Pianotech

My recent search for an ETD holder, coupled with discussions on piano tuning, led me to consider the following. There has been much discussion about microphone placement using ETDs connected to cell phones or similar devices. Inspired by recent conversations about Pianosens, it occurred to me that it's not just microphone placement but also proximity to the string that matters. In my search for a cell phone holder to use at the piano, I found that magnetic holders typically used for gym workouts are well-suited for this purpose. (see link below--only $20)

The cast-iron plate of the piano responds to magnets (of course) and with iphones, at least, will hold onto the phone as well,  The cell phone holder, like the one pictured below, can be easily attached to various parts of the plate including the top of the struts. This allows for the cell phone to be oriented in such a way that the microphone points directly at the strings and can be set in close proximity. Keep in mind that the different cell phones have both different numbers of mics and different locations.  For example the iphone 14, which I use has 3 located front, back and on the bottom of the phone. The iphone 15 has two at the bottom plus one front and back.   

Using the magnet mount you can orient the mic very close to the string (I focused on the mic at the bottom of the phone). The piano struts allow this easily and the magnetic holder allows you to move the microphone incrementally during tuning. By orienting the microphone this way, especially in the extremes, I found the indicator much more stable, In the high treble I set the holder on the plate behind the bridge and pointed the bottom of the phone where the mic is located directly, and as close to the speaking length as possible (the magnet will easily attach to the hitch pins).  With this holder you can point the mic straight down onto the strings from the strut bringing it as close to the speaking length as you want.

While this solution may not be as advanced as the high technology Pianosens offers, I found it significantly improved the readings in the difficult, extremes of the piano, 

There are several magnetized holders available online at retailers like Amazon. These are magnetized both to hold the phone and to attach to the surface where you mount the phone.  The magnets are covered in some kind of soft silicone or rubber and so won't damage the plate.  I would have taken a picture of the placement of my phone on the piano, but as you might imagine, I needed the phone to do that. If you'd like pictures, I can set something up and show you where I'm placing it.

Amazon.com: Gym Mate Magnetic iPhone Mount Holder. Attaches magnetically to Metal Surface. Shoot Hands-Free Videos While Working Out. Compatible with MagSafe on iPhones 12/13/14/15. Stable & Secure : Cell Phones & Accessories

David,

Would you please elaborate on your criteria for "significantly improved the readings"? Are you talking about simply stability of display, or something else? Curious.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

My recent search for an ETD holder, coupled with discussions on piano tuning, led me to consider the following. There has been much discussion about microphone placement using ETDs connected to cell phones or similar devices. Inspired by recent conversations about Pianosens, it occurred to me that it's not just microphone placement but also proximity to the string that matters. In my search for a cell phone holder to use at the piano, I found that magnetic holders typically used for gym workouts are well-suited for this purpose. (see link below--only $20)

The cast-iron plate of the piano responds to magnets (of course) and with iphones, at least, will hold onto the phone as well,  The cell phone holder, like the one pictured below, can be easily attached to various parts of the plate including the top of the struts. This allows for the cell phone to be oriented in such a way that the microphone points directly at the strings and can be set in close proximity. Keep in mind that the different cell phones have both different numbers of mics and different locations.  For example the iphone 14, which I use has 3 located front, back and on the bottom of the phone. The iphone 15 has two at the bottom plus one front and back.   

Using the magnet mount you can orient the mic very close to the string (I focused on the mic at the bottom of the phone). The piano struts allow this easily and the magnetic holder allows you to move the microphone incrementally during tuning. By orienting the microphone this way, especially in the extremes, I found the indicator much more stable, In the high treble I set the holder on the plate behind the bridge and pointed the bottom of the phone where the mic is located directly, and as close to the speaking length as possible (the magnet will easily attach to the hitch pins).  With this holder you can point the mic straight down onto the strings from the strut bringing it as close to the speaking length as you want.

While this solution may not be as advanced as the high technology Pianosens offers, I found it significantly improved the readings in the difficult, extremes of the piano, 

There are several magnetized holders available online at retailers like Amazon. These are magnetized both to hold the phone and to attach to the surface where you mount the phone.  The magnets are covered in some kind of soft silicone or rubber and so won't damage the plate.  I would have taken a picture of the placement of my phone on the piano, but as you might imagine, I needed the phone to do that. If you'd like pictures, I can set something up and show you where I'm placing it.

Amazon.com: Gym Mate Magnetic iPhone Mount Holder. Attaches magnetically to Metal Surface. Shoot Hands-Free Videos While Working Out. Compatible with MagSafe on iPhones 12/13/14/15. Stable & Secure : Cell Phones & Accessories

My recent search for an ETD holder, coupled with discussions on piano tuning, led me to consider the following. There has been much discussion about microphone placement using ETDs connected to cell phones or similar devices. Inspired by recent conversations about Pianosens, it occurred to me that it's not just microphone placement but also proximity to the string that matters. In my search for a cell phone holder to use at the piano, I found that magnetic holders typically used for gym workouts are well-suited for this purpose. (see link below--only $20)

The cast-iron plate of the piano responds to magnets (of course) and with iphones, at least, will hold onto the phone as well,  The cell phone holder, like the one pictured below, can be easily attached to various parts of the plate including the top of the struts. This allows for the cell phone to be oriented in such a way that the microphone points directly at the strings and can be set in close proximity. Keep in mind that the different cell phones have both different numbers of mics and different locations.  For example the iphone 14, which I use has 3 located front, back and on the bottom of the phone. The iphone 15 has two at the bottom plus one front and back.   

Using the magnet mount you can orient the mic very close to the string (I focused on the mic at the bottom of the phone). The piano struts allow this easily and the magnetic holder allows you to move the microphone incrementally during tuning. By orienting the microphone this way, especially in the extremes, I found the indicator much more stable, In the high treble I set the holder on the plate behind the bridge and pointed the bottom of the phone where the mic is located directly, and as close to the speaking length as possible (the magnet will easily attach to the hitch pins).  With this holder you can point the mic straight down onto the strings from the strut bringing it as close to the speaking length as you want.

While this solution may not be as advanced as the high technology Pianosens offers, I found it significantly improved the readings in the difficult, extremes of the piano, 

There are several magnetized holders available online at retailers like Amazon. These are magnetized both to hold the phone and to attach to the surface where you mount the phone.  The magnets are covered in some kind of soft silicone or rubber and so won't damage the plate.  I would have taken a picture of the placement of my phone on the piano, but as you might imagine, I needed the phone to do that. If you'd like pictures, I can set something up and show you where I'm placing it.

Amazon.com: Gym Mate Magnetic iPhone Mount Holder. Attaches magnetically to Metal Surface. Shoot Hands-Free Videos While Working Out. Compatible with MagSafe on iPhones 12/13/14/15. Stable & Secure : Cell Phones & Accessories

My recent search for an ETD holder, coupled with discussions on piano tuning, led me to consider the following. There has been much discussion about microphone placement using ETDs connected to cell phones or similar devices. Inspired by recent conversations about Pianosens, it occurred to me that it's not just microphone placement but also proximity to the string that matters. In my search for a cell phone holder to use at the piano, I found that magnetic holders typically used for gym workouts are well-suited for this purpose. (see link below--only $20)

The cast-iron plate of the piano responds to magnets (of course) and with iphones, at least, will hold onto the phone as well,  The cell phone holder, like the one pictured below, can be easily attached to various parts of the plate including the top of the struts. This allows for the cell phone to be oriented in such a way that the microphone points directly at the strings and can be set in close proximity. Keep in mind that the different cell phones have both different numbers of mics and different locations.  For example the iphone 14, which I use has 3 located front, back and on the bottom of the phone. The iphone 15 has two at the bottom plus one front and back.   

Using the magnet mount you can orient the mic very close to the string (I focused on the mic at the bottom of the phone). The piano struts allow this easily and the magnetic holder allows you to move the microphone incrementally during tuning. By orienting the microphone this way, especially in the extremes, I found the indicator much more stable, In the high treble I set the holder on the plate behind the bridge and pointed the bottom of the phone where the mic is located directly, and as close to the speaking length as possible (the magnet will easily attach to the hitch pins).  With this holder you can point the mic straight down onto the strings from the strut bringing it as close to the speaking length as you want.

While this solution may not be as advanced as the high technology Pianosens offers, I found it significantly improved the readings in the difficult, extremes of the piano, 

There are several magnetized holders available online at retailers like Amazon. These are magnetized both to hold the phone and to attach to the surface where you mount the phone.  The magnets are covered in some kind of soft silicone or rubber and so won't damage the plate.  I would have taken a picture of the placement of my phone on the piano, but as you might imagine, I needed the phone to do that. If you'd like pictures, I can set something up and show you where I'm placing it.

Amazon.com: Gym Mate Magnetic iPhone Mount Holder. Attaches magnetically to Metal Surface. Shoot Hands-Free Videos While Working Out. Compatible with MagSafe on iPhones 12/13/14/15. Stable & Secure : Cell Phones & Accessories

Regarding mics in your cell phone, depending on how old the phone is there are maybe from one to three. Making a logical guess here, any EDT is likely working off of just the one mic at the bottom of the phone. Using more than a single mic would cause phase errors that would make calculating the proper tuning of a given note close to impossible. 

Regarding cell phone holders, here is the one I use for my iPod Touch. You can find them at Best Buy.

My recent search for an ETD holder, coupled with discussions on piano tuning, led me to consider the following. There has been much discussion about microphone placement using ETDs connected to cell phones or similar devices. Inspired by recent conversations about Pianosens, it occurred to me that it's not just microphone placement but also proximity to the string that matters. In my search for a cell phone holder to use at the piano, I found that magnetic holders typically used for gym workouts are well-suited for this purpose. (see link below--only $20)

The cast-iron plate of the piano responds to magnets (of course) and with iphones, at least, will hold onto the phone as well,  The cell phone holder, like the one pictured below, can be easily attached to various parts of the plate including the top of the struts. This allows for the cell phone to be oriented in such a way that the microphone points directly at the strings and can be set in close proximity. Keep in mind that the different cell phones have both different numbers of mics and different locations.  For example the iphone 14, which I use has 3 located front, back and on the bottom of the phone. The iphone 15 has two at the bottom plus one front and back.   

Using the magnet mount you can orient the mic very close to the string (I focused on the mic at the bottom of the phone). The piano struts allow this easily and the magnetic holder allows you to move the microphone incrementally during tuning. By orienting the microphone this way, especially in the extremes, I found the indicator much more stable, In the high treble I set the holder on the plate behind the bridge and pointed the bottom of the phone where the mic is located directly, and as close to the speaking length as possible (the magnet will easily attach to the hitch pins).  With this holder you can point the mic straight down onto the strings from the strut bringing it as close to the speaking length as you want.

While this solution may not be as advanced as the high technology Pianosens offers, I found it significantly improved the readings in the difficult, extremes of the piano, 

There are several magnetized holders available online at retailers like Amazon. These are magnetized both to hold the phone and to attach to the surface where you mount the phone.  The magnets are covered in some kind of soft silicone or rubber and so won't damage the plate.  I would have taken a picture of the placement of my phone on the piano, but as you might imagine, I needed the phone to do that. If you'd like pictures, I can set something up and show you where I'm placing it.

Amazon.com: Gym Mate Magnetic iPhone Mount Holder. Attaches magnetically to Metal Surface. Shoot Hands-Free Videos While Working Out. Compatible with MagSafe on iPhones 12/13/14/15. Stable & Secure : Cell Phones & Accessories

My recent search for an ETD holder, coupled with discussions on piano tuning, led me to consider the following. There has been much discussion about microphone placement using ETDs connected to cell phones or similar devices. Inspired by recent conversations about Pianosens, it occurred to me that it's not just microphone placement but also proximity to the string that matters. In my search for a cell phone holder to use at the piano, I found that magnetic holders typically used for gym workouts are well-suited for this purpose. (see link below--only $20)

The cast-iron plate of the piano responds to magnets (of course) and with iphones, at least, will hold onto the phone as well,  The cell phone holder, like the one pictured below, can be easily attached to various parts of the plate including the top of the struts. This allows for the cell phone to be oriented in such a way that the microphone points directly at the strings and can be set in close proximity. Keep in mind that the different cell phones have both different numbers of mics and different locations.  For example the iphone 14, which I use has 3 located front, back and on the bottom of the phone. The iphone 15 has two at the bottom plus one front and back.   

