Pianotech

In a heavy week of tuning today I had a client willing to hold the camera. For those who want to claim strike-sustain differences on a well tuned piano there are lots of sound samples here to analyse and the inadequacy of all mobile apps and Fast Fourier Transform technology is visible. As you listen to the video follow along with your own app and see if it can keep up with a pro ETD industry standard in Europe. It's apparent that there is no strike sustain pitch difference. Piano tuning with ETD or mobile phone app
Piano tuning with ETD or mobile phone app

In my opinion it's unprofessional to turn up to tune with a mobile phone as one's tool and none of the app software is fit for purpose as demonstrated in the video. A mobile phone app says to the client that they can do what you do if they get the app so in any event it's not good for the profession 

Following on from the large noise recently about strike/sustain tuning, it can be seen here that either it is pseudo science or that one should tune for both. Pianos tuned in the past days without strike sustain pitch difference include Steinway x2, Yamaha, Bluthner, Toyo and for good measure a crap Esty baby

None gave strike sustain frequency change of any consequence - phase change but not pitch change.

Likewise a soundboard will resonate only at the frequency it is driven at. Put a pitchfork on an unloaded soundboard and wherever you put it the frequency of the fork won't vary. When loaded with resonating strings the only allow frequencies will be those of the strings as they are the only allowed modes of vibration

If the string frequencies are randomised with harmonics all over the place then the instrument won't resonate but overall the vibrating frequency driving the soundboard will be driven across the whole vibrating system. A microphone will pick up that overriding frequency wherever it is placed and the only factor will be the signal over the noise of any local strings. Accordingly any talk of eigenmodes affecting "proper" microphone siting is pseudoscience.

A pick-up device is not needed for microscopic frequency examination in any practical tuning situation. A non-tuner won't understand this and a novice might experience some spurious apparent effects that those of us tuning for years just intuitively overcome.

Someone who does understand tuning the instrument for resonance won't understand the way in which harmonics and scale notes interact and thereby how the soundboard loading can be manipulated to make a Yamaha sound like a Bosendorfer

If of interest I'll upload a couple of videos of tuning the central three octaves of Toyo and the Esty which can give an idea of how a pro ETD machine can respond, providing alternate methods of tuning unisons and other issues way beyond the utility of an app on a phone.

Feeling my way on the instruments whilst recording the videos I was indecisive so no doubt boring on initial notes but returning to voice a C3 today which I'd tuned in about 45 mins I realised that when pushed I tune unisons by individual strings by machine or two strings by ear if clear and quicker and then return to test all notes for any which aren't clear. One often makes inuitive decisions which one doesn't even know how to explain so any video I might do isn't at all definitive of any standard methodology I use. Every instrument is different and the circumstances of one's work is likewise 

best wishes

David P

David,

With all due respect I counted 19 times that you yanked that string down and up. Please tell me you don't do this on every string on every piano. Generally speaking, most of us on this side of the pond move the string absolutely as little as possible and achieve good stability while reducing wear on pinblock and work hardening of wire. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

In a heavy week of tuning today I had a client willing to hold the camera. For those who want to claim strike-sustain differences on a well tuned piano there are lots of sound samples here to analyse and the inadequacy of all mobile apps and Fast Fourier Transform technology is visible. As you listen to the video follow along with your own app and see if it can keep up with a pro ETD industry standard in Europe. It's apparent that there is no strike sustain pitch difference. Piano tuning with ETD or mobile phone app
Piano tuning with ETD or mobile phone app

In my opinion it's unprofessional to turn up to tune with a mobile phone as one's tool and none of the app software is fit for purpose as demonstrated in the video. A mobile phone app says to the client that they can do what you do if they get the app so in any event it's not good for the profession 

Following on from the large noise recently about strike/sustain tuning, it can be seen here that either it is pseudo science or that one should tune for both. Pianos tuned in the past days without strike sustain pitch difference include Steinway x2, Yamaha, Bluthner, Toyo and for good measure a crap Esty baby

None gave strike sustain frequency change of any consequence - phase change but not pitch change.

Likewise a soundboard will resonate only at the frequency it is driven at. Put a pitchfork on an unloaded soundboard and wherever you put it the frequency of the fork won't vary. When loaded with resonating strings the only allow frequencies will be those of the strings as they are the only allowed modes of vibration

If the string frequencies are randomised with harmonics all over the place then the instrument won't resonate but overall the vibrating frequency driving the soundboard will be driven across the whole vibrating system. A microphone will pick up that overriding frequency wherever it is placed and the only factor will be the signal over the noise of any local strings. Accordingly any talk of eigenmodes affecting "proper" microphone siting is pseudoscience.

A pick-up device is not needed for microscopic frequency examination in any practical tuning situation. A non-tuner won't understand this and a novice might experience some spurious apparent effects that those of us tuning for years just intuitively overcome.

Someone who does understand tuning the instrument for resonance won't understand the way in which harmonics and scale notes interact and thereby how the soundboard loading can be manipulated to make a Yamaha sound like a Bosendorfer

If of interest I'll upload a couple of videos of tuning the central three octaves of Toyo and the Esty which can give an idea of how a pro ETD machine can respond, providing alternate methods of tuning unisons and other issues way beyond the utility of an app on a phone.

