Pianotech

On Facebook I jokingly placed a video indicating my frustration with pianists who'd come along playing with amplified double bass, drums and cymbals and bashed a concert instrument to pieces. Campaign against violence against concert pianos

A couple of days before I'd tuned the instrument to perfection and in July had voiced it nicely. Now many of the hammers are hard and would benefit from revoicing and another instrument locally had been available to a student to practice on for two months putting that Steinway totally out of tune and regulation. 

Commentators on Facebook kindly told me that I didn't know how to tune stable unisons ;-)

I wouldn't be achieving the reputation that I have

Kawai Baby Grand Piano in Unequal Temperament heaven

Testing a Yamaha C3 piano in unequal temperament for an outside amphitheatre performance

Chopin at Sonnenlink Festival, Mani, Greece in Unequal Temperament

were I to be that naïve about stability and unisons - but perhaps I don't know what I'm doing ;-)

Whilst tuning recently I've been doing videos documenting techniques both for encouragement of newbies and advice to some of my clients about touching up a tuning to maintain it for longer and from which in due course I'll happily accept criticism. I've documented instruments which I haven't been able to revisit over a three to ten year period whilst remaining substantially in tune, so I must have been doing something right in all these years.

I have a pupil to whom I'm teaching basics and Tuning a unison in a beginning piano tuning tutorial

 is a short lesson. Yes - I'm not being as critical as I might be because she's very much a beginner but from this perhaps anyone can see what I might be missing in my own technique.

So to the Steinway. . . . 

I was called in because it had problems. A little while ago I posted asking whether it was sacrilege to use CA . . . 

Over the past fortnight I've been able to get to know the instrument. I don't like making an instant diagnosis of something which might be complicated.

Apologies for the somewhat wiggly panorama of the wrest pins.

Perhaps one can see that this instrument has had a history. The more recent history before I came along was dots in permanent marker, black tape, and hitting the pins further into the block in the top two octaves. Apparently the instrument couldn't hold tune for the second half of a concert.

Identifying looser pins I've put felt washers on any such pins so as to monitor its behaviour. It's served daily concerts and to the standard audible in 

Rachmaninoff Sonata No.2 Op.36 in unequal temperament

but on a daily basis I've had to touch up the tuning.

Slipped notes didn't correlate with the looser pins other than today in the treble where one note was afflicted by looseness on all three pins.

Tuning presents challenges. Please forgive me for explaining my perspective on stability but it might indicate if there's fault in my perception or whether there's something which is more the fault of the instrument or its environment. I'm not the first to have been experiencing lack of perfection with the results from this instrument.

In my view there are three types of tuning pin and string variability, requiring different techniques

1. looser pins, sometimes requiring a feather touch to avoid them jumping loose, but often providing precision control over the string and pitch. The pins are loose enough for the pressure applied to the tuning lever to be nearly entirely rotational without any horizontal wobble effect of the pins as one turns the lever from any angle
2. very tight pins where horizontal wobble forces from the lever can be more significant than rotational effect applied by the lever. Setting the pin becomes important. 12 o'clock lever position can be helpful causing left-right wobble not affecting pitch but less feel to the stability of the string. I prefer 10 or quarter past position so that I can lift pitch a half beat or so higher than required and let the string tension pull on the pin to set it where it wants to be.
3. jumpy strings where smoothness isn't possible and pitch changes in quantum leaps.

This instrument provides examples of all three behaviours and to some extent combinations in between. The knocking in of the treble pins has brought the coils down to the level of the plate so the instrument is suffering from what we might perceive to be inexpert attention in the past.

The concert hall Director is proposing to get a Steinway technician in from the capital city three hours away or further afield. This could be significantly expensive and I'm always humbled and impressed when meeting up with such expertise and could be ultimately good value. On the other hand advice might possibly not be very much different other than a rebuild.

However over the past fortnight I've proved that we can live with the instrument provided unisons are touched up before a concert and that it's potentially a good deal better than formerly it had been thought to have been. 

In the first instance I'm proposing to apply CA treatment on pins identified as being on the loose side and Protek Prolube on the bearing felts and or agraffes, and then monitor behaviour to see if tuning can be more reliable and predictable.

Any opinions, criticisms and thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Best wishes

David P 

On Facebook I jokingly placed a video indicating my frustration with pianists who'd come along playing with amplified double bass, drums and cymbals and bashed a concert instrument to pieces. Campaign against violence against concert pianos

A couple of days before I'd tuned the instrument to perfection and in July had voiced it nicely. Now many of the hammers are hard and would benefit from revoicing and another instrument locally had been available to a student to practice on for two months putting that Steinway totally out of tune and regulation. 

Commentators on Facebook kindly told me that I didn't know how to tune stable unisons ;-)

I wouldn't be achieving the reputation that I have

Kawai Baby Grand Piano in Unequal Temperament heaven

Testing a Yamaha C3 piano in unequal temperament for an outside amphitheatre performance

Chopin at Sonnenlink Festival, Mani, Greece in Unequal Temperament

were I to be that naïve about stability and unisons - but perhaps I don't know what I'm doing ;-)

Whilst tuning recently I've been doing videos documenting techniques both for encouragement of newbies and advice to some of my clients about touching up a tuning to maintain it for longer and from which in due course I'll happily accept criticism. I've documented instruments which I haven't been able to revisit over a three to ten year period whilst remaining substantially in tune, so I must have been doing something right in all these years.

I have a pupil to whom I'm teaching basics and Tuning a unison in a beginning piano tuning tutorial

 is a short lesson. Yes - I'm not being as critical as I might be because she's very much a beginner but from this perhaps anyone can see what I might be missing in my own technique.

So to the Steinway. . . . 

I was called in because it had problems. A little while ago I posted asking whether it was sacrilege to use CA . . . 

Over the past fortnight I've been able to get to know the instrument. I don't like making an instant diagnosis of something which might be complicated.

Apologies for the somewhat wiggly panorama of the wrest pins.

Perhaps one can see that this instrument has had a history. The more recent history before I came along was dots in permanent marker, black tape, and hitting the pins further into the block in the top two octaves. Apparently the instrument couldn't hold tune for the second half of a concert.

Identifying looser pins I've put felt washers on any such pins so as to monitor its behaviour. It's served daily concerts and to the standard audible in 

Rachmaninoff Sonata No.2 Op.36 in unequal temperament

but on a daily basis I've had to touch up the tuning.

