Pianotech

I wondered, since Teflon is one of the primary repositories of PFAS ("forever chemicals").  Rather than doing a Google search, I used ChatGPT to survey lots of documents quickly.  Here's the result:

Does PTFE powder contain PFAS chemicals?

"Yes, PTFE (polytetrafluoroethylene) is a type of fluoropolymer and is considered a member of the larger family of PFAS (per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances) chemicals. While PTFE itself is stable and does not break down easily in the environment, some manufacturing processes or additives used in PTFE production might involve other PFAS compounds. It's important to distinguish between the properties of PTFE and the broader category of PFAS, as not all PFAS are the same and their environmental impacts can vary."

Do humans absorb PFAS chemicals through the skin after touching PFTE powder?

"The absorption of PFAS chemicals through the skin is generally considered to be low. PTFE powder itself is not likely to pose significant risks for skin absorption. However, while direct contact with PTFE powder may not lead to significant PFAS absorption, it's essential to be cautious, as some PFAS compounds can be present in other formulations or products. 

Long-term exposure or inhalation of fine particles could potentially pose health risks, so using appropriate safety measures, like gloves and masks, is advisable when handling any chemical powders."

More sources on PTFE powder specifically would be welcome.

I got into this search after looking into a report that PFAS chemicals are present in 33% of dental floss.  The sources for that are instructive on PFAS in general.  Naturally, the ADA and the manufacturers say there's no problem.  Here are those sources:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/dental-floss-harmful-chemicals/

https://www.health.com/condition/oral-health/pfas-floss

https://www.rdhmag.com/patient-care/article/14233922/pfas-in-dental-floss-bad-for-our-health

https://www.mamavation.com/beauty/toxic-pfas-dental-floss-tooth-floss.html

I've thought about which is more dangerous.  PTFE with PFAS or Talc with trace amounts of Asbestos?

I wondered, since Teflon is one of the primary repositories of PFAS ("forever chemicals").  Rather than doing a Google search, I used ChatGPT to survey lots of documents quickly.  Here's the result:

Does PTFE powder contain PFAS chemicals?

"Yes, PTFE (polytetrafluoroethylene) is a type of fluoropolymer and is considered a member of the larger family of PFAS (per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances) chemicals. While PTFE itself is stable and does not break down easily in the environment, some manufacturing processes or additives used in PTFE production might involve other PFAS compounds. It's important to distinguish between the properties of PTFE and the broader category of PFAS, as not all PFAS are the same and their environmental impacts can vary."

Do humans absorb PFAS chemicals through the skin after touching PFTE powder?

"The absorption of PFAS chemicals through the skin is generally considered to be low. PTFE powder itself is not likely to pose significant risks for skin absorption. However, while direct contact with PTFE powder may not lead to significant PFAS absorption, it's essential to be cautious, as some PFAS compounds can be present in other formulations or products. 

Long-term exposure or inhalation of fine particles could potentially pose health risks, so using appropriate safety measures, like gloves and masks, is advisable when handling any chemical powders."

More sources on PTFE powder specifically would be welcome.

I got into this search after looking into a report that PFAS chemicals are present in 33% of dental floss.  The sources for that are instructive on PFAS in general.  Naturally, the ADA and the manufacturers say there's no problem.  Here are those sources:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/dental-floss-harmful-chemicals/

https://www.health.com/condition/oral-health/pfas-floss

https://www.rdhmag.com/patient-care/article/14233922/pfas-in-dental-floss-bad-for-our-health

https://www.mamavation.com/beauty/toxic-pfas-dental-floss-tooth-floss.html

Italian talc has no measurable Asbestos

I've thought about which is more dangerous.  PTFE with PFAS or Talc with trace amounts of Asbestos?

I wondered, since Teflon is one of the primary repositories of PFAS ("forever chemicals").  Rather than doing a Google search, I used ChatGPT to survey lots of documents quickly.  Here's the result:

Does PTFE powder contain PFAS chemicals?

"Yes, PTFE (polytetrafluoroethylene) is a type of fluoropolymer and is considered a member of the larger family of PFAS (per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances) chemicals. While PTFE itself is stable and does not break down easily in the environment, some manufacturing processes or additives used in PTFE production might involve other PFAS compounds. It's important to distinguish between the properties of PTFE and the broader category of PFAS, as not all PFAS are the same and their environmental impacts can vary."

Do humans absorb PFAS chemicals through the skin after touching PFTE powder?

"The absorption of PFAS chemicals through the skin is generally considered to be low. PTFE powder itself is not likely to pose significant risks for skin absorption. However, while direct contact with PTFE powder may not lead to significant PFAS absorption, it's essential to be cautious, as some PFAS compounds can be present in other formulations or products. 

Long-term exposure or inhalation of fine particles could potentially pose health risks, so using appropriate safety measures, like gloves and masks, is advisable when handling any chemical powders."

More sources on PTFE powder specifically would be welcome.

I got into this search after looking into a report that PFAS chemicals are present in 33% of dental floss.  The sources for that are instructive on PFAS in general.  Naturally, the ADA and the manufacturers say there's no problem.  Here are those sources:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/dental-floss-harmful-chemicals/

https://www.health.com/condition/oral-health/pfas-floss

https://www.rdhmag.com/patient-care/article/14233922/pfas-in-dental-floss-bad-for-our-health

https://www.mamavation.com/beauty/toxic-pfas-dental-floss-tooth-floss.html

Original Message:
Sent: 11/1/2024 8:41:00 AM
From: Mark Adams
Subject: RE: How safe is PTFE powder?

Italian talc has no measurable Asbestos

------------------------------
Mark Adams RPT
Solana Beach CA
(858) 583-3333

Original Message:
Sent: 11-01-2024 08:18
From: David Stanwood
Subject: How safe is PTFE powder?

I've thought about which is more dangerous.  PTFE with PFAS or Talc with trace amounts of Asbestos?

------------------------------
David Stanwood
stanwoodpiano.com
stanwood@tiac.net
508-693-1583

Original Message:
Sent: 11-01-2024 07:35
From: Ron Newman
Subject: How safe is PTFE powder?

I wondered, since Teflon is one of the primary repositories of PFAS ("forever chemicals").  Rather than doing a Google search, I used ChatGPT to survey lots of documents quickly.  Here's the result:

Does PTFE powder contain PFAS chemicals?

"Yes, PTFE (polytetrafluoroethylene) is a type of fluoropolymer and is considered a member of the larger family of PFAS (per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances) chemicals. While PTFE itself is stable and does not break down easily in the environment, some manufacturing processes or additives used in PTFE production might involve other PFAS compounds. It's important to distinguish between the properties of PTFE and the broader category of PFAS, as not all PFAS are the same and their environmental impacts can vary."

Do humans absorb PFAS chemicals through the skin after touching PFTE powder?

"The absorption of PFAS chemicals through the skin is generally considered to be low. PTFE powder itself is not likely to pose significant risks for skin absorption. However, while direct contact with PTFE powder may not lead to significant PFAS absorption, it's essential to be cautious, as some PFAS compounds can be present in other formulations or products. 

Long-term exposure or inhalation of fine particles could potentially pose health risks, so using appropriate safety measures, like gloves and masks, is advisable when handling any chemical powders."

More sources on PTFE powder specifically would be welcome.

I got into this search after looking into a report that PFAS chemicals are present in 33% of dental floss.  The sources for that are instructive on PFAS in general.  Naturally, the ADA and the manufacturers say there's no problem.  Here are those sources:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/dental-floss-harmful-chemicals/

https://www.health.com/condition/oral-health/pfas-floss

https://www.rdhmag.com/patient-care/article/14233922/pfas-in-dental-floss-bad-for-our-health

https://www.mamavation.com/beauty/toxic-pfas-dental-floss-tooth-floss.html

------------------------------
Ron Newman
Santa Fe NM
(505) 204-8255
------------------------------

Please someone correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the real problem is in the PRODUCTION of these products where the PFAS "issue" is the greatest, rather than the actual use of said product(s)...(e.g., waste disposal)

In my locality it was the manufacturer of plastic bottles (in this particular case of waste disposal) that was held responsible for PFAS contamination of hundreds of wells), not the bottles themselves. (Just one example of probably thousands).

Nonetheless care should be taken when using any chemical...yes?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 11-01-2024 09:59
From: Allan Sutton
Subject: How safe is PTFE powder?

Original Message:
Sent: 11/1/2024 8:41:00 AM
From: Mark Adams
Subject: RE: How safe is PTFE powder?

Italian talc has no measurable Asbestos

------------------------------
Mark Adams RPT
Solana Beach CA
(858) 583-3333

Original Message:
Sent: 11-01-2024 08:18
From: David Stanwood
Subject: How safe is PTFE powder?

I've thought about which is more dangerous.  PTFE with PFAS or Talc with trace amounts of Asbestos?

------------------------------
David Stanwood
stanwoodpiano.com
stanwood@tiac.net
508-693-1583

Original Message:
Sent: 11-01-2024 07:35
From: Ron Newman
Subject: How safe is PTFE powder?

I wondered, since Teflon is one of the primary repositories of PFAS ("forever chemicals").  Rather than doing a Google search, I used ChatGPT to survey lots of documents quickly.  Here's the result:

Does PTFE powder contain PFAS chemicals?

"Yes, PTFE (polytetrafluoroethylene) is a type of fluoropolymer and is considered a member of the larger family of PFAS (per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances) chemicals. While PTFE itself is stable and does not break down easily in the environment, some manufacturing processes or additives used in PTFE production might involve other PFAS compounds. It's important to distinguish between the properties of PTFE and the broader category of PFAS, as not all PFAS are the same and their environmental impacts can vary."

Do humans absorb PFAS chemicals through the skin after touching PFTE powder?

"The absorption of PFAS chemicals through the skin is generally considered to be low. PTFE powder itself is not likely to pose significant risks for skin absorption. However, while direct contact with PTFE powder may not lead to significant PFAS absorption, it's essential to be cautious, as some PFAS compounds can be present in other formulations or products. 

Long-term exposure or inhalation of fine particles could potentially pose health risks, so using appropriate safety measures, like gloves and masks, is advisable when handling any chemical powders."

More sources on PTFE powder specifically would be welcome.

I got into this search after looking into a report that PFAS chemicals are present in 33% of dental floss.  The sources for that are instructive on PFAS in general.  Naturally, the ADA and the manufacturers say there's no problem.  Here are those sources:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/dental-floss-harmful-chemicals/

https://www.health.com/condition/oral-health/pfas-floss

https://www.rdhmag.com/patient-care/article/14233922/pfas-in-dental-floss-bad-for-our-health

https://www.mamavation.com/beauty/toxic-pfas-dental-floss-tooth-floss.html

------------------------------
Ron Newman
Santa Fe NM
(505) 204-8255
------------------------------

I've thought about which is more dangerous.  PTFE with PFAS or Talc with trace amounts of Asbestos?

I wondered, since Teflon is one of the primary repositories of PFAS ("forever chemicals").  Rather than doing a Google search, I used ChatGPT to survey lots of documents quickly.  Here's the result:

Does PTFE powder contain PFAS chemicals?

"Yes, PTFE (polytetrafluoroethylene) is a type of fluoropolymer and is considered a member of the larger family of PFAS (per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances) chemicals. While PTFE itself is stable and does not break down easily in the environment, some manufacturing processes or additives used in PTFE production might involve other PFAS compounds. It's important to distinguish between the properties of PTFE and the broader category of PFAS, as not all PFAS are the same and their environmental impacts can vary."

Do humans absorb PFAS chemicals through the skin after touching PFTE powder?

"The absorption of PFAS chemicals through the skin is generally considered to be low. PTFE powder itself is not likely to pose significant risks for skin absorption. However, while direct contact with PTFE powder may not lead to significant PFAS absorption, it's essential to be cautious, as some PFAS compounds can be present in other formulations or products. 

Long-term exposure or inhalation of fine particles could potentially pose health risks, so using appropriate safety measures, like gloves and masks, is advisable when handling any chemical powders."

More sources on PTFE powder specifically would be welcome.

I got into this search after looking into a report that PFAS chemicals are present in 33% of dental floss.  The sources for that are instructive on PFAS in general.  Naturally, the ADA and the manufacturers say there's no problem.  Here are those sources:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/dental-floss-harmful-chemicals/

https://www.health.com/condition/oral-health/pfas-floss

https://www.rdhmag.com/patient-care/article/14233922/pfas-in-dental-floss-bad-for-our-health

https://www.mamavation.com/beauty/toxic-pfas-dental-floss-tooth-floss.html

I wondered, since Teflon is one of the primary repositories of PFAS ("forever chemicals").  Rather than doing a Google search, I used ChatGPT to survey lots of documents quickly.  Here's the result:

Does PTFE powder contain PFAS chemicals?

"Yes, PTFE (polytetrafluoroethylene) is a type of fluoropolymer and is considered a member of the larger family of PFAS (per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances) chemicals. While PTFE itself is stable and does not break down easily in the environment, some manufacturing processes or additives used in PTFE production might involve other PFAS compounds. It's important to distinguish between the properties of PTFE and the broader category of PFAS, as not all PFAS are the same and their environmental impacts can vary."

Do humans absorb PFAS chemicals through the skin after touching PFTE powder?

