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Not seen one of these in a while...Crumbly plastic elbow

  • 1.  Not seen one of these in a while...Crumbly plastic elbow

    Posted 05-27-2022 13:02
    Hello all,

    In your opinion, is it worth it to do the elbow replacement on spinets?  The customer got the piano for free and I was able to tune it without breaking any elbows and they seemed pretty sturdy.  The customer texted me today and said his child hit a key too hard and one of the elbows broke. 

    I want to tell them to consign it to the dump and look for another piano, but I have already tuned it for them.  What would you all do?

    Thanks!
    Patrick

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    Patrick Greene
    OWNER
    Knoxville TN
    (865) 384-6582
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  • 2.  RE: Not seen one of these in a while...Crumbly plastic elbow

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-27-2022 13:25

    Is the piano otherwise OK?

    Replace all elbows with those clear snap in elbows. The old ones will probably crumble with needle nose pliers and then clean it all up.

    I wouldn't go any farther than that.




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  • 3.  RE: Not seen one of these in a while...Crumbly plastic elbow

    Posted 05-27-2022 21:35

    Yes, replace the elbows and it becomes a fairly decent spinet. But this assumes that there are no other plastic parts in it. If it has plastic flanges, plastic jacks, plastic damper levers, plastic?? back checks, etc. then it should be allowed to die to put it out of its misery.

    One doesn't see as many of these as before because by now most have either had the elbows replaced, or they have been totaled already. I used to do three or four a year.

    If the elbows really are fairly strong still, you might have quite a problem getting the old ones out. The more crumbly they are the easier it is to get rid of the old ones.




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  • 4.  RE: Not seen one of these in a while...Crumbly plastic elbow

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-27-2022 22:49
    Susan makes a really good point here. Sometime an elbow or two might break and one assumes they are all about to go. Instead, as one digs into a total replacement, one finds that many if not most are like stiff leather. They won't snap and you have to use something like a diagonal cutter to get them off. Frustrating and adds a lot of time to the process. The real problem is the bird's eye area that fits into the whippen mortise, ideally that will break apart using needle nose pliers if not it can be a wrestling match with each one. 
    It's a good practice to test all the elbows in advance either with your fingers or using pliers to make sure they are suitably weak, if you can't break them pretty easily, I would just replace the ones that will and leave the rest as they will probably hold up. If you have doubts, tell the customer in advance that this might be a contingency, it could save them a little money as well. 
    Ditto also on the point about other plastic parts, if you pull an action with a lot of plastic flanges you could be walking into a nightmare.

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    Steven Rosenthal RPT
    Honolulu HI
    (808) 521-7129
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  • 5.  RE: Not seen one of these in a while...Crumbly plastic elbow

    Posted 05-27-2022 13:30
    Hi Patrick. 
    It's never a one-size-fits-all approach.

    Make sure to have a discussion with your customer so you understand what they expect from the piano and they understand the condition and limitations of the piano.
    Check to see if there are plastic damper or hammer flanges that will need to be replaced as well. If the piano has plastic flanges, even if they haven't broken yet, I would suggest replacing them as well.
    As long as the customer is given the information, prices and honest assessment and expectations regarding the condition,  thay can decide for themselves what they want to do.
    I am currently working on a spinet: replacing elbows and damper flanges. The owner wants to keep this piano alive as it was his dad's piano. He understands that the piano has limitations and will only be good as a starter piano but that's all he wants plus that it has a lot of sentimental value for him.

    Most times, people won't spend that money to keep it going but rather buy a better used piano but they need the info to be able to come to a conclusion that'll work for them.
    Peter






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    Petrus Janssen
    Peachtree City GA
    (678) 416-8055
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  • 6.  RE: Not seen one of these in a while...Crumbly plastic elbow

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-27-2022 13:32
    Hi Patrick:
    There will be more breaking, so you might as well do the whole job. You tuned it, so you'rework. the guy they want. Or pass the job off to another technician, maybe a newbie, who has the time and is hungry for the work. 

    Sent from my iPhone



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  • 7.  RE: Not seen one of these in a while...Crumbly plastic elbow

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-27-2022 15:53
    I presume you had this conversation with them at the very beginning, that there will be a very good chance that the elbows will break in the near future. If they still only want the one elbow replaced, give them the price of a service call to do that. But I would also warn them that the rest will most likely break, and that they should consider having you replace all the elbows at once. Just the do the math for them, and I'm sure they'll understand. 

    That's all you can do. 

    Just another example of how much a "free" piano costs. 

    Wim




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  • 8.  RE: Not seen one of these in a while...Crumbly plastic elbow

    Posted 05-27-2022 21:39

    In the past, if the owners only had one or two elbows to replace, and they wanted to take their chances with the rest, I'd show them the process of replacement, which is pretty easy, and then I'd leave them a handful of the Vagias elbows. A lot easier than traipsing back over and over again.




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  • 9.  RE: Not seen one of these in a while...Crumbly plastic elbow

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-27-2022 22:41
    I showed a customer the plastic elbows, of which one was already broken. I gave him the story of replacing all of them as opposed to just the one. He opted to have me replace just the one. By the time I got done tuning the piano, 4 or 5 more broke  ...... I took the action home and replaced all of them. 

