Compass point needling

5. RE: Compass point needling

Recommend

Registered Piano Technician

David Stanwood

Posted 10-27-2023 15:55

Working over the surface vigorously with a ball peen hammer works the wool fibers back into the holes and causes them to expand slightly, bringing back resilience that is diminished by heat pressing. Even cold or warm pressed hammers can have residual resilience resulting from heat pressing the sheet before it even gets to the hammer maker. I have promoted the compass needle method for decades now. The first piano I used it on was a small upright with heat pressed hammers. I set out to kill the tone because it was in a small room and sounded awful. I took the action out and laid it on the floor. I attacked it all over the strike area with blows from a compass point. Then I wacked away with a heavy ball peen hammer and the holes all disappeared. It didn't kill the tone at all, It totally improved of tone. It opened up and became truly beautiful in the pianissimo ranges. The deeper layers were unaffected by the needle tip. So there was no destruction of the forte tone. The hammers were not destroyed. The range was expanded by expanding the pianissimo ranges. 20 years later the tone is still magical and the hammers aren't showing any sign of damage. The method works particularly well on NY Steinway hammers that are over lacquered. I've got a 7' new Schimmel that I've worked over several times with heavy compass point needling and peening. I cannot kill the tone. It just gets warmer. On the other hand I had a 9' Grotrian c1903 with new heat pressed hammers. After testing middle C I could tell that any amount of needling would be destructive. Just peening the strike surface transformed the tone. I commonly hit string groves with an angled approach. It gives a lasting warm finish the tone which the clients always appreciate. Restores tone in hammers that are shot with deep groves. It's one of the most important tools in my kit. I agree that three cornered glovers needles destroy the felt by cutting the fibers.

------------------------------
David Stanwood RPT
Stanwood Piano Innovations Inc.
West Tisbury MA
(508) 693-1583
------------------------------

Original Message

6. RE: Compass point needling

Recommend

Member

Jason Kanter

Posted 11-07-2023 16:56

David Stanwood said: "I have promoted the compass needle method for decades now. The first piano I used it on was a small upright with heat pressed hammers. I set out to kill the tone because it was in a small room and sounded awful. I took the action out and laid it on the floor. I attacked it all over the strike area with blows from a compass point. Then I wacked away with a heavy ball peen hammer and the holes all disappeared. It didn't kill the tone at all, It totally improved of tone. It opened up and became truly beautiful in the pianissimo ranges. The deeper layers were unaffected by the needle tip. So there was no destruction of the forte tone. The hammers were not destroyed. The range was expanded by expanding the pianissimo ranges. 20 years later the tone is still magical and the hammers aren't showing any sign of damage."

David Stanwood, 10-27-2023 15:55

David, I've just been contacted to voice down a Kawai vertical whose hammers have been replaced with Bosendorfer hammers, and the owner finds the upper octaves unbearably bright. I've watched the lovely video of the compass point being used on a Steinway D; but is there a video of this treatment of a vertical? How to deal with the dampers, how to support the hammer heads to take the punishment of both the compass point and the ball peen follow-up? Inquiring minds want to know... thanks in advance.

------------------------------
| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || |||
Jason Kanter
Lynnwood WA
(425) 830-1561
------------------------------

Original Message

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2023 15:55
From: David Stanwood
Subject: Compass point needling

Working over the surface vigorously with a ball peen hammer works the wool fibers back into the holes and causes them to expand slightly, bringing back resilience that is diminished by heat pressing. Even cold or warm pressed hammers can have residual resilience resulting from heat pressing the sheet before it even gets to the hammer maker. I have promoted the compass needle method for decades now. The first piano I used it on was a small upright with heat pressed hammers. I set out to kill the tone because it was in a small room and sounded awful. I took the action out and laid it on the floor. I attacked it all over the strike area with blows from a compass point. Then I wacked away with a heavy ball peen hammer and the holes all disappeared. It didn't kill the tone at all, It totally improved of tone. It opened up and became truly beautiful in the pianissimo ranges. The deeper layers were unaffected by the needle tip. So there was no destruction of the forte tone. The hammers were not destroyed. The range was expanded by expanding the pianissimo ranges. 20 years later the tone is still magical and the hammers aren't showing any sign of damage. The method works particularly well on NY Steinway hammers that are over lacquered. I've got a 7' new Schimmel that I've worked over several times with heavy compass point needling and peening. I cannot kill the tone. It just gets warmer. On the other hand I had a 9' Grotrian c1903 with new heat pressed hammers. After testing middle C I could tell that any amount of needling would be destructive. Just peening the strike surface transformed the tone. I commonly hit string groves with an angled approach. It gives a lasting warm finish the tone which the clients always appreciate. Restores tone in hammers that are shot with deep groves. It's one of the most important tools in my kit. I agree that three cornered glovers needles destroy the felt by cutting the fibers.