Feeling my way on the instruments whilst recording the videos I was indecisive so no doubt boring on initial notes but returning to voice a C3 today which I'd tuned in about 45 mins I realised that when pushed I tune unisons by individual strings by machine or two strings by ear if clear and quicker and then return to test all notes for any which aren't clear. One often makes inuitive decisions which one doesn't even know how to explain so any video I might do isn't at all definitive of any standard methodology I use. Every instrument is different and the circumstances of one's work is likewise 

best wishes

David P

In a heavy week of tuning today I had a client willing to hold the camera. For those who want to claim strike-sustain differences on a well tuned piano there are lots of sound samples here to analyse and the inadequacy of all mobile apps and Fast Fourier Transform technology is visible. As you listen to the video follow along with your own app and see if it can keep up with a pro ETD industry standard in Europe. It's apparent that there is no strike sustain pitch difference. Piano tuning with ETD or mobile phone app
Piano tuning with ETD or mobile phone app

In my opinion it's unprofessional to turn up to tune with a mobile phone as one's tool and none of the app software is fit for purpose as demonstrated in the video. A mobile phone app says to the client that they can do what you do if they get the app so in any event it's not good for the profession 

Following on from the large noise recently about strike/sustain tuning, it can be seen here that either it is pseudo science or that one should tune for both. Pianos tuned in the past days without strike sustain pitch difference include Steinway x2, Yamaha, Bluthner, Toyo and for good measure a crap Esty baby

None gave strike sustain frequency change of any consequence - phase change but not pitch change.

Likewise a soundboard will resonate only at the frequency it is driven at. Put a pitchfork on an unloaded soundboard and wherever you put it the frequency of the fork won't vary. When loaded with resonating strings the only allow frequencies will be those of the strings as they are the only allowed modes of vibration

If the string frequencies are randomised with harmonics all over the place then the instrument won't resonate but overall the vibrating frequency driving the soundboard will be driven across the whole vibrating system. A microphone will pick up that overriding frequency wherever it is placed and the only factor will be the signal over the noise of any local strings. Accordingly any talk of eigenmodes affecting "proper" microphone siting is pseudoscience.

A pick-up device is not needed for microscopic frequency examination in any practical tuning situation. A non-tuner won't understand this and a novice might experience some spurious apparent effects that those of us tuning for years just intuitively overcome.

Someone who does understand tuning the instrument for resonance won't understand the way in which harmonics and scale notes interact and thereby how the soundboard loading can be manipulated to make a Yamaha sound like a Bosendorfer

If of interest I'll upload a couple of videos of tuning the central three octaves of Toyo and the Esty which can give an idea of how a pro ETD machine can respond, providing alternate methods of tuning unisons and other issues way beyond the utility of an app on a phone.

Feeling my way on the instruments whilst recording the videos I was indecisive so no doubt boring on initial notes but returning to voice a C3 today which I'd tuned in about 45 mins I realised that when pushed I tune unisons by individual strings by machine or two strings by ear if clear and quicker and then return to test all notes for any which aren't clear. One often makes inuitive decisions which one doesn't even know how to explain so any video I might do isn't at all definitive of any standard methodology I use. Every instrument is different and the circumstances of one's work is likewise 

best wishes

David P

------------------------------
David Pinnegar BSc ARCS
Hammerwood Park, East Grinstead, Sussex, UK
+44 1342 850594
"High Definition" Tuning
------------------------------

You seem to be taking a single example and using it as a representative of the entire category.

I can't speak for any others, but for the record, CyberTuner specifically is using a completely different technology for primary digital signal processing. FFT is not the only way to handle signal processing. This is actually a well explored discussion, and a misunderstanding which caused CyberTuner to receive a fair amount of flack from one "solid state" device maker during our early days of proving out and demonstrating our system.

Speaking generally again, broadly categorizing things with a single common feature ("all mobile apps" as our current example) can lead to errors. It's like saying "all cars" have transmission problems, when many don't because they either have well built transmissions or just use something completely different.

As for the idea of a mobile phone app devaluing a professional tuner, I can't agree at face value. If your client doesn't like the piano sound and you point to the device as your authority, yes, that's 100% correct (but it's also the case with whatever else you're using). You have no value to the client other than as someone who downloaded an app. You absolutely need to be a knowledgeable professional with skills and experience in more than just stopping lights on a screen, whether that be on a dedicated piece of hardware or otherwise. Those skills should include an aural tuning basis, troubleshooting, regulating, voicing, piano history, and being able to articulate an instrument's needs and issues to a customer, just to name a few. If your customer is saying they're firing you because they can buy the same app you have, then you've either failed to present yourself as that valuable resource to them, or because they've refused to see it. In the latter case, I'm happy to see that customer embark on a journey of discovery.

------------------------------
http://www.facebook.com/ReyburnPianoTech
http://www.reyburntools.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-04-2024 14:50
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Inadequacy of mobile apps and fallacy of strike sustain and soundboard eigenmode pitch deviations

In a heavy week of tuning today I had a client willing to hold the camera. For those who want to claim strike-sustain differences on a well tuned piano there are lots of sound samples here to analyse and the inadequacy of all mobile apps and Fast Fourier Transform technology is visible. As you listen to the video follow along with your own app and see if it can keep up with a pro ETD industry standard in Europe. It's apparent that there is no strike sustain pitch difference. Piano tuning with ETD or mobile phone app
Piano tuning with ETD or mobile phone app

In my opinion it's unprofessional to turn up to tune with a mobile phone as one's tool and none of the app software is fit for purpose as demonstrated in the video. A mobile phone app says to the client that they can do what you do if they get the app so in any event it's not good for the profession 

Following on from the large noise recently about strike/sustain tuning, it can be seen here that either it is pseudo science or that one should tune for both. Pianos tuned in the past days without strike sustain pitch difference include Steinway x2, Yamaha, Bluthner, Toyo and for good measure a crap Esty baby

None gave strike sustain frequency change of any consequence - phase change but not pitch change.

Likewise a soundboard will resonate only at the frequency it is driven at. Put a pitchfork on an unloaded soundboard and wherever you put it the frequency of the fork won't vary. When loaded with resonating strings the only allow frequencies will be those of the strings as they are the only allowed modes of vibration

If the string frequencies are randomised with harmonics all over the place then the instrument won't resonate but overall the vibrating frequency driving the soundboard will be driven across the whole vibrating system. A microphone will pick up that overriding frequency wherever it is placed and the only factor will be the signal over the noise of any local strings. Accordingly any talk of eigenmodes affecting "proper" microphone siting is pseudoscience.