Using the magnet mount you can orient the mic very close to the string (I focused on the mic at the bottom of the phone). The piano struts allow this easily and the magnetic holder allows you to move the microphone incrementally during tuning. By orienting the microphone this way, especially in the extremes, I found the indicator much more stable, In the high treble I set the holder on the plate behind the bridge and pointed the bottom of the phone where the mic is located directly, and as close to the speaking length as possible (the magnet will easily attach to the hitch pins).  With this holder you can point the mic straight down onto the strings from the strut bringing it as close to the speaking length as you want.

While this solution may not be as advanced as the high technology Pianosens offers, I found it significantly improved the readings in the difficult, extremes of the piano, 

There are several magnetized holders available online at retailers like Amazon. These are magnetized both to hold the phone and to attach to the surface where you mount the phone.  The magnets are covered in some kind of soft silicone or rubber and so won't damage the plate.  I would have taken a picture of the placement of my phone on the piano, but as you might imagine, I needed the phone to do that. If you'd like pictures, I can set something up and show you where I'm placing it.

Amazon.com: Gym Mate Magnetic iPhone Mount Holder. Attaches magnetically to Metal Surface. Shoot Hands-Free Videos While Working Out. Compatible with MagSafe on iPhones 12/13/14/15. Stable & Secure : Cell Phones & Accessories

My recent search for an ETD holder, coupled with discussions on piano tuning, led me to consider the following. There has been much discussion about microphone placement using ETDs connected to cell phones or similar devices. Inspired by recent conversations about Pianosens, it occurred to me that it's not just microphone placement but also proximity to the string that matters. In my search for a cell phone holder to use at the piano, I found that magnetic holders typically used for gym workouts are well-suited for this purpose. (see link below--only $20)

The cast-iron plate of the piano responds to magnets (of course) and with iphones, at least, will hold onto the phone as well,  The cell phone holder, like the one pictured below, can be easily attached to various parts of the plate including the top of the struts. This allows for the cell phone to be oriented in such a way that the microphone points directly at the strings and can be set in close proximity. Keep in mind that the different cell phones have both different numbers of mics and different locations.  For example the iphone 14, which I use has 3 located front, back and on the bottom of the phone. The iphone 15 has two at the bottom plus one front and back.   

Using the magnet mount you can orient the mic very close to the string (I focused on the mic at the bottom of the phone). The piano struts allow this easily and the magnetic holder allows you to move the microphone incrementally during tuning. By orienting the microphone this way, especially in the extremes, I found the indicator much more stable, In the high treble I set the holder on the plate behind the bridge and pointed the bottom of the phone where the mic is located directly, and as close to the speaking length as possible (the magnet will easily attach to the hitch pins).  With this holder you can point the mic straight down onto the strings from the strut bringing it as close to the speaking length as you want.

While this solution may not be as advanced as the high technology Pianosens offers, I found it significantly improved the readings in the difficult, extremes of the piano, 

There are several magnetized holders available online at retailers like Amazon. These are magnetized both to hold the phone and to attach to the surface where you mount the phone.  The magnets are covered in some kind of soft silicone or rubber and so won't damage the plate.  I would have taken a picture of the placement of my phone on the piano, but as you might imagine, I needed the phone to do that. If you'd like pictures, I can set something up and show you where I'm placing it.

Amazon.com: Gym Mate Magnetic iPhone Mount Holder. Attaches magnetically to Metal Surface. Shoot Hands-Free Videos While Working Out. Compatible with MagSafe on iPhones 12/13/14/15. Stable & Secure : Cell Phones & Accessories

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

It takes the movement of air to produce sound. Putting a mic close to the string does nothing, since the string is moving very little air and producing very little sound itself. The string is the source of all vibrations and sound we hear, but itself is not producing the sound. There is nothing lost detecting the exact vibration of the source, but there is a lot to loose detecting the eigenmodes on the soundboard. The string has more than one mode, and these modes are often close in frequency and amplitude. A string usually produces the 'dominant' string mode over the lesser one, however, the soundboard will often resonate either mode more than the other depending on 'listening' position of the mic or the ear. This explains why we get mic position variances as much as 1-2 cents as has previously been shown with experimental data captures. Therefore, tweaking a mic position cannot be a solution that works across the whole range. 

Steve

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 03-29-2024 00:02
From: David Love
Subject: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

My recent search for an ETD holder, coupled with discussions on piano tuning, led me to consider the following. There has been much discussion about microphone placement using ETDs connected to cell phones or similar devices. Inspired by recent conversations about Pianosens, it occurred to me that it's not just microphone placement but also proximity to the string that matters. In my search for a cell phone holder to use at the piano, I found that magnetic holders typically used for gym workouts are well-suited for this purpose. (see link below--only $20)

The cast-iron plate of the piano responds to magnets (of course) and with iphones, at least, will hold onto the phone as well,  The cell phone holder, like the one pictured below, can be easily attached to various parts of the plate including the top of the struts. This allows for the cell phone to be oriented in such a way that the microphone points directly at the strings and can be set in close proximity. Keep in mind that the different cell phones have both different numbers of mics and different locations.  For example the iphone 14, which I use has 3 located front, back and on the bottom of the phone. The iphone 15 has two at the bottom plus one front and back.   

Using the magnet mount you can orient the mic very close to the string (I focused on the mic at the bottom of the phone). The piano struts allow this easily and the magnetic holder allows you to move the microphone incrementally during tuning. By orienting the microphone this way, especially in the extremes, I found the indicator much more stable, In the high treble I set the holder on the plate behind the bridge and pointed the bottom of the phone where the mic is located directly, and as close to the speaking length as possible (the magnet will easily attach to the hitch pins).  With this holder you can point the mic straight down onto the strings from the strut bringing it as close to the speaking length as you want.

While this solution may not be as advanced as the high technology Pianosens offers, I found it significantly improved the readings in the difficult, extremes of the piano, 

There are several magnetized holders available online at retailers like Amazon. These are magnetized both to hold the phone and to attach to the surface where you mount the phone.  The magnets are covered in some kind of soft silicone or rubber and so won't damage the plate.  I would have taken a picture of the placement of my phone on the piano, but as you might imagine, I needed the phone to do that. If you'd like pictures, I can set something up and show you where I'm placing it.

Amazon.com: Gym Mate Magnetic iPhone Mount Holder. Attaches magnetically to Metal Surface. Shoot Hands-Free Videos While Working Out. Compatible with MagSafe on iPhones 12/13/14/15. Stable & Secure : Cell Phones & Accessories

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Yes that's true. But I thought your device was measuring the string?  If not what's the point of going to the trouble to place it where you do?  

The benefit, I found, was mostly in the high treble where readings are not stable, typically.  I set the mic pointing to the speaking length in close proximity to the soundboard and bridge. I'm sure the mic is picking up the pressure waves from the SB but with, perhaps less interference from other sources. 

With respect to Geoff's comment I think phase cancellation would not be a problem with mics in such close proximity similar to stereo mic techniques in recording. But yes, new phones have three mics and there doesn't appear to be a way to turn individual ones off. 

Anyway, it was more of an observation than a scientific research project. However the magnetic phone holder I found to be the perfect solution for what I was looking for.  I don't want this to turn into an infomercial for any particular product. The last thing I'm looking for is to carry around more "stuff" 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-30-2024 16:47
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

It takes the movement of air to produce sound. Putting a mic close to the string does nothing, since the string is moving very little air and producing very little sound itself. The string is the source of all vibrations and sound we hear, but itself is not producing the sound. There is nothing lost detecting the exact vibration of the source, but there is a lot to loose detecting the eigenmodes on the soundboard. The string has more than one mode, and these modes are often close in frequency and amplitude. A string usually produces the 'dominant' string mode over the lesser one, however, the soundboard will often resonate either mode more than the other depending on 'listening' position of the mic or the ear. This explains why we get mic position variances as much as 1-2 cents as has previously been shown with experimental data captures. Therefore, tweaking a mic position cannot be a solution that works across the whole range. 

Steve

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 03-29-2024 00:02
From: David Love
Subject: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

My recent search for an ETD holder, coupled with discussions on piano tuning, led me to consider the following. There has been much discussion about microphone placement using ETDs connected to cell phones or similar devices. Inspired by recent conversations about Pianosens, it occurred to me that it's not just microphone placement but also proximity to the string that matters. In my search for a cell phone holder to use at the piano, I found that magnetic holders typically used for gym workouts are well-suited for this purpose. (see link below--only $20)

The cast-iron plate of the piano responds to magnets (of course) and with iphones, at least, will hold onto the phone as well,  The cell phone holder, like the one pictured below, can be easily attached to various parts of the plate including the top of the struts. This allows for the cell phone to be oriented in such a way that the microphone points directly at the strings and can be set in close proximity. Keep in mind that the different cell phones have both different numbers of mics and different locations.  For example the iphone 14, which I use has 3 located front, back and on the bottom of the phone. The iphone 15 has two at the bottom plus one front and back.   

Using the magnet mount you can orient the mic very close to the string (I focused on the mic at the bottom of the phone). The piano struts allow this easily and the magnetic holder allows you to move the microphone incrementally during tuning. By orienting the microphone this way, especially in the extremes, I found the indicator much more stable, In the high treble I set the holder on the plate behind the bridge and pointed the bottom of the phone where the mic is located directly, and as close to the speaking length as possible (the magnet will easily attach to the hitch pins).  With this holder you can point the mic straight down onto the strings from the strut bringing it as close to the speaking length as you want.

While this solution may not be as advanced as the high technology Pianosens offers, I found it significantly improved the readings in the difficult, extremes of the piano, 

There are several magnetized holders available online at retailers like Amazon. These are magnetized both to hold the phone and to attach to the surface where you mount the phone.  The magnets are covered in some kind of soft silicone or rubber and so won't damage the plate.  I would have taken a picture of the placement of my phone on the piano, but as you might imagine, I needed the phone to do that. If you'd like pictures, I can set something up and show you where I'm placing it.

Amazon.com: Gym Mate Magnetic iPhone Mount Holder. Attaches magnetically to Metal Surface. Shoot Hands-Free Videos While Working Out. Compatible with MagSafe on iPhones 12/13/14/15. Stable & Secure : Cell Phones & Accessories

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

It is measuring the string's 'physical movement,' and NOT the acoustics that comes from air movement of the string! Major point! An electro-magnetic field is set up and that EM field movement is what it measures, having nothing to do with acoustics. This is partly why we can't expect much from just putting a mic near the string under test. 

Steve

Original Message:
Sent: 3/30/2024 10:05:00 PM
From: David Love
Subject: RE: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

Yes that's true. But I thought your device was measuring the string?  If not what's the point of going to the trouble to place it where you do?  

The benefit, I found, was mostly in the high treble where readings are not stable, typically.  I set the mic pointing to the speaking length in close proximity to the soundboard and bridge. I'm sure the mic is picking up the pressure waves from the SB but with, perhaps less interference from other sources. 

With respect to Geoff's comment I think phase cancellation would not be a problem with mics in such close proximity similar to stereo mic techniques in recording. But yes, new phones have three mics and there doesn't appear to be a way to turn individual ones off. 

Anyway, it was more of an observation than a scientific research project. However the magnetic phone holder I found to be the perfect solution for what I was looking for.  I don't want this to turn into an infomercial for any particular product. The last thing I'm looking for is to carry around more "stuff" 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 03-30-2024 16:47
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

It takes the movement of air to produce sound. Putting a mic close to the string does nothing, since the string is moving very little air and producing very little sound itself. The string is the source of all vibrations and sound we hear, but itself is not producing the sound. There is nothing lost detecting the exact vibration of the source, but there is a lot to loose detecting the eigenmodes on the soundboard. The string has more than one mode, and these modes are often close in frequency and amplitude. A string usually produces the 'dominant' string mode over the lesser one, however, the soundboard will often resonate either mode more than the other depending on 'listening' position of the mic or the ear. This explains why we get mic position variances as much as 1-2 cents as has previously been shown with experimental data captures. Therefore, tweaking a mic position cannot be a solution that works across the whole range. 

