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Help identifying this action and how to regulate.

  • 1.  Help identifying this action and how to regulate.

    Posted 09-13-2022 10:50
    Hello, this is my second ever piano to work on so I am still learning. First piano was a square grand. Can anyone help me identify this piano action on a 1929 Haines Bros. Baby grand. If you can help me with how to regulate this action that would be awesome as well but I am mainly just trying to identify so I can research and find literature on  how to regulate. Thank you.

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    Joshua Sharp
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  • 2.  RE: Help identifying this action and how to regulate.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-13-2022 11:13
    Joshua

    I doubt if there is any information out there on how to regulate this particular action. I would look carefully at what each part of the action does, and how turning  the buttons and screws effect the way the parts work. That's the best way to learn. Trial and error. 

    Wim





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  • 3.  RE: Help identifying this action and how to regulate.

    Posted 09-13-2022 11:24
    Thank you. I have been re-watching videos on howard piano industries and I am starting to get an idea of what is what. Just trying to visualize this action as if it did have a whippen. 

    But I am starting to see that the wire going to the hammer shank is the repetition spring and also acts as the drop portion/repetition lever of the hammer as well. The only main question im trying to figure out is the hammer butt on this action is similar to the square grand i did first. and the square action required some lost motion so the hammer rested on the rest rail. with this piano having also a direct blow does that same rule apply or because this has a repetition spring this would follow standard grand piano regulation where the hammer rests slightly above the hammer rest rail. 

    Thank you! to note I will be replacing as much felt as possible, esp the hammer rest felt as it is quite compressed.

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    Joshua Sharp
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    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: Help identifying this action and how to regulate.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-13-2022 12:04
    As I said, Joshua. trial and error.  
    The spring that adjusts the repetition also adjusts the drop. On a "modern" action, if there isn't enough strength in the spring to push the hammer up after a normal blow, it also will not have the strength to allow aftertouch, (drop). 

    Wim



    Original Message


  • 5.  RE: Help identifying this action and how to regulate.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-13-2022 13:00
    A Haines grand could scare you away from the trade! David Boyce (somewhere in Scotland, you can find him on Facebook) has a website where he has some resources regarding these pre modern action. There's also a short  book that PianoTek Supply sells that has information on similar sections. I think the action style is named Simplex.

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    Patrick Draine RPT
    Billerica MA
    (978) 663-9690
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    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: Help identifying this action and how to regulate.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-13-2022 13:12
    David Boyce's website is https://www.davidboyce.co.uk/piano-books.php
    On his website he has a list of piano technology books. It lists that short book, by Brian Capleton ("Piano Action Regulating") but now it doesn't seem to be on Pianotek Supply's website. You might call, they may have a spare copy.

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    Patrick Draine RPT
    Billerica MA
    (978) 663-9690
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    Original Message


  • 7.  RE: Help identifying this action and how to regulate.

    Posted 09-13-2022 13:36
    Thank you so much!! This was a great help. The first piano I ever worked on was an 1860s Square grand. If that didn't scare me away I don't think this haines will haha. I will reach out to see if I can find copies of that book.

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    Joshua Sharp
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    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: Help identifying this action and how to regulate.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-13-2022 14:18
    Joshua, a couple of things to watch out for.
    I can see that some of the repetition springs have been replaced with what looks like piano wire, they might give you a little extra trouble, also it indicates that more of the originals might break on you. Good opportunity to learn how to make springs. 
    Before you start replacing felts, figure out the best order in which to do so. Sometimes it's best to replace one set at a time to make sure you're still in the ball park rather than replacing everything at once. That way if there's a problem you can catch it before it compounds.

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    Steven Rosenthal RPT
    Honolulu HI
    (808) 521-7129
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    Original Message


  • 9.  RE: Help identifying this action and how to regulate.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-13-2022 14:30
    Good points made by Steven, I hadn't looked at the photos. You should plan on replacing all of the repetition springs because the old ones are incredibly brittle. Get the proper spring wire & make jigs to assist in duplicating the springs' proper shape.

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    Patrick Draine RPT
    Billerica MA
    (978) 663-9690
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    Original Message


  • 10.  RE: Help identifying this action and how to regulate.

    Posted 09-13-2022 15:38
    Thank you for the reply, I like the idea of one thing at a time. My order of operations will most likely be the hammer rail cloth, then back rail key cloth then punching then all the smaller stuff if needed as well as the damper felt. 

    I will be mindful of the springs and look into making some of my own. will be another good skill to learn.

    Thank you!

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    Joshua Sharp
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    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: Help identifying this action and how to regulate.

    Posted 09-13-2022 21:26
    See this video from the PTG Foundation: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzR9e-LR7zg>

    An example of this action is in the PTG Museum.

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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
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    Original Message


  • 12.  RE: Help identifying this action and how to regulate.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-13-2022 19:34

    Hi Joshua,

    Man, you get into some interesting pianos. Personally I think it's great you're giving them some love and attention. Just remember, modern pianos are a lot easier to work on, so don't get discouraged in the process. 

    Based on your video, it looks like the eyelet screw adjusts let-off (how close the hammers get to the strings before moving on their own momentum), just like most uprights. Start regulating there after you replace whatever felt / leather / parts you're going to replace. I'd set let-off about 1/8" away from the strings, as this is an older style action. 

    After you set let-off, key dip is next. After key dip, I'd do hammer blow distance next. Both of these should adjust as normal. (There's plenty of material on how to do these things readily available.) Obviously that's not a complete list, but should get you started. 



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    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
    Piano Technician / Artisan
    (256) 947-9999
    www.professional-piano-services.com
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    Original Message


  • 13.  RE: Help identifying this action and how to regulate.

    Posted 09-13-2022 23:38
    That is my luck, I'm going to find the hard ones first haha. Thanks for the tips. I look forward to start tearing into this soon.

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    Joshua Sharp
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    Original Message