"The absorption of PFAS chemicals through the skin is generally considered to be low. PTFE powder itself is not likely to pose significant risks for skin absorption. However, while direct contact with PTFE powder may not lead to significant PFAS absorption, it's essential to be cautious, as some PFAS compounds can be present in other formulations or products. 

Long-term exposure or inhalation of fine particles could potentially pose health risks, so using appropriate safety measures, like gloves and masks, is advisable when handling any chemical powders."

More sources on PTFE powder specifically would be welcome.

I got into this search after looking into a report that PFAS chemicals are present in 33% of dental floss.  The sources for that are instructive on PFAS in general.  Naturally, the ADA and the manufacturers say there's no problem.  Here are those sources:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/dental-floss-harmful-chemicals/

https://www.health.com/condition/oral-health/pfas-floss

https://www.rdhmag.com/patient-care/article/14233922/pfas-in-dental-floss-bad-for-our-health

https://www.mamavation.com/beauty/toxic-pfas-dental-floss-tooth-floss.html

I was just looking into this pretty in depth the other day with my partner (PhD in neuroscience and close to completing their MD). There are very few papers published on the health effects of inhaled PTFE powder and there are no literature review articles that we could find. Basically: inconclusive, there's just not enough data yet.

That being said, there is a LOT of research currently being done on the effects of microplastics in general and the gist is that it's not great. Jury is still out on exactly how bad, but any amount is worse than no amount.

Any SDS for PTFE powder usually says to use it only in a well ventilated area or with a mask.

I wondered, since Teflon is one of the primary repositories of PFAS ("forever chemicals").  Rather than doing a Google search, I used ChatGPT to survey lots of documents quickly.  Here's the result:

Does PTFE powder contain PFAS chemicals?

"Yes, PTFE (polytetrafluoroethylene) is a type of fluoropolymer and is considered a member of the larger family of PFAS (per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances) chemicals. While PTFE itself is stable and does not break down easily in the environment, some manufacturing processes or additives used in PTFE production might involve other PFAS compounds. It's important to distinguish between the properties of PTFE and the broader category of PFAS, as not all PFAS are the same and their environmental impacts can vary."

Do humans absorb PFAS chemicals through the skin after touching PFTE powder?

"The absorption of PFAS chemicals through the skin is generally considered to be low. PTFE powder itself is not likely to pose significant risks for skin absorption. However, while direct contact with PTFE powder may not lead to significant PFAS absorption, it's essential to be cautious, as some PFAS compounds can be present in other formulations or products. 

Long-term exposure or inhalation of fine particles could potentially pose health risks, so using appropriate safety measures, like gloves and masks, is advisable when handling any chemical powders."

More sources on PTFE powder specifically would be welcome.

I got into this search after looking into a report that PFAS chemicals are present in 33% of dental floss.  The sources for that are instructive on PFAS in general.  Naturally, the ADA and the manufacturers say there's no problem.  Here are those sources:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/dental-floss-harmful-chemicals/

https://www.health.com/condition/oral-health/pfas-floss

https://www.rdhmag.com/patient-care/article/14233922/pfas-in-dental-floss-bad-for-our-health

https://www.mamavation.com/beauty/toxic-pfas-dental-floss-tooth-floss.html

Ron, I have been following the topic of forever chemicals a little but I hadn't thought of the teflon powder that we use as being a contributor. PFAS's are a serious topic – thanks for the heads-up on teflon use. 

In September of last year, in my post "Piano Humidifying Systems – Is There A Health Consideration?", I raised a perhaps similar concern -- about the necessary use of a bacterial and mildew control chemical in the water of piano evaporative heating systems for humidity control. (They often contain American Chemical Society CAS #68424-85-1 and/or CAS 7732-18-5 and/or CAS 8030-78-2). As with your ChatGPT search, I also did a couple AI searches on the chemicals (and reading of SDS's) and the results were not very pleasant! So I was worried about the danger to us in servicing pianos as well as to our customers who have them in their home – of breathing minute quantities of the chemicals.

The VERY CLEAR consensus of our colleagues was that humidifier additive chemicals are not a problem, at least in part due to the minute quantities that we and our piano customer's families are breathing in. Comparisons provided included putting chemicals in a toilet bowl, and houses that are full of all sorts of chemicals, and odors from CA glues, and how California over-does warning labels, and lots more! The message is that we all have to put things in perspective.

So bottom line, Ron, is that might similar reasoning also apply to teflon and PFAS's? Still, if anyone has a link to a refereed scientific study showing that inhaling minute quantities of CAS 68424-85-1 is perfectly healthy, I would appreciate them providing it. I could then change one (#1) of the several considerations with piano humidifying systems that I have in my article on the topic on my Web site. Thanks in advance. Regards, Norman.

I was just looking into this pretty in depth the other day with my partner (PhD in neuroscience and close to completing their MD). There are very few papers published on the health effects of inhaled PTFE powder and there are no literature review articles that we could find. Basically: inconclusive, there's just not enough data yet.

That being said, there is a LOT of research currently being done on the effects of microplastics in general and the gist is that it's not great. Jury is still out on exactly how bad, but any amount is worse than no amount.

Any SDS for PTFE powder usually says to use it only in a well ventilated area or with a mask.

I wondered, since Teflon is one of the primary repositories of PFAS ("forever chemicals").  Rather than doing a Google search, I used ChatGPT to survey lots of documents quickly.  Here's the result:

Does PTFE powder contain PFAS chemicals?

"Yes, PTFE (polytetrafluoroethylene) is a type of fluoropolymer and is considered a member of the larger family of PFAS (per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances) chemicals. While PTFE itself is stable and does not break down easily in the environment, some manufacturing processes or additives used in PTFE production might involve other PFAS compounds. It's important to distinguish between the properties of PTFE and the broader category of PFAS, as not all PFAS are the same and their environmental impacts can vary."

Do humans absorb PFAS chemicals through the skin after touching PFTE powder?

"The absorption of PFAS chemicals through the skin is generally considered to be low. PTFE powder itself is not likely to pose significant risks for skin absorption. However, while direct contact with PTFE powder may not lead to significant PFAS absorption, it's essential to be cautious, as some PFAS compounds can be present in other formulations or products. 

Long-term exposure or inhalation of fine particles could potentially pose health risks, so using appropriate safety measures, like gloves and masks, is advisable when handling any chemical powders."

More sources on PTFE powder specifically would be welcome.

I got into this search after looking into a report that PFAS chemicals are present in 33% of dental floss.  The sources for that are instructive on PFAS in general.  Naturally, the ADA and the manufacturers say there's no problem.  Here are those sources:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/dental-floss-harmful-chemicals/

https://www.health.com/condition/oral-health/pfas-floss

https://www.rdhmag.com/patient-care/article/14233922/pfas-in-dental-floss-bad-for-our-health

https://www.mamavation.com/beauty/toxic-pfas-dental-floss-tooth-floss.html

Ron, I have been following the topic of forever chemicals a little but I hadn't thought of the teflon powder that we use as being a contributor. PFAS's are a serious topic – thanks for the heads-up on teflon use. 

In September of last year, in my post "Piano Humidifying Systems – Is There A Health Consideration?", I raised a perhaps similar concern -- about the necessary use of a bacterial and mildew control chemical in the water of piano evaporative heating systems for humidity control. (They often contain American Chemical Society CAS #68424-85-1 and/or CAS 7732-18-5 and/or CAS 8030-78-2). As with your ChatGPT search, I also did a couple AI searches on the chemicals (and reading of SDS's) and the results were not very pleasant! So I was worried about the danger to us in servicing pianos as well as to our customers who have them in their home – of breathing minute quantities of the chemicals.

The VERY CLEAR consensus of our colleagues was that humidifier additive chemicals are not a problem, at least in part due to the minute quantities that we and our piano customer's families are breathing in. Comparisons provided included putting chemicals in a toilet bowl, and houses that are full of all sorts of chemicals, and odors from CA glues, and how California over-does warning labels, and lots more! The message is that we all have to put things in perspective.

So bottom line, Ron, is that might similar reasoning also apply to teflon and PFAS's? Still, if anyone has a link to a refereed scientific study showing that inhaling minute quantities of CAS 68424-85-1 is perfectly healthy, I would appreciate them providing it. I could then change one (#1) of the several considerations with piano humidifying systems that I have in my article on the topic on my Web site. Thanks in advance. Regards, Norman.

I was just looking into this pretty in depth the other day with my partner (PhD in neuroscience and close to completing their MD). There are very few papers published on the health effects of inhaled PTFE powder and there are no literature review articles that we could find. Basically: inconclusive, there's just not enough data yet.

That being said, there is a LOT of research currently being done on the effects of microplastics in general and the gist is that it's not great. Jury is still out on exactly how bad, but any amount is worse than no amount.

Any SDS for PTFE powder usually says to use it only in a well ventilated area or with a mask.

I wondered, since Teflon is one of the primary repositories of PFAS ("forever chemicals").  Rather than doing a Google search, I used ChatGPT to survey lots of documents quickly.  Here's the result:

Does PTFE powder contain PFAS chemicals?

"Yes, PTFE (polytetrafluoroethylene) is a type of fluoropolymer and is considered a member of the larger family of PFAS (per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances) chemicals. While PTFE itself is stable and does not break down easily in the environment, some manufacturing processes or additives used in PTFE production might involve other PFAS compounds. It's important to distinguish between the properties of PTFE and the broader category of PFAS, as not all PFAS are the same and their environmental impacts can vary."

Do humans absorb PFAS chemicals through the skin after touching PFTE powder?

"The absorption of PFAS chemicals through the skin is generally considered to be low. PTFE powder itself is not likely to pose significant risks for skin absorption. However, while direct contact with PTFE powder may not lead to significant PFAS absorption, it's essential to be cautious, as some PFAS compounds can be present in other formulations or products. 

Long-term exposure or inhalation of fine particles could potentially pose health risks, so using appropriate safety measures, like gloves and masks, is advisable when handling any chemical powders."

More sources on PTFE powder specifically would be welcome.

I got into this search after looking into a report that PFAS chemicals are present in 33% of dental floss.  The sources for that are instructive on PFAS in general.  Naturally, the ADA and the manufacturers say there's no problem.  Here are those sources:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/dental-floss-harmful-chemicals/

https://www.health.com/condition/oral-health/pfas-floss

https://www.rdhmag.com/patient-care/article/14233922/pfas-in-dental-floss-bad-for-our-health

https://www.mamavation.com/beauty/toxic-pfas-dental-floss-tooth-floss.html

Ron, I have been following the topic of forever chemicals a little but I hadn't thought of the teflon powder that we use as being a contributor. PFAS's are a serious topic – thanks for the heads-up on teflon use. 

In September of last year, in my post "Piano Humidifying Systems – Is There A Health Consideration?", I raised a perhaps similar concern -- about the necessary use of a bacterial and mildew control chemical in the water of piano evaporative heating systems for humidity control. (They often contain American Chemical Society CAS #68424-85-1 and/or CAS 7732-18-5 and/or CAS 8030-78-2). As with your ChatGPT search, I also did a couple AI searches on the chemicals (and reading of SDS's) and the results were not very pleasant! So I was worried about the danger to us in servicing pianos as well as to our customers who have them in their home – of breathing minute quantities of the chemicals.

The VERY CLEAR consensus of our colleagues was that humidifier additive chemicals are not a problem, at least in part due to the minute quantities that we and our piano customer's families are breathing in. Comparisons provided included putting chemicals in a toilet bowl, and houses that are full of all sorts of chemicals, and odors from CA glues, and how California over-does warning labels, and lots more! The message is that we all have to put things in perspective.

So bottom line, Ron, is that might similar reasoning also apply to teflon and PFAS's? Still, if anyone has a link to a refereed scientific study showing that inhaling minute quantities of CAS 68424-85-1 is perfectly healthy, I would appreciate them providing it. I could then change one (#1) of the several considerations with piano humidifying systems that I have in my article on the topic on my Web site. Thanks in advance. Regards, Norman.

I was just looking into this pretty in depth the other day with my partner (PhD in neuroscience and close to completing their MD). There are very few papers published on the health effects of inhaled PTFE powder and there are no literature review articles that we could find. Basically: inconclusive, there's just not enough data yet.

That being said, there is a LOT of research currently being done on the effects of microplastics in general and the gist is that it's not great. Jury is still out on exactly how bad, but any amount is worse than no amount.

Any SDS for PTFE powder usually says to use it only in a well ventilated area or with a mask.

I wondered, since Teflon is one of the primary repositories of PFAS ("forever chemicals").  Rather than doing a Google search, I used ChatGPT to survey lots of documents quickly.  Here's the result:

Does PTFE powder contain PFAS chemicals?

"Yes, PTFE (polytetrafluoroethylene) is a type of fluoropolymer and is considered a member of the larger family of PFAS (per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances) chemicals. While PTFE itself is stable and does not break down easily in the environment, some manufacturing processes or additives used in PTFE production might involve other PFAS compounds. It's important to distinguish between the properties of PTFE and the broader category of PFAS, as not all PFAS are the same and their environmental impacts can vary."

Do humans absorb PFAS chemicals through the skin after touching PFTE powder?

"The absorption of PFAS chemicals through the skin is generally considered to be low. PTFE powder itself is not likely to pose significant risks for skin absorption. However, while direct contact with PTFE powder may not lead to significant PFAS absorption, it's essential to be cautious, as some PFAS compounds can be present in other formulations or products. 

