated action type) that has a horrible key ratio, 5.5  in the bass but it graduates down to about 5.4 in the treble (still horrible).  Other than having to move the capstan because it's simply to0 high, the fact that it changes across the scale doesn't really worry me and I would not consider it a problem.  If the ratio were a more reasonable 5.2 graduating to 5.1, say, I wouldn't bother to change it at all.  On an older piano with slanted capstans I would because I prefer them to be 90 degrees to the key but not because the ratio changed.  That change will all get teased out in the smoothing of the SWs and FWs and the difference in regulation is not significant. 

Techs get hung up on these small inconsistencies, but I think that just goes with the territory (physical and psychological).  Don't sweat the small stuff, or is it the devil is in the details.  Life is full of contradictory advice.  Choose your battles.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2024 17:14
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Capstan line from keys 1-88 is not even with the key balance pins. Should it be?

On one of the pianos I am working on the capstan line is not that same distance from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole from key 1 to key 88 on the white keys. On the bass keys the distance from the key balance pin back to the capstan hole is around 110.5mm. As you go up the keyboard this distance gradually slims down to 108mm. So, there is a 2.5mm difference between the bass and treble keys from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole.

The interesting thing here is that the capstan holes are the same distance from key 1 to 88 when measuring from the center of the capstan hole back to the to the back-check block. It looks like that is the measurement that was used to drill the capstan holes when the piano was constructed. 

From this state of things, the question arises as to which is the correct way to line up the capstan holes. Should all the capstan holes be the same distance from the center of the key balance pin from key 1-88 or not?

Thanks!!

------------------------------
Joe Burros
Cell: 646-410-7174
jbcello@gmail.com
www.fmi-newengland.com
------------------------------

I have a 70's L here (Accel Action) with 4.6 to 4.7 varying throughout. A ton of lead in the keys, and plays like a truck. Actually feels better when I remove some of the lead near the BR. The capstan line varies up to 1.5mm randomly.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2024 18:05
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Capstan line from keys 1-88 is not even with the key balance pins. Should it be?

Original Message:
Sent: 8/14/2024 4:08:00 PM
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: RE: Capstan line from keys 1-88 is not even with the key balance pins. Should it be?

Hey George Davis, thanks for the tip about measuring. I was measuring from the top of the balance pin, which like you said is not accurate. So, on the lower bass keys, measuring from the bottom of the balance pin to the center of the capstan hole is 109.0-109.5mm. On the upper treble keys this distance is 108.0mm, about 1 to 1.5mm shorter. 

Then, as far as where the capstan center lines up with the wippen heal, on the bass side, the center of the capstan hole is 1-2mm further back into the heel of the wippen, than where it lines up with the upper treble wippen heal.  

So, the two measurement discrepancies above pretty much match up, which is great. It seems like the thing to do is to strike the new capstan line, so that it meets the wippen heal in the same place in the treble and the bass, in order to achieve a matching action ratio from keys 1-88. 

Does this seem right to everyone?

------------------------------
Joe Burros
Cell: 646-410-7174
jbcello@gmail.com
www.fmi-newengland.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2024 15:10
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Capstan line from keys 1-88 is not even with the key balance pins. Should it be?

Agreed, within reason. The action I worked on had gross inconsistencies everywhere. Post WWI piano.

I had to get things straightened out before considering going any further. 

But, if Joe is talking about graduated key lengths, this would change accordingly. 

------------------------------
Dave Conte, RPT

Piano Technician in Residence
The University of Tennessee
College of Music
Knoxville TN
(817) 307-5656
Owner: Rocky Top Piano

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2024 13:29
From: David Love
Subject: Capstan line from keys 1-88 is not even with the key balance pins. Should it be?

Just one comment, a slightly changing KR is not the end of the world.  It's not unusual to find this.  I have a Steinway B in the shop (1970s accelerated action type) that has a horrible key ratio, 5.5  in the bass but it graduates down to about 5.4 in the treble (still horrible).  Other than having to move the capstan because it's simply to0 high, the fact that it changes across the scale doesn't really worry me and I would not consider it a problem.  If the ratio were a more reasonable 5.2 graduating to 5.1, say, I wouldn't bother to change it at all.  On an older piano with slanted capstans I would because I prefer them to be 90 degrees to the key but not because the ratio changed.  That change will all get teased out in the smoothing of the SWs and FWs and the difference in regulation is not significant. 

Techs get hung up on these small inconsistencies, but I think that just goes with the territory (physical and psychological).  Don't sweat the small stuff, or is it the devil is in the details.  Life is full of contradictory advice.  Choose your battles.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2024 17:14
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Capstan line from keys 1-88 is not even with the key balance pins. Should it be?

On one of the pianos I am working on the capstan line is not that same distance from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole from key 1 to key 88 on the white keys. On the bass keys the distance from the key balance pin back to the capstan hole is around 110.5mm. As you go up the keyboard this distance gradually slims down to 108mm. So, there is a 2.5mm difference between the bass and treble keys from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole.

The interesting thing here is that the capstan holes are the same distance from key 1 to 88 when measuring from the center of the capstan hole back to the to the back-check block. It looks like that is the measurement that was used to drill the capstan holes when the piano was constructed. 

From this state of things, the question arises as to which is the correct way to line up the capstan holes. Should all the capstan holes be the same distance from the center of the key balance pin from key 1-88 or not?

Thanks!!