Slipped notes didn't correlate with the looser pins other than today in the treble where one note was afflicted by looseness on all three pins.

Tuning presents challenges. Please forgive me for explaining my perspective on stability but it might indicate if there's fault in my perception or whether there's something which is more the fault of the instrument or its environment. I'm not the first to have been experiencing lack of perfection with the results from this instrument.

In my view there are three types of tuning pin and string variability, requiring different techniques

1. looser pins, sometimes requiring a feather touch to avoid them jumping loose, but often providing precision control over the string and pitch. The pins are loose enough for the pressure applied to the tuning lever to be nearly entirely rotational without any horizontal wobble effect of the pins as one turns the lever from any angle
2. very tight pins where horizontal wobble forces from the lever can be more significant than rotational effect applied by the lever. Setting the pin becomes important. 12 o'clock lever position can be helpful causing left-right wobble not affecting pitch but less feel to the stability of the string. I prefer 10 or quarter past position so that I can lift pitch a half beat or so higher than required and let the string tension pull on the pin to set it where it wants to be.
3. jumpy strings where smoothness isn't possible and pitch changes in quantum leaps.

This instrument provides examples of all three behaviours and to some extent combinations in between. The knocking in of the treble pins has brought the coils down to the level of the plate so the instrument is suffering from what we might perceive to be inexpert attention in the past.

The concert hall Director is proposing to get a Steinway technician in from the capital city three hours away or further afield. This could be significantly expensive and I'm always humbled and impressed when meeting up with such expertise and could be ultimately good value. On the other hand advice might possibly not be very much different other than a rebuild.

However over the past fortnight I've proved that we can live with the instrument provided unisons are touched up before a concert and that it's potentially a good deal better than formerly it had been thought to have been. 

In the first instance I'm proposing to apply CA treatment on pins identified as being on the loose side and Protek Prolube on the bearing felts and or agraffes, and then monitor behaviour to see if tuning can be more reliable and predictable.

Any opinions, criticisms and thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Best wishes

David P 

"Pianist who bang piano out of tune"     this is horrifying!  https://www.instagram.com/jazzmemes_/reel/C8RuNjDxMAf/

On Facebook I jokingly placed a video indicating my frustration with pianists who'd come along playing with amplified double bass, drums and cymbals and bashed a concert instrument to pieces. Campaign against violence against concert pianos

A couple of days before I'd tuned the instrument to perfection and in July had voiced it nicely. Now many of the hammers are hard and would benefit from revoicing and another instrument locally had been available to a student to practice on for two months putting that Steinway totally out of tune and regulation. 

Commentators on Facebook kindly told me that I didn't know how to tune stable unisons ;-)

I wouldn't be achieving the reputation that I have

Kawai Baby Grand Piano in Unequal Temperament heaven

Testing a Yamaha C3 piano in unequal temperament for an outside amphitheatre performance

Chopin at Sonnenlink Festival, Mani, Greece in Unequal Temperament

were I to be that naïve about stability and unisons - but perhaps I don't know what I'm doing ;-)

Whilst tuning recently I've been doing videos documenting techniques both for encouragement of newbies and advice to some of my clients about touching up a tuning to maintain it for longer and from which in due course I'll happily accept criticism. I've documented instruments which I haven't been able to revisit over a three to ten year period whilst remaining substantially in tune, so I must have been doing something right in all these years.

I have a pupil to whom I'm teaching basics and Tuning a unison in a beginning piano tuning tutorial

 is a short lesson. Yes - I'm not being as critical as I might be because she's very much a beginner but from this perhaps anyone can see what I might be missing in my own technique.

So to the Steinway. . . . 

I was called in because it had problems. A little while ago I posted asking whether it was sacrilege to use CA . . . 

Over the past fortnight I've been able to get to know the instrument. I don't like making an instant diagnosis of something which might be complicated.

Apologies for the somewhat wiggly panorama of the wrest pins.

Perhaps one can see that this instrument has had a history. The more recent history before I came along was dots in permanent marker, black tape, and hitting the pins further into the block in the top two octaves. Apparently the instrument couldn't hold tune for the second half of a concert.

Identifying looser pins I've put felt washers on any such pins so as to monitor its behaviour. It's served daily concerts and to the standard audible in 

Rachmaninoff Sonata No.2 Op.36 in unequal temperament

but on a daily basis I've had to touch up the tuning.

Slipped notes didn't correlate with the looser pins other than today in the treble where one note was afflicted by looseness on all three pins.

Tuning presents challenges. Please forgive me for explaining my perspective on stability but it might indicate if there's fault in my perception or whether there's something which is more the fault of the instrument or its environment. I'm not the first to have been experiencing lack of perfection with the results from this instrument.

In my view there are three types of tuning pin and string variability, requiring different techniques

1. looser pins, sometimes requiring a feather touch to avoid them jumping loose, but often providing precision control over the string and pitch. The pins are loose enough for the pressure applied to the tuning lever to be nearly entirely rotational without any horizontal wobble effect of the pins as one turns the lever from any angle
2. very tight pins where horizontal wobble forces from the lever can be more significant than rotational effect applied by the lever. Setting the pin becomes important. 12 o'clock lever position can be helpful causing left-right wobble not affecting pitch but less feel to the stability of the string. I prefer 10 or quarter past position so that I can lift pitch a half beat or so higher than required and let the string tension pull on the pin to set it where it wants to be.
3. jumpy strings where smoothness isn't possible and pitch changes in quantum leaps.

This instrument provides examples of all three behaviours and to some extent combinations in between. The knocking in of the treble pins has brought the coils down to the level of the plate so the instrument is suffering from what we might perceive to be inexpert attention in the past.

The concert hall Director is proposing to get a Steinway technician in from the capital city three hours away or further afield. This could be significantly expensive and I'm always humbled and impressed when meeting up with such expertise and could be ultimately good value. On the other hand advice might possibly not be very much different other than a rebuild.

However over the past fortnight I've proved that we can live with the instrument provided unisons are touched up before a concert and that it's potentially a good deal better than formerly it had been thought to have been. 

In the first instance I'm proposing to apply CA treatment on pins identified as being on the loose side and Protek Prolube on the bearing felts and or agraffes, and then monitor behaviour to see if tuning can be more reliable and predictable.