Long-term exposure or inhalation of fine particles could potentially pose health risks, so using appropriate safety measures, like gloves and masks, is advisable when handling any chemical powders."

More sources on PTFE powder specifically would be welcome.

I got into this search after looking into a report that PFAS chemicals are present in 33% of dental floss.  The sources for that are instructive on PFAS in general.  Naturally, the ADA and the manufacturers say there's no problem.  Here are those sources:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/dental-floss-harmful-chemicals/

https://www.health.com/condition/oral-health/pfas-floss

https://www.rdhmag.com/patient-care/article/14233922/pfas-in-dental-floss-bad-for-our-health

https://www.mamavation.com/beauty/toxic-pfas-dental-floss-tooth-floss.html

I quit usng McLube, mainly because I accidentally spilled some and was shocked at what it did to the lacquer finish.  Had no idea.  Caused me a lot of trouble.  Anything that caustic I can do without.

Ron, I have been following the topic of forever chemicals a little but I hadn't thought of the teflon powder that we use as being a contributor. PFAS's are a serious topic – thanks for the heads-up on teflon use. 

In September of last year, in my post "Piano Humidifying Systems – Is There A Health Consideration?", I raised a perhaps similar concern -- about the necessary use of a bacterial and mildew control chemical in the water of piano evaporative heating systems for humidity control. (They often contain American Chemical Society CAS #68424-85-1 and/or CAS 7732-18-5 and/or CAS 8030-78-2). As with your ChatGPT search, I also did a couple AI searches on the chemicals (and reading of SDS's) and the results were not very pleasant! So I was worried about the danger to us in servicing pianos as well as to our customers who have them in their home – of breathing minute quantities of the chemicals.

The VERY CLEAR consensus of our colleagues was that humidifier additive chemicals are not a problem, at least in part due to the minute quantities that we and our piano customer's families are breathing in. Comparisons provided included putting chemicals in a toilet bowl, and houses that are full of all sorts of chemicals, and odors from CA glues, and how California over-does warning labels, and lots more! The message is that we all have to put things in perspective.

So bottom line, Ron, is that might similar reasoning also apply to teflon and PFAS's? Still, if anyone has a link to a refereed scientific study showing that inhaling minute quantities of CAS 68424-85-1 is perfectly healthy, I would appreciate them providing it. I could then change one (#1) of the several considerations with piano humidifying systems that I have in my article on the topic on my Web site. Thanks in advance. Regards, Norman.

I was just looking into this pretty in depth the other day with my partner (PhD in neuroscience and close to completing their MD). There are very few papers published on the health effects of inhaled PTFE powder and there are no literature review articles that we could find. Basically: inconclusive, there's just not enough data yet.

That being said, there is a LOT of research currently being done on the effects of microplastics in general and the gist is that it's not great. Jury is still out on exactly how bad, but any amount is worse than no amount.

Any SDS for PTFE powder usually says to use it only in a well ventilated area or with a mask.

I wondered, since Teflon is one of the primary repositories of PFAS ("forever chemicals").  Rather than doing a Google search, I used ChatGPT to survey lots of documents quickly.  Here's the result:

Does PTFE powder contain PFAS chemicals?

"Yes, PTFE (polytetrafluoroethylene) is a type of fluoropolymer and is considered a member of the larger family of PFAS (per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances) chemicals. While PTFE itself is stable and does not break down easily in the environment, some manufacturing processes or additives used in PTFE production might involve other PFAS compounds. It's important to distinguish between the properties of PTFE and the broader category of PFAS, as not all PFAS are the same and their environmental impacts can vary."

Do humans absorb PFAS chemicals through the skin after touching PFTE powder?

"The absorption of PFAS chemicals through the skin is generally considered to be low. PTFE powder itself is not likely to pose significant risks for skin absorption. However, while direct contact with PTFE powder may not lead to significant PFAS absorption, it's essential to be cautious, as some PFAS compounds can be present in other formulations or products. 

Long-term exposure or inhalation of fine particles could potentially pose health risks, so using appropriate safety measures, like gloves and masks, is advisable when handling any chemical powders."

More sources on PTFE powder specifically would be welcome.

I got into this search after looking into a report that PFAS chemicals are present in 33% of dental floss.  The sources for that are instructive on PFAS in general.  Naturally, the ADA and the manufacturers say there's no problem.  Here are those sources:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/dental-floss-harmful-chemicals/

https://www.health.com/condition/oral-health/pfas-floss

https://www.rdhmag.com/patient-care/article/14233922/pfas-in-dental-floss-bad-for-our-health

https://www.mamavation.com/beauty/toxic-pfas-dental-floss-tooth-floss.html

The main solvent in McLube 1725L (clear liquid) is heptane, but it also has a small amount of toluene in it. Toluene is one of the ingredients used in lacquer thinner.

I wear an N95 mask whenever I use liquid McLube for any more than a single swab and make sure it's somewhere that won't get spilled.

I'm not sure what all else the propellant mixture has or the contents of the discontinued McLube 444A. McLube has a new formulation, 444 TTG that is non-flammable and also has some water based formulations of both PTFE and MoS2 solutions that I'm eager to test!

I quit usng McLube, mainly because I accidentally spilled some and was shocked at what it did to the lacquer finish.  Had no idea.  Caused me a lot of trouble.  Anything that caustic I can do without.

Ron, I have been following the topic of forever chemicals a little but I hadn't thought of the teflon powder that we use as being a contributor. PFAS's are a serious topic – thanks for the heads-up on teflon use. 

In September of last year, in my post "Piano Humidifying Systems – Is There A Health Consideration?", I raised a perhaps similar concern -- about the necessary use of a bacterial and mildew control chemical in the water of piano evaporative heating systems for humidity control. (They often contain American Chemical Society CAS #68424-85-1 and/or CAS 7732-18-5 and/or CAS 8030-78-2). As with your ChatGPT search, I also did a couple AI searches on the chemicals (and reading of SDS's) and the results were not very pleasant! So I was worried about the danger to us in servicing pianos as well as to our customers who have them in their home – of breathing minute quantities of the chemicals.

The VERY CLEAR consensus of our colleagues was that humidifier additive chemicals are not a problem, at least in part due to the minute quantities that we and our piano customer's families are breathing in. Comparisons provided included putting chemicals in a toilet bowl, and houses that are full of all sorts of chemicals, and odors from CA glues, and how California over-does warning labels, and lots more! The message is that we all have to put things in perspective.

So bottom line, Ron, is that might similar reasoning also apply to teflon and PFAS's? Still, if anyone has a link to a refereed scientific study showing that inhaling minute quantities of CAS 68424-85-1 is perfectly healthy, I would appreciate them providing it. I could then change one (#1) of the several considerations with piano humidifying systems that I have in my article on the topic on my Web site. Thanks in advance. Regards, Norman.

I was just looking into this pretty in depth the other day with my partner (PhD in neuroscience and close to completing their MD). There are very few papers published on the health effects of inhaled PTFE powder and there are no literature review articles that we could find. Basically: inconclusive, there's just not enough data yet.

That being said, there is a LOT of research currently being done on the effects of microplastics in general and the gist is that it's not great. Jury is still out on exactly how bad, but any amount is worse than no amount.

Any SDS for PTFE powder usually says to use it only in a well ventilated area or with a mask.

I wondered, since Teflon is one of the primary repositories of PFAS ("forever chemicals").  Rather than doing a Google search, I used ChatGPT to survey lots of documents quickly.  Here's the result:

Does PTFE powder contain PFAS chemicals?

"Yes, PTFE (polytetrafluoroethylene) is a type of fluoropolymer and is considered a member of the larger family of PFAS (per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances) chemicals. While PTFE itself is stable and does not break down easily in the environment, some manufacturing processes or additives used in PTFE production might involve other PFAS compounds. It's important to distinguish between the properties of PTFE and the broader category of PFAS, as not all PFAS are the same and their environmental impacts can vary."

Do humans absorb PFAS chemicals through the skin after touching PFTE powder?

"The absorption of PFAS chemicals through the skin is generally considered to be low. PTFE powder itself is not likely to pose significant risks for skin absorption. However, while direct contact with PTFE powder may not lead to significant PFAS absorption, it's essential to be cautious, as some PFAS compounds can be present in other formulations or products. 

Long-term exposure or inhalation of fine particles could potentially pose health risks, so using appropriate safety measures, like gloves and masks, is advisable when handling any chemical powders."

More sources on PTFE powder specifically would be welcome.

I got into this search after looking into a report that PFAS chemicals are present in 33% of dental floss.  The sources for that are instructive on PFAS in general.  Naturally, the ADA and the manufacturers say there's no problem.  Here are those sources:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/dental-floss-harmful-chemicals/

https://www.health.com/condition/oral-health/pfas-floss

https://www.rdhmag.com/patient-care/article/14233922/pfas-in-dental-floss-bad-for-our-health

https://www.mamavation.com/beauty/toxic-pfas-dental-floss-tooth-floss.html

I would like to thank all of you for contributing to my research on next years PTG talk on chemical and biohazards in piano work!

Your ideas and comments are welcome.

The main solvent in McLube 1725L (clear liquid) is heptane, but it also has a small amount of toluene in it. Toluene is one of the ingredients used in lacquer thinner.

I wear an N95 mask whenever I use liquid McLube for any more than a single swab and make sure it's somewhere that won't get spilled.

I'm not sure what all else the propellant mixture has or the contents of the discontinued McLube 444A. McLube has a new formulation, 444 TTG that is non-flammable and also has some water based formulations of both PTFE and MoS2 solutions that I'm eager to test!

I quit usng McLube, mainly because I accidentally spilled some and was shocked at what it did to the lacquer finish.  Had no idea.  Caused me a lot of trouble.  Anything that caustic I can do without.

Ron, I have been following the topic of forever chemicals a little but I hadn't thought of the teflon powder that we use as being a contributor. PFAS's are a serious topic – thanks for the heads-up on teflon use. 

In September of last year, in my post "Piano Humidifying Systems – Is There A Health Consideration?", I raised a perhaps similar concern -- about the necessary use of a bacterial and mildew control chemical in the water of piano evaporative heating systems for humidity control. (They often contain American Chemical Society CAS #68424-85-1 and/or CAS 7732-18-5 and/or CAS 8030-78-2). As with your ChatGPT search, I also did a couple AI searches on the chemicals (and reading of SDS's) and the results were not very pleasant! So I was worried about the danger to us in servicing pianos as well as to our customers who have them in their home – of breathing minute quantities of the chemicals.

The VERY CLEAR consensus of our colleagues was that humidifier additive chemicals are not a problem, at least in part due to the minute quantities that we and our piano customer's families are breathing in. Comparisons provided included putting chemicals in a toilet bowl, and houses that are full of all sorts of chemicals, and odors from CA glues, and how California over-does warning labels, and lots more! The message is that we all have to put things in perspective.

So bottom line, Ron, is that might similar reasoning also apply to teflon and PFAS's? Still, if anyone has a link to a refereed scientific study showing that inhaling minute quantities of CAS 68424-85-1 is perfectly healthy, I would appreciate them providing it. I could then change one (#1) of the several considerations with piano humidifying systems that I have in my article on the topic on my Web site. Thanks in advance. Regards, Norman.

I was just looking into this pretty in depth the other day with my partner (PhD in neuroscience and close to completing their MD). There are very few papers published on the health effects of inhaled PTFE powder and there are no literature review articles that we could find. Basically: inconclusive, there's just not enough data yet.

That being said, there is a LOT of research currently being done on the effects of microplastics in general and the gist is that it's not great. Jury is still out on exactly how bad, but any amount is worse than no amount.

Any SDS for PTFE powder usually says to use it only in a well ventilated area or with a mask.

I wondered, since Teflon is one of the primary repositories of PFAS ("forever chemicals").  Rather than doing a Google search, I used ChatGPT to survey lots of documents quickly.  Here's the result:

Does PTFE powder contain PFAS chemicals?

"Yes, PTFE (polytetrafluoroethylene) is a type of fluoropolymer and is considered a member of the larger family of PFAS (per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances) chemicals. While PTFE itself is stable and does not break down easily in the environment, some manufacturing processes or additives used in PTFE production might involve other PFAS compounds. It's important to distinguish between the properties of PTFE and the broader category of PFAS, as not all PFAS are the same and their environmental impacts can vary."

Do humans absorb PFAS chemicals through the skin after touching PFTE powder?

"The absorption of PFAS chemicals through the skin is generally considered to be low. PTFE powder itself is not likely to pose significant risks for skin absorption. However, while direct contact with PTFE powder may not lead to significant PFAS absorption, it's essential to be cautious, as some PFAS compounds can be present in other formulations or products. 

Long-term exposure or inhalation of fine particles could potentially pose health risks, so using appropriate safety measures, like gloves and masks, is advisable when handling any chemical powders."

More sources on PTFE powder specifically would be welcome.

I got into this search after looking into a report that PFAS chemicals are present in 33% of dental floss.  The sources for that are instructive on PFAS in general.  Naturally, the ADA and the manufacturers say there's no problem.  Here are those sources:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/dental-floss-harmful-chemicals/

https://www.health.com/condition/oral-health/pfas-floss

https://www.rdhmag.com/patient-care/article/14233922/pfas-in-dental-floss-bad-for-our-health

https://www.mamavation.com/beauty/toxic-pfas-dental-floss-tooth-floss.html

The main solvent in McLube 1725L (clear liquid) is heptane, but it also has a small amount of toluene in it. Toluene is one of the ingredients used in lacquer thinner.