    Wim



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  • 10.  RE: Not seen one of these in a while...Crumbly plastic elbow

    Posted 05-28-2022 07:55
    Thank you everyone for the good advice.  The only plastic parts are the elbows.  I had a Janssen piano once where the people wanted every plastic part replaced.  I tried very hard to talk them out of it, but the piano was sentimental so I did the work.  It was a time consuming process and I lost money on the deal.  I will never do that again!

    The elbows are still fairly stiff and only a few are breaking.  The problem is compounded by the fact that the people live an hour away from me and the trip eats up several gallons of gas, which is no small thing these days.  The customer is fairly handy, so I might show him how it works and leave him a handful of elbows to replace as they fail.  Once he does a couple of them, he might get the picture that there are less difficult pianos to be found and invest in a quality instrument.

    Have a good weekend.
    Patrick

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    Patrick Greene
    OWNER
    Knoxville TN
    (865) 384-6582
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    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: Not seen one of these in a while...Crumbly plastic elbow

    Posted 05-28-2022 22:42
    I fixed the one bad one for the customer.  But while I was doing it, I showed him how to fix it himself if another one should break and I left him several of the Vagias elbows.  Thanks again for the good advice.

    In the future, I will bid these sort of jobs to where I make money..not lose it.  :-)


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    Patrick Greene
    OWNER
    Knoxville TN
    (865) 384-6582
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    Original Message


  • 12.  RE: Not seen one of these in a while...Crumbly plastic elbow

    Posted 05-29-2022 06:28

    Yes, leaving a few elbows after demonstrating their use is an excellent use of time and money, compared to going back over and over again -- also the best for both you and the piano owner.




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  • 13.  RE: Not seen one of these in a while...Crumbly plastic elbow

    Posted 05-28-2022 11:07
    Replacing all elbows is a messy 3 to 4 hour job with the cost about equivalent to what the piano will be worth. There will always be a few that just won't crumble and you risk damaging the whippen trying to break them up. In the past there have been times when I have used a drill to drill in and break up stubborn plastic. Also, replacement whippens for those old spinets can be hard to come by. Consider doing the one broken elbow and see what happens. It just might be an outlier. If you decide to replace all, mark the position of the original elbow on wire where it threads in. It will save time later when adjusting the capstans. Good Luck!

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    Randy Prentice RPT
    Tucson AZ
    (520) 749-3788
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  • 14.  RE: Not seen one of these in a while...Crumbly plastic elbow

    Posted 05-28-2022 11:39

    If you've only got a few of the really tough ones that don't want to give up, it is possible, though awkward, to drive out the center pin and get it off that way. Then, of course, you have to put it back in or replace it.




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  • 15.  RE: Not seen one of these in a while...Crumbly plastic elbow

    Posted 05-29-2022 13:34
    Hi, Susan Kline. Your suggestion sounds reasonable. To add to your suggestion: Assuming, one can manage to get the center pin extraction tool lined up properly (like you said, it is an awkward affair), it seems it would be smart to push the CP through just far enough to remove the remains of the elbow without removing it completely. Then it should be fairly easy slide it back into position using small needle nose pliers.

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    Randy Prentice RPT
    Tucson AZ
    (520) 749-3788
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    Original Message


  • 16.  RE: Not seen one of these in a while...Crumbly plastic elbow

    Posted 05-28-2022 13:26
    A smallish Visegrip pliers can fit in there if the sides are ground down a bit. It will crush all but the most stubborn ones. Set the pliers to not damage the center pin.

    A diagonal pliers used judiciously can handle the most stubborn ones. Obviously, avoid cutting the pin.

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    John Formsma
    New Albany MS

    "Sneak up on optimal."
    --Ron Nossaman
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  • 17.  RE: Not seen one of these in a while...Crumbly plastic elbow

    Member
    Posted 05-29-2022 13:53
    I believe there is a journal article on this using a set of shears that look like pruning shears. If I recall you can cut the elbows off easily. I will try finding the article and the tool recommended. I agree with Randy about marking the threaded wire. I use red Testors model enamel paint and paint the thread above the elbows or below. This way you have a guide mark for the new replacement

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    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
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  • 18.  RE: Not seen one of these in a while...Crumbly plastic elbow

    Posted 05-29-2022 14:46
      |   view attached
    Grind a pair of end cutters to fit it the yoke, once the old elbow is clipped off with other cutters.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com


  • 19.  RE: Not seen one of these in a while...Crumbly plastic elbow

    Posted 05-29-2022 15:58
    This is a great suggestion for nippers. 

    I have always used a fine tip magic marker to mark the threaded wire, though red enamel pain would be more visible

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    Patrick Greene
    OWNER
    Knoxville TN
    (865) 384-6582
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 20.  RE: Not seen one of these in a while...Crumbly plastic elbow

    Posted 05-30-2022 09:37
    To remove the elbow from the sticker wire. Lock a pair of Vise Grips at the top of the elbow. Cut the plastic away with a sturdy nipper. Screw the new elbow onto the wire to the VG. Hopefully, the new and old elbows will be of the same height.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 21.  RE: Not seen one of these in a while...Crumbly plastic elbow

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-29-2022 16:02
    For the few plastic elbows that don’t easily crumble under the grip of needle nose pliers, hold the elbow with the pliers and gently pull down as you carefully apply heat to the elbow with a heat gun. As the plastic starts to
    melt, it will pull cleanly off the center pin.

    Sent from my iPhone


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