------------------------------
David Stanwood RPT
Stanwood Piano Innovations Inc.
West Tisbury MA
(508) 693-1583

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2023 15:11
From: Larry Messerly
Subject: Compass point needling

Before reshaping to hide the puncture holes.

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2023 14:47
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Compass point needling

Larry,

I don't know why you'd want to do it BEFORE reshaping. Unless you're thinking INSTEAD of reshaping.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2023 09:53
From: David Love
Subject: Compass point needling

No. Compass point needling is a very aggressive approach to be used only in the case of over lacquered or hopeless hammers. It's very destructive to the hammer and should be used only as a last last resort.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 10-26-2023 20:12
From: Larry Messerly
Subject: Compass point needling

Any thoughts on compass point needling before hammer reshaping?

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292
------------------------------

7. RE: Compass point needling

Recommend

Registered Piano Technician

David Stanwood

Posted 11-07-2023 19:44

| view attached

Hi Jason,

Just take the action out, lay it on the floor, and back up the tails with a 2x4 or the like. Hit the surface with the compass point and follow up with peening hammer to settle the disturbance.

------------------------------
David Stanwood
stanwoodpiano.com
stanwood@tiac.net
508-693-1583
------------------------------

Video

dd3622a3-e6bc-49e3-a0e0-018bac629bfb_file

Original Message

Original Message:
Sent: 11-07-2023 16:55
From: Jason Kanter
Subject: Compass point needling

David Stanwood said: "I have promoted the compass needle method for decades now. The first piano I used it on was a small upright with heat pressed hammers. I set out to kill the tone because it was in a small room and sounded awful. I took the action out and laid it on the floor. I attacked it all over the strike area with blows from a compass point. Then I wacked away with a heavy ball peen hammer and the holes all disappeared. It didn't kill the tone at all, It totally improved of tone. It opened up and became truly beautiful in the pianissimo ranges. The deeper layers were unaffected by the needle tip. So there was no destruction of the forte tone. The hammers were not destroyed. The range was expanded by expanding the pianissimo ranges. 20 years later the tone is still magical and the hammers aren't showing any sign of damage."

David Stanwood, 10-27-2023 15:55

David, I've just been contacted to voice down a Kawai vertical whose hammers have been replaced with Bosendorfer hammers, and the owner finds the upper octaves unbearably bright. I've watched the lovely video of the compass point being used on a Steinway D; but is there a video of this treatment of a vertical? How to deal with the dampers, how to support the hammer heads to take the punishment of both the compass point and the ball peen follow-up? Inquiring minds want to know... thanks in advance.

------------------------------
| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || |||
Jason Kanter
Lynnwood WA
(425) 830-1561

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2023 15:55
From: David Stanwood
Subject: Compass point needling

Working over the surface vigorously with a ball peen hammer works the wool fibers back into the holes and causes them to expand slightly, bringing back resilience that is diminished by heat pressing. Even cold or warm pressed hammers can have residual resilience resulting from heat pressing the sheet before it even gets to the hammer maker. I have promoted the compass needle method for decades now. The first piano I used it on was a small upright with heat pressed hammers. I set out to kill the tone because it was in a small room and sounded awful. I took the action out and laid it on the floor. I attacked it all over the strike area with blows from a compass point. Then I wacked away with a heavy ball peen hammer and the holes all disappeared. It didn't kill the tone at all, It totally improved of tone. It opened up and became truly beautiful in the pianissimo ranges. The deeper layers were unaffected by the needle tip. So there was no destruction of the forte tone. The hammers were not destroyed. The range was expanded by expanding the pianissimo ranges. 20 years later the tone is still magical and the hammers aren't showing any sign of damage. The method works particularly well on NY Steinway hammers that are over lacquered. I've got a 7' new Schimmel that I've worked over several times with heavy compass point needling and peening. I cannot kill the tone. It just gets warmer. On the other hand I had a 9' Grotrian c1903 with new heat pressed hammers. After testing middle C I could tell that any amount of needling would be destructive. Just peening the strike surface transformed the tone. I commonly hit string groves with an angled approach. It gives a lasting warm finish the tone which the clients always appreciate. Restores tone in hammers that are shot with deep groves. It's one of the most important tools in my kit. I agree that three cornered glovers needles destroy the felt by cutting the fibers.