I wear an N95 mask whenever I use liquid McLube for any more than a single swab and make sure it's somewhere that won't get spilled.

I'm not sure what all else the propellant mixture has or the contents of the discontinued McLube 444A. McLube has a new formulation, 444 TTG that is non-flammable and also has some water based formulations of both PTFE and MoS2 solutions that I'm eager to test!

I quit usng McLube, mainly because I accidentally spilled some and was shocked at what it did to the lacquer finish.  Had no idea.  Caused me a lot of trouble.  Anything that caustic I can do without.

Ron, I have been following the topic of forever chemicals a little but I hadn't thought of the teflon powder that we use as being a contributor. PFAS's are a serious topic – thanks for the heads-up on teflon use. 

In September of last year, in my post "Piano Humidifying Systems – Is There A Health Consideration?", I raised a perhaps similar concern -- about the necessary use of a bacterial and mildew control chemical in the water of piano evaporative heating systems for humidity control. (They often contain American Chemical Society CAS #68424-85-1 and/or CAS 7732-18-5 and/or CAS 8030-78-2). As with your ChatGPT search, I also did a couple AI searches on the chemicals (and reading of SDS's) and the results were not very pleasant! So I was worried about the danger to us in servicing pianos as well as to our customers who have them in their home – of breathing minute quantities of the chemicals.

The VERY CLEAR consensus of our colleagues was that humidifier additive chemicals are not a problem, at least in part due to the minute quantities that we and our piano customer's families are breathing in. Comparisons provided included putting chemicals in a toilet bowl, and houses that are full of all sorts of chemicals, and odors from CA glues, and how California over-does warning labels, and lots more! The message is that we all have to put things in perspective.

So bottom line, Ron, is that might similar reasoning also apply to teflon and PFAS's? Still, if anyone has a link to a refereed scientific study showing that inhaling minute quantities of CAS 68424-85-1 is perfectly healthy, I would appreciate them providing it. I could then change one (#1) of the several considerations with piano humidifying systems that I have in my article on the topic on my Web site. Thanks in advance. Regards, Norman.

I was just looking into this pretty in depth the other day with my partner (PhD in neuroscience and close to completing their MD). There are very few papers published on the health effects of inhaled PTFE powder and there are no literature review articles that we could find. Basically: inconclusive, there's just not enough data yet.

That being said, there is a LOT of research currently being done on the effects of microplastics in general and the gist is that it's not great. Jury is still out on exactly how bad, but any amount is worse than no amount.

Any SDS for PTFE powder usually says to use it only in a well ventilated area or with a mask.

I wondered, since Teflon is one of the primary repositories of PFAS ("forever chemicals").  Rather than doing a Google search, I used ChatGPT to survey lots of documents quickly.  Here's the result:

Does PTFE powder contain PFAS chemicals?

"Yes, PTFE (polytetrafluoroethylene) is a type of fluoropolymer and is considered a member of the larger family of PFAS (per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances) chemicals. While PTFE itself is stable and does not break down easily in the environment, some manufacturing processes or additives used in PTFE production might involve other PFAS compounds. It's important to distinguish between the properties of PTFE and the broader category of PFAS, as not all PFAS are the same and their environmental impacts can vary."

Do humans absorb PFAS chemicals through the skin after touching PFTE powder?

"The absorption of PFAS chemicals through the skin is generally considered to be low. PTFE powder itself is not likely to pose significant risks for skin absorption. However, while direct contact with PTFE powder may not lead to significant PFAS absorption, it's essential to be cautious, as some PFAS compounds can be present in other formulations or products. 

Long-term exposure or inhalation of fine particles could potentially pose health risks, so using appropriate safety measures, like gloves and masks, is advisable when handling any chemical powders."

More sources on PTFE powder specifically would be welcome.

I got into this search after looking into a report that PFAS chemicals are present in 33% of dental floss.  The sources for that are instructive on PFAS in general.  Naturally, the ADA and the manufacturers say there's no problem.  Here are those sources:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/dental-floss-harmful-chemicals/

https://www.health.com/condition/oral-health/pfas-floss

https://www.rdhmag.com/patient-care/article/14233922/pfas-in-dental-floss-bad-for-our-health

https://www.mamavation.com/beauty/toxic-pfas-dental-floss-tooth-floss.html

The solvent in McLube 444 was n-propyl bromide. Regulations of which led to it being discontinued.

The main solvent in McLube 1725L (clear liquid) is heptane, but it also has a small amount of toluene in it. Toluene is one of the ingredients used in lacquer thinner.

I wear an N95 mask whenever I use liquid McLube for any more than a single swab and make sure it's somewhere that won't get spilled.

I'm not sure what all else the propellant mixture has or the contents of the discontinued McLube 444A. McLube has a new formulation, 444 TTG that is non-flammable and also has some water based formulations of both PTFE and MoS2 solutions that I'm eager to test!

I quit usng McLube, mainly because I accidentally spilled some and was shocked at what it did to the lacquer finish.  Had no idea.  Caused me a lot of trouble.  Anything that caustic I can do without.

Ron, I have been following the topic of forever chemicals a little but I hadn't thought of the teflon powder that we use as being a contributor. PFAS's are a serious topic – thanks for the heads-up on teflon use. 

In September of last year, in my post "Piano Humidifying Systems – Is There A Health Consideration?", I raised a perhaps similar concern -- about the necessary use of a bacterial and mildew control chemical in the water of piano evaporative heating systems for humidity control. (They often contain American Chemical Society CAS #68424-85-1 and/or CAS 7732-18-5 and/or CAS 8030-78-2). As with your ChatGPT search, I also did a couple AI searches on the chemicals (and reading of SDS's) and the results were not very pleasant! So I was worried about the danger to us in servicing pianos as well as to our customers who have them in their home – of breathing minute quantities of the chemicals.

The VERY CLEAR consensus of our colleagues was that humidifier additive chemicals are not a problem, at least in part due to the minute quantities that we and our piano customer's families are breathing in. Comparisons provided included putting chemicals in a toilet bowl, and houses that are full of all sorts of chemicals, and odors from CA glues, and how California over-does warning labels, and lots more! The message is that we all have to put things in perspective.

So bottom line, Ron, is that might similar reasoning also apply to teflon and PFAS's? Still, if anyone has a link to a refereed scientific study showing that inhaling minute quantities of CAS 68424-85-1 is perfectly healthy, I would appreciate them providing it. I could then change one (#1) of the several considerations with piano humidifying systems that I have in my article on the topic on my Web site. Thanks in advance. Regards, Norman.

I was just looking into this pretty in depth the other day with my partner (PhD in neuroscience and close to completing their MD). There are very few papers published on the health effects of inhaled PTFE powder and there are no literature review articles that we could find. Basically: inconclusive, there's just not enough data yet.

That being said, there is a LOT of research currently being done on the effects of microplastics in general and the gist is that it's not great. Jury is still out on exactly how bad, but any amount is worse than no amount.

Any SDS for PTFE powder usually says to use it only in a well ventilated area or with a mask.

I wondered, since Teflon is one of the primary repositories of PFAS ("forever chemicals").  Rather than doing a Google search, I used ChatGPT to survey lots of documents quickly.  Here's the result:

Does PTFE powder contain PFAS chemicals?

"Yes, PTFE (polytetrafluoroethylene) is a type of fluoropolymer and is considered a member of the larger family of PFAS (per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances) chemicals. While PTFE itself is stable and does not break down easily in the environment, some manufacturing processes or additives used in PTFE production might involve other PFAS compounds. It's important to distinguish between the properties of PTFE and the broader category of PFAS, as not all PFAS are the same and their environmental impacts can vary."

Do humans absorb PFAS chemicals through the skin after touching PFTE powder?

"The absorption of PFAS chemicals through the skin is generally considered to be low. PTFE powder itself is not likely to pose significant risks for skin absorption. However, while direct contact with PTFE powder may not lead to significant PFAS absorption, it's essential to be cautious, as some PFAS compounds can be present in other formulations or products. 

Long-term exposure or inhalation of fine particles could potentially pose health risks, so using appropriate safety measures, like gloves and masks, is advisable when handling any chemical powders."

More sources on PTFE powder specifically would be welcome.

I got into this search after looking into a report that PFAS chemicals are present in 33% of dental floss.  The sources for that are instructive on PFAS in general.  Naturally, the ADA and the manufacturers say there's no problem.  Here are those sources:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/dental-floss-harmful-chemicals/

https://www.health.com/condition/oral-health/pfas-floss

https://www.rdhmag.com/patient-care/article/14233922/pfas-in-dental-floss-bad-for-our-health

https://www.mamavation.com/beauty/toxic-pfas-dental-floss-tooth-floss.html

The solvent in McLube 444 was n-propyl bromide. Regulations of which led to it being discontinued.

The main solvent in McLube 1725L (clear liquid) is heptane, but it also has a small amount of toluene in it. Toluene is one of the ingredients used in lacquer thinner.

I wear an N95 mask whenever I use liquid McLube for any more than a single swab and make sure it's somewhere that won't get spilled.

I'm not sure what all else the propellant mixture has or the contents of the discontinued McLube 444A. McLube has a new formulation, 444 TTG that is non-flammable and also has some water based formulations of both PTFE and MoS2 solutions that I'm eager to test!

I quit usng McLube, mainly because I accidentally spilled some and was shocked at what it did to the lacquer finish.  Had no idea.  Caused me a lot of trouble.  Anything that caustic I can do without.

Ron, I have been following the topic of forever chemicals a little but I hadn't thought of the teflon powder that we use as being a contributor. PFAS's are a serious topic – thanks for the heads-up on teflon use. 

In September of last year, in my post "Piano Humidifying Systems – Is There A Health Consideration?", I raised a perhaps similar concern -- about the necessary use of a bacterial and mildew control chemical in the water of piano evaporative heating systems for humidity control. (They often contain American Chemical Society CAS #68424-85-1 and/or CAS 7732-18-5 and/or CAS 8030-78-2). As with your ChatGPT search, I also did a couple AI searches on the chemicals (and reading of SDS's) and the results were not very pleasant! So I was worried about the danger to us in servicing pianos as well as to our customers who have them in their home – of breathing minute quantities of the chemicals.

The VERY CLEAR consensus of our colleagues was that humidifier additive chemicals are not a problem, at least in part due to the minute quantities that we and our piano customer's families are breathing in. Comparisons provided included putting chemicals in a toilet bowl, and houses that are full of all sorts of chemicals, and odors from CA glues, and how California over-does warning labels, and lots more! The message is that we all have to put things in perspective.

So bottom line, Ron, is that might similar reasoning also apply to teflon and PFAS's? Still, if anyone has a link to a refereed scientific study showing that inhaling minute quantities of CAS 68424-85-1 is perfectly healthy, I would appreciate them providing it. I could then change one (#1) of the several considerations with piano humidifying systems that I have in my article on the topic on my Web site. Thanks in advance. Regards, Norman.

I was just looking into this pretty in depth the other day with my partner (PhD in neuroscience and close to completing their MD). There are very few papers published on the health effects of inhaled PTFE powder and there are no literature review articles that we could find. Basically: inconclusive, there's just not enough data yet.

That being said, there is a LOT of research currently being done on the effects of microplastics in general and the gist is that it's not great. Jury is still out on exactly how bad, but any amount is worse than no amount.

Any SDS for PTFE powder usually says to use it only in a well ventilated area or with a mask.

I wondered, since Teflon is one of the primary repositories of PFAS ("forever chemicals").  Rather than doing a Google search, I used ChatGPT to survey lots of documents quickly.  Here's the result:

Does PTFE powder contain PFAS chemicals?

"Yes, PTFE (polytetrafluoroethylene) is a type of fluoropolymer and is considered a member of the larger family of PFAS (per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances) chemicals. While PTFE itself is stable and does not break down easily in the environment, some manufacturing processes or additives used in PTFE production might involve other PFAS compounds. It's important to distinguish between the properties of PTFE and the broader category of PFAS, as not all PFAS are the same and their environmental impacts can vary."

Do humans absorb PFAS chemicals through the skin after touching PFTE powder?

"The absorption of PFAS chemicals through the skin is generally considered to be low. PTFE powder itself is not likely to pose significant risks for skin absorption. However, while direct contact with PTFE powder may not lead to significant PFAS absorption, it's essential to be cautious, as some PFAS compounds can be present in other formulations or products. 

Long-term exposure or inhalation of fine particles could potentially pose health risks, so using appropriate safety measures, like gloves and masks, is advisable when handling any chemical powders."

More sources on PTFE powder specifically would be welcome.

I got into this search after looking into a report that PFAS chemicals are present in 33% of dental floss.  The sources for that are instructive on PFAS in general.  Naturally, the ADA and the manufacturers say there's no problem.  Here are those sources:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/dental-floss-harmful-chemicals/

https://www.health.com/condition/oral-health/pfas-floss

https://www.rdhmag.com/patient-care/article/14233922/pfas-in-dental-floss-bad-for-our-health

https://www.mamavation.com/beauty/toxic-pfas-dental-floss-tooth-floss.html

The solvent in McLube 444 was n-propyl bromide. Regulations of which led to it being discontinued.

The main solvent in McLube 1725L (clear liquid) is heptane, but it also has a small amount of toluene in it. Toluene is one of the ingredients used in lacquer thinner.