Any opinions, criticisms and thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Best wishes

David P 

"Pianist who bang piano out of tune"     this is horrifying!  https://www.instagram.com/jazzmemes_/reel/C8RuNjDxMAf/

On Facebook I jokingly placed a video indicating my frustration with pianists who'd come along playing with amplified double bass, drums and cymbals and bashed a concert instrument to pieces. Campaign against violence against concert pianos

A couple of days before I'd tuned the instrument to perfection and in July had voiced it nicely. Now many of the hammers are hard and would benefit from revoicing and another instrument locally had been available to a student to practice on for two months putting that Steinway totally out of tune and regulation. 

Commentators on Facebook kindly told me that I didn't know how to tune stable unisons ;-)

I wouldn't be achieving the reputation that I have

Kawai Baby Grand Piano in Unequal Temperament heaven

Testing a Yamaha C3 piano in unequal temperament for an outside amphitheatre performance

Chopin at Sonnenlink Festival, Mani, Greece in Unequal Temperament

were I to be that naïve about stability and unisons - but perhaps I don't know what I'm doing ;-)

Whilst tuning recently I've been doing videos documenting techniques both for encouragement of newbies and advice to some of my clients about touching up a tuning to maintain it for longer and from which in due course I'll happily accept criticism. I've documented instruments which I haven't been able to revisit over a three to ten year period whilst remaining substantially in tune, so I must have been doing something right in all these years.

I have a pupil to whom I'm teaching basics and Tuning a unison in a beginning piano tuning tutorial

 is a short lesson. Yes - I'm not being as critical as I might be because she's very much a beginner but from this perhaps anyone can see what I might be missing in my own technique.

So to the Steinway. . . . 

I was called in because it had problems. A little while ago I posted asking whether it was sacrilege to use CA . . . 

Over the past fortnight I've been able to get to know the instrument. I don't like making an instant diagnosis of something which might be complicated.

Apologies for the somewhat wiggly panorama of the wrest pins.

Perhaps one can see that this instrument has had a history. The more recent history before I came along was dots in permanent marker, black tape, and hitting the pins further into the block in the top two octaves. Apparently the instrument couldn't hold tune for the second half of a concert.

Identifying looser pins I've put felt washers on any such pins so as to monitor its behaviour. It's served daily concerts and to the standard audible in 

Rachmaninoff Sonata No.2 Op.36 in unequal temperament

but on a daily basis I've had to touch up the tuning.

Slipped notes didn't correlate with the looser pins other than today in the treble where one note was afflicted by looseness on all three pins.

Tuning presents challenges. Please forgive me for explaining my perspective on stability but it might indicate if there's fault in my perception or whether there's something which is more the fault of the instrument or its environment. I'm not the first to have been experiencing lack of perfection with the results from this instrument.

In my view there are three types of tuning pin and string variability, requiring different techniques

1. looser pins, sometimes requiring a feather touch to avoid them jumping loose, but often providing precision control over the string and pitch. The pins are loose enough for the pressure applied to the tuning lever to be nearly entirely rotational without any horizontal wobble effect of the pins as one turns the lever from any angle
2. very tight pins where horizontal wobble forces from the lever can be more significant than rotational effect applied by the lever. Setting the pin becomes important. 12 o'clock lever position can be helpful causing left-right wobble not affecting pitch but less feel to the stability of the string. I prefer 10 or quarter past position so that I can lift pitch a half beat or so higher than required and let the string tension pull on the pin to set it where it wants to be.
3. jumpy strings where smoothness isn't possible and pitch changes in quantum leaps.

This instrument provides examples of all three behaviours and to some extent combinations in between. The knocking in of the treble pins has brought the coils down to the level of the plate so the instrument is suffering from what we might perceive to be inexpert attention in the past.

The concert hall Director is proposing to get a Steinway technician in from the capital city three hours away or further afield. This could be significantly expensive and I'm always humbled and impressed when meeting up with such expertise and could be ultimately good value. On the other hand advice might possibly not be very much different other than a rebuild.

However over the past fortnight I've proved that we can live with the instrument provided unisons are touched up before a concert and that it's potentially a good deal better than formerly it had been thought to have been. 

In the first instance I'm proposing to apply CA treatment on pins identified as being on the loose side and Protek Prolube on the bearing felts and or agraffes, and then monitor behaviour to see if tuning can be more reliable and predictable.

Any opinions, criticisms and thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Best wishes

David P 

    "Slipped notes didn't correlate with the looser pins"

    Indeed. Loose pins would sound even worse. The first and last thing I've done is to use a wood wedge and my tuning lever handle to very lightly tap the wires on/near the front/top bearings. I'm not sure loud playing should have that much to do with it. A hammer shank to massage string segments may help you.  Many agree unison stability is key. Prime issue. Unisons should be good enough to tune subsequent intervals.

"Pianist who bang piano out of tune"     this is horrifying!  https://www.instagram.com/jazzmemes_/reel/C8RuNjDxMAf/

On Facebook I jokingly placed a video indicating my frustration with pianists who'd come along playing with amplified double bass, drums and cymbals and bashed a concert instrument to pieces. Campaign against violence against concert pianos

A couple of days before I'd tuned the instrument to perfection and in July had voiced it nicely. Now many of the hammers are hard and would benefit from revoicing and another instrument locally had been available to a student to practice on for two months putting that Steinway totally out of tune and regulation. 

Commentators on Facebook kindly told me that I didn't know how to tune stable unisons ;-)

I wouldn't be achieving the reputation that I have

Kawai Baby Grand Piano in Unequal Temperament heaven

Testing a Yamaha C3 piano in unequal temperament for an outside amphitheatre performance

Chopin at Sonnenlink Festival, Mani, Greece in Unequal Temperament

were I to be that naïve about stability and unisons - but perhaps I don't know what I'm doing ;-)

Whilst tuning recently I've been doing videos documenting techniques both for encouragement of newbies and advice to some of my clients about touching up a tuning to maintain it for longer and from which in due course I'll happily accept criticism. I've documented instruments which I haven't been able to revisit over a three to ten year period whilst remaining substantially in tune, so I must have been doing something right in all these years.

I have a pupil to whom I'm teaching basics and Tuning a unison in a beginning piano tuning tutorial

 is a short lesson. Yes - I'm not being as critical as I might be because she's very much a beginner but from this perhaps anyone can see what I might be missing in my own technique.

So to the Steinway. . . . 

I was called in because it had problems. A little while ago I posted asking whether it was sacrilege to use CA . . . 