------------------------------
David Stanwood RPT
Stanwood Piano Innovations Inc.
West Tisbury MA
(508) 693-1583

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2023 15:11
From: Larry Messerly
Subject: Compass point needling

Before reshaping to hide the puncture holes.

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2023 14:47
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Compass point needling

Larry,

I don't know why you'd want to do it BEFORE reshaping. Unless you're thinking INSTEAD of reshaping.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2023 09:53
From: David Love
Subject: Compass point needling

No. Compass point needling is a very aggressive approach to be used only in the case of over lacquered or hopeless hammers. It's very destructive to the hammer and should be used only as a last last resort.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 10-26-2023 20:12
From: Larry Messerly
Subject: Compass point needling

Any thoughts on compass point needling before hammer reshaping?

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292
------------------------------

10. RE: Compass point needling

Recommend

Registered Piano Technician

David Stanwood

Posted 10-28-2023 07:54

I hear you David. I find that in many cases nothing else works as well. The compass needle is certainly destructive to the hard the outer surface while producing a gradient effect into the deeper layers. Maybe deconstructive is a better word. Easy to control the effect by the amount of force used when inserting the needle. I'd call it a more aggressive sugar coating method with a much more permanent effect. It is mainly a surface effect so if you overdo, a light filing brings up the tone again (in hammers without deep string grooves). I most often use my compass points on pianos with heavily grooved older hammers using an angled stab as for Angel Shot method. Just takes a few minutes and the customers really notice and appreciate how it increases pianissimo range without killing the forte tone and improves the general finish of the tone. My original source from draftingsteals.com went out of business. I'm using textile needles now which are even sharper than the compass points. I've got an ample supply. If anyone wants to try them out, please feel free to contact me personally.

------------------------------
David Stanwood
stanwoodpiano.com
stanwood@tiac.net

West Tisbury MA
(508) 693-1583
------------------------------

Original Message

11. RE: Compass point needling

Recommend

Registered Piano Technician

David Stanwood

Posted 10-28-2023 08:41

| view attached

Here's an video example of pretuning voicing I often do. Gives a noticible improvement to the finish of the tone and makes for easier unison tuning.

------------------------------
David Stanwood
stanwoodpiano.com
stanwood@tiac.net
508-693-1583
------------------------------

Video

c116678e-08a1-4d7c-a9bc-018b764d0208_file

Original Message

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2023 07:54
From: David Stanwood
Subject: Compass point needling

I hear you David. I find that in many cases nothing else works as well. The compass needle is certainly destructive to the hard the outer surface while producing a gradient effect into the deeper layers. Maybe deconstructive is a better word. Easy to control the effect by the amount of force used when inserting the needle. I'd call it a more aggressive sugar coating method with a much more permanent effect. It is mainly a surface effect so if you overdo, a light filing brings up the tone again (in hammers without deep string grooves). I most often use my compass points on pianos with heavily grooved older hammers using an angled stab as for Angel Shot method. Just takes a few minutes and the customers really notice and appreciate how it increases pianissimo range without killing the forte tone and improves the general finish of the tone. My original source from draftingsteals.com went out of business. I'm using textile needles now which are even sharper than the compass points. I've got an ample supply. If anyone wants to try them out, please feel free to contact me personally.