Steve

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 03-29-2024 00:02
From: David Love
Subject: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

My recent search for an ETD holder, coupled with discussions on piano tuning, led me to consider the following. There has been much discussion about microphone placement using ETDs connected to cell phones or similar devices. Inspired by recent conversations about Pianosens, it occurred to me that it's not just microphone placement but also proximity to the string that matters. In my search for a cell phone holder to use at the piano, I found that magnetic holders typically used for gym workouts are well-suited for this purpose. (see link below--only $20)

The cast-iron plate of the piano responds to magnets (of course) and with iphones, at least, will hold onto the phone as well,  The cell phone holder, like the one pictured below, can be easily attached to various parts of the plate including the top of the struts. This allows for the cell phone to be oriented in such a way that the microphone points directly at the strings and can be set in close proximity. Keep in mind that the different cell phones have both different numbers of mics and different locations.  For example the iphone 14, which I use has 3 located front, back and on the bottom of the phone. The iphone 15 has two at the bottom plus one front and back.   

Using the magnet mount you can orient the mic very close to the string (I focused on the mic at the bottom of the phone). The piano struts allow this easily and the magnetic holder allows you to move the microphone incrementally during tuning. By orienting the microphone this way, especially in the extremes, I found the indicator much more stable, In the high treble I set the holder on the plate behind the bridge and pointed the bottom of the phone where the mic is located directly, and as close to the speaking length as possible (the magnet will easily attach to the hitch pins).  With this holder you can point the mic straight down onto the strings from the strut bringing it as close to the speaking length as you want.

While this solution may not be as advanced as the high technology Pianosens offers, I found it significantly improved the readings in the difficult, extremes of the piano, 

There are several magnetized holders available online at retailers like Amazon. These are magnetized both to hold the phone and to attach to the surface where you mount the phone.  The magnets are covered in some kind of soft silicone or rubber and so won't damage the plate.  I would have taken a picture of the placement of my phone on the piano, but as you might imagine, I needed the phone to do that. If you'd like pictures, I can set something up and show you where I'm placing it.

Amazon.com: Gym Mate Magnetic iPhone Mount Holder. Attaches magnetically to Metal Surface. Shoot Hands-Free Videos While Working Out. Compatible with MagSafe on iPhones 12/13/14/15. Stable & Secure : Cell Phones & Accessories

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

In a microphone-based system:

There is a VERY strongly entrenched idea in the ETD world that by the time the unit's signal (i.e. display) has "stabilized", it is now ACCURATE. This turns out to be only partially true. Yes, it is accurate to the frequency it has stabilized at, however that frequency is likely NOT as near to the initial frequency generated by the keystroke as we ASSUMED it was (or want to assume it is). One reason is that (and everybody knows this) the pitch changes quickly over the first second and often further into the second second. So the frequency being read is whatever the note has decayed to within that time frame (whatever that happens to be). Secondly, this decay rate is inconsistent from note to note, therefore adding to the inconsistencies in reading. Thirdly, there is "noise" coming in with the keystroke, etc. that is picked up which further reduces the true accuracy of the reading. Fourthly (as all ETD users are prone to do out of necessity), the unit position must be changed from time to time which now introduces an entirely new element of inconsistency.

All of this is HIDDEN from the user. Why? Because: 1) the ETD does not "tell" us it is occurring...it shows us something (that assume to be what we think it is) but it does not "tell" us everything that is happening in between, and 2) We have been conditioned (I will not spell out precisely how) to BELIEVE that we are supposed to wait until the vibrations "settle" or "coalesce", or whatever, and once this occurs we can now read it accurately.  THIS turns out to be a fallacy. True...not a deal-breaking fallacy...but a fallacy nonetheless. A fallacy that under certain circumstances can in fact combine to create technically significant errors if left to themselves (IOW not checked or verified aurally in an analog fashion). 

Reading the string vibrations at the source eliminates the lion's share of possible errors and unlocks the TRUE potential accuracy of these amazing little beasties (ETD's).  There is a fundamental difference between reading with a mic vs reading with a sensor. One is consistently more accurate than the other. I could go on but it's late and I'm going to bed.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

It is measuring the string's 'physical movement,' and NOT the acoustics that comes from air movement of the string! Major point! An electro-magnetic field is set up and that EM field movement is what it measures, having nothing to do with acoustics. This is partly why we can't expect much from just putting a mic near the string under test. 

Steve

Original Message:
Sent: 3/30/2024 10:05:00 PM
From: David Love
Subject: RE: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

Yes that's true. But I thought your device was measuring the string?  If not what's the point of going to the trouble to place it where you do?  

The benefit, I found, was mostly in the high treble where readings are not stable, typically.  I set the mic pointing to the speaking length in close proximity to the soundboard and bridge. I'm sure the mic is picking up the pressure waves from the SB but with, perhaps less interference from other sources. 

With respect to Geoff's comment I think phase cancellation would not be a problem with mics in such close proximity similar to stereo mic techniques in recording. But yes, new phones have three mics and there doesn't appear to be a way to turn individual ones off. 

Anyway, it was more of an observation than a scientific research project. However the magnetic phone holder I found to be the perfect solution for what I was looking for.  I don't want this to turn into an infomercial for any particular product. The last thing I'm looking for is to carry around more "stuff" 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 03-30-2024 16:47
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

It takes the movement of air to produce sound. Putting a mic close to the string does nothing, since the string is moving very little air and producing very little sound itself. The string is the source of all vibrations and sound we hear, but itself is not producing the sound. There is nothing lost detecting the exact vibration of the source, but there is a lot to loose detecting the eigenmodes on the soundboard. The string has more than one mode, and these modes are often close in frequency and amplitude. A string usually produces the 'dominant' string mode over the lesser one, however, the soundboard will often resonate either mode more than the other depending on 'listening' position of the mic or the ear. This explains why we get mic position variances as much as 1-2 cents as has previously been shown with experimental data captures. Therefore, tweaking a mic position cannot be a solution that works across the whole range. 

Steve

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 03-29-2024 00:02
From: David Love
Subject: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

My recent search for an ETD holder, coupled with discussions on piano tuning, led me to consider the following. There has been much discussion about microphone placement using ETDs connected to cell phones or similar devices. Inspired by recent conversations about Pianosens, it occurred to me that it's not just microphone placement but also proximity to the string that matters. In my search for a cell phone holder to use at the piano, I found that magnetic holders typically used for gym workouts are well-suited for this purpose. (see link below--only $20)

The cast-iron plate of the piano responds to magnets (of course) and with iphones, at least, will hold onto the phone as well,  The cell phone holder, like the one pictured below, can be easily attached to various parts of the plate including the top of the struts. This allows for the cell phone to be oriented in such a way that the microphone points directly at the strings and can be set in close proximity. Keep in mind that the different cell phones have both different numbers of mics and different locations.  For example the iphone 14, which I use has 3 located front, back and on the bottom of the phone. The iphone 15 has two at the bottom plus one front and back.   

Using the magnet mount you can orient the mic very close to the string (I focused on the mic at the bottom of the phone). The piano struts allow this easily and the magnetic holder allows you to move the microphone incrementally during tuning. By orienting the microphone this way, especially in the extremes, I found the indicator much more stable, In the high treble I set the holder on the plate behind the bridge and pointed the bottom of the phone where the mic is located directly, and as close to the speaking length as possible (the magnet will easily attach to the hitch pins).  With this holder you can point the mic straight down onto the strings from the strut bringing it as close to the speaking length as you want.

While this solution may not be as advanced as the high technology Pianosens offers, I found it significantly improved the readings in the difficult, extremes of the piano, 

There are several magnetized holders available online at retailers like Amazon. These are magnetized both to hold the phone and to attach to the surface where you mount the phone.  The magnets are covered in some kind of soft silicone or rubber and so won't damage the plate.  I would have taken a picture of the placement of my phone on the piano, but as you might imagine, I needed the phone to do that. If you'd like pictures, I can set something up and show you where I'm placing it.

Amazon.com: Gym Mate Magnetic iPhone Mount Holder. Attaches magnetically to Metal Surface. Shoot Hands-Free Videos While Working Out. Compatible with MagSafe on iPhones 12/13/14/15. Stable & Secure : Cell Phones & Accessories

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

It is measuring the string's 'physical movement,' and NOT the acoustics that comes from air movement of the string! Major point! An electro-magnetic field is set up and that EM field movement is what it measures, having nothing to do with acoustics. This is partly why we can't expect much from just putting a mic near the string under test. 

Steve

Original Message:
Sent: 3/30/2024 10:05:00 PM
From: David Love
Subject: RE: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

Yes that's true. But I thought your device was measuring the string?  If not what's the point of going to the trouble to place it where you do?  

The benefit, I found, was mostly in the high treble where readings are not stable, typically.  I set the mic pointing to the speaking length in close proximity to the soundboard and bridge. I'm sure the mic is picking up the pressure waves from the SB but with, perhaps less interference from other sources. 

With respect to Geoff's comment I think phase cancellation would not be a problem with mics in such close proximity similar to stereo mic techniques in recording. But yes, new phones have three mics and there doesn't appear to be a way to turn individual ones off. 

Anyway, it was more of an observation than a scientific research project. However the magnetic phone holder I found to be the perfect solution for what I was looking for.  I don't want this to turn into an infomercial for any particular product. The last thing I'm looking for is to carry around more "stuff" 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 03-30-2024 16:47
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

It takes the movement of air to produce sound. Putting a mic close to the string does nothing, since the string is moving very little air and producing very little sound itself. The string is the source of all vibrations and sound we hear, but itself is not producing the sound. There is nothing lost detecting the exact vibration of the source, but there is a lot to loose detecting the eigenmodes on the soundboard. The string has more than one mode, and these modes are often close in frequency and amplitude. A string usually produces the 'dominant' string mode over the lesser one, however, the soundboard will often resonate either mode more than the other depending on 'listening' position of the mic or the ear. This explains why we get mic position variances as much as 1-2 cents as has previously been shown with experimental data captures. Therefore, tweaking a mic position cannot be a solution that works across the whole range. 

Steve

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 03-29-2024 00:02
From: David Love
Subject: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

My recent search for an ETD holder, coupled with discussions on piano tuning, led me to consider the following. There has been much discussion about microphone placement using ETDs connected to cell phones or similar devices. Inspired by recent conversations about Pianosens, it occurred to me that it's not just microphone placement but also proximity to the string that matters. In my search for a cell phone holder to use at the piano, I found that magnetic holders typically used for gym workouts are well-suited for this purpose. (see link below--only $20)

The cast-iron plate of the piano responds to magnets (of course) and with iphones, at least, will hold onto the phone as well,  The cell phone holder, like the one pictured below, can be easily attached to various parts of the plate including the top of the struts. This allows for the cell phone to be oriented in such a way that the microphone points directly at the strings and can be set in close proximity. Keep in mind that the different cell phones have both different numbers of mics and different locations.  For example the iphone 14, which I use has 3 located front, back and on the bottom of the phone. The iphone 15 has two at the bottom plus one front and back.   

Using the magnet mount you can orient the mic very close to the string (I focused on the mic at the bottom of the phone). The piano struts allow this easily and the magnetic holder allows you to move the microphone incrementally during tuning. By orienting the microphone this way, especially in the extremes, I found the indicator much more stable, In the high treble I set the holder on the plate behind the bridge and pointed the bottom of the phone where the mic is located directly, and as close to the speaking length as possible (the magnet will easily attach to the hitch pins).  With this holder you can point the mic straight down onto the strings from the strut bringing it as close to the speaking length as you want.

While this solution may not be as advanced as the high technology Pianosens offers, I found it significantly improved the readings in the difficult, extremes of the piano, 

There are several magnetized holders available online at retailers like Amazon. These are magnetized both to hold the phone and to attach to the surface where you mount the phone.  The magnets are covered in some kind of soft silicone or rubber and so won't damage the plate.  I would have taken a picture of the placement of my phone on the piano, but as you might imagine, I needed the phone to do that. If you'd like pictures, I can set something up and show you where I'm placing it.