A pick-up device is not needed for microscopic frequency examination in any practical tuning situation. A non-tuner won't understand this and a novice might experience some spurious apparent effects that those of us tuning for years just intuitively overcome.

Someone who does understand tuning the instrument for resonance won't understand the way in which harmonics and scale notes interact and thereby how the soundboard loading can be manipulated to make a Yamaha sound like a Bosendorfer

If of interest I'll upload a couple of videos of tuning the central three octaves of Toyo and the Esty which can give an idea of how a pro ETD machine can respond, providing alternate methods of tuning unisons and other issues way beyond the utility of an app on a phone.

Feeling my way on the instruments whilst recording the videos I was indecisive so no doubt boring on initial notes but returning to voice a C3 today which I'd tuned in about 45 mins I realised that when pushed I tune unisons by individual strings by machine or two strings by ear if clear and quicker and then return to test all notes for any which aren't clear. One often makes inuitive decisions which one doesn't even know how to explain so any video I might do isn't at all definitive of any standard methodology I use. Every instrument is different and the circumstances of one's work is likewise 

best wishes

David P

------------------------------
David Pinnegar BSc ARCS
Hammerwood Park, East Grinstead, Sussex, UK
+44 1342 850594
"High Definition" Tuning
------------------------------

You seem to be taking a single example and using it as a representative of the entire category.

I can't speak for any others, but for the record, CyberTuner specifically is using a completely different technology for primary digital signal processing. FFT is not the only way to handle signal processing. This is actually a well explored discussion, and a misunderstanding which caused CyberTuner to receive a fair amount of flack from one "solid state" device maker during our early days of proving out and demonstrating our system.

Speaking generally again, broadly categorizing things with a single common feature ("all mobile apps" as our current example) can lead to errors. It's like saying "all cars" have transmission problems, when many don't because they either have well built transmissions or just use something completely different.

As for the idea of a mobile phone app devaluing a professional tuner, I can't agree at face value. If your client doesn't like the piano sound and you point to the device as your authority, yes, that's 100% correct (but it's also the case with whatever else you're using). You have no value to the client other than as someone who downloaded an app. You absolutely need to be a knowledgeable professional with skills and experience in more than just stopping lights on a screen, whether that be on a dedicated piece of hardware or otherwise. Those skills should include an aural tuning basis, troubleshooting, regulating, voicing, piano history, and being able to articulate an instrument's needs and issues to a customer, just to name a few. If your customer is saying they're firing you because they can buy the same app you have, then you've either failed to present yourself as that valuable resource to them, or because they've refused to see it. In the latter case, I'm happy to see that customer embark on a journey of discovery.

------------------------------
http://www.facebook.com/ReyburnPianoTech
http://www.reyburntools.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-04-2024 14:50
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Inadequacy of mobile apps and fallacy of strike sustain and soundboard eigenmode pitch deviations

In a heavy week of tuning today I had a client willing to hold the camera. For those who want to claim strike-sustain differences on a well tuned piano there are lots of sound samples here to analyse and the inadequacy of all mobile apps and Fast Fourier Transform technology is visible. As you listen to the video follow along with your own app and see if it can keep up with a pro ETD industry standard in Europe. It's apparent that there is no strike sustain pitch difference. Piano tuning with ETD or mobile phone app
Piano tuning with ETD or mobile phone app

In my opinion it's unprofessional to turn up to tune with a mobile phone as one's tool and none of the app software is fit for purpose as demonstrated in the video. A mobile phone app says to the client that they can do what you do if they get the app so in any event it's not good for the profession 

Following on from the large noise recently about strike/sustain tuning, it can be seen here that either it is pseudo science or that one should tune for both. Pianos tuned in the past days without strike sustain pitch difference include Steinway x2, Yamaha, Bluthner, Toyo and for good measure a crap Esty baby

None gave strike sustain frequency change of any consequence - phase change but not pitch change.

Likewise a soundboard will resonate only at the frequency it is driven at. Put a pitchfork on an unloaded soundboard and wherever you put it the frequency of the fork won't vary. When loaded with resonating strings the only allow frequencies will be those of the strings as they are the only allowed modes of vibration

If the string frequencies are randomised with harmonics all over the place then the instrument won't resonate but overall the vibrating frequency driving the soundboard will be driven across the whole vibrating system. A microphone will pick up that overriding frequency wherever it is placed and the only factor will be the signal over the noise of any local strings. Accordingly any talk of eigenmodes affecting "proper" microphone siting is pseudoscience.

A pick-up device is not needed for microscopic frequency examination in any practical tuning situation. A non-tuner won't understand this and a novice might experience some spurious apparent effects that those of us tuning for years just intuitively overcome.

Someone who does understand tuning the instrument for resonance won't understand the way in which harmonics and scale notes interact and thereby how the soundboard loading can be manipulated to make a Yamaha sound like a Bosendorfer

If of interest I'll upload a couple of videos of tuning the central three octaves of Toyo and the Esty which can give an idea of how a pro ETD machine can respond, providing alternate methods of tuning unisons and other issues way beyond the utility of an app on a phone.

Feeling my way on the instruments whilst recording the videos I was indecisive so no doubt boring on initial notes but returning to voice a C3 today which I'd tuned in about 45 mins I realised that when pushed I tune unisons by individual strings by machine or two strings by ear if clear and quicker and then return to test all notes for any which aren't clear. One often makes inuitive decisions which one doesn't even know how to explain so any video I might do isn't at all definitive of any standard methodology I use. Every instrument is different and the circumstances of one's work is likewise 

best wishes

David P

------------------------------
David Pinnegar BSc ARCS
Hammerwood Park, East Grinstead, Sussex, UK
+44 1342 850594
"High Definition" Tuning
------------------------------

You seem to be taking a single example and using it as a representative of the entire category.