Over the past fortnight I've been able to get to know the instrument. I don't like making an instant diagnosis of something which might be complicated.

Apologies for the somewhat wiggly panorama of the wrest pins.

Perhaps one can see that this instrument has had a history. The more recent history before I came along was dots in permanent marker, black tape, and hitting the pins further into the block in the top two octaves. Apparently the instrument couldn't hold tune for the second half of a concert.

Identifying looser pins I've put felt washers on any such pins so as to monitor its behaviour. It's served daily concerts and to the standard audible in 

Rachmaninoff Sonata No.2 Op.36 in unequal temperament

but on a daily basis I've had to touch up the tuning.

Slipped notes didn't correlate with the looser pins other than today in the treble where one note was afflicted by looseness on all three pins.

Tuning presents challenges. Please forgive me for explaining my perspective on stability but it might indicate if there's fault in my perception or whether there's something which is more the fault of the instrument or its environment. I'm not the first to have been experiencing lack of perfection with the results from this instrument.

In my view there are three types of tuning pin and string variability, requiring different techniques

1. looser pins, sometimes requiring a feather touch to avoid them jumping loose, but often providing precision control over the string and pitch. The pins are loose enough for the pressure applied to the tuning lever to be nearly entirely rotational without any horizontal wobble effect of the pins as one turns the lever from any angle
2. very tight pins where horizontal wobble forces from the lever can be more significant than rotational effect applied by the lever. Setting the pin becomes important. 12 o'clock lever position can be helpful causing left-right wobble not affecting pitch but less feel to the stability of the string. I prefer 10 or quarter past position so that I can lift pitch a half beat or so higher than required and let the string tension pull on the pin to set it where it wants to be.
3. jumpy strings where smoothness isn't possible and pitch changes in quantum leaps.

This instrument provides examples of all three behaviours and to some extent combinations in between. The knocking in of the treble pins has brought the coils down to the level of the plate so the instrument is suffering from what we might perceive to be inexpert attention in the past.

The concert hall Director is proposing to get a Steinway technician in from the capital city three hours away or further afield. This could be significantly expensive and I'm always humbled and impressed when meeting up with such expertise and could be ultimately good value. On the other hand advice might possibly not be very much different other than a rebuild.

However over the past fortnight I've proved that we can live with the instrument provided unisons are touched up before a concert and that it's potentially a good deal better than formerly it had been thought to have been. 

In the first instance I'm proposing to apply CA treatment on pins identified as being on the loose side and Protek Prolube on the bearing felts and or agraffes, and then monitor behaviour to see if tuning can be more reliable and predictable.

Any opinions, criticisms and thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Best wishes

David P 

You are fighting a difficult battle here . If pins have been pounded in that is a red flag that you should document in an inspection report. I would take torque readings in each section of the piano . Take torque readings on the tightest and looser strings as well as the ones where the pins where pounded in.It 

sounds as if the block needs to be replaced but it is also important to look at the condition of the hammers. Flat strike points, heavy string cuts and poor regulation will be adding additional stresses leading to instability, poor unisons etc   There are heavy hitters who like to beat on the keys often keeping the damper pedal down . As far as using CA glue it is effective to buy some time. 

    "Slipped notes didn't correlate with the looser pins"

    Indeed. Loose pins would sound even worse. The first and last thing I've done is to use a wood wedge and my tuning lever handle to very lightly tap the wires on/near the front/top bearings. I'm not sure loud playing should have that much to do with it. A hammer shank to massage string segments may help you.  Many agree unison stability is key. Prime issue. Unisons should be good enough to tune subsequent intervals.

"Pianist who bang piano out of tune"     this is horrifying!  https://www.instagram.com/jazzmemes_/reel/C8RuNjDxMAf/

On Facebook I jokingly placed a video indicating my frustration with pianists who'd come along playing with amplified double bass, drums and cymbals and bashed a concert instrument to pieces. Campaign against violence against concert pianos

A couple of days before I'd tuned the instrument to perfection and in July had voiced it nicely. Now many of the hammers are hard and would benefit from revoicing and another instrument locally had been available to a student to practice on for two months putting that Steinway totally out of tune and regulation. 

Commentators on Facebook kindly told me that I didn't know how to tune stable unisons ;-)

I wouldn't be achieving the reputation that I have

Kawai Baby Grand Piano in Unequal Temperament heaven

Testing a Yamaha C3 piano in unequal temperament for an outside amphitheatre performance

Chopin at Sonnenlink Festival, Mani, Greece in Unequal Temperament

were I to be that naïve about stability and unisons - but perhaps I don't know what I'm doing ;-)

Whilst tuning recently I've been doing videos documenting techniques both for encouragement of newbies and advice to some of my clients about touching up a tuning to maintain it for longer and from which in due course I'll happily accept criticism. I've documented instruments which I haven't been able to revisit over a three to ten year period whilst remaining substantially in tune, so I must have been doing something right in all these years.

I have a pupil to whom I'm teaching basics and Tuning a unison in a beginning piano tuning tutorial

 is a short lesson. Yes - I'm not being as critical as I might be because she's very much a beginner but from this perhaps anyone can see what I might be missing in my own technique.

So to the Steinway. . . . 

I was called in because it had problems. A little while ago I posted asking whether it was sacrilege to use CA . . . 

Over the past fortnight I've been able to get to know the instrument. I don't like making an instant diagnosis of something which might be complicated.

Apologies for the somewhat wiggly panorama of the wrest pins.

Perhaps one can see that this instrument has had a history. The more recent history before I came along was dots in permanent marker, black tape, and hitting the pins further into the block in the top two octaves. Apparently the instrument couldn't hold tune for the second half of a concert.

Identifying looser pins I've put felt washers on any such pins so as to monitor its behaviour. It's served daily concerts and to the standard audible in 

Rachmaninoff Sonata No.2 Op.36 in unequal temperament

but on a daily basis I've had to touch up the tuning.

Slipped notes didn't correlate with the looser pins other than today in the treble where one note was afflicted by looseness on all three pins.

Tuning presents challenges. Please forgive me for explaining my perspective on stability but it might indicate if there's fault in my perception or whether there's something which is more the fault of the instrument or its environment. I'm not the first to have been experiencing lack of perfection with the results from this instrument.