I wear an N95 mask whenever I use liquid McLube for any more than a single swab and make sure it's somewhere that won't get spilled.

I'm not sure what all else the propellant mixture has or the contents of the discontinued McLube 444A. McLube has a new formulation, 444 TTG that is non-flammable and also has some water based formulations of both PTFE and MoS2 solutions that I'm eager to test!

I quit usng McLube, mainly because I accidentally spilled some and was shocked at what it did to the lacquer finish.  Had no idea.  Caused me a lot of trouble.  Anything that caustic I can do without.

Ron, I have been following the topic of forever chemicals a little but I hadn't thought of the teflon powder that we use as being a contributor. PFAS's are a serious topic – thanks for the heads-up on teflon use. 

In September of last year, in my post "Piano Humidifying Systems – Is There A Health Consideration?", I raised a perhaps similar concern -- about the necessary use of a bacterial and mildew control chemical in the water of piano evaporative heating systems for humidity control. (They often contain American Chemical Society CAS #68424-85-1 and/or CAS 7732-18-5 and/or CAS 8030-78-2). As with your ChatGPT search, I also did a couple AI searches on the chemicals (and reading of SDS's) and the results were not very pleasant! So I was worried about the danger to us in servicing pianos as well as to our customers who have them in their home – of breathing minute quantities of the chemicals.

The VERY CLEAR consensus of our colleagues was that humidifier additive chemicals are not a problem, at least in part due to the minute quantities that we and our piano customer's families are breathing in. Comparisons provided included putting chemicals in a toilet bowl, and houses that are full of all sorts of chemicals, and odors from CA glues, and how California over-does warning labels, and lots more! The message is that we all have to put things in perspective.

So bottom line, Ron, is that might similar reasoning also apply to teflon and PFAS's? Still, if anyone has a link to a refereed scientific study showing that inhaling minute quantities of CAS 68424-85-1 is perfectly healthy, I would appreciate them providing it. I could then change one (#1) of the several considerations with piano humidifying systems that I have in my article on the topic on my Web site. Thanks in advance. Regards, Norman.

I was just looking into this pretty in depth the other day with my partner (PhD in neuroscience and close to completing their MD). There are very few papers published on the health effects of inhaled PTFE powder and there are no literature review articles that we could find. Basically: inconclusive, there's just not enough data yet.

That being said, there is a LOT of research currently being done on the effects of microplastics in general and the gist is that it's not great. Jury is still out on exactly how bad, but any amount is worse than no amount.

Any SDS for PTFE powder usually says to use it only in a well ventilated area or with a mask.

I wondered, since Teflon is one of the primary repositories of PFAS ("forever chemicals").  Rather than doing a Google search, I used ChatGPT to survey lots of documents quickly.  Here's the result:

Does PTFE powder contain PFAS chemicals?

"Yes, PTFE (polytetrafluoroethylene) is a type of fluoropolymer and is considered a member of the larger family of PFAS (per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances) chemicals. While PTFE itself is stable and does not break down easily in the environment, some manufacturing processes or additives used in PTFE production might involve other PFAS compounds. It's important to distinguish between the properties of PTFE and the broader category of PFAS, as not all PFAS are the same and their environmental impacts can vary."

Do humans absorb PFAS chemicals through the skin after touching PFTE powder?

"The absorption of PFAS chemicals through the skin is generally considered to be low. PTFE powder itself is not likely to pose significant risks for skin absorption. However, while direct contact with PTFE powder may not lead to significant PFAS absorption, it's essential to be cautious, as some PFAS compounds can be present in other formulations or products. 

Long-term exposure or inhalation of fine particles could potentially pose health risks, so using appropriate safety measures, like gloves and masks, is advisable when handling any chemical powders."

More sources on PTFE powder specifically would be welcome.

I got into this search after looking into a report that PFAS chemicals are present in 33% of dental floss.  The sources for that are instructive on PFAS in general.  Naturally, the ADA and the manufacturers say there's no problem.  Here are those sources:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/dental-floss-harmful-chemicals/

https://www.health.com/condition/oral-health/pfas-floss

https://www.rdhmag.com/patient-care/article/14233922/pfas-in-dental-floss-bad-for-our-health

https://www.mamavation.com/beauty/toxic-pfas-dental-floss-tooth-floss.html

The solvent in McLube 444 was n-propyl bromide. Regulations of which led to it being discontinued.

The main solvent in McLube 1725L (clear liquid) is heptane, but it also has a small amount of toluene in it. Toluene is one of the ingredients used in lacquer thinner.

I wear an N95 mask whenever I use liquid McLube for any more than a single swab and make sure it's somewhere that won't get spilled.

I'm not sure what all else the propellant mixture has or the contents of the discontinued McLube 444A. McLube has a new formulation, 444 TTG that is non-flammable and also has some water based formulations of both PTFE and MoS2 solutions that I'm eager to test!

I quit usng McLube, mainly because I accidentally spilled some and was shocked at what it did to the lacquer finish.  Had no idea.  Caused me a lot of trouble.  Anything that caustic I can do without.

Ron, I have been following the topic of forever chemicals a little but I hadn't thought of the teflon powder that we use as being a contributor. PFAS's are a serious topic – thanks for the heads-up on teflon use. 

In September of last year, in my post "Piano Humidifying Systems – Is There A Health Consideration?", I raised a perhaps similar concern -- about the necessary use of a bacterial and mildew control chemical in the water of piano evaporative heating systems for humidity control. (They often contain American Chemical Society CAS #68424-85-1 and/or CAS 7732-18-5 and/or CAS 8030-78-2). As with your ChatGPT search, I also did a couple AI searches on the chemicals (and reading of SDS's) and the results were not very pleasant! So I was worried about the danger to us in servicing pianos as well as to our customers who have them in their home – of breathing minute quantities of the chemicals.

The VERY CLEAR consensus of our colleagues was that humidifier additive chemicals are not a problem, at least in part due to the minute quantities that we and our piano customer's families are breathing in. Comparisons provided included putting chemicals in a toilet bowl, and houses that are full of all sorts of chemicals, and odors from CA glues, and how California over-does warning labels, and lots more! The message is that we all have to put things in perspective.

So bottom line, Ron, is that might similar reasoning also apply to teflon and PFAS's? Still, if anyone has a link to a refereed scientific study showing that inhaling minute quantities of CAS 68424-85-1 is perfectly healthy, I would appreciate them providing it. I could then change one (#1) of the several considerations with piano humidifying systems that I have in my article on the topic on my Web site. Thanks in advance. Regards, Norman.

I was just looking into this pretty in depth the other day with my partner (PhD in neuroscience and close to completing their MD). There are very few papers published on the health effects of inhaled PTFE powder and there are no literature review articles that we could find. Basically: inconclusive, there's just not enough data yet.

That being said, there is a LOT of research currently being done on the effects of microplastics in general and the gist is that it's not great. Jury is still out on exactly how bad, but any amount is worse than no amount.

Any SDS for PTFE powder usually says to use it only in a well ventilated area or with a mask.

I wondered, since Teflon is one of the primary repositories of PFAS ("forever chemicals").  Rather than doing a Google search, I used ChatGPT to survey lots of documents quickly.  Here's the result:

Does PTFE powder contain PFAS chemicals?

"Yes, PTFE (polytetrafluoroethylene) is a type of fluoropolymer and is considered a member of the larger family of PFAS (per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances) chemicals. While PTFE itself is stable and does not break down easily in the environment, some manufacturing processes or additives used in PTFE production might involve other PFAS compounds. It's important to distinguish between the properties of PTFE and the broader category of PFAS, as not all PFAS are the same and their environmental impacts can vary."

Do humans absorb PFAS chemicals through the skin after touching PFTE powder?

"The absorption of PFAS chemicals through the skin is generally considered to be low. PTFE powder itself is not likely to pose significant risks for skin absorption. However, while direct contact with PTFE powder may not lead to significant PFAS absorption, it's essential to be cautious, as some PFAS compounds can be present in other formulations or products. 

Long-term exposure or inhalation of fine particles could potentially pose health risks, so using appropriate safety measures, like gloves and masks, is advisable when handling any chemical powders."

More sources on PTFE powder specifically would be welcome.

I got into this search after looking into a report that PFAS chemicals are present in 33% of dental floss.  The sources for that are instructive on PFAS in general.  Naturally, the ADA and the manufacturers say there's no problem.  Here are those sources:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/dental-floss-harmful-chemicals/

https://www.health.com/condition/oral-health/pfas-floss

https://www.rdhmag.com/patient-care/article/14233922/pfas-in-dental-floss-bad-for-our-health

https://www.mamavation.com/beauty/toxic-pfas-dental-floss-tooth-floss.html

One of my hopes for the water-based McLube is that it could be used directly on felt/leather without issue, but I haven't purchased any to test. I've been distributing liquid McLube locally and I'm planning on getting a sample of the water-based product with my next order.

With the solvent-based dry film lubricants, you do NOT want to apply it directly to felt or leather as it will create a hard spot that will *click*. In the case of jack/knuckle interface, you would apply it to the tip of the jack. This might end up being the case for their water-based products as well.

# PTFE

The powder I have laying around is ultrafine grade. Not sure if it's from Schaff or somewhere else. Quick lookup showed 1-1.5 microns.

# PVC-E

I haven't asked for an SDS from Schaff to verify (would they provide one?). Based on how it dries, it's color, and smell, isn't it just some kind of PVA glue? It's nearly identical to the high-tack PVA glues used in bookbinding.

The solvent in McLube 444 was n-propyl bromide. Regulations of which led to it being discontinued.

The main solvent in McLube 1725L (clear liquid) is heptane, but it also has a small amount of toluene in it. Toluene is one of the ingredients used in lacquer thinner.

I wear an N95 mask whenever I use liquid McLube for any more than a single swab and make sure it's somewhere that won't get spilled.

I'm not sure what all else the propellant mixture has or the contents of the discontinued McLube 444A. McLube has a new formulation, 444 TTG that is non-flammable and also has some water based formulations of both PTFE and MoS2 solutions that I'm eager to test!

I quit usng McLube, mainly because I accidentally spilled some and was shocked at what it did to the lacquer finish.  Had no idea.  Caused me a lot of trouble.  Anything that caustic I can do without.

Ron, I have been following the topic of forever chemicals a little but I hadn't thought of the teflon powder that we use as being a contributor. PFAS's are a serious topic – thanks for the heads-up on teflon use. 

In September of last year, in my post "Piano Humidifying Systems – Is There A Health Consideration?", I raised a perhaps similar concern -- about the necessary use of a bacterial and mildew control chemical in the water of piano evaporative heating systems for humidity control. (They often contain American Chemical Society CAS #68424-85-1 and/or CAS 7732-18-5 and/or CAS 8030-78-2). As with your ChatGPT search, I also did a couple AI searches on the chemicals (and reading of SDS's) and the results were not very pleasant! So I was worried about the danger to us in servicing pianos as well as to our customers who have them in their home – of breathing minute quantities of the chemicals.

The VERY CLEAR consensus of our colleagues was that humidifier additive chemicals are not a problem, at least in part due to the minute quantities that we and our piano customer's families are breathing in. Comparisons provided included putting chemicals in a toilet bowl, and houses that are full of all sorts of chemicals, and odors from CA glues, and how California over-does warning labels, and lots more! The message is that we all have to put things in perspective.

So bottom line, Ron, is that might similar reasoning also apply to teflon and PFAS's? Still, if anyone has a link to a refereed scientific study showing that inhaling minute quantities of CAS 68424-85-1 is perfectly healthy, I would appreciate them providing it. I could then change one (#1) of the several considerations with piano humidifying systems that I have in my article on the topic on my Web site. Thanks in advance. Regards, Norman.

I was just looking into this pretty in depth the other day with my partner (PhD in neuroscience and close to completing their MD). There are very few papers published on the health effects of inhaled PTFE powder and there are no literature review articles that we could find. Basically: inconclusive, there's just not enough data yet.

That being said, there is a LOT of research currently being done on the effects of microplastics in general and the gist is that it's not great. Jury is still out on exactly how bad, but any amount is worse than no amount.

Any SDS for PTFE powder usually says to use it only in a well ventilated area or with a mask.

I wondered, since Teflon is one of the primary repositories of PFAS ("forever chemicals").  Rather than doing a Google search, I used ChatGPT to survey lots of documents quickly.  Here's the result:

Does PTFE powder contain PFAS chemicals?

"Yes, PTFE (polytetrafluoroethylene) is a type of fluoropolymer and is considered a member of the larger family of PFAS (per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances) chemicals. While PTFE itself is stable and does not break down easily in the environment, some manufacturing processes or additives used in PTFE production might involve other PFAS compounds. It's important to distinguish between the properties of PTFE and the broader category of PFAS, as not all PFAS are the same and their environmental impacts can vary."

Do humans absorb PFAS chemicals through the skin after touching PFTE powder?

"The absorption of PFAS chemicals through the skin is generally considered to be low. PTFE powder itself is not likely to pose significant risks for skin absorption. However, while direct contact with PTFE powder may not lead to significant PFAS absorption, it's essential to be cautious, as some PFAS compounds can be present in other formulations or products. 

Long-term exposure or inhalation of fine particles could potentially pose health risks, so using appropriate safety measures, like gloves and masks, is advisable when handling any chemical powders."