I can't speak for any others, but for the record, CyberTuner specifically is using a completely different technology for primary digital signal processing. FFT is not the only way to handle signal processing. This is actually a well explored discussion, and a misunderstanding which caused CyberTuner to receive a fair amount of flack from one "solid state" device maker during our early days of proving out and demonstrating our system.

Speaking generally again, broadly categorizing things with a single common feature ("all mobile apps" as our current example) can lead to errors. It's like saying "all cars" have transmission problems, when many don't because they either have well built transmissions or just use something completely different.

As for the idea of a mobile phone app devaluing a professional tuner, I can't agree at face value. If your client doesn't like the piano sound and you point to the device as your authority, yes, that's 100% correct (but it's also the case with whatever else you're using). You have no value to the client other than as someone who downloaded an app. You absolutely need to be a knowledgeable professional with skills and experience in more than just stopping lights on a screen, whether that be on a dedicated piece of hardware or otherwise. Those skills should include an aural tuning basis, troubleshooting, regulating, voicing, piano history, and being able to articulate an instrument's needs and issues to a customer, just to name a few. If your customer is saying they're firing you because they can buy the same app you have, then you've either failed to present yourself as that valuable resource to them, or because they've refused to see it. In the latter case, I'm happy to see that customer embark on a journey of discovery.

------------------------------
http://www.facebook.com/ReyburnPianoTech
http://www.reyburntools.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-04-2024 14:50
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Inadequacy of mobile apps and fallacy of strike sustain and soundboard eigenmode pitch deviations

In a heavy week of tuning today I had a client willing to hold the camera. For those who want to claim strike-sustain differences on a well tuned piano there are lots of sound samples here to analyse and the inadequacy of all mobile apps and Fast Fourier Transform technology is visible. As you listen to the video follow along with your own app and see if it can keep up with a pro ETD industry standard in Europe. It's apparent that there is no strike sustain pitch difference. Piano tuning with ETD or mobile phone app
Piano tuning with ETD or mobile phone app

In my opinion it's unprofessional to turn up to tune with a mobile phone as one's tool and none of the app software is fit for purpose as demonstrated in the video. A mobile phone app says to the client that they can do what you do if they get the app so in any event it's not good for the profession 

Following on from the large noise recently about strike/sustain tuning, it can be seen here that either it is pseudo science or that one should tune for both. Pianos tuned in the past days without strike sustain pitch difference include Steinway x2, Yamaha, Bluthner, Toyo and for good measure a crap Esty baby

None gave strike sustain frequency change of any consequence - phase change but not pitch change.

Likewise a soundboard will resonate only at the frequency it is driven at. Put a pitchfork on an unloaded soundboard and wherever you put it the frequency of the fork won't vary. When loaded with resonating strings the only allow frequencies will be those of the strings as they are the only allowed modes of vibration

If the string frequencies are randomised with harmonics all over the place then the instrument won't resonate but overall the vibrating frequency driving the soundboard will be driven across the whole vibrating system. A microphone will pick up that overriding frequency wherever it is placed and the only factor will be the signal over the noise of any local strings. Accordingly any talk of eigenmodes affecting "proper" microphone siting is pseudoscience.

A pick-up device is not needed for microscopic frequency examination in any practical tuning situation. A non-tuner won't understand this and a novice might experience some spurious apparent effects that those of us tuning for years just intuitively overcome.

Someone who does understand tuning the instrument for resonance won't understand the way in which harmonics and scale notes interact and thereby how the soundboard loading can be manipulated to make a Yamaha sound like a Bosendorfer

If of interest I'll upload a couple of videos of tuning the central three octaves of Toyo and the Esty which can give an idea of how a pro ETD machine can respond, providing alternate methods of tuning unisons and other issues way beyond the utility of an app on a phone.

Feeling my way on the instruments whilst recording the videos I was indecisive so no doubt boring on initial notes but returning to voice a C3 today which I'd tuned in about 45 mins I realised that when pushed I tune unisons by individual strings by machine or two strings by ear if clear and quicker and then return to test all notes for any which aren't clear. One often makes inuitive decisions which one doesn't even know how to explain so any video I might do isn't at all definitive of any standard methodology I use. Every instrument is different and the circumstances of one's work is likewise 

best wishes

David P

------------------------------
David Pinnegar BSc ARCS
Hammerwood Park, East Grinstead, Sussex, UK
+44 1342 850594
"High Definition" Tuning
------------------------------

You seem to be taking a single example and using it as a representative of the entire category.

I can't speak for any others, but for the record, CyberTuner specifically is using a completely different technology for primary digital signal processing. FFT is not the only way to handle signal processing. This is actually a well explored discussion, and a misunderstanding which caused CyberTuner to receive a fair amount of flack from one "solid state" device maker during our early days of proving out and demonstrating our system.

Speaking generally again, broadly categorizing things with a single common feature ("all mobile apps" as our current example) can lead to errors. It's like saying "all cars" have transmission problems, when many don't because they either have well built transmissions or just use something completely different.

As for the idea of a mobile phone app devaluing a professional tuner, I can't agree at face value. If your client doesn't like the piano sound and you point to the device as your authority, yes, that's 100% correct (but it's also the case with whatever else you're using). You have no value to the client other than as someone who downloaded an app. You absolutely need to be a knowledgeable professional with skills and experience in more than just stopping lights on a screen, whether that be on a dedicated piece of hardware or otherwise. Those skills should include an aural tuning basis, troubleshooting, regulating, voicing, piano history, and being able to articulate an instrument's needs and issues to a customer, just to name a few. If your customer is saying they're firing you because they can buy the same app you have, then you've either failed to present yourself as that valuable resource to them, or because they've refused to see it. In the latter case, I'm happy to see that customer embark on a journey of discovery.