------------------------------
Joe Burros
Cell: 646-410-7174
jbcello@gmail.com
www.fmi-newengland.com
------------------------------

I have a 70's L here (Accel Action) with 4.6 to 4.7 varying throughout. A ton of lead in the keys, and plays like a truck. Actually feels better when I remove some of the lead near the BR. The capstan line varies up to 1.5mm randomly.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2024 18:05
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Capstan line from keys 1-88 is not even with the key balance pins. Should it be?

Original Message:
Sent: 8/14/2024 4:08:00 PM
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: RE: Capstan line from keys 1-88 is not even with the key balance pins. Should it be?

Hey George Davis, thanks for the tip about measuring. I was measuring from the top of the balance pin, which like you said is not accurate. So, on the lower bass keys, measuring from the bottom of the balance pin to the center of the capstan hole is 109.0-109.5mm. On the upper treble keys this distance is 108.0mm, about 1 to 1.5mm shorter. 

Then, as far as where the capstan center lines up with the wippen heal, on the bass side, the center of the capstan hole is 1-2mm further back into the heel of the wippen, than where it lines up with the upper treble wippen heal.  

So, the two measurement discrepancies above pretty much match up, which is great. It seems like the thing to do is to strike the new capstan line, so that it meets the wippen heal in the same place in the treble and the bass, in order to achieve a matching action ratio from keys 1-88. 

Does this seem right to everyone?

------------------------------
Joe Burros
Cell: 646-410-7174
jbcello@gmail.com
www.fmi-newengland.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2024 15:10
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Capstan line from keys 1-88 is not even with the key balance pins. Should it be?

Agreed, within reason. The action I worked on had gross inconsistencies everywhere. Post WWI piano.

I had to get things straightened out before considering going any further. 

But, if Joe is talking about graduated key lengths, this would change accordingly. 

------------------------------
Dave Conte, RPT

Piano Technician in Residence
The University of Tennessee
College of Music
Knoxville TN
(817) 307-5656
Owner: Rocky Top Piano

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2024 13:29
From: David Love
Subject: Capstan line from keys 1-88 is not even with the key balance pins. Should it be?

Just one comment, a slightly changing KR is not the end of the world.  It's not unusual to find this.  I have a Steinway B in the shop (1970s accelerated action type) that has a horrible key ratio, 5.5  in the bass but it graduates down to about 5.4 in the treble (still horrible).  Other than having to move the capstan because it's simply to0 high, the fact that it changes across the scale doesn't really worry me and I would not consider it a problem.  If the ratio were a more reasonable 5.2 graduating to 5.1, say, I wouldn't bother to change it at all.  On an older piano with slanted capstans I would because I prefer them to be 90 degrees to the key but not because the ratio changed.  That change will all get teased out in the smoothing of the SWs and FWs and the difference in regulation is not significant. 

Techs get hung up on these small inconsistencies, but I think that just goes with the territory (physical and psychological).  Don't sweat the small stuff, or is it the devil is in the details.  Life is full of contradictory advice.  Choose your battles.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2024 17:14
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Capstan line from keys 1-88 is not even with the key balance pins. Should it be?

On one of the pianos I am working on the capstan line is not that same distance from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole from key 1 to key 88 on the white keys. On the bass keys the distance from the key balance pin back to the capstan hole is around 110.5mm. As you go up the keyboard this distance gradually slims down to 108mm. So, there is a 2.5mm difference between the bass and treble keys from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole.

The interesting thing here is that the capstan holes are the same distance from key 1 to 88 when measuring from the center of the capstan hole back to the to the back-check block. It looks like that is the measurement that was used to drill the capstan holes when the piano was constructed. 

From this state of things, the question arises as to which is the correct way to line up the capstan holes. Should all the capstan holes be the same distance from the center of the key balance pin from key 1-88 or not?

Thanks!!

------------------------------
Joe Burros
Cell: 646-410-7174
jbcello@gmail.com
www.fmi-newengland.com
------------------------------

This illustrates one of the problems in this entire arena. The 4.6 to 4.7 action ratio in most methods of measuring the action ratio would be extremely low. It would not result in excess leading or an action that plays like a truck. Quite the contrary. 

Similarly, Joe's method of measuring the key ratio, as we can see, is inconsistent with the proper way of measuring distance ratios, and I would guess that if you asked five people in this list how they measure the key ratio, you would get five different answers.

This is where using a weight based system Is sometimes easier and more consistent. I would suggest that Joe use the Stanwood method of measuring the key ratio.  That method would be to put the key on a scale as if you're measuring the front weight, tare the scale (set it to zero), and then put two nickels, one nickel on either side of the capstan (a nickel weighs 5 g) and read the display. You should get a reading of something like -5.to -5.5 or something like that. A reading of -5 means the key ratio is 2:1.  Do that at the both ends of the scale and tell us what it is.

On most pianos the AR is influenced most by the KR and the knuckle placement. In the Steinway accelerated action era you generally have a high KR combined with a 16 mm knuckle hanging. Bad combination. Removing lead near the balance rail will not lower the inertia (myth). It will simply increase the balance weight. Not a good solution.

The only solutions are: remove weight from the hammers (probably can't do that adequately), change the knuckle placement, and or change the capstan location. On the Steinway I'm working on I had to do all three and because the KR was so bad, I had to move  the capstan to the very front of the wippen  heel which then required me to add a strip of felt to the heel so the capstan didn't contract the wood edge. Even then, I could only reduce the KR to .52 so the hammers still needed to be fairly light even with a17 mm knuckle. 

