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Kranich and Bach jacks

  • 1.  Kranich and Bach jacks

    Posted 06-17-2025 07:51
      |   view attached

    Good morning all. 

    Does anyone have an idea where I can source jacks for a kranich and bach grand?  I thought I had a replacement with some jacks off an old Weber, but they do not have the extra material on the base (to connect it to the jack return spring), so I can't retrofit it.

    Thanks!

    Patrick



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    Patrick Greene
    OWNER
    Knoxville TN
    (865) 384-6582
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  • 2.  RE: Kranich and Bach jacks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-17-2025 09:02
    Time to start robbing Peter to pay Paul. (Take 1, 2, 87, 88 to replace the middle)



    Original Message


  • 3.  RE: Kranich and Bach jacks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-17-2025 12:15

    I'm wondering whether it was Kranich or Bach that was the creative engineer behind this whippen. I like the "skyhook" balancier spring, fancy; and the jack regulating screw looks much easier to regulate than the standard issue.



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    Steven Rosenthal RPT
    Honolulu HI
    (808) 521-7129
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: Kranich and Bach jacks

    Posted 06-17-2025 17:33

    Somebody already did this.  Might have to do rob 4, 5, 6 and 84, 85 and 86.  I wonder if I could retrofit some other old whippens to make them work?

    Edit number 3.  stevespianoservice.com had them at one time.  This particular jack is 1" from the hole to the end of the jack arm.  Steve still has the 1 3/16" long arm.  Do you think I could make that work?  It would poke out a bit in the front...



    ------------------------------
    Patrick Greene
    OWNER
    Knoxville TN
    (865) 384-6582
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 5.  RE: Kranich and Bach jacks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-17-2025 17:53
    The other option is to tell the customer that parts are no longer available and to start looking for another piano. 



    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: Kranich and Bach jacks

    Posted 06-17-2025 17:56

    Get out your two wippen kits find the closest match and install new wippens. Stop the snowball by at least having reliable wippens. You most likely will have to make new heels, keep the original flanges and you may even have trim the front of the rep lever. Verify it on an action model. Thats how i have retrofitted some of these odd designs.

    I know, i know they dont want to put that kind of money in it.

    -chris

    (p.s. the image is from wikipedia under shrug.



    ------------------------------
    Chernobieff Piano Restorations

    Inertia Touch Wave(ITW) The most advanced silky smooth actions.

    Engineered Hygroscopic Soundboards. The strongest and lightest boards made today for acoustic projection, richness and warmth.

    865-986-7720 (text only please)
    ------------------------------

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  • 7.  RE: Kranich and Bach jacks

    Posted 06-17-2025 18:15

    Chris!!!

    Thank you for the idea.

    I have an old Knabe action and the jack on that is similar to the Chronic (what I call it) jack.    And yes, this is a little start up church with limited funds..



    ------------------------------
    Patrick Greene
    OWNER
    Knoxville TN
    (865) 384-6582
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: Kranich and Bach jacks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-17-2025 19:22
    A long, long time ago, when I first got into this business, before I knew the problems with K&B pianos, I bought one and rebuilt it. I wound up selling it to a church. Within a month they complained about notes not working. I wound up replacing all the wippens at my expense, when they were still available at Schaff. 

    The bottom line is, instead of spending a lot of time, (and money), retrofitting other wipps, it would be better to talk to the church that it will be cheaper in the long run to put that money towards another piano.





    Original Message


  • 9.  RE: Kranich and Bach jacks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-17-2025 19:39

    I have seen Kawai whippens adapted to this purpose. They worked well enough (with some TLC).

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 10.  RE: Kranich and Bach jacks

    Posted 06-18-2025 06:48

    I found someone who has 90 of them for sale on Ebay, but the jack toe looks to be 1 3/16" versus the 1" that I need.  Do you all think this would still work?



    ------------------------------
    Patrick Greene
    OWNER
    Knoxville TN
    (865) 384-6582
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: Kranich and Bach jacks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-18-2025 06:55
    Not without changing the let off buttons. And even at that, that extra 3/16" might be too long.



    Original Message


  • 12.  RE: Kranich and Bach jacks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-18-2025 08:22

    Does this little startup church have a skilled hobbyist who does 3d print designs?  Stranger things have happened. 