In my view there are three types of tuning pin and string variability, requiring different techniques

1. looser pins, sometimes requiring a feather touch to avoid them jumping loose, but often providing precision control over the string and pitch. The pins are loose enough for the pressure applied to the tuning lever to be nearly entirely rotational without any horizontal wobble effect of the pins as one turns the lever from any angle
2. very tight pins where horizontal wobble forces from the lever can be more significant than rotational effect applied by the lever. Setting the pin becomes important. 12 o'clock lever position can be helpful causing left-right wobble not affecting pitch but less feel to the stability of the string. I prefer 10 or quarter past position so that I can lift pitch a half beat or so higher than required and let the string tension pull on the pin to set it where it wants to be.
3. jumpy strings where smoothness isn't possible and pitch changes in quantum leaps.

This instrument provides examples of all three behaviours and to some extent combinations in between. The knocking in of the treble pins has brought the coils down to the level of the plate so the instrument is suffering from what we might perceive to be inexpert attention in the past.

The concert hall Director is proposing to get a Steinway technician in from the capital city three hours away or further afield. This could be significantly expensive and I'm always humbled and impressed when meeting up with such expertise and could be ultimately good value. On the other hand advice might possibly not be very much different other than a rebuild.

However over the past fortnight I've proved that we can live with the instrument provided unisons are touched up before a concert and that it's potentially a good deal better than formerly it had been thought to have been. 

In the first instance I'm proposing to apply CA treatment on pins identified as being on the loose side and Protek Prolube on the bearing felts and or agraffes, and then monitor behaviour to see if tuning can be more reliable and predictable.

Any opinions, criticisms and thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Best wishes

David P 

You are fighting a difficult battle here . If pins have been pounded in that is a red flag that you should document in an inspection report. I would take torque readings in each section of the piano . Take torque readings on the tightest and looser strings as well as the ones where the pins where pounded in.It 

sounds as if the block needs to be replaced but it is also important to look at the condition of the hammers. Flat strike points, heavy string cuts and poor regulation will be adding additional stresses leading to instability, poor unisons etc   There are heavy hitters who like to beat on the keys often keeping the damper pedal down . As far as using CA glue it is effective to buy some time. 

    "Slipped notes didn't correlate with the looser pins"

    Indeed. Loose pins would sound even worse. The first and last thing I've done is to use a wood wedge and my tuning lever handle to very lightly tap the wires on/near the front/top bearings. I'm not sure loud playing should have that much to do with it. A hammer shank to massage string segments may help you.  Many agree unison stability is key. Prime issue. Unisons should be good enough to tune subsequent intervals.

"Pianist who bang piano out of tune"     this is horrifying!  https://www.instagram.com/jazzmemes_/reel/C8RuNjDxMAf/

On Facebook I jokingly placed a video indicating my frustration with pianists who'd come along playing with amplified double bass, drums and cymbals and bashed a concert instrument to pieces. Campaign against violence against concert pianos

A couple of days before I'd tuned the instrument to perfection and in July had voiced it nicely. Now many of the hammers are hard and would benefit from revoicing and another instrument locally had been available to a student to practice on for two months putting that Steinway totally out of tune and regulation. 

Commentators on Facebook kindly told me that I didn't know how to tune stable unisons ;-)

I wouldn't be achieving the reputation that I have

Kawai Baby Grand Piano in Unequal Temperament heaven

Testing a Yamaha C3 piano in unequal temperament for an outside amphitheatre performance

Chopin at Sonnenlink Festival, Mani, Greece in Unequal Temperament

were I to be that naïve about stability and unisons - but perhaps I don't know what I'm doing ;-)

Whilst tuning recently I've been doing videos documenting techniques both for encouragement of newbies and advice to some of my clients about touching up a tuning to maintain it for longer and from which in due course I'll happily accept criticism. I've documented instruments which I haven't been able to revisit over a three to ten year period whilst remaining substantially in tune, so I must have been doing something right in all these years.

I have a pupil to whom I'm teaching basics and Tuning a unison in a beginning piano tuning tutorial

 is a short lesson. Yes - I'm not being as critical as I might be because she's very much a beginner but from this perhaps anyone can see what I might be missing in my own technique.

So to the Steinway. . . . 

I was called in because it had problems. A little while ago I posted asking whether it was sacrilege to use CA . . . 

Over the past fortnight I've been able to get to know the instrument. I don't like making an instant diagnosis of something which might be complicated.

Apologies for the somewhat wiggly panorama of the wrest pins.

Perhaps one can see that this instrument has had a history. The more recent history before I came along was dots in permanent marker, black tape, and hitting the pins further into the block in the top two octaves. Apparently the instrument couldn't hold tune for the second half of a concert.

Identifying looser pins I've put felt washers on any such pins so as to monitor its behaviour. It's served daily concerts and to the standard audible in 

Rachmaninoff Sonata No.2 Op.36 in unequal temperament

but on a daily basis I've had to touch up the tuning.

Slipped notes didn't correlate with the looser pins other than today in the treble where one note was afflicted by looseness on all three pins.

Tuning presents challenges. Please forgive me for explaining my perspective on stability but it might indicate if there's fault in my perception or whether there's something which is more the fault of the instrument or its environment. I'm not the first to have been experiencing lack of perfection with the results from this instrument.

In my view there are three types of tuning pin and string variability, requiring different techniques

1. looser pins, sometimes requiring a feather touch to avoid them jumping loose, but often providing precision control over the string and pitch. The pins are loose enough for the pressure applied to the tuning lever to be nearly entirely rotational without any horizontal wobble effect of the pins as one turns the lever from any angle
2. very tight pins where horizontal wobble forces from the lever can be more significant than rotational effect applied by the lever. Setting the pin becomes important. 12 o'clock lever position can be helpful causing left-right wobble not affecting pitch but less feel to the stability of the string. I prefer 10 or quarter past position so that I can lift pitch a half beat or so higher than required and let the string tension pull on the pin to set it where it wants to be.
3. jumpy strings where smoothness isn't possible and pitch changes in quantum leaps.

This instrument provides examples of all three behaviours and to some extent combinations in between. The knocking in of the treble pins has brought the coils down to the level of the plate so the instrument is suffering from what we might perceive to be inexpert attention in the past.

The concert hall Director is proposing to get a Steinway technician in from the capital city three hours away or further afield. This could be significantly expensive and I'm always humbled and impressed when meeting up with such expertise and could be ultimately good value. On the other hand advice might possibly not be very much different other than a rebuild.