------------------------------
http://www.facebook.com/ReyburnPianoTech
http://www.reyburntools.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-04-2024 14:50
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Inadequacy of mobile apps and fallacy of strike sustain and soundboard eigenmode pitch deviations

In a heavy week of tuning today I had a client willing to hold the camera. For those who want to claim strike-sustain differences on a well tuned piano there are lots of sound samples here to analyse and the inadequacy of all mobile apps and Fast Fourier Transform technology is visible. As you listen to the video follow along with your own app and see if it can keep up with a pro ETD industry standard in Europe. It's apparent that there is no strike sustain pitch difference. Piano tuning with ETD or mobile phone app
Piano tuning with ETD or mobile phone app

In my opinion it's unprofessional to turn up to tune with a mobile phone as one's tool and none of the app software is fit for purpose as demonstrated in the video. A mobile phone app says to the client that they can do what you do if they get the app so in any event it's not good for the profession 

Following on from the large noise recently about strike/sustain tuning, it can be seen here that either it is pseudo science or that one should tune for both. Pianos tuned in the past days without strike sustain pitch difference include Steinway x2, Yamaha, Bluthner, Toyo and for good measure a crap Esty baby

None gave strike sustain frequency change of any consequence - phase change but not pitch change.

Likewise a soundboard will resonate only at the frequency it is driven at. Put a pitchfork on an unloaded soundboard and wherever you put it the frequency of the fork won't vary. When loaded with resonating strings the only allow frequencies will be those of the strings as they are the only allowed modes of vibration

If the string frequencies are randomised with harmonics all over the place then the instrument won't resonate but overall the vibrating frequency driving the soundboard will be driven across the whole vibrating system. A microphone will pick up that overriding frequency wherever it is placed and the only factor will be the signal over the noise of any local strings. Accordingly any talk of eigenmodes affecting "proper" microphone siting is pseudoscience.

A pick-up device is not needed for microscopic frequency examination in any practical tuning situation. A non-tuner won't understand this and a novice might experience some spurious apparent effects that those of us tuning for years just intuitively overcome.

Someone who does understand tuning the instrument for resonance won't understand the way in which harmonics and scale notes interact and thereby how the soundboard loading can be manipulated to make a Yamaha sound like a Bosendorfer

If of interest I'll upload a couple of videos of tuning the central three octaves of Toyo and the Esty which can give an idea of how a pro ETD machine can respond, providing alternate methods of tuning unisons and other issues way beyond the utility of an app on a phone.

Feeling my way on the instruments whilst recording the videos I was indecisive so no doubt boring on initial notes but returning to voice a C3 today which I'd tuned in about 45 mins I realised that when pushed I tune unisons by individual strings by machine or two strings by ear if clear and quicker and then return to test all notes for any which aren't clear. One often makes inuitive decisions which one doesn't even know how to explain so any video I might do isn't at all definitive of any standard methodology I use. Every instrument is different and the circumstances of one's work is likewise 

best wishes

David P

------------------------------
David Pinnegar BSc ARCS
Hammerwood Park, East Grinstead, Sussex, UK
+44 1342 850594
"High Definition" Tuning
------------------------------

In a heavy week of tuning today I had a client willing to hold the camera. For those who want to claim strike-sustain differences on a well tuned piano there are lots of sound samples here to analyse and the inadequacy of all mobile apps and Fast Fourier Transform technology is visible. As you listen to the video follow along with your own app and see if it can keep up with a pro ETD industry standard in Europe. It's apparent that there is no strike sustain pitch difference. Piano tuning with ETD or mobile phone app
Piano tuning with ETD or mobile phone app

In my opinion it's unprofessional to turn up to tune with a mobile phone as one's tool and none of the app software is fit for purpose as demonstrated in the video. A mobile phone app says to the client that they can do what you do if they get the app so in any event it's not good for the profession 

Following on from the large noise recently about strike/sustain tuning, it can be seen here that either it is pseudo science or that one should tune for both. Pianos tuned in the past days without strike sustain pitch difference include Steinway x2, Yamaha, Bluthner, Toyo and for good measure a crap Esty baby

None gave strike sustain frequency change of any consequence - phase change but not pitch change.

Likewise a soundboard will resonate only at the frequency it is driven at. Put a pitchfork on an unloaded soundboard and wherever you put it the frequency of the fork won't vary. When loaded with resonating strings the only allow frequencies will be those of the strings as they are the only allowed modes of vibration

If the string frequencies are randomised with harmonics all over the place then the instrument won't resonate but overall the vibrating frequency driving the soundboard will be driven across the whole vibrating system. A microphone will pick up that overriding frequency wherever it is placed and the only factor will be the signal over the noise of any local strings. Accordingly any talk of eigenmodes affecting "proper" microphone siting is pseudoscience.

A pick-up device is not needed for microscopic frequency examination in any practical tuning situation. A non-tuner won't understand this and a novice might experience some spurious apparent effects that those of us tuning for years just intuitively overcome.

Someone who does understand tuning the instrument for resonance won't understand the way in which harmonics and scale notes interact and thereby how the soundboard loading can be manipulated to make a Yamaha sound like a Bosendorfer

If of interest I'll upload a couple of videos of tuning the central three octaves of Toyo and the Esty which can give an idea of how a pro ETD machine can respond, providing alternate methods of tuning unisons and other issues way beyond the utility of an app on a phone.