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    Floyd Gadd RPT
    Regina SK
    (306) 502-9103
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    Original Message


  • 13.  RE: Kranich and Bach jacks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-18-2025 09:01

    I am thinking specifically of the jacks. 



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    Floyd Gadd RPT
    Regina SK
    (306) 502-9103
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    Original Message


  • 14.  RE: Kranich and Bach jacks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-18-2025 10:20

    I have a cnc machine.  I primarily use it for piano key refab but with a good picture or an original I could manufacture one.  I don't do this small work normally but it is for a good cause :)   



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    Kenneth Jeffs, RPT, Ph.D.
    Chesterfield, MO United States
    kenneth@jeffspiano.com
    (314) 960-6389
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    Original Message


  • 15.  RE: Kranich and Bach jacks

    Posted 06-18-2025 15:53

    Thank you Kenneth for the offer.  I think I should be able to source some jacks.  I have a rebuilder in town who has a couple of K&B grands in his warehouse.  I am going over there next Thursday to look at them to see if they will work.



    ------------------------------
    Patrick Greene
    OWNER
    Knoxville TN
    (865) 384-6582
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 16.  RE: Kranich and Bach jacks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-18-2025 11:58

    I have a box of these whippens somewhere in my shop. I did a total WNG conversion on this action around 2017 as I refuse to try and work on these actions.

    The whippens I have are 92mm whippen flange center to jack center.

    https://tparsons.com/kranich/kranich_bach.htm



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    Tremaine Parsons RPT
    Georgetown CA
    (530) 333-9299
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 17.  RE: Kranich and Bach jacks

    Posted 06-18-2025 14:53

    Hello Tremaine.  These Whippens are approximately 85mm from whippen flange center to jack center

    Would you sell me some of your whippens so I can cannabalize the jacks?



    ------------------------------
    Patrick Greene
    OWNER
    Knoxville TN
    (865) 384-6582
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 18.  RE: Kranich and Bach jacks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-18-2025 15:50
    FWIW, many years ago I did a rebuild of a Kranich and Bach grand and replaced the whippens with the early Kawai whippen available from Tokiwa.  I believe the jack center to flange center was 90mm.  The only problem was that you had to pre-adjust the jack position before installation, because it was inaccessible after installation.  That's not a real problem though.  Fit perfectly.

    Bill




    Original Message


  • 19.  RE: Kranich and Bach jacks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-18-2025 16:10

    Well, according to my Schaff catalog I believe you are looking for Kranich Short Arm Jacks and mine are Long Arm

    Mine if I can find the box...

    Yours



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    Tremaine Parsons RPT
    Georgetown CA
    (530) 333-9299
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 20.  RE: Kranich and Bach jacks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-18-2025 16:12

    Mine



    ------------------------------
    Tremaine Parsons RPT
    Georgetown CA
    (530) 333-9299
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 21.  RE: Kranich and Bach jacks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-18-2025 16:35
    Tremaine. 

    Apparently, you're looking at the last print catalogue. They are not available anymore on line 



    Original Message


  • 22.  RE: Kranich and Bach jacks

    Posted 06-18-2025 18:29

    There is a piano rebuilder near me who said he has two K&B grands in his warehouse awaiting a rebuild.  He said we can go out there and pull the grand action out and he will sell me some whippens.  I am hoping he has a short arm, but if not, hopefully I can trim 3/16" off to make it work.  I am going to pull the good ones that are left out of the lower bass and upper treble and replace the bad ones with whatever jack I can get hold of.  It will probably be better than a b@sterdized Knabe jack.  

    I apologize for taking up so much bandwidth with this request.  In 37 years of tuning and repair, this is the first K&B I have worked on.



    ------------------------------
    Patrick Greene
    OWNER
    Knoxville TN
    (865) 384-6582
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 23.  RE: Kranich and Bach jacks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-18-2025 22:41

    Well...

    IMO they really knew their stuff when it came to building a solid superstructure (most stable I've ever seen or heard). But whoever was heading up the action department was either a genius or a kook. I don't see that the K&B action performs any better than any other good grand action, and therefore their decision to make it 100% proprietary was a stupid one. (Perhaps the action designer was related to either Kranich or Bach...that might explain it).

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message