This is a Stein-was that resulted from the Stein-way and something that needs to be modified. 

I have a 70's L here (Accel Action) with 4.6 to 4.7 varying throughout. A ton of lead in the keys, and plays like a truck. Actually feels better when I remove some of the lead near the BR. The capstan line varies up to 1.5mm randomly.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2024 18:05
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Capstan line from keys 1-88 is not even with the key balance pins. Should it be?

Original Message:
Sent: 8/14/2024 4:08:00 PM
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: RE: Capstan line from keys 1-88 is not even with the key balance pins. Should it be?

Hey George Davis, thanks for the tip about measuring. I was measuring from the top of the balance pin, which like you said is not accurate. So, on the lower bass keys, measuring from the bottom of the balance pin to the center of the capstan hole is 109.0-109.5mm. On the upper treble keys this distance is 108.0mm, about 1 to 1.5mm shorter. 

Then, as far as where the capstan center lines up with the wippen heal, on the bass side, the center of the capstan hole is 1-2mm further back into the heel of the wippen, than where it lines up with the upper treble wippen heal.  

So, the two measurement discrepancies above pretty much match up, which is great. It seems like the thing to do is to strike the new capstan line, so that it meets the wippen heal in the same place in the treble and the bass, in order to achieve a matching action ratio from keys 1-88. 

Does this seem right to everyone?

------------------------------
Joe Burros
Cell: 646-410-7174
jbcello@gmail.com
www.fmi-newengland.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2024 15:10
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Capstan line from keys 1-88 is not even with the key balance pins. Should it be?

Agreed, within reason. The action I worked on had gross inconsistencies everywhere. Post WWI piano.

I had to get things straightened out before considering going any further. 

But, if Joe is talking about graduated key lengths, this would change accordingly. 

------------------------------
Dave Conte, RPT

Piano Technician in Residence
The University of Tennessee
College of Music
Knoxville TN
(817) 307-5656
Owner: Rocky Top Piano

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2024 13:29
From: David Love
Subject: Capstan line from keys 1-88 is not even with the key balance pins. Should it be?

Just one comment, a slightly changing KR is not the end of the world.  It's not unusual to find this.  I have a Steinway B in the shop (1970s accelerated action type) that has a horrible key ratio, 5.5  in the bass but it graduates down to about 5.4 in the treble (still horrible).  Other than having to move the capstan because it's simply to0 high, the fact that it changes across the scale doesn't really worry me and I would not consider it a problem.  If the ratio were a more reasonable 5.2 graduating to 5.1, say, I wouldn't bother to change it at all.  On an older piano with slanted capstans I would because I prefer them to be 90 degrees to the key but not because the ratio changed.  That change will all get teased out in the smoothing of the SWs and FWs and the difference in regulation is not significant. 

Techs get hung up on these small inconsistencies, but I think that just goes with the territory (physical and psychological).  Don't sweat the small stuff, or is it the devil is in the details.  Life is full of contradictory advice.  Choose your battles.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2024 17:14
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Capstan line from keys 1-88 is not even with the key balance pins. Should it be?

On one of the pianos I am working on the capstan line is not that same distance from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole from key 1 to key 88 on the white keys. On the bass keys the distance from the key balance pin back to the capstan hole is around 110.5mm. As you go up the keyboard this distance gradually slims down to 108mm. So, there is a 2.5mm difference between the bass and treble keys from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole.

The interesting thing here is that the capstan holes are the same distance from key 1 to 88 when measuring from the center of the capstan hole back to the to the back-check block. It looks like that is the measurement that was used to drill the capstan holes when the piano was constructed. 

From this state of things, the question arises as to which is the correct way to line up the capstan holes. Should all the capstan holes be the same distance from the center of the key balance pin from key 1-88 or not?

Thanks!!

------------------------------
Joe Burros
Cell: 646-410-7174
jbcello@gmail.com
www.fmi-newengland.com
------------------------------

Thanks David for your input.

I have been measuring the distance ratio using the formula (Blow-Letoff) / (Dip-Aftertouch) = AR

I just now measured the AR using David's suggested technique of using two nickels. I have the Stanwood measuring table, which I used for the measurement. 

This is for a 1922 Steinway O. I had previously relocated the capstans on all the C-notes, which I used for test notes, following David Love's protocol for determining the proper hammer weight at a 38 balanceweight. Now, I am working on relocating the rest of the capstans. The keys on this Steinway O did not have many weights in the keys. And it currently has newish Abel shanks with16mm knuckles. (I have not yet evaluated the Steinway L that I mentioned, which has lots of weights in the keys.)

AR Measurements for original angled capstan line, using two nickels:

Key #1 Ratio: .485 ; Key #88 Ratio: .475

AR Measurement for New Capstan position, using two nickels:

Key #1 Ratio: .50 ; Key #88 Ratio: .50

As I wrote before, moving the capstan line will also take the key ratio closer to 2 to 1. The key ratio will end up 240mm from front of key to balance pin, and 115mm from balance pin to capstan center, a .48 ratio. Key ratio with current angled capstans is 240mm and 110-111mm, a .46 ratio.

------------------------------
Joe Burros
Cell: 646-410-7174
jbcello@gmail.com
www.fmi-newengland.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-15-2024 10:23
From: David Love
Subject: Capstan line from keys 1-88 is not even with the key balance pins. Should it be?