Feeling my way on the instruments whilst recording the videos I was indecisive so no doubt boring on initial notes but returning to voice a C3 today which I'd tuned in about 45 mins I realised that when pushed I tune unisons by individual strings by machine or two strings by ear if clear and quicker and then return to test all notes for any which aren't clear. One often makes inuitive decisions which one doesn't even know how to explain so any video I might do isn't at all definitive of any standard methodology I use. Every instrument is different and the circumstances of one's work is likewise 

best wishes

David P

David wrote: "In my opinion it's unprofessional to turn up to tune with a mobile phone as one's tool and none of the app software is fit for purpose as demonstrated in the video. A mobile phone app says to the client that they can do what you do if they get the app so in any event it's not good for the profession."

I see your point, and that's why I prefer to use an iPad for running the tuning software. At least it's a stand-alone device. But like Peter said, today's mobile devices are supercomputers, exponentially more powerful than the computers that helped put man on the moon. There is no reason to be ashamed of using one for professional work - almost every industry does now.

Also, it's my understanding that the strobe-tuning technology is quite antiquated. (I could be mistaken and maybe someone will enlighten me.) That's not to say it doesn't or can't work. My point is that if old technology can be used to tune a piano, new technology can certainly work as well. It's different, yes, but different is not automatically bad. 

In a heavy week of tuning today I had a client willing to hold the camera. For those who want to claim strike-sustain differences on a well tuned piano there are lots of sound samples here to analyse and the inadequacy of all mobile apps and Fast Fourier Transform technology is visible. As you listen to the video follow along with your own app and see if it can keep up with a pro ETD industry standard in Europe. It's apparent that there is no strike sustain pitch difference. Piano tuning with ETD or mobile phone app
Piano tuning with ETD or mobile phone app

In my opinion it's unprofessional to turn up to tune with a mobile phone as one's tool and none of the app software is fit for purpose as demonstrated in the video. A mobile phone app says to the client that they can do what you do if they get the app so in any event it's not good for the profession 

Following on from the large noise recently about strike/sustain tuning, it can be seen here that either it is pseudo science or that one should tune for both. Pianos tuned in the past days without strike sustain pitch difference include Steinway x2, Yamaha, Bluthner, Toyo and for good measure a crap Esty baby

None gave strike sustain frequency change of any consequence - phase change but not pitch change.

Likewise a soundboard will resonate only at the frequency it is driven at. Put a pitchfork on an unloaded soundboard and wherever you put it the frequency of the fork won't vary. When loaded with resonating strings the only allow frequencies will be those of the strings as they are the only allowed modes of vibration

If the string frequencies are randomised with harmonics all over the place then the instrument won't resonate but overall the vibrating frequency driving the soundboard will be driven across the whole vibrating system. A microphone will pick up that overriding frequency wherever it is placed and the only factor will be the signal over the noise of any local strings. Accordingly any talk of eigenmodes affecting "proper" microphone siting is pseudoscience.

A pick-up device is not needed for microscopic frequency examination in any practical tuning situation. A non-tuner won't understand this and a novice might experience some spurious apparent effects that those of us tuning for years just intuitively overcome.

Someone who does understand tuning the instrument for resonance won't understand the way in which harmonics and scale notes interact and thereby how the soundboard loading can be manipulated to make a Yamaha sound like a Bosendorfer

If of interest I'll upload a couple of videos of tuning the central three octaves of Toyo and the Esty which can give an idea of how a pro ETD machine can respond, providing alternate methods of tuning unisons and other issues way beyond the utility of an app on a phone.

Feeling my way on the instruments whilst recording the videos I was indecisive so no doubt boring on initial notes but returning to voice a C3 today which I'd tuned in about 45 mins I realised that when pushed I tune unisons by individual strings by machine or two strings by ear if clear and quicker and then return to test all notes for any which aren't clear. One often makes inuitive decisions which one doesn't even know how to explain so any video I might do isn't at all definitive of any standard methodology I use. Every instrument is different and the circumstances of one's work is likewise 

best wishes

David P

In a heavy week of tuning today I had a client willing to hold the camera. For those who want to claim strike-sustain differences on a well tuned piano there are lots of sound samples here to analyse and the inadequacy of all mobile apps and Fast Fourier Transform technology is visible. As you listen to the video follow along with your own app and see if it can keep up with a pro ETD industry standard in Europe. It's apparent that there is no strike sustain pitch difference. Piano tuning with ETD or mobile phone app
Piano tuning with ETD or mobile phone app

In my opinion it's unprofessional to turn up to tune with a mobile phone as one's tool and none of the app software is fit for purpose as demonstrated in the video. A mobile phone app says to the client that they can do what you do if they get the app so in any event it's not good for the profession 

Following on from the large noise recently about strike/sustain tuning, it can be seen here that either it is pseudo science or that one should tune for both. Pianos tuned in the past days without strike sustain pitch difference include Steinway x2, Yamaha, Bluthner, Toyo and for good measure a crap Esty baby

None gave strike sustain frequency change of any consequence - phase change but not pitch change.

Likewise a soundboard will resonate only at the frequency it is driven at. Put a pitchfork on an unloaded soundboard and wherever you put it the frequency of the fork won't vary. When loaded with resonating strings the only allow frequencies will be those of the strings as they are the only allowed modes of vibration

If the string frequencies are randomised with harmonics all over the place then the instrument won't resonate but overall the vibrating frequency driving the soundboard will be driven across the whole vibrating system. A microphone will pick up that overriding frequency wherever it is placed and the only factor will be the signal over the noise of any local strings. Accordingly any talk of eigenmodes affecting "proper" microphone siting is pseudoscience.

A pick-up device is not needed for microscopic frequency examination in any practical tuning situation. A non-tuner won't understand this and a novice might experience some spurious apparent effects that those of us tuning for years just intuitively overcome.