However over the past fortnight I've proved that we can live with the instrument provided unisons are touched up before a concert and that it's potentially a good deal better than formerly it had been thought to have been. 

In the first instance I'm proposing to apply CA treatment on pins identified as being on the loose side and Protek Prolube on the bearing felts and or agraffes, and then monitor behaviour to see if tuning can be more reliable and predictable.

Any opinions, criticisms and thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Best wishes

David P 

It's not likely loose tuning pins especially if the slipping notes don't correlate with the loose pins.  More likely it's a rendering problem, strings not moving freely through friction points.  That can be a very difficult problem especially when combined with jumpy pins.  

First, I would lubricate friction points between tuning pin and capo bar including counterbearing bars, felt and capo bar.  Jon Page sells a counterbearing lubricant that works extremely well but you can use Protek.  

Second, you have to find a method of tuning which involves the smallest movement possible of the pin to achieve your target pitch.  Often that has to do with lever position but also turning method.  The ability to feel pin movement in the block is essential for this.  Hit the string very firmly prior to each listening blow which is always quieter, so it's a two blow striking method hard;soft, hard:soft, etc.  You'll have to strike:listen  several times for each note while you are manipulating the pin in such a way that you can hear a slight pull of the pitch sharp via flex of the pin, settle the pin back down with a slight forward press.  So it's lift:settle, lift:settle while your using a hard:soft hard:soft blow.  You want to be hearing a slight lift of the pitch before you settle the pin back down because that means you are actually getting a direct adjustment of the speaking length.  You can't otherwise be sure that's happening.  Easier to demo than to describe. In such a case I might be going through 10-15 hard:soft cycles for the difficult note, maybe more.  If you don't hear a slight change in pitch for the flexing of the pin then you're not getting movement of the string through the friction points.  This is an essential technique for stability.  The forearm smash is unnecessary if you're doing this and not generally productive, in my experience.

Third, in the treble section you can try what some of the Steinway C&A techs do which is with a small dowel (hammer shank dowel is fine), after you are done and think you have stability, press slightly on the string from the middle of the speaking length and flex the string a bit.  If there is a rendering problem this will often be enough to get movement.  Usually, rendering problems are in the capo section (rarely the bass and less the agraffe section).  

Fourth, do a complete second pass listening for any unisons moving again using a double blow of hard:soft (listening on the soft).  

Fifth, do another pass playing relatively softly just to check unison movement again. (

BTW I wear hearing attentuation plugs that are adjustable and usually cut about 7-10 dbs for the pound-in phase.  After I'm done and just listening quietly I remove them. I also use a three finger technique for playing the loud blows: thumb, index, middle finger held together so I'm playing the note with all three fingers supporting each other.  You can also use a pounder I just don't like holding something in my left hand as I tend to open out and listen to octaves quickly.  

I've tuned concerts for a Liszt marathon for many years now and the piano (Steinway D) gets a massive workout.  Rarely do I find anything out of tune at the end of the concert and if so, it's subtle and still passable.  

Of course, if your environment is unstable and the piano is actually shifting sharp and flat between tuning cycles this increases the challenge (and the time required) especially for a piano with rendering problems.  Install a humidity control system (dampp-chaser) to keep the piano at pitch.    

You are fighting a difficult battle here . If pins have been pounded in that is a red flag that you should document in an inspection report. I would take torque readings in each section of the piano . Take torque readings on the tightest and looser strings as well as the ones where the pins where pounded in.It 

sounds as if the block needs to be replaced but it is also important to look at the condition of the hammers. Flat strike points, heavy string cuts and poor regulation will be adding additional stresses leading to instability, poor unisons etc   There are heavy hitters who like to beat on the keys often keeping the damper pedal down . As far as using CA glue it is effective to buy some time. 

    "Slipped notes didn't correlate with the looser pins"

    Indeed. Loose pins would sound even worse. The first and last thing I've done is to use a wood wedge and my tuning lever handle to very lightly tap the wires on/near the front/top bearings. I'm not sure loud playing should have that much to do with it. A hammer shank to massage string segments may help you.  Many agree unison stability is key. Prime issue. Unisons should be good enough to tune subsequent intervals.

"Pianist who bang piano out of tune"     this is horrifying!  https://www.instagram.com/jazzmemes_/reel/C8RuNjDxMAf/

On Facebook I jokingly placed a video indicating my frustration with pianists who'd come along playing with amplified double bass, drums and cymbals and bashed a concert instrument to pieces. Campaign against violence against concert pianos

A couple of days before I'd tuned the instrument to perfection and in July had voiced it nicely. Now many of the hammers are hard and would benefit from revoicing and another instrument locally had been available to a student to practice on for two months putting that Steinway totally out of tune and regulation. 

Commentators on Facebook kindly told me that I didn't know how to tune stable unisons ;-)

I wouldn't be achieving the reputation that I have

Kawai Baby Grand Piano in Unequal Temperament heaven

Testing a Yamaha C3 piano in unequal temperament for an outside amphitheatre performance

Chopin at Sonnenlink Festival, Mani, Greece in Unequal Temperament

were I to be that naïve about stability and unisons - but perhaps I don't know what I'm doing ;-)

Whilst tuning recently I've been doing videos documenting techniques both for encouragement of newbies and advice to some of my clients about touching up a tuning to maintain it for longer and from which in due course I'll happily accept criticism. I've documented instruments which I haven't been able to revisit over a three to ten year period whilst remaining substantially in tune, so I must have been doing something right in all these years.

I have a pupil to whom I'm teaching basics and Tuning a unison in a beginning piano tuning tutorial

 is a short lesson. Yes - I'm not being as critical as I might be because she's very much a beginner but from this perhaps anyone can see what I might be missing in my own technique.

So to the Steinway. . . . 

I was called in because it had problems. A little while ago I posted asking whether it was sacrilege to use CA . . . 

Over the past fortnight I've been able to get to know the instrument. I don't like making an instant diagnosis of something which might be complicated.

Apologies for the somewhat wiggly panorama of the wrest pins.

Perhaps one can see that this instrument has had a history. The more recent history before I came along was dots in permanent marker, black tape, and hitting the pins further into the block in the top two octaves. Apparently the instrument couldn't hold tune for the second half of a concert.

Identifying looser pins I've put felt washers on any such pins so as to monitor its behaviour. It's served daily concerts and to the standard audible in 

Rachmaninoff Sonata No.2 Op.36 in unequal temperament

but on a daily basis I've had to touch up the tuning.