This illustrates one of the problems in this entire arena. The 4.6 to 4.7 action ratio in most methods of measuring the action ratio would be extremely low. It would not result in excess leading or an action that plays like a truck. Quite the contrary. 

Similarly, Joe's method of measuring the key ratio, as we can see, is inconsistent with the proper way of measuring distance ratios, and I would guess that if you asked five people in this list how they measure the key ratio, you would get five different answers.

This is where using a weight based system Is sometimes easier and more consistent. I would suggest that Joe use the Stanwood method of measuring the key ratio.  That method would be to put the key on a scale as if you're measuring the front weight, tare the scale (set it to zero), and then put two nickels, one nickel on either side of the capstan (a nickel weighs 5 g) and read the display. You should get a reading of something like -5.to -5.5 or something like that. A reading of -5 means the key ratio is 2:1.  Do that at the both ends of the scale and tell us what it is.

On most pianos the AR is influenced most by the KR and the knuckle placement. In the Steinway accelerated action era you generally have a high KR combined with a 16 mm knuckle hanging. Bad combination. Removing lead near the balance rail will not lower the inertia (myth). It will simply increase the balance weight. Not a good solution.

The only solutions are: remove weight from the hammers (probably can't do that adequately), change the knuckle placement, and or change the capstan location. On the Steinway I'm working on I had to do all three and because the KR was so bad, I had to move  the capstan to the very front of the wippen  heel which then required me to add a strip of felt to the heel so the capstan didn't contract the wood edge. Even then, I could only reduce the KR to .52 so the hammers still needed to be fairly light even with a17 mm knuckle. 

This is a Stein-was that resulted from the Stein-way and something that needs to be modified. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2024 18:32
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Capstan line from keys 1-88 is not even with the key balance pins. Should it be?

I have a 70's L here (Accel Action) with 4.6 to 4.7 varying throughout. A ton of lead in the keys, and plays like a truck. Actually feels better when I remove some of the lead near the BR. The capstan line varies up to 1.5mm randomly.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2024 18:05
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Capstan line from keys 1-88 is not even with the key balance pins. Should it be?

Original Message:
Sent: 8/14/2024 4:08:00 PM
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: RE: Capstan line from keys 1-88 is not even with the key balance pins. Should it be?

Hey George Davis, thanks for the tip about measuring. I was measuring from the top of the balance pin, which like you said is not accurate. So, on the lower bass keys, measuring from the bottom of the balance pin to the center of the capstan hole is 109.0-109.5mm. On the upper treble keys this distance is 108.0mm, about 1 to 1.5mm shorter. 

Then, as far as where the capstan center lines up with the wippen heal, on the bass side, the center of the capstan hole is 1-2mm further back into the heel of the wippen, than where it lines up with the upper treble wippen heal.  

So, the two measurement discrepancies above pretty much match up, which is great. It seems like the thing to do is to strike the new capstan line, so that it meets the wippen heal in the same place in the treble and the bass, in order to achieve a matching action ratio from keys 1-88. 

Does this seem right to everyone?

------------------------------
Joe Burros
Cell: 646-410-7174
jbcello@gmail.com
www.fmi-newengland.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2024 15:10
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Capstan line from keys 1-88 is not even with the key balance pins. Should it be?

Agreed, within reason. The action I worked on had gross inconsistencies everywhere. Post WWI piano.

I had to get things straightened out before considering going any further. 

But, if Joe is talking about graduated key lengths, this would change accordingly. 

------------------------------
Dave Conte, RPT

Piano Technician in Residence
The University of Tennessee
College of Music
Knoxville TN
(817) 307-5656
Owner: Rocky Top Piano

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2024 13:29
From: David Love
Subject: Capstan line from keys 1-88 is not even with the key balance pins. Should it be?

Just one comment, a slightly changing KR is not the end of the world.  It's not unusual to find this.  I have a Steinway B in the shop (1970s accelerated action type) that has a horrible key ratio, 5.5  in the bass but it graduates down to about 5.4 in the treble (still horrible).  Other than having to move the capstan because it's simply to0 high, the fact that it changes across the scale doesn't really worry me and I would not consider it a problem.  If the ratio were a more reasonable 5.2 graduating to 5.1, say, I wouldn't bother to change it at all.  On an older piano with slanted capstans I would because I prefer them to be 90 degrees to the key but not because the ratio changed.  That change will all get teased out in the smoothing of the SWs and FWs and the difference in regulation is not significant. 

Techs get hung up on these small inconsistencies, but I think that just goes with the territory (physical and psychological).  Don't sweat the small stuff, or is it the devil is in the details.  Life is full of contradictory advice.  Choose your battles.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2024 17:14
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Capstan line from keys 1-88 is not even with the key balance pins. Should it be?

On one of the pianos I am working on the capstan line is not that same distance from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole from key 1 to key 88 on the white keys. On the bass keys the distance from the key balance pin back to the capstan hole is around 110.5mm. As you go up the keyboard this distance gradually slims down to 108mm. So, there is a 2.5mm difference between the bass and treble keys from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole.

The interesting thing here is that the capstan holes are the same distance from key 1 to 88 when measuring from the center of the capstan hole back to the to the back-check block. It looks like that is the measurement that was used to drill the capstan holes when the piano was constructed. 

From this state of things, the question arises as to which is the correct way to line up the capstan holes. Should all the capstan holes be the same distance from the center of the key balance pin from key 1-88 or not?