Amazon.com: Gym Mate Magnetic iPhone Mount Holder. Attaches magnetically to Metal Surface. Shoot Hands-Free Videos While Working Out. Compatible with MagSafe on iPhones 12/13/14/15. Stable & Secure : Cell Phones & Accessories

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

I use a setup just like Geoff's with V/tuner. I place my iPod inline (of sight) with the area I'm working for two reasons, one, I don't have to turn my head to see it and two, I get a stronger signal. The device isn't closer than a few inches from the strings so I don't believe it's getting any signal straight off the strings. I don't know why the signal is stronger, one speculation is that in this "near field" the sound is localized to a limited extent close to the source. Fwiw, I have not been able to discern a change in the readings by moving the device/mic to different locations up to 4' testing along the line of the pin block; stronger signal close to the source of the sound, no frequency change. Not really scientific but have tried this on several pianos. I do lay the device right on the strings next stgs 86,7,&8 to get the strongest signal which is still not very good. 

A couple more speculations. I suppose that the loudest signal off the board is the area of greatest excursion. Which is where? Help me out here.

Steve reports that the best signal for the sensor is near the terminal points, is it possible that the inverse is true and the area close to the bridge is acoustically the richest in harmonics?

The rim is also a terminus, I've noticed that live-sound engineers almost always place a mic in one of the tone-holes in the plate, which is near the rim. Probably the only mic placement that engineers seem to agree on.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 03-30-2024 22:10
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

It is measuring the string's 'physical movement,' and NOT the acoustics that comes from air movement of the string! Major point! An electro-magnetic field is set up and that EM field movement is what it measures, having nothing to do with acoustics. This is partly why we can't expect much from just putting a mic near the string under test. 

Steve

Original Message:
Sent: 3/30/2024 10:05:00 PM
From: David Love
Subject: RE: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

Yes that's true. But I thought your device was measuring the string?  If not what's the point of going to the trouble to place it where you do?  

The benefit, I found, was mostly in the high treble where readings are not stable, typically.  I set the mic pointing to the speaking length in close proximity to the soundboard and bridge. I'm sure the mic is picking up the pressure waves from the SB but with, perhaps less interference from other sources. 

With respect to Geoff's comment I think phase cancellation would not be a problem with mics in such close proximity similar to stereo mic techniques in recording. But yes, new phones have three mics and there doesn't appear to be a way to turn individual ones off. 

Anyway, it was more of an observation than a scientific research project. However the magnetic phone holder I found to be the perfect solution for what I was looking for.  I don't want this to turn into an infomercial for any particular product. The last thing I'm looking for is to carry around more "stuff" 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 03-30-2024 16:47
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

It takes the movement of air to produce sound. Putting a mic close to the string does nothing, since the string is moving very little air and producing very little sound itself. The string is the source of all vibrations and sound we hear, but itself is not producing the sound. There is nothing lost detecting the exact vibration of the source, but there is a lot to loose detecting the eigenmodes on the soundboard. The string has more than one mode, and these modes are often close in frequency and amplitude. A string usually produces the 'dominant' string mode over the lesser one, however, the soundboard will often resonate either mode more than the other depending on 'listening' position of the mic or the ear. This explains why we get mic position variances as much as 1-2 cents as has previously been shown with experimental data captures. Therefore, tweaking a mic position cannot be a solution that works across the whole range. 

Steve

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 03-29-2024 00:02
From: David Love
Subject: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

My recent search for an ETD holder, coupled with discussions on piano tuning, led me to consider the following. There has been much discussion about microphone placement using ETDs connected to cell phones or similar devices. Inspired by recent conversations about Pianosens, it occurred to me that it's not just microphone placement but also proximity to the string that matters. In my search for a cell phone holder to use at the piano, I found that magnetic holders typically used for gym workouts are well-suited for this purpose. (see link below--only $20)

The cast-iron plate of the piano responds to magnets (of course) and with iphones, at least, will hold onto the phone as well,  The cell phone holder, like the one pictured below, can be easily attached to various parts of the plate including the top of the struts. This allows for the cell phone to be oriented in such a way that the microphone points directly at the strings and can be set in close proximity. Keep in mind that the different cell phones have both different numbers of mics and different locations.  For example the iphone 14, which I use has 3 located front, back and on the bottom of the phone. The iphone 15 has two at the bottom plus one front and back.   

Using the magnet mount you can orient the mic very close to the string (I focused on the mic at the bottom of the phone). The piano struts allow this easily and the magnetic holder allows you to move the microphone incrementally during tuning. By orienting the microphone this way, especially in the extremes, I found the indicator much more stable, In the high treble I set the holder on the plate behind the bridge and pointed the bottom of the phone where the mic is located directly, and as close to the speaking length as possible (the magnet will easily attach to the hitch pins).  With this holder you can point the mic straight down onto the strings from the strut bringing it as close to the speaking length as you want.

While this solution may not be as advanced as the high technology Pianosens offers, I found it significantly improved the readings in the difficult, extremes of the piano, 

There are several magnetized holders available online at retailers like Amazon. These are magnetized both to hold the phone and to attach to the surface where you mount the phone.  The magnets are covered in some kind of soft silicone or rubber and so won't damage the plate.  I would have taken a picture of the placement of my phone on the piano, but as you might imagine, I needed the phone to do that. If you'd like pictures, I can set something up and show you where I'm placing it.

Amazon.com: Gym Mate Magnetic iPhone Mount Holder. Attaches magnetically to Metal Surface. Shoot Hands-Free Videos While Working Out. Compatible with MagSafe on iPhones 12/13/14/15. Stable & Secure : Cell Phones & Accessories

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

I use a setup just like Geoff's with V/tuner. I place my iPod inline (of sight) with the area I'm working for two reasons, one, I don't have to turn my head to see it and two, I get a stronger signal. The device isn't closer than a few inches from the strings so I don't believe it's getting any signal straight off the strings. I don't know why the signal is stronger, one speculation is that in this "near field" the sound is localized to a limited extent close to the source. Fwiw, I have not been able to discern a change in the readings by moving the device/mic to different locations up to 4' testing along the line of the pin block; stronger signal close to the source of the sound, no frequency change. Not really scientific but have tried this on several pianos. I do lay the device right on the strings next stgs 86,7,&8 to get the strongest signal which is still not very good. 

A couple more speculations. I suppose that the loudest signal off the board is the area of greatest excursion. Which is where? Help me out here.

Steve reports that the best signal for the sensor is near the terminal points, is it possible that the inverse is true and the area close to the bridge is acoustically the richest in harmonics?

The rim is also a terminus, I've noticed that live-sound engineers almost always place a mic in one of the tone-holes in the plate, which is near the rim. Probably the only mic placement that engineers seem to agree on.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 03-30-2024 22:10
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

It is measuring the string's 'physical movement,' and NOT the acoustics that comes from air movement of the string! Major point! An electro-magnetic field is set up and that EM field movement is what it measures, having nothing to do with acoustics. This is partly why we can't expect much from just putting a mic near the string under test. 

Steve

Original Message:
Sent: 3/30/2024 10:05:00 PM
From: David Love
Subject: RE: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

Yes that's true. But I thought your device was measuring the string?  If not what's the point of going to the trouble to place it where you do?  

The benefit, I found, was mostly in the high treble where readings are not stable, typically.  I set the mic pointing to the speaking length in close proximity to the soundboard and bridge. I'm sure the mic is picking up the pressure waves from the SB but with, perhaps less interference from other sources. 

With respect to Geoff's comment I think phase cancellation would not be a problem with mics in such close proximity similar to stereo mic techniques in recording. But yes, new phones have three mics and there doesn't appear to be a way to turn individual ones off. 

Anyway, it was more of an observation than a scientific research project. However the magnetic phone holder I found to be the perfect solution for what I was looking for.  I don't want this to turn into an infomercial for any particular product. The last thing I'm looking for is to carry around more "stuff" 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 03-30-2024 16:47
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

It takes the movement of air to produce sound. Putting a mic close to the string does nothing, since the string is moving very little air and producing very little sound itself. The string is the source of all vibrations and sound we hear, but itself is not producing the sound. There is nothing lost detecting the exact vibration of the source, but there is a lot to loose detecting the eigenmodes on the soundboard. The string has more than one mode, and these modes are often close in frequency and amplitude. A string usually produces the 'dominant' string mode over the lesser one, however, the soundboard will often resonate either mode more than the other depending on 'listening' position of the mic or the ear. This explains why we get mic position variances as much as 1-2 cents as has previously been shown with experimental data captures. Therefore, tweaking a mic position cannot be a solution that works across the whole range. 

Steve

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 03-29-2024 00:02
From: David Love
Subject: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

My recent search for an ETD holder, coupled with discussions on piano tuning, led me to consider the following. There has been much discussion about microphone placement using ETDs connected to cell phones or similar devices. Inspired by recent conversations about Pianosens, it occurred to me that it's not just microphone placement but also proximity to the string that matters. In my search for a cell phone holder to use at the piano, I found that magnetic holders typically used for gym workouts are well-suited for this purpose. (see link below--only $20)

The cast-iron plate of the piano responds to magnets (of course) and with iphones, at least, will hold onto the phone as well,  The cell phone holder, like the one pictured below, can be easily attached to various parts of the plate including the top of the struts. This allows for the cell phone to be oriented in such a way that the microphone points directly at the strings and can be set in close proximity. Keep in mind that the different cell phones have both different numbers of mics and different locations.  For example the iphone 14, which I use has 3 located front, back and on the bottom of the phone. The iphone 15 has two at the bottom plus one front and back.   

Using the magnet mount you can orient the mic very close to the string (I focused on the mic at the bottom of the phone). The piano struts allow this easily and the magnetic holder allows you to move the microphone incrementally during tuning. By orienting the microphone this way, especially in the extremes, I found the indicator much more stable, In the high treble I set the holder on the plate behind the bridge and pointed the bottom of the phone where the mic is located directly, and as close to the speaking length as possible (the magnet will easily attach to the hitch pins).  With this holder you can point the mic straight down onto the strings from the strut bringing it as close to the speaking length as you want.

While this solution may not be as advanced as the high technology Pianosens offers, I found it significantly improved the readings in the difficult, extremes of the piano, 

There are several magnetized holders available online at retailers like Amazon. These are magnetized both to hold the phone and to attach to the surface where you mount the phone.  The magnets are covered in some kind of soft silicone or rubber and so won't damage the plate.  I would have taken a picture of the placement of my phone on the piano, but as you might imagine, I needed the phone to do that. If you'd like pictures, I can set something up and show you where I'm placing it.

Amazon.com: Gym Mate Magnetic iPhone Mount Holder. Attaches magnetically to Metal Surface. Shoot Hands-Free Videos While Working Out. Compatible with MagSafe on iPhones 12/13/14/15. Stable & Secure : Cell Phones & Accessories

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

David -

> With respect to Geoff's comment I think phase cancellation would not be a problem with mics in such close proximity similar to stereo mic techniques in recording. But yes, new phones have three mics and there doesn't appear to be a way to turn individual ones off. 

True, we don't have control over which mics are active. Any audio related app we may be using takes control over, or uses only the mic(s) it requires to do its job. I seriously don't think any of the ETD's are accessing more than the single mic located at the bottom of the phone. Using more would simply create phasing problems between the two, or three, mic signals and would cause serious calculation problems. Combining the signals from two mics into a single source, or mono channel, will always result it some amount of concellation due to the time difference of the audio waveform hitting the two mics at different times. Can't be avoided. 

Steven -

> I've noticed that live-sound engineers almost always place a mic in one of the tone-holes in the plate, which is near the rim. Probably the only mic placement that engineers seem to agree on.

Back in the 24 track analogue days I was a studio recording engineer. From experience and observation I would like to suggest that many recording engineers place the mic in the "tone holes" in the plate because they assume the holes are there to let out more sound. They're wrong. The holes in the plate are there to allow for the plate to cool evenly after being cast, and to help prevent cracking and weak spots. Engineers who have taken the time to stick their head in a piano and actually listen to where the best sound is coming from rarely select the plate holes as a place to put the mics. 