Someone who does understand tuning the instrument for resonance won't understand the way in which harmonics and scale notes interact and thereby how the soundboard loading can be manipulated to make a Yamaha sound like a Bosendorfer

If of interest I'll upload a couple of videos of tuning the central three octaves of Toyo and the Esty which can give an idea of how a pro ETD machine can respond, providing alternate methods of tuning unisons and other issues way beyond the utility of an app on a phone.

Feeling my way on the instruments whilst recording the videos I was indecisive so no doubt boring on initial notes but returning to voice a C3 today which I'd tuned in about 45 mins I realised that when pushed I tune unisons by individual strings by machine or two strings by ear if clear and quicker and then return to test all notes for any which aren't clear. One often makes inuitive decisions which one doesn't even know how to explain so any video I might do isn't at all definitive of any standard methodology I use. Every instrument is different and the circumstances of one's work is likewise 

best wishes

David P

------------------------------
David Pinnegar BSc ARCS
Hammerwood Park, East Grinstead, Sussex, UK
+44 1342 850594
"High Definition" Tuning
------------------------------

In a heavy week of tuning today I had a client willing to hold the camera. For those who want to claim strike-sustain differences on a well tuned piano there are lots of sound samples here to analyse and the inadequacy of all mobile apps and Fast Fourier Transform technology is visible. As you listen to the video follow along with your own app and see if it can keep up with a pro ETD industry standard in Europe. It's apparent that there is no strike sustain pitch difference. Piano tuning with ETD or mobile phone app
Piano tuning with ETD or mobile phone app

In my opinion it's unprofessional to turn up to tune with a mobile phone as one's tool and none of the app software is fit for purpose as demonstrated in the video. A mobile phone app says to the client that they can do what you do if they get the app so in any event it's not good for the profession 

Following on from the large noise recently about strike/sustain tuning, it can be seen here that either it is pseudo science or that one should tune for both. Pianos tuned in the past days without strike sustain pitch difference include Steinway x2, Yamaha, Bluthner, Toyo and for good measure a crap Esty baby

None gave strike sustain frequency change of any consequence - phase change but not pitch change.

Likewise a soundboard will resonate only at the frequency it is driven at. Put a pitchfork on an unloaded soundboard and wherever you put it the frequency of the fork won't vary. When loaded with resonating strings the only allow frequencies will be those of the strings as they are the only allowed modes of vibration

If the string frequencies are randomised with harmonics all over the place then the instrument won't resonate but overall the vibrating frequency driving the soundboard will be driven across the whole vibrating system. A microphone will pick up that overriding frequency wherever it is placed and the only factor will be the signal over the noise of any local strings. Accordingly any talk of eigenmodes affecting "proper" microphone siting is pseudoscience.

A pick-up device is not needed for microscopic frequency examination in any practical tuning situation. A non-tuner won't understand this and a novice might experience some spurious apparent effects that those of us tuning for years just intuitively overcome.

Someone who does understand tuning the instrument for resonance won't understand the way in which harmonics and scale notes interact and thereby how the soundboard loading can be manipulated to make a Yamaha sound like a Bosendorfer

If of interest I'll upload a couple of videos of tuning the central three octaves of Toyo and the Esty which can give an idea of how a pro ETD machine can respond, providing alternate methods of tuning unisons and other issues way beyond the utility of an app on a phone.

Feeling my way on the instruments whilst recording the videos I was indecisive so no doubt boring on initial notes but returning to voice a C3 today which I'd tuned in about 45 mins I realised that when pushed I tune unisons by individual strings by machine or two strings by ear if clear and quicker and then return to test all notes for any which aren't clear. One often makes inuitive decisions which one doesn't even know how to explain so any video I might do isn't at all definitive of any standard methodology I use. Every instrument is different and the circumstances of one's work is likewise 

best wishes

David P

Hi David

I've often read with interest over the decades about the preferences techs have around the world. Can you tell me a little more about how you use that "TLA" tuner? Does it calculate an entire tuning based on measurements from the piano? Do you use it primarily for direct reference or setting just some of the pitches?

Here around Chicago, there seems to be more respect of newer technology. In fact I think if you brought that hardware into a house around here they might think "what is that guy doing with that old tech?" I'm able to text graphs of starting pitches before tuning to my clients from my mobile phone app -which often brings up the humidity control discussion way more often that telling them that the piano was so much sharp or flat.

Ron Koval 

In a heavy week of tuning today I had a client willing to hold the camera. For those who want to claim strike-sustain differences on a well tuned piano there are lots of sound samples here to analyse and the inadequacy of all mobile apps and Fast Fourier Transform technology is visible. As you listen to the video follow along with your own app and see if it can keep up with a pro ETD industry standard in Europe. It's apparent that there is no strike sustain pitch difference. Piano tuning with ETD or mobile phone app
Piano tuning with ETD or mobile phone app

In my opinion it's unprofessional to turn up to tune with a mobile phone as one's tool and none of the app software is fit for purpose as demonstrated in the video. A mobile phone app says to the client that they can do what you do if they get the app so in any event it's not good for the profession 

Following on from the large noise recently about strike/sustain tuning, it can be seen here that either it is pseudo science or that one should tune for both. Pianos tuned in the past days without strike sustain pitch difference include Steinway x2, Yamaha, Bluthner, Toyo and for good measure a crap Esty baby

None gave strike sustain frequency change of any consequence - phase change but not pitch change.

Likewise a soundboard will resonate only at the frequency it is driven at. Put a pitchfork on an unloaded soundboard and wherever you put it the frequency of the fork won't vary. When loaded with resonating strings the only allow frequencies will be those of the strings as they are the only allowed modes of vibration

If the string frequencies are randomised with harmonics all over the place then the instrument won't resonate but overall the vibrating frequency driving the soundboard will be driven across the whole vibrating system. A microphone will pick up that overriding frequency wherever it is placed and the only factor will be the signal over the noise of any local strings. Accordingly any talk of eigenmodes affecting "proper" microphone siting is pseudoscience.