Thanks!!

------------------------------
Joe Burros
Cell: 646-410-7174
jbcello@gmail.com
www.fmi-newengland.com
------------------------------

Hey George Davis, thanks for the tip about measuring. I was measuring from the top of the balance pin, which like you said is not accurate. So, on the lower bass keys, measuring from the bottom of the balance pin to the center of the capstan hole is 109.0-109.5mm. On the upper treble keys this distance is 108.0mm, about 1 to 1.5mm shorter. 

Then, as far as where the capstan center lines up with the wippen heal, on the bass side, the center of the capstan hole is 1-2mm further back into the heel of the wippen, than where it lines up with the upper treble wippen heal.  

So, the two measurement discrepancies above pretty much match up, which is great. It seems like the thing to do is to strike the new capstan line, so that it meets the wippen heal in the same place in the treble and the bass, in order to achieve a matching action ratio from keys 1-88. 

Does this seem right to everyone?

Agreed, within reason. The action I worked on had gross inconsistencies everywhere. Post WWI piano.

I had to get things straightened out before considering going any further. 

But, if Joe is talking about graduated key lengths, this would change accordingly. 

Just one comment, a slightly changing KR is not the end of the world.  It's not unusual to find this.  I have a Steinway B in the shop (1970s accelerated action type) that has a horrible key ratio, 5.5  in the bass but it graduates down to about 5.4 in the treble (still horrible).  Other than having to move the capstan because it's simply to0 high, the fact that it changes across the scale doesn't really worry me and I would not consider it a problem.  If the ratio were a more reasonable 5.2 graduating to 5.1, say, I wouldn't bother to change it at all.  On an older piano with slanted capstans I would because I prefer them to be 90 degrees to the key but not because the ratio changed.  That change will all get teased out in the smoothing of the SWs and FWs and the difference in regulation is not significant. 

Techs get hung up on these small inconsistencies, but I think that just goes with the territory (physical and psychological).  Don't sweat the small stuff, or is it the devil is in the details.  Life is full of contradictory advice.  Choose your battles.

On one of the pianos I am working on the capstan line is not that same distance from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole from key 1 to key 88 on the white keys. On the bass keys the distance from the key balance pin back to the capstan hole is around 110.5mm. As you go up the keyboard this distance gradually slims down to 108mm. So, there is a 2.5mm difference between the bass and treble keys from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole.

The interesting thing here is that the capstan holes are the same distance from key 1 to 88 when measuring from the center of the capstan hole back to the to the back-check block. It looks like that is the measurement that was used to drill the capstan holes when the piano was constructed. 

From this state of things, the question arises as to which is the correct way to line up the capstan holes. Should all the capstan holes be the same distance from the center of the key balance pin from key 1-88 or not?

Thanks!!

The capstans need to be moved anyway, so I might as well move them so that they hit the wippen heal at the same place in the bass and treble. Otherwise, I agree, that if they did not need moving, I would just leave it the way it is. Thanks for your help.

Hey George Davis, thanks for the tip about measuring. I was measuring from the top of the balance pin, which like you said is not accurate. So, on the lower bass keys, measuring from the bottom of the balance pin to the center of the capstan hole is 109.0-109.5mm. On the upper treble keys this distance is 108.0mm, about 1 to 1.5mm shorter. 

Then, as far as where the capstan center lines up with the wippen heal, on the bass side, the center of the capstan hole is 1-2mm further back into the heel of the wippen, than where it lines up with the upper treble wippen heal.  

So, the two measurement discrepancies above pretty much match up, which is great. It seems like the thing to do is to strike the new capstan line, so that it meets the wippen heal in the same place in the treble and the bass, in order to achieve a matching action ratio from keys 1-88. 

Does this seem right to everyone?

Agreed, within reason. The action I worked on had gross inconsistencies everywhere. Post WWI piano.

I had to get things straightened out before considering going any further. 

But, if Joe is talking about graduated key lengths, this would change accordingly. 

Just one comment, a slightly changing KR is not the end of the world.  It's not unusual to find this.  I have a Steinway B in the shop (1970s accelerated action type) that has a horrible key ratio, 5.5  in the bass but it graduates down to about 5.4 in the treble (still horrible).  Other than having to move the capstan because it's simply to0 high, the fact that it changes across the scale doesn't really worry me and I would not consider it a problem.  If the ratio were a more reasonable 5.2 graduating to 5.1, say, I wouldn't bother to change it at all.  On an older piano with slanted capstans I would because I prefer them to be 90 degrees to the key but not because the ratio changed.  That change will all get teased out in the smoothing of the SWs and FWs and the difference in regulation is not significant. 

Techs get hung up on these small inconsistencies, but I think that just goes with the territory (physical and psychological).  Don't sweat the small stuff, or is it the devil is in the details.  Life is full of contradictory advice.  Choose your battles.

On one of the pianos I am working on the capstan line is not that same distance from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole from key 1 to key 88 on the white keys. On the bass keys the distance from the key balance pin back to the capstan hole is around 110.5mm. As you go up the keyboard this distance gradually slims down to 108mm. So, there is a 2.5mm difference between the bass and treble keys from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole.

The interesting thing here is that the capstan holes are the same distance from key 1 to 88 when measuring from the center of the capstan hole back to the to the back-check block. It looks like that is the measurement that was used to drill the capstan holes when the piano was constructed. 