Slipped notes didn't correlate with the looser pins other than today in the treble where one note was afflicted by looseness on all three pins.

Tuning presents challenges. Please forgive me for explaining my perspective on stability but it might indicate if there's fault in my perception or whether there's something which is more the fault of the instrument or its environment. I'm not the first to have been experiencing lack of perfection with the results from this instrument.

In my view there are three types of tuning pin and string variability, requiring different techniques

1. looser pins, sometimes requiring a feather touch to avoid them jumping loose, but often providing precision control over the string and pitch. The pins are loose enough for the pressure applied to the tuning lever to be nearly entirely rotational without any horizontal wobble effect of the pins as one turns the lever from any angle
2. very tight pins where horizontal wobble forces from the lever can be more significant than rotational effect applied by the lever. Setting the pin becomes important. 12 o'clock lever position can be helpful causing left-right wobble not affecting pitch but less feel to the stability of the string. I prefer 10 or quarter past position so that I can lift pitch a half beat or so higher than required and let the string tension pull on the pin to set it where it wants to be.
3. jumpy strings where smoothness isn't possible and pitch changes in quantum leaps.

This instrument provides examples of all three behaviours and to some extent combinations in between. The knocking in of the treble pins has brought the coils down to the level of the plate so the instrument is suffering from what we might perceive to be inexpert attention in the past.

The concert hall Director is proposing to get a Steinway technician in from the capital city three hours away or further afield. This could be significantly expensive and I'm always humbled and impressed when meeting up with such expertise and could be ultimately good value. On the other hand advice might possibly not be very much different other than a rebuild.

However over the past fortnight I've proved that we can live with the instrument provided unisons are touched up before a concert and that it's potentially a good deal better than formerly it had been thought to have been. 

In the first instance I'm proposing to apply CA treatment on pins identified as being on the loose side and Protek Prolube on the bearing felts and or agraffes, and then monitor behaviour to see if tuning can be more reliable and predictable.

Any opinions, criticisms and thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Best wishes

David P 

You are fighting a difficult battle here . If pins have been pounded in that is a red flag that you should document in an inspection report. I would take torque readings in each section of the piano . Take torque readings on the tightest and looser strings as well as the ones where the pins where pounded in.It 

sounds as if the block needs to be replaced but it is also important to look at the condition of the hammers. Flat strike points, heavy string cuts and poor regulation will be adding additional stresses leading to instability, poor unisons etc   There are heavy hitters who like to beat on the keys often keeping the damper pedal down . As far as using CA glue it is effective to buy some time. 

    "Slipped notes didn't correlate with the looser pins"

    Indeed. Loose pins would sound even worse. The first and last thing I've done is to use a wood wedge and my tuning lever handle to very lightly tap the wires on/near the front/top bearings. I'm not sure loud playing should have that much to do with it. A hammer shank to massage string segments may help you.  Many agree unison stability is key. Prime issue. Unisons should be good enough to tune subsequent intervals.

"Pianist who bang piano out of tune"     this is horrifying!  https://www.instagram.com/jazzmemes_/reel/C8RuNjDxMAf/

On Facebook I jokingly placed a video indicating my frustration with pianists who'd come along playing with amplified double bass, drums and cymbals and bashed a concert instrument to pieces. Campaign against violence against concert pianos

A couple of days before I'd tuned the instrument to perfection and in July had voiced it nicely. Now many of the hammers are hard and would benefit from revoicing and another instrument locally had been available to a student to practice on for two months putting that Steinway totally out of tune and regulation. 

Commentators on Facebook kindly told me that I didn't know how to tune stable unisons ;-)

I wouldn't be achieving the reputation that I have

Kawai Baby Grand Piano in Unequal Temperament heaven

Testing a Yamaha C3 piano in unequal temperament for an outside amphitheatre performance

Chopin at Sonnenlink Festival, Mani, Greece in Unequal Temperament

were I to be that naïve about stability and unisons - but perhaps I don't know what I'm doing ;-)

Whilst tuning recently I've been doing videos documenting techniques both for encouragement of newbies and advice to some of my clients about touching up a tuning to maintain it for longer and from which in due course I'll happily accept criticism. I've documented instruments which I haven't been able to revisit over a three to ten year period whilst remaining substantially in tune, so I must have been doing something right in all these years.

I have a pupil to whom I'm teaching basics and Tuning a unison in a beginning piano tuning tutorial

 is a short lesson. Yes - I'm not being as critical as I might be because she's very much a beginner but from this perhaps anyone can see what I might be missing in my own technique.

So to the Steinway. . . . 

I was called in because it had problems. A little while ago I posted asking whether it was sacrilege to use CA . . . 

Over the past fortnight I've been able to get to know the instrument. I don't like making an instant diagnosis of something which might be complicated.

Apologies for the somewhat wiggly panorama of the wrest pins.

Perhaps one can see that this instrument has had a history. The more recent history before I came along was dots in permanent marker, black tape, and hitting the pins further into the block in the top two octaves. Apparently the instrument couldn't hold tune for the second half of a concert.

Identifying looser pins I've put felt washers on any such pins so as to monitor its behaviour. It's served daily concerts and to the standard audible in 

Rachmaninoff Sonata No.2 Op.36 in unequal temperament

but on a daily basis I've had to touch up the tuning.

Slipped notes didn't correlate with the looser pins other than today in the treble where one note was afflicted by looseness on all three pins.

Tuning presents challenges. Please forgive me for explaining my perspective on stability but it might indicate if there's fault in my perception or whether there's something which is more the fault of the instrument or its environment. I'm not the first to have been experiencing lack of perfection with the results from this instrument.

In my view there are three types of tuning pin and string variability, requiring different techniques

1. looser pins, sometimes requiring a feather touch to avoid them jumping loose, but often providing precision control over the string and pitch. The pins are loose enough for the pressure applied to the tuning lever to be nearly entirely rotational without any horizontal wobble effect of the pins as one turns the lever from any angle
2. very tight pins where horizontal wobble forces from the lever can be more significant than rotational effect applied by the lever. Setting the pin becomes important. 12 o'clock lever position can be helpful causing left-right wobble not affecting pitch but less feel to the stability of the string. I prefer 10 or quarter past position so that I can lift pitch a half beat or so higher than required and let the string tension pull on the pin to set it where it wants to be.
3. jumpy strings where smoothness isn't possible and pitch changes in quantum leaps.