I use a setup just like Geoff's with V/tuner. I place my iPod inline (of sight) with the area I'm working for two reasons, one, I don't have to turn my head to see it and two, I get a stronger signal. The device isn't closer than a few inches from the strings so I don't believe it's getting any signal straight off the strings. I don't know why the signal is stronger, one speculation is that in this "near field" the sound is localized to a limited extent close to the source. Fwiw, I have not been able to discern a change in the readings by moving the device/mic to different locations up to 4' testing along the line of the pin block; stronger signal close to the source of the sound, no frequency change. Not really scientific but have tried this on several pianos. I do lay the device right on the strings next stgs 86,7,&8 to get the strongest signal which is still not very good. 

A couple more speculations. I suppose that the loudest signal off the board is the area of greatest excursion. Which is where? Help me out here.

Steve reports that the best signal for the sensor is near the terminal points, is it possible that the inverse is true and the area close to the bridge is acoustically the richest in harmonics?

The rim is also a terminus, I've noticed that live-sound engineers almost always place a mic in one of the tone-holes in the plate, which is near the rim. Probably the only mic placement that engineers seem to agree on.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 03-30-2024 22:10
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

It is measuring the string's 'physical movement,' and NOT the acoustics that comes from air movement of the string! Major point! An electro-magnetic field is set up and that EM field movement is what it measures, having nothing to do with acoustics. This is partly why we can't expect much from just putting a mic near the string under test. 

Steve

Original Message:
Sent: 3/30/2024 10:05:00 PM
From: David Love
Subject: RE: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

Yes that's true. But I thought your device was measuring the string?  If not what's the point of going to the trouble to place it where you do?  

The benefit, I found, was mostly in the high treble where readings are not stable, typically.  I set the mic pointing to the speaking length in close proximity to the soundboard and bridge. I'm sure the mic is picking up the pressure waves from the SB but with, perhaps less interference from other sources. 

With respect to Geoff's comment I think phase cancellation would not be a problem with mics in such close proximity similar to stereo mic techniques in recording. But yes, new phones have three mics and there doesn't appear to be a way to turn individual ones off. 

Anyway, it was more of an observation than a scientific research project. However the magnetic phone holder I found to be the perfect solution for what I was looking for.  I don't want this to turn into an infomercial for any particular product. The last thing I'm looking for is to carry around more "stuff" 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 03-30-2024 16:47
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

It takes the movement of air to produce sound. Putting a mic close to the string does nothing, since the string is moving very little air and producing very little sound itself. The string is the source of all vibrations and sound we hear, but itself is not producing the sound. There is nothing lost detecting the exact vibration of the source, but there is a lot to loose detecting the eigenmodes on the soundboard. The string has more than one mode, and these modes are often close in frequency and amplitude. A string usually produces the 'dominant' string mode over the lesser one, however, the soundboard will often resonate either mode more than the other depending on 'listening' position of the mic or the ear. This explains why we get mic position variances as much as 1-2 cents as has previously been shown with experimental data captures. Therefore, tweaking a mic position cannot be a solution that works across the whole range. 

Steve

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 03-29-2024 00:02
From: David Love
Subject: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

My recent search for an ETD holder, coupled with discussions on piano tuning, led me to consider the following. There has been much discussion about microphone placement using ETDs connected to cell phones or similar devices. Inspired by recent conversations about Pianosens, it occurred to me that it's not just microphone placement but also proximity to the string that matters. In my search for a cell phone holder to use at the piano, I found that magnetic holders typically used for gym workouts are well-suited for this purpose. (see link below--only $20)

The cast-iron plate of the piano responds to magnets (of course) and with iphones, at least, will hold onto the phone as well,  The cell phone holder, like the one pictured below, can be easily attached to various parts of the plate including the top of the struts. This allows for the cell phone to be oriented in such a way that the microphone points directly at the strings and can be set in close proximity. Keep in mind that the different cell phones have both different numbers of mics and different locations.  For example the iphone 14, which I use has 3 located front, back and on the bottom of the phone. The iphone 15 has two at the bottom plus one front and back.   

Using the magnet mount you can orient the mic very close to the string (I focused on the mic at the bottom of the phone). The piano struts allow this easily and the magnetic holder allows you to move the microphone incrementally during tuning. By orienting the microphone this way, especially in the extremes, I found the indicator much more stable, In the high treble I set the holder on the plate behind the bridge and pointed the bottom of the phone where the mic is located directly, and as close to the speaking length as possible (the magnet will easily attach to the hitch pins).  With this holder you can point the mic straight down onto the strings from the strut bringing it as close to the speaking length as you want.

While this solution may not be as advanced as the high technology Pianosens offers, I found it significantly improved the readings in the difficult, extremes of the piano, 

There are several magnetized holders available online at retailers like Amazon. These are magnetized both to hold the phone and to attach to the surface where you mount the phone.  The magnets are covered in some kind of soft silicone or rubber and so won't damage the plate.  I would have taken a picture of the placement of my phone on the piano, but as you might imagine, I needed the phone to do that. If you'd like pictures, I can set something up and show you where I'm placing it.

Amazon.com: Gym Mate Magnetic iPhone Mount Holder. Attaches magnetically to Metal Surface. Shoot Hands-Free Videos While Working Out. Compatible with MagSafe on iPhones 12/13/14/15. Stable & Secure : Cell Phones & Accessories

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Yes that's true. But I thought your device was measuring the string?  If not what's the point of going to the trouble to place it where you do?  

The benefit, I found, was mostly in the high treble where readings are not stable, typically.  I set the mic pointing to the speaking length in close proximity to the soundboard and bridge. I'm sure the mic is picking up the pressure waves from the SB but with, perhaps less interference from other sources. 

With respect to Geoff's comment I think phase cancellation would not be a problem with mics in such close proximity similar to stereo mic techniques in recording. But yes, new phones have three mics and there doesn't appear to be a way to turn individual ones off. 

Anyway, it was more of an observation than a scientific research project. However the magnetic phone holder I found to be the perfect solution for what I was looking for.  I don't want this to turn into an infomercial for any particular product. The last thing I'm looking for is to carry around more "stuff" 

It takes the movement of air to produce sound. Putting a mic close to the string does nothing, since the string is moving very little air and producing very little sound itself. The string is the source of all vibrations and sound we hear, but itself is not producing the sound. There is nothing lost detecting the exact vibration of the source, but there is a lot to loose detecting the eigenmodes on the soundboard. The string has more than one mode, and these modes are often close in frequency and amplitude. A string usually produces the 'dominant' string mode over the lesser one, however, the soundboard will often resonate either mode more than the other depending on 'listening' position of the mic or the ear. This explains why we get mic position variances as much as 1-2 cents as has previously been shown with experimental data captures. Therefore, tweaking a mic position cannot be a solution that works across the whole range. 

Steve

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 03-29-2024 00:02
From: David Love
Subject: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

My recent search for an ETD holder, coupled with discussions on piano tuning, led me to consider the following. There has been much discussion about microphone placement using ETDs connected to cell phones or similar devices. Inspired by recent conversations about Pianosens, it occurred to me that it's not just microphone placement but also proximity to the string that matters. In my search for a cell phone holder to use at the piano, I found that magnetic holders typically used for gym workouts are well-suited for this purpose. (see link below--only $20)

The cast-iron plate of the piano responds to magnets (of course) and with iphones, at least, will hold onto the phone as well,  The cell phone holder, like the one pictured below, can be easily attached to various parts of the plate including the top of the struts. This allows for the cell phone to be oriented in such a way that the microphone points directly at the strings and can be set in close proximity. Keep in mind that the different cell phones have both different numbers of mics and different locations.  For example the iphone 14, which I use has 3 located front, back and on the bottom of the phone. The iphone 15 has two at the bottom plus one front and back.   

Using the magnet mount you can orient the mic very close to the string (I focused on the mic at the bottom of the phone). The piano struts allow this easily and the magnetic holder allows you to move the microphone incrementally during tuning. By orienting the microphone this way, especially in the extremes, I found the indicator much more stable, In the high treble I set the holder on the plate behind the bridge and pointed the bottom of the phone where the mic is located directly, and as close to the speaking length as possible (the magnet will easily attach to the hitch pins).  With this holder you can point the mic straight down onto the strings from the strut bringing it as close to the speaking length as you want.

While this solution may not be as advanced as the high technology Pianosens offers, I found it significantly improved the readings in the difficult, extremes of the piano, 

There are several magnetized holders available online at retailers like Amazon. These are magnetized both to hold the phone and to attach to the surface where you mount the phone.  The magnets are covered in some kind of soft silicone or rubber and so won't damage the plate.  I would have taken a picture of the placement of my phone on the piano, but as you might imagine, I needed the phone to do that. If you'd like pictures, I can set something up and show you where I'm placing it.

Amazon.com: Gym Mate Magnetic iPhone Mount Holder. Attaches magnetically to Metal Surface. Shoot Hands-Free Videos While Working Out. Compatible with MagSafe on iPhones 12/13/14/15. Stable & Secure : Cell Phones & Accessories

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Along David's lines, I tried an experiment, but with an external mic I'd forgotten I owned (Dayton Audio iMM-6 calibrated measurement mic) attached to a magnetic flexible gooseneck alligator clamp meant for soldering use, combined with a 3' audio extension cable, so I could move the mic where I wanted while keeping the phone at a convenient viewing location. (I use CyberTuner)

The clamp has a magnetic base and the gooseneck is very firm and holds it position well (after these pictures I added a piece of thin bushing cloth to the base of the clamp to avoid any potential for scratching/marring the plate). I wish the alligatorclamp itself was slightly larger so I could fit the barrel of the mic in the clamp, but it holds the cable firmly.

Setup and use was actually pretty easy. It's easy to position the mic where I want it, and it's easy to swivel the clamp on it's base to move the mic as you tune without having to reposition the clamp itself too often.

It is a little trickier to position in the top capo section to not get in the way of the lever, but it is possible.

Overall, the readouts were much steadier across the keyboard, and especially in the treble, but mic positioning is finickier in the treble to get those clean readouts, and chasing those cleaner readouts does add a little time. I haven't decided if the improvements in readout clarity are worth the tradeoffs yet. It does add a few extra pieces to the kit, and a little extra time in the treble. I don't think I'd want to add anything bulkier than this to my tuning kit, but could see how one could get used to moving a few extra pieces around as you tune, without it slowing you down too much. 

Yes that's true. But I thought your device was measuring the string?  If not what's the point of going to the trouble to place it where you do?  

The benefit, I found, was mostly in the high treble where readings are not stable, typically.  I set the mic pointing to the speaking length in close proximity to the soundboard and bridge. I'm sure the mic is picking up the pressure waves from the SB but with, perhaps less interference from other sources. 

With respect to Geoff's comment I think phase cancellation would not be a problem with mics in such close proximity similar to stereo mic techniques in recording. But yes, new phones have three mics and there doesn't appear to be a way to turn individual ones off. 

Anyway, it was more of an observation than a scientific research project. However the magnetic phone holder I found to be the perfect solution for what I was looking for.  I don't want this to turn into an infomercial for any particular product. The last thing I'm looking for is to carry around more "stuff" 

It takes the movement of air to produce sound. Putting a mic close to the string does nothing, since the string is moving very little air and producing very little sound itself. The string is the source of all vibrations and sound we hear, but itself is not producing the sound. There is nothing lost detecting the exact vibration of the source, but there is a lot to loose detecting the eigenmodes on the soundboard. The string has more than one mode, and these modes are often close in frequency and amplitude. A string usually produces the 'dominant' string mode over the lesser one, however, the soundboard will often resonate either mode more than the other depending on 'listening' position of the mic or the ear. This explains why we get mic position variances as much as 1-2 cents as has previously been shown with experimental data captures. Therefore, tweaking a mic position cannot be a solution that works across the whole range. 

Steve

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 03-29-2024 00:02
From: David Love
Subject: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

My recent search for an ETD holder, coupled with discussions on piano tuning, led me to consider the following. There has been much discussion about microphone placement using ETDs connected to cell phones or similar devices. Inspired by recent conversations about Pianosens, it occurred to me that it's not just microphone placement but also proximity to the string that matters. In my search for a cell phone holder to use at the piano, I found that magnetic holders typically used for gym workouts are well-suited for this purpose. (see link below--only $20)

The cast-iron plate of the piano responds to magnets (of course) and with iphones, at least, will hold onto the phone as well,  The cell phone holder, like the one pictured below, can be easily attached to various parts of the plate including the top of the struts. This allows for the cell phone to be oriented in such a way that the microphone points directly at the strings and can be set in close proximity. Keep in mind that the different cell phones have both different numbers of mics and different locations.  For example the iphone 14, which I use has 3 located front, back and on the bottom of the phone. The iphone 15 has two at the bottom plus one front and back.   

