The only ETD programmer that I ever recall actually advising tuning unisons solely by the device was OnlyPure. AFAIK, all other ETD makers have always suggested that the final resting place be done aurally.
Although I'm still waiting to receive my unit, I intend to use it from the standpoint of determiming initial accuracy, which would then be subject to my aural tweaking for what I consider to be best under the given circumstances.
The way it is now (since I am primarily aural/analog), my starting point is one of an approximation due to all the other factors at play (which in fact I was not completely and totally aware of [at least consciously] until Steve N. brought them to my attention). So my plan of attack is to start with as accurate information as I can get, and if I feel the need to mess with it, I will. If it sounds good without messing with it then logic dictates that I leave it that way.
As a general rule, .1 cent accuracy is not required in this business, however its nice to know you have it. And if it can be had mostly free of other encumbrances that's another plus.
Original Message:
Sent: 01-07-2024 21:38
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: Microphones
Hi Steven:
I've been using the sensor for several months, and your question is, does it take extra time to deal with the sensor? It takes maybe 2 minutes to hook up the sensor and preamp. Moving the sensor takes no more time that it took to switch notes on the Accutuner without a foot switch. It does take me longer than it used to because it takes a bit more effort to get more accuracy. Moving the sensor takes as much time as moving a mute. When doing pitch raises, I'll often just use the mic to speed up the process. But when you are comparing the tuning experience using a mic vs the sensor, you get a better result most often with the sensor. I recently had an experience tuning a Mason Hamlin studio upright. Using the mic to tune one note in the treble, i used the built-in mic just to see how it worked on that note. I put my Iphone above the note, and tuned it to my machine. Then I moved it about a foot towards the bass. It went from being sharp to flat by at least a cent. Then I plugged in the sensor. It was just slightly sharp. You might have seen the same thing, if you use an ETD. The algorithms that make the ETD work are affected by the ambient sound if using a mic. The only way to tune your way out of this problem is to check the tuning by ear, which position is best for your ETD. I had the same problem with my Accutuner. I'd tune upper treble notes, only to check later and they were sharp. Not all but many. I believe this phenomenon is the reason many tuners insist that they make final aural checks of their ETD tunings. There are many tuners also who will dampen the aliquats and other string sections behind the bridges, as well as all the undamped wires above the damper section. This helps when doing aural tuning of course. Steve has done extensive testing with his piano on this. He was getting errors using the mics because there are some very loud resonances from aliquats in his piano, and they were affecting the tuning. He has eliminated that problem with the sensor. The sensor makes it easier to tune, even if you tune by ear. An aural tuner purchased the sensor to be able to hear the pristine sound of the string free from any ambient sound.
One question I have, on a slightly different topic, is about voicing. This is done to smooth out the tone and power of the piano across the whole instrument. We always advise to tune the piano first before doing voicing. But there are choices to be made, and mating, leveling, needling, etc., to affect the tone of the piano. I believe that the partial display can help with that, but I believe one has to listen and make judgments aurally. That's where I think we can agree that our ears are the final arbiter, and that is by nature subjective. If you've had the unfortunate experience of voicing without the owner present, you know that you might make decisions that suit your ear, but not the owner. Been there.. lol!
Thank you for your feedback. It's all good.
------------------------------
Paul McCloud, RPT
Accutone Piano Service
www.AccutonePianoService.com
pavadasa@gmail.com
Original Message:
Sent: 01-07-2024 20:58
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: Microphones
Steven, I tried to allow for what you are saying and didn't draw any final conclusions.
I respect your point of view as an engineer, but what we are doing is in service to music and musicality which is, as you know being a pianist, is very much about subjectivity.
As to how much time this may add I surely couldn't know, but it certainly will add to the physical movements. How many vertical pianos have you tuned with the device, how many pitch raises. Tuning a high end concert grand that's already in good tuning is one thing, comparative lab conditions, but working in the field on a variety of pianos is something else. The fact that this sensor removes non piano ambient noise as a problem is great in and of itself.
Maybe there's been a lot of field testing and perhaps these concerns are not a big deal. But I do believe they are considerations.
I wish you the best and hope this is a boon to us all.
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Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129
Original Message:
Sent: 01-07-2024 20:22
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: Microphones
Steven, your 'individual judements' are just that: subjective and variant. I have not had one person say that tuning with this sensor it in any way detracts from musical results, quite the contrary, as a pro musician myself, the sound is far more 'clear' and there is more power on the attack because the unisons are in phase and in frequency lined up so the amplitude on the attack is higher. Your 'final voicing' is highly subjective to where you are sitting while voicing. I had (one of the biggest names in piano tech) voicing my Fazioli and we moved our head a foot to the left and then to the right and the sound was SO different. The overtone spectra shows what our ears hear. This the plight of well known recording studio mic-ing of a piano. So the piano tuners are generally not pro recording engineers and may just not be aware of it. I turn subjectivity into objectivity. There is only UPSIDE, no downside.
Look at my explanation on why we get 'frequency' errors when we move the mics. It is totally rational. Based on the signal to noise ratio and how FFT's work in reality. A very well known phenomenon in signal processing. I have to become the Professor to teach this to the piano tuning world. I love teaching and it is fun to boil down highly technical problems that are 'mysterious' to most and get to the root of the problem. This I have done.