------------------------------
David Stanwood
stanwoodpiano.com
stanwood@tiac.net

West Tisbury MA
(508) 693-1583

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2023 02:10
From: David Love
Subject: Compass point needling

Glover's needless are also aggressive (for different reasons-the sharp edges tend to cut the wool fibers ) but so are compass point due to the diameter of the compass point. I stand by my position that using them is when nothing else will work.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2023 15:12
From: Larry Messerly
Subject: Compass point needling

No David, glover's needles are aggressive

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2023 09:53
From: David Love
Subject: Compass point needling

No. Compass point needling is a very aggressive approach to be used only in the case of over lacquered or hopeless hammers. It's very destructive to the hammer and should be used only as a last last resort.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 10-26-2023 20:12
From: Larry Messerly
Subject: Compass point needling

Any thoughts on compass point needling before hammer reshaping?

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292
------------------------------

12. RE: Compass point needling

Recommend

Registered Piano Technician

Tremaine Parsons

Posted 10-30-2023 20:51

David, Thank you so much for the video. I was having a hard time imagining a compass point because this old brain was stuck on navigation. Any chance you could do a short video of your ball peen hammer method???? I'd really like to see that. Do you hold the hammer as if you are filing one hammer?

------------------------------
Tremaine Parsons RPT
Georgetown CA
(530) 333-9299
------------------------------

Original Message

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2023 08:40
From: David Stanwood
Subject: Compass point needling

Here's an video example of pretuning voicing I often do. Gives a noticible improvement to the finish of the tone and makes for easier unison tuning.

------------------------------
David Stanwood
stanwoodpiano.com
stanwood@tiac.net
508-693-1583

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2023 07:54
From: David Stanwood
Subject: Compass point needling

I hear you David. I find that in many cases nothing else works as well. The compass needle is certainly destructive to the hard the outer surface while producing a gradient effect into the deeper layers. Maybe deconstructive is a better word. Easy to control the effect by the amount of force used when inserting the needle. I'd call it a more aggressive sugar coating method with a much more permanent effect. It is mainly a surface effect so if you overdo, a light filing brings up the tone again (in hammers without deep string grooves). I most often use my compass points on pianos with heavily grooved older hammers using an angled stab as for Angel Shot method. Just takes a few minutes and the customers really notice and appreciate how it increases pianissimo range without killing the forte tone and improves the general finish of the tone. My original source from draftingsteals.com went out of business. I'm using textile needles now which are even sharper than the compass points. I've got an ample supply. If anyone wants to try them out, please feel free to contact me personally.

------------------------------
David Stanwood
stanwoodpiano.com
stanwood@tiac.net

West Tisbury MA
(508) 693-1583

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2023 02:10
From: David Love
Subject: Compass point needling

Glover's needless are also aggressive (for different reasons-the sharp edges tend to cut the wool fibers ) but so are compass point due to the diameter of the compass point. I stand by my position that using them is when nothing else will work.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2023 15:12
From: Larry Messerly
Subject: Compass point needling

No David, glover's needles are aggressive

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2023 09:53
From: David Love
Subject: Compass point needling

No. Compass point needling is a very aggressive approach to be used only in the case of over lacquered or hopeless hammers. It's very destructive to the hammer and should be used only as a last last resort.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 10-26-2023 20:12
From: Larry Messerly
Subject: Compass point needling

Any thoughts on compass point needling before hammer reshaping?

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292
------------------------------

13. RE: Compass point needling

Recommend

Registered Piano Technician

David Stanwood

Posted 10-30-2023 23:19

Sure Tremaine, Happy to share a youtube link of John Foy in North Carolina working over a Steinway D concert hall piano. The hammers don't have significant grooving wear. They have ample lacquer which produces a big sound in the hall. Not so full and beautiful in the lighter dynamics. He's using the compass point-aka spike, and peen method. A single compass point mounted in a handle is worked over the strike area. The ideal level of pressure was determined by test samples. He also feels the hard spots with the single needle. Then he works over the felt with the ball peen hammer. Stephan Paulello described to me once that for him the immediate change from peening was similar to the improvement one realizes over time from playing in a new set of hammers. The overall effect pianistically was that the overall dynamic range of the piano was noticeably expanded by the widening of the Pianissimo ranges. It opened up latent possibilities of warmth and subtlety. Forte tones were strong and cleaner. Pianists who regularly play on the piano were very pleased with the result and starting right away to explore and exploit the added tonal dimensions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-BazjScJtk

------------------------------
David Stanwood
stanwoodpiano.com
stanwood@tiac.net
508-693-1583
------------------------------

Original Message

Original Message:
Sent: 10-30-2023 20:50
From: Tremaine Parsons
Subject: Compass point needling

David, Thank you so much for the video. I was having a hard time imagining a compass point because this old brain was stuck on navigation. Any chance you could do a short video of your ball peen hammer method???? I'd really like to see that. Do you hold the hammer as if you are filing one hammer?