Using the magnet mount you can orient the mic very close to the string (I focused on the mic at the bottom of the phone). The piano struts allow this easily and the magnetic holder allows you to move the microphone incrementally during tuning. By orienting the microphone this way, especially in the extremes, I found the indicator much more stable, In the high treble I set the holder on the plate behind the bridge and pointed the bottom of the phone where the mic is located directly, and as close to the speaking length as possible (the magnet will easily attach to the hitch pins).  With this holder you can point the mic straight down onto the strings from the strut bringing it as close to the speaking length as you want.

While this solution may not be as advanced as the high technology Pianosens offers, I found it significantly improved the readings in the difficult, extremes of the piano, 

There are several magnetized holders available online at retailers like Amazon. These are magnetized both to hold the phone and to attach to the surface where you mount the phone.  The magnets are covered in some kind of soft silicone or rubber and so won't damage the plate.  I would have taken a picture of the placement of my phone on the piano, but as you might imagine, I needed the phone to do that. If you'd like pictures, I can set something up and show you where I'm placing it.

Amazon.com: Gym Mate Magnetic iPhone Mount Holder. Attaches magnetically to Metal Surface. Shoot Hands-Free Videos While Working Out. Compatible with MagSafe on iPhones 12/13/14/15. Stable & Secure : Cell Phones & Accessories

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Adam, that looks pretty nice. About how often do you find yourself repositioning it?

Along David's lines, I tried an experiment, but with an external mic I'd forgotten I owned (Dayton Audio iMM-6 calibrated measurement mic) attached to a magnetic flexible gooseneck alligator clamp meant for soldering use, combined with a 3' audio extension cable, so I could move the mic where I wanted while keeping the phone at a convenient viewing location. (I use CyberTuner)

The clamp has a magnetic base and the gooseneck is very firm and holds it position well (after these pictures I added a piece of thin bushing cloth to the base of the clamp to avoid any potential for scratching/marring the plate). I wish the alligatorclamp itself was slightly larger so I could fit the barrel of the mic in the clamp, but it holds the cable firmly.

Setup and use was actually pretty easy. It's easy to position the mic where I want it, and it's easy to swivel the clamp on it's base to move the mic as you tune without having to reposition the clamp itself too often.

It is a little trickier to position in the top capo section to not get in the way of the lever, but it is possible.

Overall, the readouts were much steadier across the keyboard, and especially in the treble, but mic positioning is finickier in the treble to get those clean readouts, and chasing those cleaner readouts does add a little time. I haven't decided if the improvements in readout clarity are worth the tradeoffs yet. It does add a few extra pieces to the kit, and a little extra time in the treble. I don't think I'd want to add anything bulkier than this to my tuning kit, but could see how one could get used to moving a few extra pieces around as you tune, without it slowing you down too much. 

Yes that's true. But I thought your device was measuring the string?  If not what's the point of going to the trouble to place it where you do?  

The benefit, I found, was mostly in the high treble where readings are not stable, typically.  I set the mic pointing to the speaking length in close proximity to the soundboard and bridge. I'm sure the mic is picking up the pressure waves from the SB but with, perhaps less interference from other sources. 

With respect to Geoff's comment I think phase cancellation would not be a problem with mics in such close proximity similar to stereo mic techniques in recording. But yes, new phones have three mics and there doesn't appear to be a way to turn individual ones off. 

Anyway, it was more of an observation than a scientific research project. However the magnetic phone holder I found to be the perfect solution for what I was looking for.  I don't want this to turn into an infomercial for any particular product. The last thing I'm looking for is to carry around more "stuff" 

It takes the movement of air to produce sound. Putting a mic close to the string does nothing, since the string is moving very little air and producing very little sound itself. The string is the source of all vibrations and sound we hear, but itself is not producing the sound. There is nothing lost detecting the exact vibration of the source, but there is a lot to loose detecting the eigenmodes on the soundboard. The string has more than one mode, and these modes are often close in frequency and amplitude. A string usually produces the 'dominant' string mode over the lesser one, however, the soundboard will often resonate either mode more than the other depending on 'listening' position of the mic or the ear. This explains why we get mic position variances as much as 1-2 cents as has previously been shown with experimental data captures. Therefore, tweaking a mic position cannot be a solution that works across the whole range. 

Steve

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 03-29-2024 00:02
From: David Love
Subject: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

My recent search for an ETD holder, coupled with discussions on piano tuning, led me to consider the following. There has been much discussion about microphone placement using ETDs connected to cell phones or similar devices. Inspired by recent conversations about Pianosens, it occurred to me that it's not just microphone placement but also proximity to the string that matters. In my search for a cell phone holder to use at the piano, I found that magnetic holders typically used for gym workouts are well-suited for this purpose. (see link below--only $20)

The cast-iron plate of the piano responds to magnets (of course) and with iphones, at least, will hold onto the phone as well,  The cell phone holder, like the one pictured below, can be easily attached to various parts of the plate including the top of the struts. This allows for the cell phone to be oriented in such a way that the microphone points directly at the strings and can be set in close proximity. Keep in mind that the different cell phones have both different numbers of mics and different locations.  For example the iphone 14, which I use has 3 located front, back and on the bottom of the phone. The iphone 15 has two at the bottom plus one front and back.   

Using the magnet mount you can orient the mic very close to the string (I focused on the mic at the bottom of the phone). The piano struts allow this easily and the magnetic holder allows you to move the microphone incrementally during tuning. By orienting the microphone this way, especially in the extremes, I found the indicator much more stable, In the high treble I set the holder on the plate behind the bridge and pointed the bottom of the phone where the mic is located directly, and as close to the speaking length as possible (the magnet will easily attach to the hitch pins).  With this holder you can point the mic straight down onto the strings from the strut bringing it as close to the speaking length as you want.

While this solution may not be as advanced as the high technology Pianosens offers, I found it significantly improved the readings in the difficult, extremes of the piano, 

There are several magnetized holders available online at retailers like Amazon. These are magnetized both to hold the phone and to attach to the surface where you mount the phone.  The magnets are covered in some kind of soft silicone or rubber and so won't damage the plate.  I would have taken a picture of the placement of my phone on the piano, but as you might imagine, I needed the phone to do that. If you'd like pictures, I can set something up and show you where I'm placing it.

Amazon.com: Gym Mate Magnetic iPhone Mount Holder. Attaches magnetically to Metal Surface. Shoot Hands-Free Videos While Working Out. Compatible with MagSafe on iPhones 12/13/14/15. Stable & Secure : Cell Phones & Accessories

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

3 times before the top capo section (I tried this on a Steinway D). It's easy to swivel the entire base by nudging the mic over as I moved mutes. For the bass and lower tenor, I had it mounted on the large first strut. Moved it over to the diagonal brace for the upper tenor. Then moved it to behind the duplex in the 1st capo section and just swiveled it to reach all of those. For the upper capo section, I placed it on that cross brace you see in the last picture, and slid it over as I moved up the section.

Adam, that looks pretty nice. About how often do you find yourself repositioning it?

Along David's lines, I tried an experiment, but with an external mic I'd forgotten I owned (Dayton Audio iMM-6 calibrated measurement mic) attached to a magnetic flexible gooseneck alligator clamp meant for soldering use, combined with a 3' audio extension cable, so I could move the mic where I wanted while keeping the phone at a convenient viewing location. (I use CyberTuner)

The clamp has a magnetic base and the gooseneck is very firm and holds it position well (after these pictures I added a piece of thin bushing cloth to the base of the clamp to avoid any potential for scratching/marring the plate). I wish the alligatorclamp itself was slightly larger so I could fit the barrel of the mic in the clamp, but it holds the cable firmly.

Setup and use was actually pretty easy. It's easy to position the mic where I want it, and it's easy to swivel the clamp on it's base to move the mic as you tune without having to reposition the clamp itself too often.

It is a little trickier to position in the top capo section to not get in the way of the lever, but it is possible.

Overall, the readouts were much steadier across the keyboard, and especially in the treble, but mic positioning is finickier in the treble to get those clean readouts, and chasing those cleaner readouts does add a little time. I haven't decided if the improvements in readout clarity are worth the tradeoffs yet. It does add a few extra pieces to the kit, and a little extra time in the treble. I don't think I'd want to add anything bulkier than this to my tuning kit, but could see how one could get used to moving a few extra pieces around as you tune, without it slowing you down too much. 

Yes that's true. But I thought your device was measuring the string?  If not what's the point of going to the trouble to place it where you do?  

The benefit, I found, was mostly in the high treble where readings are not stable, typically.  I set the mic pointing to the speaking length in close proximity to the soundboard and bridge. I'm sure the mic is picking up the pressure waves from the SB but with, perhaps less interference from other sources. 

With respect to Geoff's comment I think phase cancellation would not be a problem with mics in such close proximity similar to stereo mic techniques in recording. But yes, new phones have three mics and there doesn't appear to be a way to turn individual ones off. 

Anyway, it was more of an observation than a scientific research project. However the magnetic phone holder I found to be the perfect solution for what I was looking for.  I don't want this to turn into an infomercial for any particular product. The last thing I'm looking for is to carry around more "stuff" 

It takes the movement of air to produce sound. Putting a mic close to the string does nothing, since the string is moving very little air and producing very little sound itself. The string is the source of all vibrations and sound we hear, but itself is not producing the sound. There is nothing lost detecting the exact vibration of the source, but there is a lot to loose detecting the eigenmodes on the soundboard. The string has more than one mode, and these modes are often close in frequency and amplitude. A string usually produces the 'dominant' string mode over the lesser one, however, the soundboard will often resonate either mode more than the other depending on 'listening' position of the mic or the ear. This explains why we get mic position variances as much as 1-2 cents as has previously been shown with experimental data captures. Therefore, tweaking a mic position cannot be a solution that works across the whole range. 

Steve

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 03-29-2024 00:02
From: David Love
Subject: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

My recent search for an ETD holder, coupled with discussions on piano tuning, led me to consider the following. There has been much discussion about microphone placement using ETDs connected to cell phones or similar devices. Inspired by recent conversations about Pianosens, it occurred to me that it's not just microphone placement but also proximity to the string that matters. In my search for a cell phone holder to use at the piano, I found that magnetic holders typically used for gym workouts are well-suited for this purpose. (see link below--only $20)

The cast-iron plate of the piano responds to magnets (of course) and with iphones, at least, will hold onto the phone as well,  The cell phone holder, like the one pictured below, can be easily attached to various parts of the plate including the top of the struts. This allows for the cell phone to be oriented in such a way that the microphone points directly at the strings and can be set in close proximity. Keep in mind that the different cell phones have both different numbers of mics and different locations.  For example the iphone 14, which I use has 3 located front, back and on the bottom of the phone. The iphone 15 has two at the bottom plus one front and back.   

Using the magnet mount you can orient the mic very close to the string (I focused on the mic at the bottom of the phone). The piano struts allow this easily and the magnetic holder allows you to move the microphone incrementally during tuning. By orienting the microphone this way, especially in the extremes, I found the indicator much more stable, In the high treble I set the holder on the plate behind the bridge and pointed the bottom of the phone where the mic is located directly, and as close to the speaking length as possible (the magnet will easily attach to the hitch pins).  With this holder you can point the mic straight down onto the strings from the strut bringing it as close to the speaking length as you want.

While this solution may not be as advanced as the high technology Pianosens offers, I found it significantly improved the readings in the difficult, extremes of the piano, 

There are several magnetized holders available online at retailers like Amazon. These are magnetized both to hold the phone and to attach to the surface where you mount the phone.  The magnets are covered in some kind of soft silicone or rubber and so won't damage the plate.  I would have taken a picture of the placement of my phone on the piano, but as you might imagine, I needed the phone to do that. If you'd like pictures, I can set something up and show you where I'm placing it.