A pick-up device is not needed for microscopic frequency examination in any practical tuning situation. A non-tuner won't understand this and a novice might experience some spurious apparent effects that those of us tuning for years just intuitively overcome.

Someone who does understand tuning the instrument for resonance won't understand the way in which harmonics and scale notes interact and thereby how the soundboard loading can be manipulated to make a Yamaha sound like a Bosendorfer

If of interest I'll upload a couple of videos of tuning the central three octaves of Toyo and the Esty which can give an idea of how a pro ETD machine can respond, providing alternate methods of tuning unisons and other issues way beyond the utility of an app on a phone.

Feeling my way on the instruments whilst recording the videos I was indecisive so no doubt boring on initial notes but returning to voice a C3 today which I'd tuned in about 45 mins I realised that when pushed I tune unisons by individual strings by machine or two strings by ear if clear and quicker and then return to test all notes for any which aren't clear. One often makes inuitive decisions which one doesn't even know how to explain so any video I might do isn't at all definitive of any standard methodology I use. Every instrument is different and the circumstances of one's work is likewise 

best wishes

David P

Ron - yes - good points on many fronts.

I use the device in a multiplicity of ways and not always the same. Versatility is the delight. 

Sometimes to set the scale, sometimes to go through whole sections of the instrument, sometimes to nail unisons if more accurate than ears which can happen with some instruments and at speed.

With regard to calculating Railsback, in my opinion we're too hide-bound by it and actually I have difficulty getting Railsback based apps to do what I want them to do and get them to listen to what I want them to listen to. They're too automated. I'm specifically using the CTS5 to listen to what I want it to listen to in the way I want it to listen, and will often set it to manual note choice and get it to listen to a particular harmonic I want it to pick out. In this way the Railsback measurement stretch becomes redundant and devices that incorporate that automation get in the way rather than help.

However, I am taking an approach to tuning that's rather different to that usually practised and the results can be startling. I hate uprights but the other day was armtwisted to dealing with Ballet School workhorses one of which was Yamaha C108. When I'd finished and the Director came in to play, the little instrument sounded extraordinarily bigger.

In September I'm going to be tuning for a concert in an ancient amphitheatre

with access to difficult for a Model B. Small baby Yamaha - no problem. I'm using resonance for the instrument to amplify its size and volume.

For this reason my specific requirements for an ETD will vary from many people's norms

Best wishes

David P

Hi David

I've often read with interest over the decades about the preferences techs have around the world. Can you tell me a little more about how you use that "TLA" tuner? Does it calculate an entire tuning based on measurements from the piano? Do you use it primarily for direct reference or setting just some of the pitches?

Here around Chicago, there seems to be more respect of newer technology. In fact I think if you brought that hardware into a house around here they might think "what is that guy doing with that old tech?" I'm able to text graphs of starting pitches before tuning to my clients from my mobile phone app -which often brings up the humidity control discussion way more often that telling them that the piano was so much sharp or flat.

Ron Koval 

In a heavy week of tuning today I had a client willing to hold the camera. For those who want to claim strike-sustain differences on a well tuned piano there are lots of sound samples here to analyse and the inadequacy of all mobile apps and Fast Fourier Transform technology is visible. As you listen to the video follow along with your own app and see if it can keep up with a pro ETD industry standard in Europe. It's apparent that there is no strike sustain pitch difference. Piano tuning with ETD or mobile phone app
Piano tuning with ETD or mobile phone app

In my opinion it's unprofessional to turn up to tune with a mobile phone as one's tool and none of the app software is fit for purpose as demonstrated in the video. A mobile phone app says to the client that they can do what you do if they get the app so in any event it's not good for the profession 

Following on from the large noise recently about strike/sustain tuning, it can be seen here that either it is pseudo science or that one should tune for both. Pianos tuned in the past days without strike sustain pitch difference include Steinway x2, Yamaha, Bluthner, Toyo and for good measure a crap Esty baby

None gave strike sustain frequency change of any consequence - phase change but not pitch change.

Likewise a soundboard will resonate only at the frequency it is driven at. Put a pitchfork on an unloaded soundboard and wherever you put it the frequency of the fork won't vary. When loaded with resonating strings the only allow frequencies will be those of the strings as they are the only allowed modes of vibration

If the string frequencies are randomised with harmonics all over the place then the instrument won't resonate but overall the vibrating frequency driving the soundboard will be driven across the whole vibrating system. A microphone will pick up that overriding frequency wherever it is placed and the only factor will be the signal over the noise of any local strings. Accordingly any talk of eigenmodes affecting "proper" microphone siting is pseudoscience.

A pick-up device is not needed for microscopic frequency examination in any practical tuning situation. A non-tuner won't understand this and a novice might experience some spurious apparent effects that those of us tuning for years just intuitively overcome.

Someone who does understand tuning the instrument for resonance won't understand the way in which harmonics and scale notes interact and thereby how the soundboard loading can be manipulated to make a Yamaha sound like a Bosendorfer

If of interest I'll upload a couple of videos of tuning the central three octaves of Toyo and the Esty which can give an idea of how a pro ETD machine can respond, providing alternate methods of tuning unisons and other issues way beyond the utility of an app on a phone.

Feeling my way on the instruments whilst recording the videos I was indecisive so no doubt boring on initial notes but returning to voice a C3 today which I'd tuned in about 45 mins I realised that when pushed I tune unisons by individual strings by machine or two strings by ear if clear and quicker and then return to test all notes for any which aren't clear. One often makes inuitive decisions which one doesn't even know how to explain so any video I might do isn't at all definitive of any standard methodology I use. Every instrument is different and the circumstances of one's work is likewise 

best wishes

David P