------------------------------
Tremaine Parsons RPT
Georgetown CA
(530) 333-9299

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2023 08:40
From: David Stanwood
Subject: Compass point needling

Here's an video example of pretuning voicing I often do. Gives a noticible improvement to the finish of the tone and makes for easier unison tuning.

------------------------------
David Stanwood
stanwoodpiano.com
stanwood@tiac.net
508-693-1583

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2023 07:54
From: David Stanwood
Subject: Compass point needling

I hear you David. I find that in many cases nothing else works as well. The compass needle is certainly destructive to the hard the outer surface while producing a gradient effect into the deeper layers. Maybe deconstructive is a better word. Easy to control the effect by the amount of force used when inserting the needle. I'd call it a more aggressive sugar coating method with a much more permanent effect. It is mainly a surface effect so if you overdo, a light filing brings up the tone again (in hammers without deep string grooves). I most often use my compass points on pianos with heavily grooved older hammers using an angled stab as for Angel Shot method. Just takes a few minutes and the customers really notice and appreciate how it increases pianissimo range without killing the forte tone and improves the general finish of the tone. My original source from draftingsteals.com went out of business. I'm using textile needles now which are even sharper than the compass points. I've got an ample supply. If anyone wants to try them out, please feel free to contact me personally.

------------------------------
David Stanwood
stanwoodpiano.com
stanwood@tiac.net

West Tisbury MA
(508) 693-1583

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2023 02:10
From: David Love
Subject: Compass point needling

Glover's needless are also aggressive (for different reasons-the sharp edges tend to cut the wool fibers ) but so are compass point due to the diameter of the compass point. I stand by my position that using them is when nothing else will work.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2023 15:12
From: Larry Messerly
Subject: Compass point needling

No David, glover's needles are aggressive

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2023 09:53
From: David Love
Subject: Compass point needling

No. Compass point needling is a very aggressive approach to be used only in the case of over lacquered or hopeless hammers. It's very destructive to the hammer and should be used only as a last last resort.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 10-26-2023 20:12
From: Larry Messerly
Subject: Compass point needling

Any thoughts on compass point needling before hammer reshaping?

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292
------------------------------

14. RE: Compass point needling

Recommend

Registered Piano Technician

Tremaine Parsons

Posted 10-31-2023 00:21

Thanks David! Perfect!

One of the best things about life for me is that, provided we still have our minds, we never stop learning stuff. It's like my daily salve.

------------------------------
Tremaine Parsons RPT
Georgetown CA
(530) 333-9299
------------------------------

Original Message

Original Message:
Sent: 10-30-2023 23:19
From: David Stanwood
Subject: Compass point needling

Sure Tremaine, Happy to share a youtube link of John Foy in North Carolina working over a Steinway D concert hall piano. The hammers don't have significant grooving wear. They have ample lacquer which produces a big sound in the hall. Not so full and beautiful in the lighter dynamics. He's using the compass point-aka spike, and peen method. A single compass point mounted in a handle is worked over the strike area. The ideal level of pressure was determined by test samples. He also feels the hard spots with the single needle. Then he works over the felt with the ball peen hammer. Stephan Paulello described to me once that for him the immediate change from peening was similar to the improvement one realizes over time from playing in a new set of hammers. The overall effect pianistically was that the overall dynamic range of the piano was noticeably expanded by the widening of the Pianissimo ranges. It opened up latent possibilities of warmth and subtlety. Forte tones were strong and cleaner. Pianists who regularly play on the piano were very pleased with the result and starting right away to explore and exploit the added tonal dimensions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-BazjScJtk

------------------------------
David Stanwood
stanwoodpiano.com
stanwood@tiac.net
508-693-1583

Original Message:
Sent: 10-30-2023 20:50
From: Tremaine Parsons
Subject: Compass point needling