Amazon.com: Gym Mate Magnetic iPhone Mount Holder. Attaches magnetically to Metal Surface. Shoot Hands-Free Videos While Working Out. Compatible with MagSafe on iPhones 12/13/14/15. Stable & Secure : Cell Phones & Accessories

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Do you reposition the mic for each note?

3 times before the top capo section (I tried this on a Steinway D). It's easy to swivel the entire base by nudging the mic over as I moved mutes. For the bass and lower tenor, I had it mounted on the large first strut. Moved it over to the diagonal brace for the upper tenor. Then moved it to behind the duplex in the 1st capo section and just swiveled it to reach all of those. For the upper capo section, I placed it on that cross brace you see in the last picture, and slid it over as I moved up the section.

Adam, that looks pretty nice. About how often do you find yourself repositioning it?

Along David's lines, I tried an experiment, but with an external mic I'd forgotten I owned (Dayton Audio iMM-6 calibrated measurement mic) attached to a magnetic flexible gooseneck alligator clamp meant for soldering use, combined with a 3' audio extension cable, so I could move the mic where I wanted while keeping the phone at a convenient viewing location. (I use CyberTuner)

The clamp has a magnetic base and the gooseneck is very firm and holds it position well (after these pictures I added a piece of thin bushing cloth to the base of the clamp to avoid any potential for scratching/marring the plate). I wish the alligatorclamp itself was slightly larger so I could fit the barrel of the mic in the clamp, but it holds the cable firmly.

Setup and use was actually pretty easy. It's easy to position the mic where I want it, and it's easy to swivel the clamp on it's base to move the mic as you tune without having to reposition the clamp itself too often.

It is a little trickier to position in the top capo section to not get in the way of the lever, but it is possible.

Overall, the readouts were much steadier across the keyboard, and especially in the treble, but mic positioning is finickier in the treble to get those clean readouts, and chasing those cleaner readouts does add a little time. I haven't decided if the improvements in readout clarity are worth the tradeoffs yet. It does add a few extra pieces to the kit, and a little extra time in the treble. I don't think I'd want to add anything bulkier than this to my tuning kit, but could see how one could get used to moving a few extra pieces around as you tune, without it slowing you down too much. 

Yes that's true. But I thought your device was measuring the string?  If not what's the point of going to the trouble to place it where you do?  

The benefit, I found, was mostly in the high treble where readings are not stable, typically.  I set the mic pointing to the speaking length in close proximity to the soundboard and bridge. I'm sure the mic is picking up the pressure waves from the SB but with, perhaps less interference from other sources. 

With respect to Geoff's comment I think phase cancellation would not be a problem with mics in such close proximity similar to stereo mic techniques in recording. But yes, new phones have three mics and there doesn't appear to be a way to turn individual ones off. 

Anyway, it was more of an observation than a scientific research project. However the magnetic phone holder I found to be the perfect solution for what I was looking for.  I don't want this to turn into an infomercial for any particular product. The last thing I'm looking for is to carry around more "stuff" 

It takes the movement of air to produce sound. Putting a mic close to the string does nothing, since the string is moving very little air and producing very little sound itself. The string is the source of all vibrations and sound we hear, but itself is not producing the sound. There is nothing lost detecting the exact vibration of the source, but there is a lot to loose detecting the eigenmodes on the soundboard. The string has more than one mode, and these modes are often close in frequency and amplitude. A string usually produces the 'dominant' string mode over the lesser one, however, the soundboard will often resonate either mode more than the other depending on 'listening' position of the mic or the ear. This explains why we get mic position variances as much as 1-2 cents as has previously been shown with experimental data captures. Therefore, tweaking a mic position cannot be a solution that works across the whole range. 

Steve

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 03-29-2024 00:02
From: David Love
Subject: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

My recent search for an ETD holder, coupled with discussions on piano tuning, led me to consider the following. There has been much discussion about microphone placement using ETDs connected to cell phones or similar devices. Inspired by recent conversations about Pianosens, it occurred to me that it's not just microphone placement but also proximity to the string that matters. In my search for a cell phone holder to use at the piano, I found that magnetic holders typically used for gym workouts are well-suited for this purpose. (see link below--only $20)

The cast-iron plate of the piano responds to magnets (of course) and with iphones, at least, will hold onto the phone as well,  The cell phone holder, like the one pictured below, can be easily attached to various parts of the plate including the top of the struts. This allows for the cell phone to be oriented in such a way that the microphone points directly at the strings and can be set in close proximity. Keep in mind that the different cell phones have both different numbers of mics and different locations.  For example the iphone 14, which I use has 3 located front, back and on the bottom of the phone. The iphone 15 has two at the bottom plus one front and back.   

Using the magnet mount you can orient the mic very close to the string (I focused on the mic at the bottom of the phone). The piano struts allow this easily and the magnetic holder allows you to move the microphone incrementally during tuning. By orienting the microphone this way, especially in the extremes, I found the indicator much more stable, In the high treble I set the holder on the plate behind the bridge and pointed the bottom of the phone where the mic is located directly, and as close to the speaking length as possible (the magnet will easily attach to the hitch pins).  With this holder you can point the mic straight down onto the strings from the strut bringing it as close to the speaking length as you want.

While this solution may not be as advanced as the high technology Pianosens offers, I found it significantly improved the readings in the difficult, extremes of the piano, 

There are several magnetized holders available online at retailers like Amazon. These are magnetized both to hold the phone and to attach to the surface where you mount the phone.  The magnets are covered in some kind of soft silicone or rubber and so won't damage the plate.  I would have taken a picture of the placement of my phone on the piano, but as you might imagine, I needed the phone to do that. If you'd like pictures, I can set something up and show you where I'm placing it.

Amazon.com: Gym Mate Magnetic iPhone Mount Holder. Attaches magnetically to Metal Surface. Shoot Hands-Free Videos While Working Out. Compatible with MagSafe on iPhones 12/13/14/15. Stable & Secure : Cell Phones & Accessories

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Along David's lines, I tried an experiment, but with an external mic I'd forgotten I owned (Dayton Audio iMM-6 calibrated measurement mic) attached to a magnetic flexible gooseneck alligator clamp meant for soldering use, combined with a 3' audio extension cable, so I could move the mic where I wanted while keeping the phone at a convenient viewing location. (I use CyberTuner)

The clamp has a magnetic base and the gooseneck is very firm and holds it position well (after these pictures I added a piece of thin bushing cloth to the base of the clamp to avoid any potential for scratching/marring the plate). I wish the alligatorclamp itself was slightly larger so I could fit the barrel of the mic in the clamp, but it holds the cable firmly.

Setup and use was actually pretty easy. It's easy to position the mic where I want it, and it's easy to swivel the clamp on it's base to move the mic as you tune without having to reposition the clamp itself too often.

It is a little trickier to position in the top capo section to not get in the way of the lever, but it is possible.

Overall, the readouts were much steadier across the keyboard, and especially in the treble, but mic positioning is finickier in the treble to get those clean readouts, and chasing those cleaner readouts does add a little time. I haven't decided if the improvements in readout clarity are worth the tradeoffs yet. It does add a few extra pieces to the kit, and a little extra time in the treble. I don't think I'd want to add anything bulkier than this to my tuning kit, but could see how one could get used to moving a few extra pieces around as you tune, without it slowing you down too much. 

------------------------------
Adam Schulte-Bukowinski, RPT
Piano Technician
Glenn Korff School of Music
University of Nebraska at Lincoln

Original Message:
Sent: 03-30-2024 22:04
From: David Love
Subject: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

Yes that's true. But I thought your device was measuring the string?  If not what's the point of going to the trouble to place it where you do?  

The benefit, I found, was mostly in the high treble where readings are not stable, typically.  I set the mic pointing to the speaking length in close proximity to the soundboard and bridge. I'm sure the mic is picking up the pressure waves from the SB but with, perhaps less interference from other sources. 

With respect to Geoff's comment I think phase cancellation would not be a problem with mics in such close proximity similar to stereo mic techniques in recording. But yes, new phones have three mics and there doesn't appear to be a way to turn individual ones off. 

Anyway, it was more of an observation than a scientific research project. However the magnetic phone holder I found to be the perfect solution for what I was looking for.  I don't want this to turn into an infomercial for any particular product. The last thing I'm looking for is to carry around more "stuff" 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 03-30-2024 16:47
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

It takes the movement of air to produce sound. Putting a mic close to the string does nothing, since the string is moving very little air and producing very little sound itself. The string is the source of all vibrations and sound we hear, but itself is not producing the sound. There is nothing lost detecting the exact vibration of the source, but there is a lot to loose detecting the eigenmodes on the soundboard. The string has more than one mode, and these modes are often close in frequency and amplitude. A string usually produces the 'dominant' string mode over the lesser one, however, the soundboard will often resonate either mode more than the other depending on 'listening' position of the mic or the ear. This explains why we get mic position variances as much as 1-2 cents as has previously been shown with experimental data captures. Therefore, tweaking a mic position cannot be a solution that works across the whole range. 

Steve

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 03-29-2024 00:02
From: David Love
Subject: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

My recent search for an ETD holder, coupled with discussions on piano tuning, led me to consider the following. There has been much discussion about microphone placement using ETDs connected to cell phones or similar devices. Inspired by recent conversations about Pianosens, it occurred to me that it's not just microphone placement but also proximity to the string that matters. In my search for a cell phone holder to use at the piano, I found that magnetic holders typically used for gym workouts are well-suited for this purpose. (see link below--only $20)

The cast-iron plate of the piano responds to magnets (of course) and with iphones, at least, will hold onto the phone as well,  The cell phone holder, like the one pictured below, can be easily attached to various parts of the plate including the top of the struts. This allows for the cell phone to be oriented in such a way that the microphone points directly at the strings and can be set in close proximity. Keep in mind that the different cell phones have both different numbers of mics and different locations.  For example the iphone 14, which I use has 3 located front, back and on the bottom of the phone. The iphone 15 has two at the bottom plus one front and back.   

Using the magnet mount you can orient the mic very close to the string (I focused on the mic at the bottom of the phone). The piano struts allow this easily and the magnetic holder allows you to move the microphone incrementally during tuning. By orienting the microphone this way, especially in the extremes, I found the indicator much more stable, In the high treble I set the holder on the plate behind the bridge and pointed the bottom of the phone where the mic is located directly, and as close to the speaking length as possible (the magnet will easily attach to the hitch pins).  With this holder you can point the mic straight down onto the strings from the strut bringing it as close to the speaking length as you want.

While this solution may not be as advanced as the high technology Pianosens offers, I found it significantly improved the readings in the difficult, extremes of the piano, 

There are several magnetized holders available online at retailers like Amazon. These are magnetized both to hold the phone and to attach to the surface where you mount the phone.  The magnets are covered in some kind of soft silicone or rubber and so won't damage the plate.  I would have taken a picture of the placement of my phone on the piano, but as you might imagine, I needed the phone to do that. If you'd like pictures, I can set something up and show you where I'm placing it.

Amazon.com: Gym Mate Magnetic iPhone Mount Holder. Attaches magnetically to Metal Surface. Shoot Hands-Free Videos While Working Out. Compatible with MagSafe on iPhones 12/13/14/15. Stable & Secure : Cell Phones & Accessories

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Attached below are photos of the magnetic cell phone holder and various placements.  The one sitting on top of the bridge in the upper section I found very useful for steadier readings in that section.  II don't reposition but when it seems necessary.  This is obviously not a replacement for Norsworthy's device, it just came of that discussion and while I was looking for a cell phone holder best suited for this purpose that I discovered that repositioning, in the treble especially, yielded some benefits.  I don't usually have any problems lower in the piano. Hopefully you get the idea with the photos below how the phone attached with the bottom of the phone pointing down.  Obviously hard to photograph a picture of my own phone, kind of like trying to look at your own face without a mirror.  A zen problem. 