More sources on PTFE powder specifically would be welcome.

I got into this search after looking into a report that PFAS chemicals are present in 33% of dental floss.  The sources for that are instructive on PFAS in general.  Naturally, the ADA and the manufacturers say there's no problem.  Here are those sources:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/dental-floss-harmful-chemicals/

https://www.health.com/condition/oral-health/pfas-floss

https://www.rdhmag.com/patient-care/article/14233922/pfas-in-dental-floss-bad-for-our-health

https://www.mamavation.com/beauty/toxic-pfas-dental-floss-tooth-floss.html

With the small amount of research I have done into PVC-E glue I am surprised at how little information there is available on what it is or where to actually get it.  Amazon has Titebond Melamine glue availble and claims it is a PVA glue, but it is obviously not the same as the PVA in Elmers Glue.  The piano supply houses apparently can get 55 gallon drums of it for repackaging but finding the chemistry or other details has been difficult, at least for me.

One of my hopes for the water-based McLube is that it could be used directly on felt/leather without issue, but I haven't purchased any to test. I've been distributing liquid McLube locally and I'm planning on getting a sample of the water-based product with my next order.

With the solvent-based dry film lubricants, you do NOT want to apply it directly to felt or leather as it will create a hard spot that will *click*. In the case of jack/knuckle interface, you would apply it to the tip of the jack. This might end up being the case for their water-based products as well.

# PTFE

The powder I have laying around is ultrafine grade. Not sure if it's from Schaff or somewhere else. Quick lookup showed 1-1.5 microns.

# PVC-E

I haven't asked for an SDS from Schaff to verify (would they provide one?). Based on how it dries, it's color, and smell, isn't it just some kind of PVA glue? It's nearly identical to the high-tack PVA glues used in bookbinding.

The solvent in McLube 444 was n-propyl bromide. Regulations of which led to it being discontinued.

The main solvent in McLube 1725L (clear liquid) is heptane, but it also has a small amount of toluene in it. Toluene is one of the ingredients used in lacquer thinner.

I wear an N95 mask whenever I use liquid McLube for any more than a single swab and make sure it's somewhere that won't get spilled.

I'm not sure what all else the propellant mixture has or the contents of the discontinued McLube 444A. McLube has a new formulation, 444 TTG that is non-flammable and also has some water based formulations of both PTFE and MoS2 solutions that I'm eager to test!

I quit usng McLube, mainly because I accidentally spilled some and was shocked at what it did to the lacquer finish.  Had no idea.  Caused me a lot of trouble.  Anything that caustic I can do without.

Ron, I have been following the topic of forever chemicals a little but I hadn't thought of the teflon powder that we use as being a contributor. PFAS's are a serious topic – thanks for the heads-up on teflon use. 

In September of last year, in my post "Piano Humidifying Systems – Is There A Health Consideration?", I raised a perhaps similar concern -- about the necessary use of a bacterial and mildew control chemical in the water of piano evaporative heating systems for humidity control. (They often contain American Chemical Society CAS #68424-85-1 and/or CAS 7732-18-5 and/or CAS 8030-78-2). As with your ChatGPT search, I also did a couple AI searches on the chemicals (and reading of SDS's) and the results were not very pleasant! So I was worried about the danger to us in servicing pianos as well as to our customers who have them in their home – of breathing minute quantities of the chemicals.

The VERY CLEAR consensus of our colleagues was that humidifier additive chemicals are not a problem, at least in part due to the minute quantities that we and our piano customer's families are breathing in. Comparisons provided included putting chemicals in a toilet bowl, and houses that are full of all sorts of chemicals, and odors from CA glues, and how California over-does warning labels, and lots more! The message is that we all have to put things in perspective.

So bottom line, Ron, is that might similar reasoning also apply to teflon and PFAS's? Still, if anyone has a link to a refereed scientific study showing that inhaling minute quantities of CAS 68424-85-1 is perfectly healthy, I would appreciate them providing it. I could then change one (#1) of the several considerations with piano humidifying systems that I have in my article on the topic on my Web site. Thanks in advance. Regards, Norman.

I was just looking into this pretty in depth the other day with my partner (PhD in neuroscience and close to completing their MD). There are very few papers published on the health effects of inhaled PTFE powder and there are no literature review articles that we could find. Basically: inconclusive, there's just not enough data yet.

That being said, there is a LOT of research currently being done on the effects of microplastics in general and the gist is that it's not great. Jury is still out on exactly how bad, but any amount is worse than no amount.

Any SDS for PTFE powder usually says to use it only in a well ventilated area or with a mask.

I wondered, since Teflon is one of the primary repositories of PFAS ("forever chemicals").  Rather than doing a Google search, I used ChatGPT to survey lots of documents quickly.  Here's the result:

Does PTFE powder contain PFAS chemicals?

"Yes, PTFE (polytetrafluoroethylene) is a type of fluoropolymer and is considered a member of the larger family of PFAS (per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances) chemicals. While PTFE itself is stable and does not break down easily in the environment, some manufacturing processes or additives used in PTFE production might involve other PFAS compounds. It's important to distinguish between the properties of PTFE and the broader category of PFAS, as not all PFAS are the same and their environmental impacts can vary."

Do humans absorb PFAS chemicals through the skin after touching PFTE powder?

"The absorption of PFAS chemicals through the skin is generally considered to be low. PTFE powder itself is not likely to pose significant risks for skin absorption. However, while direct contact with PTFE powder may not lead to significant PFAS absorption, it's essential to be cautious, as some PFAS compounds can be present in other formulations or products. 

Long-term exposure or inhalation of fine particles could potentially pose health risks, so using appropriate safety measures, like gloves and masks, is advisable when handling any chemical powders."

More sources on PTFE powder specifically would be welcome.

I got into this search after looking into a report that PFAS chemicals are present in 33% of dental floss.  The sources for that are instructive on PFAS in general.  Naturally, the ADA and the manufacturers say there's no problem.  Here are those sources:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/dental-floss-harmful-chemicals/

https://www.health.com/condition/oral-health/pfas-floss

https://www.rdhmag.com/patient-care/article/14233922/pfas-in-dental-floss-bad-for-our-health

https://www.mamavation.com/beauty/toxic-pfas-dental-floss-tooth-floss.html

The solvent in McLube 444 was n-propyl bromide. Regulations of which led to it being discontinued.

The main solvent in McLube 1725L (clear liquid) is heptane, but it also has a small amount of toluene in it. Toluene is one of the ingredients used in lacquer thinner.

I wear an N95 mask whenever I use liquid McLube for any more than a single swab and make sure it's somewhere that won't get spilled.

I'm not sure what all else the propellant mixture has or the contents of the discontinued McLube 444A. McLube has a new formulation, 444 TTG that is non-flammable and also has some water based formulations of both PTFE and MoS2 solutions that I'm eager to test!

I quit usng McLube, mainly because I accidentally spilled some and was shocked at what it did to the lacquer finish.  Had no idea.  Caused me a lot of trouble.  Anything that caustic I can do without.

Ron, I have been following the topic of forever chemicals a little but I hadn't thought of the teflon powder that we use as being a contributor. PFAS's are a serious topic – thanks for the heads-up on teflon use. 

In September of last year, in my post "Piano Humidifying Systems – Is There A Health Consideration?", I raised a perhaps similar concern -- about the necessary use of a bacterial and mildew control chemical in the water of piano evaporative heating systems for humidity control. (They often contain American Chemical Society CAS #68424-85-1 and/or CAS 7732-18-5 and/or CAS 8030-78-2). As with your ChatGPT search, I also did a couple AI searches on the chemicals (and reading of SDS's) and the results were not very pleasant! So I was worried about the danger to us in servicing pianos as well as to our customers who have them in their home – of breathing minute quantities of the chemicals.

The VERY CLEAR consensus of our colleagues was that humidifier additive chemicals are not a problem, at least in part due to the minute quantities that we and our piano customer's families are breathing in. Comparisons provided included putting chemicals in a toilet bowl, and houses that are full of all sorts of chemicals, and odors from CA glues, and how California over-does warning labels, and lots more! The message is that we all have to put things in perspective.

So bottom line, Ron, is that might similar reasoning also apply to teflon and PFAS's? Still, if anyone has a link to a refereed scientific study showing that inhaling minute quantities of CAS 68424-85-1 is perfectly healthy, I would appreciate them providing it. I could then change one (#1) of the several considerations with piano humidifying systems that I have in my article on the topic on my Web site. Thanks in advance. Regards, Norman.

I was just looking into this pretty in depth the other day with my partner (PhD in neuroscience and close to completing their MD). There are very few papers published on the health effects of inhaled PTFE powder and there are no literature review articles that we could find. Basically: inconclusive, there's just not enough data yet.

That being said, there is a LOT of research currently being done on the effects of microplastics in general and the gist is that it's not great. Jury is still out on exactly how bad, but any amount is worse than no amount.

Any SDS for PTFE powder usually says to use it only in a well ventilated area or with a mask.

I wondered, since Teflon is one of the primary repositories of PFAS ("forever chemicals").  Rather than doing a Google search, I used ChatGPT to survey lots of documents quickly.  Here's the result:

Does PTFE powder contain PFAS chemicals?

"Yes, PTFE (polytetrafluoroethylene) is a type of fluoropolymer and is considered a member of the larger family of PFAS (per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances) chemicals. While PTFE itself is stable and does not break down easily in the environment, some manufacturing processes or additives used in PTFE production might involve other PFAS compounds. It's important to distinguish between the properties of PTFE and the broader category of PFAS, as not all PFAS are the same and their environmental impacts can vary."

Do humans absorb PFAS chemicals through the skin after touching PFTE powder?

"The absorption of PFAS chemicals through the skin is generally considered to be low. PTFE powder itself is not likely to pose significant risks for skin absorption. However, while direct contact with PTFE powder may not lead to significant PFAS absorption, it's essential to be cautious, as some PFAS compounds can be present in other formulations or products. 

Long-term exposure or inhalation of fine particles could potentially pose health risks, so using appropriate safety measures, like gloves and masks, is advisable when handling any chemical powders."

More sources on PTFE powder specifically would be welcome.

I got into this search after looking into a report that PFAS chemicals are present in 33% of dental floss.  The sources for that are instructive on PFAS in general.  Naturally, the ADA and the manufacturers say there's no problem.  Here are those sources:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/dental-floss-harmful-chemicals/

https://www.health.com/condition/oral-health/pfas-floss

https://www.rdhmag.com/patient-care/article/14233922/pfas-in-dental-floss-bad-for-our-health

https://www.mamavation.com/beauty/toxic-pfas-dental-floss-tooth-floss.html

Ron,

Two things that this AI article missed: As piano techs we are in regular (sometimes alarming) contact with lead oxide, the white powder that forms on lead and is much more soluble and absorbant through skin.  Old paint is another source of lead contamination, the facility that my workshop is in is an old WWII Navy facility and everything was painted with lead based paint.  I was concerned when a painting crew was diligently sanding buildings before repainting, all without protection (but hey, they were the lowest bid).

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 390-0512

Original Message:
Sent: 11-05-2024 11:46
From: Ron Newman
Subject: How safe is PTFE powder?

Original Message:
Sent: 11/4/2024 3:20:00 PM
From: Daniel DeBiasio
Subject: RE: How safe is PTFE powder?

The solvent in McLube 444 was n-propyl bromide. Regulations of which led to it being discontinued.

------------------------------
Daniel DeBiasio
Technical Education & Support
ddebiasio@steinway.com
718-267-3229
Steinway & Sons

Original Message:
Sent: 11-02-2024 14:35
From: Mathias Walters
Subject: How safe is PTFE powder?

The main solvent in McLube 1725L (clear liquid) is heptane, but it also has a small amount of toluene in it. Toluene is one of the ingredients used in lacquer thinner.

I wear an N95 mask whenever I use liquid McLube for any more than a single swab and make sure it's somewhere that won't get spilled.

I'm not sure what all else the propellant mixture has or the contents of the discontinued McLube 444A. McLube has a new formulation, 444 TTG that is non-flammable and also has some water based formulations of both PTFE and MoS2 solutions that I'm eager to test!

------------------------------
Mathias Walters
North Charleston SC
(843) 619-7593

Original Message:
Sent: 11-02-2024 14:16
From: Walter Bagnall
Subject: How safe is PTFE powder?

I quit usng McLube, mainly because I accidentally spilled some and was shocked at what it did to the lacquer finish.  Had no idea.  Caused me a lot of trouble.  Anything that caustic I can do without.

------------------------------
Walter Bagnall
Chillicothe OH

Original Message:
Sent: 11-02-2024 11:50
From: Ron Newman
Subject: How safe is PTFE powder?

Original Message:
Sent: 11/2/2024 10:58:00 AM
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: RE: How safe is PTFE powder?

Ron, I have been following the topic of forever chemicals a little but I hadn't thought of the teflon powder that we use as being a contributor. PFAS's are a serious topic – thanks for the heads-up on teflon use. 

In September of last year, in my post "Piano Humidifying Systems – Is There A Health Consideration?", I raised a perhaps similar concern -- about the necessary use of a bacterial and mildew control chemical in the water of piano evaporative heating systems for humidity control. (They often contain American Chemical Society CAS #68424-85-1 and/or CAS 7732-18-5 and/or CAS 8030-78-2). As with your ChatGPT search, I also did a couple AI searches on the chemicals (and reading of SDS's) and the results were not very pleasant! So I was worried about the danger to us in servicing pianos as well as to our customers who have them in their home – of breathing minute quantities of the chemicals.