From this state of things, the question arises as to which is the correct way to line up the capstan holes. Should all the capstan holes be the same distance from the center of the key balance pin from key 1-88 or not?

Thanks!!

The capstans need to be moved anyway, so I might as well move them so that they hit the wippen heal at the same place in the bass and treble. Otherwise, I agree, that if they did not need moving, I would just leave it the way it is. Thanks for your help.

Hey George Davis, thanks for the tip about measuring. I was measuring from the top of the balance pin, which like you said is not accurate. So, on the lower bass keys, measuring from the bottom of the balance pin to the center of the capstan hole is 109.0-109.5mm. On the upper treble keys this distance is 108.0mm, about 1 to 1.5mm shorter. 

Then, as far as where the capstan center lines up with the wippen heal, on the bass side, the center of the capstan hole is 1-2mm further back into the heel of the wippen, than where it lines up with the upper treble wippen heal.  

So, the two measurement discrepancies above pretty much match up, which is great. It seems like the thing to do is to strike the new capstan line, so that it meets the wippen heal in the same place in the treble and the bass, in order to achieve a matching action ratio from keys 1-88. 

Does this seem right to everyone?

Agreed, within reason. The action I worked on had gross inconsistencies everywhere. Post WWI piano.

I had to get things straightened out before considering going any further. 

But, if Joe is talking about graduated key lengths, this would change accordingly. 

Just one comment, a slightly changing KR is not the end of the world.  It's not unusual to find this.  I have a Steinway B in the shop (1970s accelerated action type) that has a horrible key ratio, 5.5  in the bass but it graduates down to about 5.4 in the treble (still horrible).  Other than having to move the capstan because it's simply to0 high, the fact that it changes across the scale doesn't really worry me and I would not consider it a problem.  If the ratio were a more reasonable 5.2 graduating to 5.1, say, I wouldn't bother to change it at all.  On an older piano with slanted capstans I would because I prefer them to be 90 degrees to the key but not because the ratio changed.  That change will all get teased out in the smoothing of the SWs and FWs and the difference in regulation is not significant. 

Techs get hung up on these small inconsistencies, but I think that just goes with the territory (physical and psychological).  Don't sweat the small stuff, or is it the devil is in the details.  Life is full of contradictory advice.  Choose your battles.

On one of the pianos I am working on the capstan line is not that same distance from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole from key 1 to key 88 on the white keys. On the bass keys the distance from the key balance pin back to the capstan hole is around 110.5mm. As you go up the keyboard this distance gradually slims down to 108mm. So, there is a 2.5mm difference between the bass and treble keys from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole.

The interesting thing here is that the capstan holes are the same distance from key 1 to 88 when measuring from the center of the capstan hole back to the to the back-check block. It looks like that is the measurement that was used to drill the capstan holes when the piano was constructed. 

From this state of things, the question arises as to which is the correct way to line up the capstan holes. Should all the capstan holes be the same distance from the center of the key balance pin from key 1-88 or not?

Thanks!!

The capstans need to be moved so that I can get a 10mm dip with a 1.25 aftertouch, while getting a blow distance of 45mm. Right now, the blow distance is too shallow with the current capstan line. And the current capstans are at an angle and hit towards the front of the wippen heal felt. I am going to straighten them out and move them back, so they hit more towards the center of the wippen heal cushion and give me a blow distance of 45mm. I have tested this inside the piano with sample hammers that have the proper bore distance, with the action properly regulated.

Moving the capstan line will also take the key ratio closer to 2 to 1. The key ratio will end up 240mm from front of key to balance pin, and 115mm from balance pin to capstan center, a .48 ratio. Key ratio with current angled capstans is 240mm and 110-111mm, a .46 ratio.

Given those measurements, does a capstan line move seem like a good idea? Right now, I am being very nitpicky about details in order to get the best possible results. As I gain more experience, I will learn which areas of the action work need a high level of fussiness/accuracy and which areas don't need this. The is a piano that I own, that I am preparing to sell. It is not a customer's piano, so I have the luxury of taking the time to see how good I can get it to play and sound. 

The capstans need to be moved anyway, so I might as well move them so that they hit the wippen heal at the same place in the bass and treble. Otherwise, I agree, that if they did not need moving, I would just leave it the way it is. Thanks for your help.

Hey George Davis, thanks for the tip about measuring. I was measuring from the top of the balance pin, which like you said is not accurate. So, on the lower bass keys, measuring from the bottom of the balance pin to the center of the capstan hole is 109.0-109.5mm. On the upper treble keys this distance is 108.0mm, about 1 to 1.5mm shorter. 

Then, as far as where the capstan center lines up with the wippen heal, on the bass side, the center of the capstan hole is 1-2mm further back into the heel of the wippen, than where it lines up with the upper treble wippen heal.  

So, the two measurement discrepancies above pretty much match up, which is great. It seems like the thing to do is to strike the new capstan line, so that it meets the wippen heal in the same place in the treble and the bass, in order to achieve a matching action ratio from keys 1-88. 

Does this seem right to everyone?

Agreed, within reason. The action I worked on had gross inconsistencies everywhere. Post WWI piano.

I had to get things straightened out before considering going any further. 

But, if Joe is talking about graduated key lengths, this would change accordingly. 