BTW the magnet is plenty strong to hold the phone not only on these thin struts but on the from of an upright plate as well.  Whatever comes of these steady spinner claims, it's a nice way to hold the phone place, a simple (and inexpensive) solution, 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-02-2024 11:27
From: Adam Schulte-Bukowinski
Subject: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

Along David's lines, I tried an experiment, but with an external mic I'd forgotten I owned (Dayton Audio iMM-6 calibrated measurement mic) attached to a magnetic flexible gooseneck alligator clamp meant for soldering use, combined with a 3' audio extension cable, so I could move the mic where I wanted while keeping the phone at a convenient viewing location. (I use CyberTuner)

The clamp has a magnetic base and the gooseneck is very firm and holds it position well (after these pictures I added a piece of thin bushing cloth to the base of the clamp to avoid any potential for scratching/marring the plate). I wish the alligatorclamp itself was slightly larger so I could fit the barrel of the mic in the clamp, but it holds the cable firmly.

Setup and use was actually pretty easy. It's easy to position the mic where I want it, and it's easy to swivel the clamp on it's base to move the mic as you tune without having to reposition the clamp itself too often.

It is a little trickier to position in the top capo section to not get in the way of the lever, but it is possible.

Overall, the readouts were much steadier across the keyboard, and especially in the treble, but mic positioning is finickier in the treble to get those clean readouts, and chasing those cleaner readouts does add a little time. I haven't decided if the improvements in readout clarity are worth the tradeoffs yet. It does add a few extra pieces to the kit, and a little extra time in the treble. I don't think I'd want to add anything bulkier than this to my tuning kit, but could see how one could get used to moving a few extra pieces around as you tune, without it slowing you down too much. 

------------------------------
Adam Schulte-Bukowinski, RPT
Piano Technician
Glenn Korff School of Music
University of Nebraska at Lincoln

Original Message:
Sent: 03-30-2024 22:04
From: David Love
Subject: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

Yes that's true. But I thought your device was measuring the string?  If not what's the point of going to the trouble to place it where you do?  

The benefit, I found, was mostly in the high treble where readings are not stable, typically.  I set the mic pointing to the speaking length in close proximity to the soundboard and bridge. I'm sure the mic is picking up the pressure waves from the SB but with, perhaps less interference from other sources. 

With respect to Geoff's comment I think phase cancellation would not be a problem with mics in such close proximity similar to stereo mic techniques in recording. But yes, new phones have three mics and there doesn't appear to be a way to turn individual ones off. 

Anyway, it was more of an observation than a scientific research project. However the magnetic phone holder I found to be the perfect solution for what I was looking for.  I don't want this to turn into an infomercial for any particular product. The last thing I'm looking for is to carry around more "stuff" 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 03-30-2024 16:47
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

It takes the movement of air to produce sound. Putting a mic close to the string does nothing, since the string is moving very little air and producing very little sound itself. The string is the source of all vibrations and sound we hear, but itself is not producing the sound. There is nothing lost detecting the exact vibration of the source, but there is a lot to loose detecting the eigenmodes on the soundboard. The string has more than one mode, and these modes are often close in frequency and amplitude. A string usually produces the 'dominant' string mode over the lesser one, however, the soundboard will often resonate either mode more than the other depending on 'listening' position of the mic or the ear. This explains why we get mic position variances as much as 1-2 cents as has previously been shown with experimental data captures. Therefore, tweaking a mic position cannot be a solution that works across the whole range. 

Steve

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 03-29-2024 00:02
From: David Love
Subject: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

My recent search for an ETD holder, coupled with discussions on piano tuning, led me to consider the following. There has been much discussion about microphone placement using ETDs connected to cell phones or similar devices. Inspired by recent conversations about Pianosens, it occurred to me that it's not just microphone placement but also proximity to the string that matters. In my search for a cell phone holder to use at the piano, I found that magnetic holders typically used for gym workouts are well-suited for this purpose. (see link below--only $20)

The cast-iron plate of the piano responds to magnets (of course) and with iphones, at least, will hold onto the phone as well,  The cell phone holder, like the one pictured below, can be easily attached to various parts of the plate including the top of the struts. This allows for the cell phone to be oriented in such a way that the microphone points directly at the strings and can be set in close proximity. Keep in mind that the different cell phones have both different numbers of mics and different locations.  For example the iphone 14, which I use has 3 located front, back and on the bottom of the phone. The iphone 15 has two at the bottom plus one front and back.   

Using the magnet mount you can orient the mic very close to the string (I focused on the mic at the bottom of the phone). The piano struts allow this easily and the magnetic holder allows you to move the microphone incrementally during tuning. By orienting the microphone this way, especially in the extremes, I found the indicator much more stable, In the high treble I set the holder on the plate behind the bridge and pointed the bottom of the phone where the mic is located directly, and as close to the speaking length as possible (the magnet will easily attach to the hitch pins).  With this holder you can point the mic straight down onto the strings from the strut bringing it as close to the speaking length as you want.

While this solution may not be as advanced as the high technology Pianosens offers, I found it significantly improved the readings in the difficult, extremes of the piano, 

There are several magnetized holders available online at retailers like Amazon. These are magnetized both to hold the phone and to attach to the surface where you mount the phone.  The magnets are covered in some kind of soft silicone or rubber and so won't damage the plate.  I would have taken a picture of the placement of my phone on the piano, but as you might imagine, I needed the phone to do that. If you'd like pictures, I can set something up and show you where I'm placing it.

Amazon.com: Gym Mate Magnetic iPhone Mount Holder. Attaches magnetically to Metal Surface. Shoot Hands-Free Videos While Working Out. Compatible with MagSafe on iPhones 12/13/14/15. Stable & Secure : Cell Phones & Accessories

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Question: When the cell phone holder is sitting top of the bridge, how much sound input (or vibrational input) is coming from the direct connection to the bridge?
When I hold a vibrating tuning fork (perhaps comparable to a vibrating string) close to my phone, the tuning app does not really register it. When I touch the stem of the tuning fork to the (soft rubber) case of the phone, the tuner instantly registers the 440 Hz. (Comparable to the phone being mechanically connected to the bridge)

------------------------------
Jurgen Goering

Original Message:
Sent: 04-03-2024 01:38
From: David Love
Subject: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

Attached below are photos of the magnetic cell phone holder and various placements.  The one sitting on top of the bridge in the upper section I found very useful for steadier readings in that section.  II don't reposition but when it seems necessary.  This is obviously not a replacement for Norsworthy's device, it just came of that discussion and while I was looking for a cell phone holder best suited for this purpose that I discovered that repositioning, in the treble especially, yielded some benefits.  I don't usually have any problems lower in the piano. Hopefully you get the idea with the photos below how the phone attached with the bottom of the phone pointing down.  Obviously hard to photograph a picture of my own phone, kind of like trying to look at your own face without a mirror.  A zen problem. 

BTW the magnet is plenty strong to hold the phone not only on these thin struts but on the from of an upright plate as well.  Whatever comes of these steady spinner claims, it's a nice way to hold the phone place, a simple (and inexpensive) solution, 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-02-2024 11:27
From: Adam Schulte-Bukowinski
Subject: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

Along David's lines, I tried an experiment, but with an external mic I'd forgotten I owned (Dayton Audio iMM-6 calibrated measurement mic) attached to a magnetic flexible gooseneck alligator clamp meant for soldering use, combined with a 3' audio extension cable, so I could move the mic where I wanted while keeping the phone at a convenient viewing location. (I use CyberTuner)

The clamp has a magnetic base and the gooseneck is very firm and holds it position well (after these pictures I added a piece of thin bushing cloth to the base of the clamp to avoid any potential for scratching/marring the plate). I wish the alligatorclamp itself was slightly larger so I could fit the barrel of the mic in the clamp, but it holds the cable firmly.

Setup and use was actually pretty easy. It's easy to position the mic where I want it, and it's easy to swivel the clamp on it's base to move the mic as you tune without having to reposition the clamp itself too often.

It is a little trickier to position in the top capo section to not get in the way of the lever, but it is possible.

Overall, the readouts were much steadier across the keyboard, and especially in the treble, but mic positioning is finickier in the treble to get those clean readouts, and chasing those cleaner readouts does add a little time. I haven't decided if the improvements in readout clarity are worth the tradeoffs yet. It does add a few extra pieces to the kit, and a little extra time in the treble. I don't think I'd want to add anything bulkier than this to my tuning kit, but could see how one could get used to moving a few extra pieces around as you tune, without it slowing you down too much. 

------------------------------
Adam Schulte-Bukowinski, RPT
Piano Technician
Glenn Korff School of Music
University of Nebraska at Lincoln

Original Message:
Sent: 03-30-2024 22:04
From: David Love
Subject: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

Yes that's true. But I thought your device was measuring the string?  If not what's the point of going to the trouble to place it where you do?  

The benefit, I found, was mostly in the high treble where readings are not stable, typically.  I set the mic pointing to the speaking length in close proximity to the soundboard and bridge. I'm sure the mic is picking up the pressure waves from the SB but with, perhaps less interference from other sources. 

With respect to Geoff's comment I think phase cancellation would not be a problem with mics in such close proximity similar to stereo mic techniques in recording. But yes, new phones have three mics and there doesn't appear to be a way to turn individual ones off. 

Anyway, it was more of an observation than a scientific research project. However the magnetic phone holder I found to be the perfect solution for what I was looking for.  I don't want this to turn into an infomercial for any particular product. The last thing I'm looking for is to carry around more "stuff" 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 03-30-2024 16:47
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

It takes the movement of air to produce sound. Putting a mic close to the string does nothing, since the string is moving very little air and producing very little sound itself. The string is the source of all vibrations and sound we hear, but itself is not producing the sound. There is nothing lost detecting the exact vibration of the source, but there is a lot to loose detecting the eigenmodes on the soundboard. The string has more than one mode, and these modes are often close in frequency and amplitude. A string usually produces the 'dominant' string mode over the lesser one, however, the soundboard will often resonate either mode more than the other depending on 'listening' position of the mic or the ear. This explains why we get mic position variances as much as 1-2 cents as has previously been shown with experimental data captures. Therefore, tweaking a mic position cannot be a solution that works across the whole range. 

Steve

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101

Original Message:
Sent: 03-29-2024 00:02
From: David Love
Subject: ETDs holders and microphones present microphones placement

My recent search for an ETD holder, coupled with discussions on piano tuning, led me to consider the following. There has been much discussion about microphone placement using ETDs connected to cell phones or similar devices. Inspired by recent conversations about Pianosens, it occurred to me that it's not just microphone placement but also proximity to the string that matters. In my search for a cell phone holder to use at the piano, I found that magnetic holders typically used for gym workouts are well-suited for this purpose. (see link below--only $20)

The cast-iron plate of the piano responds to magnets (of course) and with iphones, at least, will hold onto the phone as well,  The cell phone holder, like the one pictured below, can be easily attached to various parts of the plate including the top of the struts. This allows for the cell phone to be oriented in such a way that the microphone points directly at the strings and can be set in close proximity. Keep in mind that the different cell phones have both different numbers of mics and different locations.  For example the iphone 14, which I use has 3 located front, back and on the bottom of the phone. The iphone 15 has two at the bottom plus one front and back.   

Using the magnet mount you can orient the mic very close to the string (I focused on the mic at the bottom of the phone). The piano struts allow this easily and the magnetic holder allows you to move the microphone incrementally during tuning. By orienting the microphone this way, especially in the extremes, I found the indicator much more stable, In the high treble I set the holder on the plate behind the bridge and pointed the bottom of the phone where the mic is located directly, and as close to the speaking length as possible (the magnet will easily attach to the hitch pins).  With this holder you can point the mic straight down onto the strings from the strut bringing it as close to the speaking length as you want.

While this solution may not be as advanced as the high technology Pianosens offers, I found it significantly improved the readings in the difficult, extremes of the piano, 

There are several magnetized holders available online at retailers like Amazon. These are magnetized both to hold the phone and to attach to the surface where you mount the phone.  The magnets are covered in some kind of soft silicone or rubber and so won't damage the plate.  I would have taken a picture of the placement of my phone on the piano, but as you might imagine, I needed the phone to do that. If you'd like pictures, I can set something up and show you where I'm placing it.

Amazon.com: Gym Mate Magnetic iPhone Mount Holder. Attaches magnetically to Metal Surface. Shoot Hands-Free Videos While Working Out. Compatible with MagSafe on iPhones 12/13/14/15. Stable & Secure : Cell Phones & Accessories

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------