The VERY CLEAR consensus of our colleagues was that humidifier additive chemicals are not a problem, at least in part due to the minute quantities that we and our piano customer's families are breathing in. Comparisons provided included putting chemicals in a toilet bowl, and houses that are full of all sorts of chemicals, and odors from CA glues, and how California over-does warning labels, and lots more! The message is that we all have to put things in perspective.

So bottom line, Ron, is that might similar reasoning also apply to teflon and PFAS's? Still, if anyone has a link to a refereed scientific study showing that inhaling minute quantities of CAS 68424-85-1 is perfectly healthy, I would appreciate them providing it. I could then change one (#1) of the several considerations with piano humidifying systems that I have in my article on the topic on my Web site. Thanks in advance. Regards, Norman.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 11-02-2024 00:42
From: Mathias Walters
Subject: How safe is PTFE powder?

I was just looking into this pretty in depth the other day with my partner (PhD in neuroscience and close to completing their MD). There are very few papers published on the health effects of inhaled PTFE powder and there are no literature review articles that we could find. Basically: inconclusive, there's just not enough data yet.

That being said, there is a LOT of research currently being done on the effects of microplastics in general and the gist is that it's not great. Jury is still out on exactly how bad, but any amount is worse than no amount.

Any SDS for PTFE powder usually says to use it only in a well ventilated area or with a mask.

------------------------------
Mathias Walters
North Charleston SC
(843) 619-7593

Original Message:
Sent: 11-01-2024 07:35
From: Ron Newman
Subject: How safe is PTFE powder?

I wondered, since Teflon is one of the primary repositories of PFAS ("forever chemicals").  Rather than doing a Google search, I used ChatGPT to survey lots of documents quickly.  Here's the result:

Does PTFE powder contain PFAS chemicals?

"Yes, PTFE (polytetrafluoroethylene) is a type of fluoropolymer and is considered a member of the larger family of PFAS (per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances) chemicals. While PTFE itself is stable and does not break down easily in the environment, some manufacturing processes or additives used in PTFE production might involve other PFAS compounds. It's important to distinguish between the properties of PTFE and the broader category of PFAS, as not all PFAS are the same and their environmental impacts can vary."

Do humans absorb PFAS chemicals through the skin after touching PFTE powder?

"The absorption of PFAS chemicals through the skin is generally considered to be low. PTFE powder itself is not likely to pose significant risks for skin absorption. However, while direct contact with PTFE powder may not lead to significant PFAS absorption, it's essential to be cautious, as some PFAS compounds can be present in other formulations or products. 

Long-term exposure or inhalation of fine particles could potentially pose health risks, so using appropriate safety measures, like gloves and masks, is advisable when handling any chemical powders."

More sources on PTFE powder specifically would be welcome.

I got into this search after looking into a report that PFAS chemicals are present in 33% of dental floss.  The sources for that are instructive on PFAS in general.  Naturally, the ADA and the manufacturers say there's no problem.  Here are those sources:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/dental-floss-harmful-chemicals/

https://www.health.com/condition/oral-health/pfas-floss

https://www.rdhmag.com/patient-care/article/14233922/pfas-in-dental-floss-bad-for-our-health

https://www.mamavation.com/beauty/toxic-pfas-dental-floss-tooth-floss.html

------------------------------
Ron Newman
Santa Fe NM
(505) 204-8255
------------------------------

Blaine, a little more information for your prep for next year's PTG talk on chemicals and biohazards – as relates to piano humidity systems. One topic to consider is potential electrical hazard. Most grand piano installations do not include a protection cover, so the obvious hazard potential of a mix of water with electricity for young toddlers. But this might be a difficult topic for you if the circuits in use are proprietary.

A little more on humidifier pad treatment chemicals -- I would classify the systems as having a 50% duty cycle year-round since my understanding is that the humidistat relays are likely SPDT (Single Pole Double Throw). Meaning that in the summer, after the humidity is lowered by the dehumidifier section, the heater on the liquid is once again turned on to add water (containing the pad treatment chemical) to the room and increase its humidity. So I figure that for a 24x7x365 operation the air exposure (for CAS 68424-85-1) might be around 2 or 3 ml (milliliters) per day year round. 

The SDS (Safety Data Sheet) for CAS 68424-85-1 certainly indicates caution for the chemical, but does not give guidance (that I have found) for breathing in diluted fumes. I tried ChatGPT with "how dangerous is an evaporative heater humidifier with CAS 68424-85-1 chemicals going into the air". A short summary: it is not considered highly toxic, but for sensitive individuals such as those with asthma or respiratory issues it can cause irritation of the respiratory system, eyes, or skin. I assume that this requires a discussion with the piano owner. The size of the room and the amount of personal exposure might be of interest. Regards, Norman.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 11-05-2024 12:51
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: How safe is PTFE powder?

Ron,

Two things that this AI article missed: As piano techs we are in regular (sometimes alarming) contact with lead oxide, the white powder that forms on lead and is much more soluble and absorbant through skin.  Old paint is another source of lead contamination, the facility that my workshop is in is an old WWII Navy facility and everything was painted with lead based paint.  I was concerned when a painting crew was diligently sanding buildings before repainting, all without protection (but hey, they were the lowest bid).

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 390-0512

Original Message:
Sent: 11-05-2024 11:46
From: Ron Newman
Subject: How safe is PTFE powder?

Original Message:
Sent: 11/4/2024 3:20:00 PM
From: Daniel DeBiasio
Subject: RE: How safe is PTFE powder?

The solvent in McLube 444 was n-propyl bromide. Regulations of which led to it being discontinued.

------------------------------
Daniel DeBiasio
Technical Education & Support
ddebiasio@steinway.com
718-267-3229
Steinway & Sons

Original Message:
Sent: 11-02-2024 14:35
From: Mathias Walters
Subject: How safe is PTFE powder?

The main solvent in McLube 1725L (clear liquid) is heptane, but it also has a small amount of toluene in it. Toluene is one of the ingredients used in lacquer thinner.

I wear an N95 mask whenever I use liquid McLube for any more than a single swab and make sure it's somewhere that won't get spilled.

I'm not sure what all else the propellant mixture has or the contents of the discontinued McLube 444A. McLube has a new formulation, 444 TTG that is non-flammable and also has some water based formulations of both PTFE and MoS2 solutions that I'm eager to test!

------------------------------
Mathias Walters
North Charleston SC
(843) 619-7593

Original Message:
Sent: 11-02-2024 14:16
From: Walter Bagnall
Subject: How safe is PTFE powder?

I quit usng McLube, mainly because I accidentally spilled some and was shocked at what it did to the lacquer finish.  Had no idea.  Caused me a lot of trouble.  Anything that caustic I can do without.

------------------------------
Walter Bagnall
Chillicothe OH

Original Message:
Sent: 11-02-2024 11:50
From: Ron Newman
Subject: How safe is PTFE powder?

Original Message:
Sent: 11/2/2024 10:58:00 AM
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: RE: How safe is PTFE powder?

Ron, I have been following the topic of forever chemicals a little but I hadn't thought of the teflon powder that we use as being a contributor. PFAS's are a serious topic – thanks for the heads-up on teflon use. 

In September of last year, in my post "Piano Humidifying Systems – Is There A Health Consideration?", I raised a perhaps similar concern -- about the necessary use of a bacterial and mildew control chemical in the water of piano evaporative heating systems for humidity control. (They often contain American Chemical Society CAS #68424-85-1 and/or CAS 7732-18-5 and/or CAS 8030-78-2). As with your ChatGPT search, I also did a couple AI searches on the chemicals (and reading of SDS's) and the results were not very pleasant! So I was worried about the danger to us in servicing pianos as well as to our customers who have them in their home – of breathing minute quantities of the chemicals.

The VERY CLEAR consensus of our colleagues was that humidifier additive chemicals are not a problem, at least in part due to the minute quantities that we and our piano customer's families are breathing in. Comparisons provided included putting chemicals in a toilet bowl, and houses that are full of all sorts of chemicals, and odors from CA glues, and how California over-does warning labels, and lots more! The message is that we all have to put things in perspective.

So bottom line, Ron, is that might similar reasoning also apply to teflon and PFAS's? Still, if anyone has a link to a refereed scientific study showing that inhaling minute quantities of CAS 68424-85-1 is perfectly healthy, I would appreciate them providing it. I could then change one (#1) of the several considerations with piano humidifying systems that I have in my article on the topic on my Web site. Thanks in advance. Regards, Norman.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 11-02-2024 00:42
From: Mathias Walters
Subject: How safe is PTFE powder?

I was just looking into this pretty in depth the other day with my partner (PhD in neuroscience and close to completing their MD). There are very few papers published on the health effects of inhaled PTFE powder and there are no literature review articles that we could find. Basically: inconclusive, there's just not enough data yet.

That being said, there is a LOT of research currently being done on the effects of microplastics in general and the gist is that it's not great. Jury is still out on exactly how bad, but any amount is worse than no amount.

Any SDS for PTFE powder usually says to use it only in a well ventilated area or with a mask.

------------------------------
Mathias Walters
North Charleston SC
(843) 619-7593

Original Message:
Sent: 11-01-2024 07:35
From: Ron Newman
Subject: How safe is PTFE powder?

I wondered, since Teflon is one of the primary repositories of PFAS ("forever chemicals").  Rather than doing a Google search, I used ChatGPT to survey lots of documents quickly.  Here's the result:

Does PTFE powder contain PFAS chemicals?

"Yes, PTFE (polytetrafluoroethylene) is a type of fluoropolymer and is considered a member of the larger family of PFAS (per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances) chemicals. While PTFE itself is stable and does not break down easily in the environment, some manufacturing processes or additives used in PTFE production might involve other PFAS compounds. It's important to distinguish between the properties of PTFE and the broader category of PFAS, as not all PFAS are the same and their environmental impacts can vary."

Do humans absorb PFAS chemicals through the skin after touching PFTE powder?

"The absorption of PFAS chemicals through the skin is generally considered to be low. PTFE powder itself is not likely to pose significant risks for skin absorption. However, while direct contact with PTFE powder may not lead to significant PFAS absorption, it's essential to be cautious, as some PFAS compounds can be present in other formulations or products. 

Long-term exposure or inhalation of fine particles could potentially pose health risks, so using appropriate safety measures, like gloves and masks, is advisable when handling any chemical powders."

More sources on PTFE powder specifically would be welcome.

I got into this search after looking into a report that PFAS chemicals are present in 33% of dental floss.  The sources for that are instructive on PFAS in general.  Naturally, the ADA and the manufacturers say there's no problem.  Here are those sources:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/dental-floss-harmful-chemicals/

https://www.health.com/condition/oral-health/pfas-floss

https://www.rdhmag.com/patient-care/article/14233922/pfas-in-dental-floss-bad-for-our-health

https://www.mamavation.com/beauty/toxic-pfas-dental-floss-tooth-floss.html

------------------------------
Ron Newman
Santa Fe NM
(505) 204-8255
------------------------------

BTW, soapstone works quite well on keybeds and wood to wood or wood to metal. I think it's pretty benign.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Blaine, a little more information for your prep for next year's PTG talk on chemicals and biohazards – as relates to piano humidity systems. One topic to consider is potential electrical hazard. Most grand piano installations do not include a protection cover, so the obvious hazard potential of a mix of water with electricity for young toddlers. But this might be a difficult topic for you if the circuits in use are proprietary.

A little more on humidifier pad treatment chemicals -- I would classify the systems as having a 50% duty cycle year-round since my understanding is that the humidistat relays are likely SPDT (Single Pole Double Throw). Meaning that in the summer, after the humidity is lowered by the dehumidifier section, the heater on the liquid is once again turned on to add water (containing the pad treatment chemical) to the room and increase its humidity. So I figure that for a 24x7x365 operation the air exposure (for CAS 68424-85-1) might be around 2 or 3 ml (milliliters) per day year round. 

The SDS (Safety Data Sheet) for CAS 68424-85-1 certainly indicates caution for the chemical, but does not give guidance (that I have found) for breathing in diluted fumes. I tried ChatGPT with "how dangerous is an evaporative heater humidifier with CAS 68424-85-1 chemicals going into the air". A short summary: it is not considered highly toxic, but for sensitive individuals such as those with asthma or respiratory issues it can cause irritation of the respiratory system, eyes, or skin. I assume that this requires a discussion with the piano owner. The size of the room and the amount of personal exposure might be of interest. Regards, Norman.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 11-05-2024 12:51
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: How safe is PTFE powder?

Ron,

Two things that this AI article missed: As piano techs we are in regular (sometimes alarming) contact with lead oxide, the white powder that forms on lead and is much more soluble and absorbant through skin.  Old paint is another source of lead contamination, the facility that my workshop is in is an old WWII Navy facility and everything was painted with lead based paint.  I was concerned when a painting crew was diligently sanding buildings before repainting, all without protection (but hey, they were the lowest bid).

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 390-0512

Original Message:
Sent: 11-05-2024 11:46
From: Ron Newman
Subject: How safe is PTFE powder?

Original Message:
Sent: 11/4/2024 3:20:00 PM
From: Daniel DeBiasio
Subject: RE: How safe is PTFE powder?