Just one comment, a slightly changing KR is not the end of the world.  It's not unusual to find this.  I have a Steinway B in the shop (1970s accelerated action type) that has a horrible key ratio, 5.5  in the bass but it graduates down to about 5.4 in the treble (still horrible).  Other than having to move the capstan because it's simply to0 high, the fact that it changes across the scale doesn't really worry me and I would not consider it a problem.  If the ratio were a more reasonable 5.2 graduating to 5.1, say, I wouldn't bother to change it at all.  On an older piano with slanted capstans I would because I prefer them to be 90 degrees to the key but not because the ratio changed.  That change will all get teased out in the smoothing of the SWs and FWs and the difference in regulation is not significant. 

Techs get hung up on these small inconsistencies, but I think that just goes with the territory (physical and psychological).  Don't sweat the small stuff, or is it the devil is in the details.  Life is full of contradictory advice.  Choose your battles.

On one of the pianos I am working on the capstan line is not that same distance from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole from key 1 to key 88 on the white keys. On the bass keys the distance from the key balance pin back to the capstan hole is around 110.5mm. As you go up the keyboard this distance gradually slims down to 108mm. So, there is a 2.5mm difference between the bass and treble keys from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole.

The interesting thing here is that the capstan holes are the same distance from key 1 to 88 when measuring from the center of the capstan hole back to the to the back-check block. It looks like that is the measurement that was used to drill the capstan holes when the piano was constructed. 

From this state of things, the question arises as to which is the correct way to line up the capstan holes. Should all the capstan holes be the same distance from the center of the key balance pin from key 1-88 or not?

Thanks!!

The capstans need to be moved so that I can get a 10mm dip with a 1.25 aftertouch, while getting a blow distance of 45mm. Right now, the blow distance is too shallow with the current capstan line. And the current capstans are at an angle and hit towards the front of the wippen heal felt. I am going to straighten them out and move them back, so they hit more towards the center of the wippen heal cushion and give me a blow distance of 45mm. I have tested this inside the piano with sample hammers that have the proper bore distance, with the action properly regulated.

Moving the capstan line will also take the key ratio closer to 2 to 1. The key ratio will end up 240mm from front of key to balance pin, and 115mm from balance pin to capstan center, a .48 ratio. Key ratio with current angled capstans is 240mm and 110-111mm, a .46 ratio.

Given those measurements, does a capstan line move seem like a good idea? Right now, I am being very nitpicky about details in order to get the best possible results. As I gain more experience, I will learn which areas of the action work need a high level of fussiness/accuracy and which areas don't need this. The is a piano that I own, that I am preparing to sell. It is not a customer's piano, so I have the luxury of taking the time to see how good I can get it to play and sound. 

The capstans need to be moved anyway, so I might as well move them so that they hit the wippen heal at the same place in the bass and treble. Otherwise, I agree, that if they did not need moving, I would just leave it the way it is. Thanks for your help.

Hey George Davis, thanks for the tip about measuring. I was measuring from the top of the balance pin, which like you said is not accurate. So, on the lower bass keys, measuring from the bottom of the balance pin to the center of the capstan hole is 109.0-109.5mm. On the upper treble keys this distance is 108.0mm, about 1 to 1.5mm shorter. 

Then, as far as where the capstan center lines up with the wippen heal, on the bass side, the center of the capstan hole is 1-2mm further back into the heel of the wippen, than where it lines up with the upper treble wippen heal.  

So, the two measurement discrepancies above pretty much match up, which is great. It seems like the thing to do is to strike the new capstan line, so that it meets the wippen heal in the same place in the treble and the bass, in order to achieve a matching action ratio from keys 1-88. 

Does this seem right to everyone?

Agreed, within reason. The action I worked on had gross inconsistencies everywhere. Post WWI piano.

I had to get things straightened out before considering going any further. 

But, if Joe is talking about graduated key lengths, this would change accordingly. 

Just one comment, a slightly changing KR is not the end of the world.  It's not unusual to find this.  I have a Steinway B in the shop (1970s accelerated action type) that has a horrible key ratio, 5.5  in the bass but it graduates down to about 5.4 in the treble (still horrible).  Other than having to move the capstan because it's simply to0 high, the fact that it changes across the scale doesn't really worry me and I would not consider it a problem.  If the ratio were a more reasonable 5.2 graduating to 5.1, say, I wouldn't bother to change it at all.  On an older piano with slanted capstans I would because I prefer them to be 90 degrees to the key but not because the ratio changed.  That change will all get teased out in the smoothing of the SWs and FWs and the difference in regulation is not significant. 

Techs get hung up on these small inconsistencies, but I think that just goes with the territory (physical and psychological).  Don't sweat the small stuff, or is it the devil is in the details.  Life is full of contradictory advice.  Choose your battles.

On one of the pianos I am working on the capstan line is not that same distance from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole from key 1 to key 88 on the white keys. On the bass keys the distance from the key balance pin back to the capstan hole is around 110.5mm. As you go up the keyboard this distance gradually slims down to 108mm. So, there is a 2.5mm difference between the bass and treble keys from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole.

The interesting thing here is that the capstan holes are the same distance from key 1 to 88 when measuring from the center of the capstan hole back to the to the back-check block. It looks like that is the measurement that was used to drill the capstan holes when the piano was constructed. 

From this state of things, the question arises as to which is the correct way to line up the capstan holes. Should all the capstan holes be the same distance from the center of the key balance pin from key 1-88 or not?

Thanks!!