It takes 1 or 2 seconds to move the sensor from one triplet to the next. No issue. The time the sensor saves by NOT having to ear-match unisons is the ticket. It is a plus, not a minus.
Best,
Steve
Steven Norsworthy
Original Message:
Sent: 1/7/2024 8:11:00 PM
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: RE: Microphones
This is not meant to refute the assertions made about the pianosens device, we will see how it pans out in practice.
But two questions that come to my mind as a professional tuner are these:
All of the acoustic effects of the soundboard etc.that skew the actual signal of the string are what makes a piano sound like a piano, both in general and each individual instrument. This is the character of a piano.
In setting the frequency of each note including the unisons, the tuner is making judgements as to what sounds best, or most musical, relative to the entire compass of the piano. In effect, the tuning is the final voicing of the instrument. In this context, how much does it matter whether it conforms to the pure frequencies of a given string divorced from the transmission through the soundboard? Perhaps hewing to the original signal of the wire is best, perhaps not; Geoff points out one of many issues we run into as we're tuning a piano that requires some type of judgement and variation. Muddy as the mic signal may be, it is closer in many respects to what we are hearing when music is being played on the instrument; the final test. Or maybe these anomalies just confuse the ETD or our ears when using aural checks.
One thing the pianosens does is give us a way of comparing the original signal with that filtered by the bridge/soundboard transmission system.
The second issue is on a practical level in that the device adds another physical movement to each note, a single pass with no checking adds 88 movements and as we know, this adds up over the course of a day's work. The demonstration videos show strings that start out within a cent or so of the target so actual movement of the tuning pins is negligible, but in practice most field tunings involve moving the strings more than 2.5 cents and far beyond that, this necessitates moving the tuning pins and going back and rechecking/retuning strings as we go. This will add even more additional hand movements as we survey our work and make further adjustments. Tuning 3 or more instruments a day will add up to many hundreds of movements, it breaks the flow of tuning, etc. So that is something worth noting as well.
All this gives food for thought. Much to be learned here.
------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129
Original Message:
Sent: 01-07-2024 19:00
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: Microphones
Steven, yes, thank you.
------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129
Original Message:
Sent: 01-07-2024 16:03
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: Microphones
Steven,
I have not 'disclosed' the details of the sensor, but it a Faraday-type sensor, but unlike guitar pickups.
It solves many prior art problems with electromagnetic induction sensors.It has no detective pulling effect on the string, it has over 100 dB of EMI shielding, it has over 130 dB of dynamic range, greater than the range of the 24 bit ADC in the interface unit, it has a flat frequency response from 0 - 25 kHz. It was designed my myself and a colleague with a PhD in electromagnetics! It is produced in the lab of a company who is ITAR and ISO certified.
Does that spike your curiosity?
Steven Norsworthy
Original Message:
Sent: 1/7/2024 3:53:00 PM
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: RE: Microphones
Steven, by "discussion" I take it you mean the videos on your site.
My question was, what kind of sensor are you employing? Electromagnetic, infra red? If you say on your site, I missed it.
Thanks.
------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129
Original Message:
Sent: 01-07-2024 13:54
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: Microphones
Steven, I assume now from your reply you have not been following all the discussion on PianoSens.com device, a newly engineered electronic sensor specifically designed for piano tuning, solving many issues from the prior art.
Best regards,
Steven Norsworthy
PianoSens.com
------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101
Original Message:
Sent: 01-07-2024 04:15
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: Microphones
Sensor is a generic term. What are you talking about specifically?
------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129
Original Message:
Sent: 01-07-2024 03:19
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: Microphones
Guys, I have 4 Neumann TLM 170's at $3500 each, and 3 Neumann KM 183's at $900 each. I have a Universal Apollo 8 channel mixer with 24 bit ADC's and -130 dB Preamps. I have been through this, using all over the piano with the app. IT MAKES DO DIFFERENCE with a tuning app. There is 1 cent variance from physical position to position. The sensor has 0.1 cent variance. It is an order of magnitude. I have a 10'2" Fazioli F308. Fazioli company did a paper in 2017 with 20 contact mics all over the sound board. Every position has a different acoustic transfer function. For tuning, the mic does not matter, they all have huge variance because there are acoustic nodes and anti-nodes all over the place and you cannot predict where they are. Use a sensor.
------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
Cardiff By The Sea CA
(619) 964-0101
Original Message:
Sent: 01-07-2024 01:43
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: Microphones
Give me your address and I will send it to you and you can do it.
------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 390-0512
Original Message:
Sent: 01-07-2024 01:06
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Microphones
From the Amazon listing for this mic...
"To reproduce clear and consistent sound, there embeds noise filter and cancellation chip inside the microphone for iPhone video recording."
Who knows what kind of games this mic is playing with the sound from close micing a piano?
Find yourself a free spectrum analyzer app for your phone and compare the difference between this mic and the built in mic on your phone. I'll bet there will be much strangeness between the two. I'm curious to know so please post back.
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Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
Original Message:
Sent: 01-05-2024 23:20
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: Microphones
A recent thread was touting the wonders of a new pickup for ETD tuning that solves all problems and hears the worst notes perfectly.
I decided to experiment. I found the microphone below (only $7.95!) and today I tested it on a nice Kawai grand.
Without the mic the pitch was A 439.2, with the mic my iRCT indicated that the pitch was G# 4.
Good idea... Didn't work.
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Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 390-0512
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