The solvent in McLube 444 was n-propyl bromide. Regulations of which led to it being discontinued.

------------------------------
Daniel DeBiasio
Technical Education & Support
ddebiasio@steinway.com
718-267-3229
Steinway & Sons

Original Message:
Sent: 11-02-2024 14:35
From: Mathias Walters
Subject: How safe is PTFE powder?

The main solvent in McLube 1725L (clear liquid) is heptane, but it also has a small amount of toluene in it. Toluene is one of the ingredients used in lacquer thinner.

I wear an N95 mask whenever I use liquid McLube for any more than a single swab and make sure it's somewhere that won't get spilled.

I'm not sure what all else the propellant mixture has or the contents of the discontinued McLube 444A. McLube has a new formulation, 444 TTG that is non-flammable and also has some water based formulations of both PTFE and MoS2 solutions that I'm eager to test!

------------------------------
Mathias Walters
North Charleston SC
(843) 619-7593

Original Message:
Sent: 11-02-2024 14:16
From: Walter Bagnall
Subject: How safe is PTFE powder?

I quit usng McLube, mainly because I accidentally spilled some and was shocked at what it did to the lacquer finish.  Had no idea.  Caused me a lot of trouble.  Anything that caustic I can do without.

------------------------------
Walter Bagnall
Chillicothe OH

Original Message:
Sent: 11-02-2024 11:50
From: Ron Newman
Subject: How safe is PTFE powder?

Original Message:
Sent: 11/2/2024 10:58:00 AM
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: RE: How safe is PTFE powder?

Ron, I have been following the topic of forever chemicals a little but I hadn't thought of the teflon powder that we use as being a contributor. PFAS's are a serious topic – thanks for the heads-up on teflon use. 

In September of last year, in my post "Piano Humidifying Systems – Is There A Health Consideration?", I raised a perhaps similar concern -- about the necessary use of a bacterial and mildew control chemical in the water of piano evaporative heating systems for humidity control. (They often contain American Chemical Society CAS #68424-85-1 and/or CAS 7732-18-5 and/or CAS 8030-78-2). As with your ChatGPT search, I also did a couple AI searches on the chemicals (and reading of SDS's) and the results were not very pleasant! So I was worried about the danger to us in servicing pianos as well as to our customers who have them in their home – of breathing minute quantities of the chemicals.

The VERY CLEAR consensus of our colleagues was that humidifier additive chemicals are not a problem, at least in part due to the minute quantities that we and our piano customer's families are breathing in. Comparisons provided included putting chemicals in a toilet bowl, and houses that are full of all sorts of chemicals, and odors from CA glues, and how California over-does warning labels, and lots more! The message is that we all have to put things in perspective.

So bottom line, Ron, is that might similar reasoning also apply to teflon and PFAS's? Still, if anyone has a link to a refereed scientific study showing that inhaling minute quantities of CAS 68424-85-1 is perfectly healthy, I would appreciate them providing it. I could then change one (#1) of the several considerations with piano humidifying systems that I have in my article on the topic on my Web site. Thanks in advance. Regards, Norman.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 11-02-2024 00:42
From: Mathias Walters
Subject: How safe is PTFE powder?

I was just looking into this pretty in depth the other day with my partner (PhD in neuroscience and close to completing their MD). There are very few papers published on the health effects of inhaled PTFE powder and there are no literature review articles that we could find. Basically: inconclusive, there's just not enough data yet.

That being said, there is a LOT of research currently being done on the effects of microplastics in general and the gist is that it's not great. Jury is still out on exactly how bad, but any amount is worse than no amount.

Any SDS for PTFE powder usually says to use it only in a well ventilated area or with a mask.

------------------------------
Mathias Walters
North Charleston SC
(843) 619-7593

Original Message:
Sent: 11-01-2024 07:35
From: Ron Newman
Subject: How safe is PTFE powder?

I wondered, since Teflon is one of the primary repositories of PFAS ("forever chemicals").  Rather than doing a Google search, I used ChatGPT to survey lots of documents quickly.  Here's the result:

Does PTFE powder contain PFAS chemicals?

"Yes, PTFE (polytetrafluoroethylene) is a type of fluoropolymer and is considered a member of the larger family of PFAS (per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances) chemicals. While PTFE itself is stable and does not break down easily in the environment, some manufacturing processes or additives used in PTFE production might involve other PFAS compounds. It's important to distinguish between the properties of PTFE and the broader category of PFAS, as not all PFAS are the same and their environmental impacts can vary."

Do humans absorb PFAS chemicals through the skin after touching PFTE powder?

"The absorption of PFAS chemicals through the skin is generally considered to be low. PTFE powder itself is not likely to pose significant risks for skin absorption. However, while direct contact with PTFE powder may not lead to significant PFAS absorption, it's essential to be cautious, as some PFAS compounds can be present in other formulations or products. 

Long-term exposure or inhalation of fine particles could potentially pose health risks, so using appropriate safety measures, like gloves and masks, is advisable when handling any chemical powders."

More sources on PTFE powder specifically would be welcome.

I got into this search after looking into a report that PFAS chemicals are present in 33% of dental floss.  The sources for that are instructive on PFAS in general.  Naturally, the ADA and the manufacturers say there's no problem.  Here are those sources:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/dental-floss-harmful-chemicals/

https://www.health.com/condition/oral-health/pfas-floss

https://www.rdhmag.com/patient-care/article/14233922/pfas-in-dental-floss-bad-for-our-health

https://www.mamavation.com/beauty/toxic-pfas-dental-floss-tooth-floss.html

------------------------------
Ron Newman
Santa Fe NM
(505) 204-8255
------------------------------

BTW, soapstone works quite well on keybeds and wood to wood or wood to metal. I think it's pretty benign.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 11-05-2024 16:38
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: How safe is PTFE powder?

Blaine, a little more information for your prep for next year's PTG talk on chemicals and biohazards – as relates to piano humidity systems. One topic to consider is potential electrical hazard. Most grand piano installations do not include a protection cover, so the obvious hazard potential of a mix of water with electricity for young toddlers. But this might be a difficult topic for you if the circuits in use are proprietary.

A little more on humidifier pad treatment chemicals -- I would classify the systems as having a 50% duty cycle year-round since my understanding is that the humidistat relays are likely SPDT (Single Pole Double Throw). Meaning that in the summer, after the humidity is lowered by the dehumidifier section, the heater on the liquid is once again turned on to add water (containing the pad treatment chemical) to the room and increase its humidity. So I figure that for a 24x7x365 operation the air exposure (for CAS 68424-85-1) might be around 2 or 3 ml (milliliters) per day year round. 

The SDS (Safety Data Sheet) for CAS 68424-85-1 certainly indicates caution for the chemical, but does not give guidance (that I have found) for breathing in diluted fumes. I tried ChatGPT with "how dangerous is an evaporative heater humidifier with CAS 68424-85-1 chemicals going into the air". A short summary: it is not considered highly toxic, but for sensitive individuals such as those with asthma or respiratory issues it can cause irritation of the respiratory system, eyes, or skin. I assume that this requires a discussion with the piano owner. The size of the room and the amount of personal exposure might be of interest. Regards, Norman.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 11-05-2024 12:51
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: How safe is PTFE powder?

Ron,

Two things that this AI article missed: As piano techs we are in regular (sometimes alarming) contact with lead oxide, the white powder that forms on lead and is much more soluble and absorbant through skin.  Old paint is another source of lead contamination, the facility that my workshop is in is an old WWII Navy facility and everything was painted with lead based paint.  I was concerned when a painting crew was diligently sanding buildings before repainting, all without protection (but hey, they were the lowest bid).

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 390-0512

Original Message:
Sent: 11-05-2024 11:46
From: Ron Newman
Subject: How safe is PTFE powder?

Original Message:
Sent: 11/4/2024 3:20:00 PM
From: Daniel DeBiasio
Subject: RE: How safe is PTFE powder?

The solvent in McLube 444 was n-propyl bromide. Regulations of which led to it being discontinued.

------------------------------
Daniel DeBiasio
Technical Education & Support
ddebiasio@steinway.com
718-267-3229
Steinway & Sons

Original Message:
Sent: 11-02-2024 14:35
From: Mathias Walters
Subject: How safe is PTFE powder?

The main solvent in McLube 1725L (clear liquid) is heptane, but it also has a small amount of toluene in it. Toluene is one of the ingredients used in lacquer thinner.

I wear an N95 mask whenever I use liquid McLube for any more than a single swab and make sure it's somewhere that won't get spilled.

I'm not sure what all else the propellant mixture has or the contents of the discontinued McLube 444A. McLube has a new formulation, 444 TTG that is non-flammable and also has some water based formulations of both PTFE and MoS2 solutions that I'm eager to test!

------------------------------
Mathias Walters
North Charleston SC
(843) 619-7593

Original Message:
Sent: 11-02-2024 14:16
From: Walter Bagnall
Subject: How safe is PTFE powder?

I quit usng McLube, mainly because I accidentally spilled some and was shocked at what it did to the lacquer finish.  Had no idea.  Caused me a lot of trouble.  Anything that caustic I can do without.

------------------------------
Walter Bagnall
Chillicothe OH

Original Message:
Sent: 11-02-2024 11:50
From: Ron Newman
Subject: How safe is PTFE powder?

Original Message:
Sent: 11/2/2024 10:58:00 AM
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: RE: How safe is PTFE powder?

Ron, I have been following the topic of forever chemicals a little but I hadn't thought of the teflon powder that we use as being a contributor. PFAS's are a serious topic – thanks for the heads-up on teflon use. 

In September of last year, in my post "Piano Humidifying Systems – Is There A Health Consideration?", I raised a perhaps similar concern -- about the necessary use of a bacterial and mildew control chemical in the water of piano evaporative heating systems for humidity control. (They often contain American Chemical Society CAS #68424-85-1 and/or CAS 7732-18-5 and/or CAS 8030-78-2). As with your ChatGPT search, I also did a couple AI searches on the chemicals (and reading of SDS's) and the results were not very pleasant! So I was worried about the danger to us in servicing pianos as well as to our customers who have them in their home – of breathing minute quantities of the chemicals.

The VERY CLEAR consensus of our colleagues was that humidifier additive chemicals are not a problem, at least in part due to the minute quantities that we and our piano customer's families are breathing in. Comparisons provided included putting chemicals in a toilet bowl, and houses that are full of all sorts of chemicals, and odors from CA glues, and how California over-does warning labels, and lots more! The message is that we all have to put things in perspective.

So bottom line, Ron, is that might similar reasoning also apply to teflon and PFAS's? Still, if anyone has a link to a refereed scientific study showing that inhaling minute quantities of CAS 68424-85-1 is perfectly healthy, I would appreciate them providing it. I could then change one (#1) of the several considerations with piano humidifying systems that I have in my article on the topic on my Web site. Thanks in advance. Regards, Norman.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 11-02-2024 00:42
From: Mathias Walters
Subject: How safe is PTFE powder?

I was just looking into this pretty in depth the other day with my partner (PhD in neuroscience and close to completing their MD). There are very few papers published on the health effects of inhaled PTFE powder and there are no literature review articles that we could find. Basically: inconclusive, there's just not enough data yet.

That being said, there is a LOT of research currently being done on the effects of microplastics in general and the gist is that it's not great. Jury is still out on exactly how bad, but any amount is worse than no amount.

Any SDS for PTFE powder usually says to use it only in a well ventilated area or with a mask.

------------------------------
Mathias Walters
North Charleston SC
(843) 619-7593

Original Message:
Sent: 11-01-2024 07:35
From: Ron Newman
Subject: How safe is PTFE powder?

I wondered, since Teflon is one of the primary repositories of PFAS ("forever chemicals").  Rather than doing a Google search, I used ChatGPT to survey lots of documents quickly.  Here's the result:

Does PTFE powder contain PFAS chemicals?

"Yes, PTFE (polytetrafluoroethylene) is a type of fluoropolymer and is considered a member of the larger family of PFAS (per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances) chemicals. While PTFE itself is stable and does not break down easily in the environment, some manufacturing processes or additives used in PTFE production might involve other PFAS compounds. It's important to distinguish between the properties of PTFE and the broader category of PFAS, as not all PFAS are the same and their environmental impacts can vary."

Do humans absorb PFAS chemicals through the skin after touching PFTE powder?

"The absorption of PFAS chemicals through the skin is generally considered to be low. PTFE powder itself is not likely to pose significant risks for skin absorption. However, while direct contact with PTFE powder may not lead to significant PFAS absorption, it's essential to be cautious, as some PFAS compounds can be present in other formulations or products. 

Long-term exposure or inhalation of fine particles could potentially pose health risks, so using appropriate safety measures, like gloves and masks, is advisable when handling any chemical powders."

More sources on PTFE powder specifically would be welcome.

I got into this search after looking into a report that PFAS chemicals are present in 33% of dental floss.  The sources for that are instructive on PFAS in general.  Naturally, the ADA and the manufacturers say there's no problem.  Here are those sources:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/dental-floss-harmful-chemicals/

https://www.health.com/condition/oral-health/pfas-floss

https://www.rdhmag.com/patient-care/article/14233922/pfas-in-dental-floss-bad-for-our-health

https://www.mamavation.com/beauty/toxic-pfas-dental-floss-tooth-floss.html

------------------------------
Ron Newman
Santa Fe NM
(505) 204-8255
------------------------------