OK, moving the capstan back will increase the AR and give you more hammer travel for the same key dip.  It will also increase the weight of the action, if that matters, so you'll want to check that out before you make the move to be sure you're not creating another problem for yourself. 

BTW, for inquiring minds, when you change an angled capstan to vertical and the contact point on the wippen heel does not change, the action ratio still changes because of the contact point of the base of the capstan on the key moves.  

I would suggest, Joe, that if you want to use distance measurements for calculating AR that you purchase Nick Gravagne's program, not expensive, and will give you the best, IMO, way to measure and calculate ARs using distance.  There are many different methods out there and not all of them agree.  You can also input changes and it will give you the net result.  Remember that when you change the capstan position, you are generally changing the contact point on the wippen heel which also changes the AR.  There can be a multiplier effect so you must factor in both to determine what the overall change in the AR will be.  In your case, it appears you are not changing the wippen contact point but just the key contact point if you are reorienting the capstan angle.  

If you want to use weight based systems then learn Stanwood's method (which is what I use, mostly, with some modifications).  For most people these days, weight trumps regulation specs (within reason) and the Stanwood system gives a better direct path to controlling weight.  All the information you need on Stanwood is in the public domain and in several PTJ articles.  You can also become a licensed installer, get trained by David himself, and become privy to all the Stan-warts dark arts some of which is not in the public domain.

I do think it is important, since you're asking lots of questions here that pertain to this stuff, to be sure that the data you're providing is complete and consistent with standard protocols.  Otherwise, it gets very confusing, and the answers people are giving you are based on misleading information.  

The capstans need to be moved so that I can get a 10mm dip with a 1.25 aftertouch, while getting a blow distance of 45mm. Right now, the blow distance is too shallow with the current capstan line. And the current capstans are at an angle and hit towards the front of the wippen heal felt. I am going to straighten them out and move them back, so they hit more towards the center of the wippen heal cushion and give me a blow distance of 45mm. I have tested this inside the piano with sample hammers that have the proper bore distance, with the action properly regulated.

Moving the capstan line will also take the key ratio closer to 2 to 1. The key ratio will end up 240mm from front of key to balance pin, and 115mm from balance pin to capstan center, a .48 ratio. Key ratio with current angled capstans is 240mm and 110-111mm, a .46 ratio.

Given those measurements, does a capstan line move seem like a good idea? Right now, I am being very nitpicky about details in order to get the best possible results. As I gain more experience, I will learn which areas of the action work need a high level of fussiness/accuracy and which areas don't need this. The is a piano that I own, that I am preparing to sell. It is not a customer's piano, so I have the luxury of taking the time to see how good I can get it to play and sound. 

The capstans need to be moved anyway, so I might as well move them so that they hit the wippen heal at the same place in the bass and treble. Otherwise, I agree, that if they did not need moving, I would just leave it the way it is. Thanks for your help.

Hey George Davis, thanks for the tip about measuring. I was measuring from the top of the balance pin, which like you said is not accurate. So, on the lower bass keys, measuring from the bottom of the balance pin to the center of the capstan hole is 109.0-109.5mm. On the upper treble keys this distance is 108.0mm, about 1 to 1.5mm shorter. 

Then, as far as where the capstan center lines up with the wippen heal, on the bass side, the center of the capstan hole is 1-2mm further back into the heel of the wippen, than where it lines up with the upper treble wippen heal.  

So, the two measurement discrepancies above pretty much match up, which is great. It seems like the thing to do is to strike the new capstan line, so that it meets the wippen heal in the same place in the treble and the bass, in order to achieve a matching action ratio from keys 1-88. 

Does this seem right to everyone?

Agreed, within reason. The action I worked on had gross inconsistencies everywhere. Post WWI piano.

I had to get things straightened out before considering going any further. 

But, if Joe is talking about graduated key lengths, this would change accordingly. 

Just one comment, a slightly changing KR is not the end of the world.  It's not unusual to find this.  I have a Steinway B in the shop (1970s accelerated action type) that has a horrible key ratio, 5.5  in the bass but it graduates down to about 5.4 in the treble (still horrible).  Other than having to move the capstan because it's simply to0 high, the fact that it changes across the scale doesn't really worry me and I would not consider it a problem.  If the ratio were a more reasonable 5.2 graduating to 5.1, say, I wouldn't bother to change it at all.  On an older piano with slanted capstans I would because I prefer them to be 90 degrees to the key but not because the ratio changed.  That change will all get teased out in the smoothing of the SWs and FWs and the difference in regulation is not significant. 

Techs get hung up on these small inconsistencies, but I think that just goes with the territory (physical and psychological).  Don't sweat the small stuff, or is it the devil is in the details.  Life is full of contradictory advice.  Choose your battles.

On one of the pianos I am working on the capstan line is not that same distance from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole from key 1 to key 88 on the white keys. On the bass keys the distance from the key balance pin back to the capstan hole is around 110.5mm. As you go up the keyboard this distance gradually slims down to 108mm. So, there is a 2.5mm difference between the bass and treble keys from the center of the key balance pin to the center of the capstan hole.

The interesting thing here is that the capstan holes are the same distance from key 1 to 88 when measuring from the center of the capstan hole back to the to the back-check block. It looks like that is the measurement that was used to drill the capstan holes when the piano was constructed. 

From this state of things, the question arises as to which is the correct way to line up the capstan holes. Should all the capstan holes be the same distance from the center of the key balance pin from key 1-88 or not?

Thanks!!