This instrument provides examples of all three behaviours and to some extent combinations in between. The knocking in of the treble pins has brought the coils down to the level of the plate so the instrument is suffering from what we might perceive to be inexpert attention in the past.

The concert hall Director is proposing to get a Steinway technician in from the capital city three hours away or further afield. This could be significantly expensive and I'm always humbled and impressed when meeting up with such expertise and could be ultimately good value. On the other hand advice might possibly not be very much different other than a rebuild.

However over the past fortnight I've proved that we can live with the instrument provided unisons are touched up before a concert and that it's potentially a good deal better than formerly it had been thought to have been. 

In the first instance I'm proposing to apply CA treatment on pins identified as being on the loose side and Protek Prolube on the bearing felts and or agraffes, and then monitor behaviour to see if tuning can be more reliable and predictable.

Any opinions, criticisms and thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Best wishes

David P 

Yes. Before/during/after on most all non-speaking wire segments to hear what shifts. 

You are fighting a difficult battle here . If pins have been pounded in that is a red flag that you should document in an inspection report. I would take torque readings in each section of the piano . Take torque readings on the tightest and looser strings as well as the ones where the pins where pounded in.It 

sounds as if the block needs to be replaced but it is also important to look at the condition of the hammers. Flat strike points, heavy string cuts and poor regulation will be adding additional stresses leading to instability, poor unisons etc   There are heavy hitters who like to beat on the keys often keeping the damper pedal down . As far as using CA glue it is effective to buy some time. 

    "Slipped notes didn't correlate with the looser pins"

    Indeed. Loose pins would sound even worse. The first and last thing I've done is to use a wood wedge and my tuning lever handle to very lightly tap the wires on/near the front/top bearings. I'm not sure loud playing should have that much to do with it. A hammer shank to massage string segments may help you.  Many agree unison stability is key. Prime issue. Unisons should be good enough to tune subsequent intervals.

"Pianist who bang piano out of tune"     this is horrifying!  https://www.instagram.com/jazzmemes_/reel/C8RuNjDxMAf/

On Facebook I jokingly placed a video indicating my frustration with pianists who'd come along playing with amplified double bass, drums and cymbals and bashed a concert instrument to pieces. Campaign against violence against concert pianos

A couple of days before I'd tuned the instrument to perfection and in July had voiced it nicely. Now many of the hammers are hard and would benefit from revoicing and another instrument locally had been available to a student to practice on for two months putting that Steinway totally out of tune and regulation. 

Commentators on Facebook kindly told me that I didn't know how to tune stable unisons ;-)

I wouldn't be achieving the reputation that I have

Kawai Baby Grand Piano in Unequal Temperament heaven

Testing a Yamaha C3 piano in unequal temperament for an outside amphitheatre performance

Chopin at Sonnenlink Festival, Mani, Greece in Unequal Temperament

were I to be that naïve about stability and unisons - but perhaps I don't know what I'm doing ;-)

Whilst tuning recently I've been doing videos documenting techniques both for encouragement of newbies and advice to some of my clients about touching up a tuning to maintain it for longer and from which in due course I'll happily accept criticism. I've documented instruments which I haven't been able to revisit over a three to ten year period whilst remaining substantially in tune, so I must have been doing something right in all these years.

I have a pupil to whom I'm teaching basics and Tuning a unison in a beginning piano tuning tutorial

 is a short lesson. Yes - I'm not being as critical as I might be because she's very much a beginner but from this perhaps anyone can see what I might be missing in my own technique.

So to the Steinway. . . . 

I was called in because it had problems. A little while ago I posted asking whether it was sacrilege to use CA . . . 

Over the past fortnight I've been able to get to know the instrument. I don't like making an instant diagnosis of something which might be complicated.

Apologies for the somewhat wiggly panorama of the wrest pins.

Perhaps one can see that this instrument has had a history. The more recent history before I came along was dots in permanent marker, black tape, and hitting the pins further into the block in the top two octaves. Apparently the instrument couldn't hold tune for the second half of a concert.

Identifying looser pins I've put felt washers on any such pins so as to monitor its behaviour. It's served daily concerts and to the standard audible in 

Rachmaninoff Sonata No.2 Op.36 in unequal temperament

but on a daily basis I've had to touch up the tuning.

Slipped notes didn't correlate with the looser pins other than today in the treble where one note was afflicted by looseness on all three pins.

Tuning presents challenges. Please forgive me for explaining my perspective on stability but it might indicate if there's fault in my perception or whether there's something which is more the fault of the instrument or its environment. I'm not the first to have been experiencing lack of perfection with the results from this instrument.

In my view there are three types of tuning pin and string variability, requiring different techniques

1. looser pins, sometimes requiring a feather touch to avoid them jumping loose, but often providing precision control over the string and pitch. The pins are loose enough for the pressure applied to the tuning lever to be nearly entirely rotational without any horizontal wobble effect of the pins as one turns the lever from any angle
2. very tight pins where horizontal wobble forces from the lever can be more significant than rotational effect applied by the lever. Setting the pin becomes important. 12 o'clock lever position can be helpful causing left-right wobble not affecting pitch but less feel to the stability of the string. I prefer 10 or quarter past position so that I can lift pitch a half beat or so higher than required and let the string tension pull on the pin to set it where it wants to be.
3. jumpy strings where smoothness isn't possible and pitch changes in quantum leaps.

This instrument provides examples of all three behaviours and to some extent combinations in between. The knocking in of the treble pins has brought the coils down to the level of the plate so the instrument is suffering from what we might perceive to be inexpert attention in the past.

The concert hall Director is proposing to get a Steinway technician in from the capital city three hours away or further afield. This could be significantly expensive and I'm always humbled and impressed when meeting up with such expertise and could be ultimately good value. On the other hand advice might possibly not be very much different other than a rebuild.

However over the past fortnight I've proved that we can live with the instrument provided unisons are touched up before a concert and that it's potentially a good deal better than formerly it had been thought to have been. 

In the first instance I'm proposing to apply CA treatment on pins identified as being on the loose side and Protek Prolube on the bearing felts and or agraffes, and then monitor behaviour to see if tuning can be more reliable and predictable.

Any opinions, criticisms and thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Best wishes

David P 

Paul - THANK YOU for your gold-dust instructions, detail and advice.

For many years I've used techniques that have served well with instruments that have been well behaved but I'm not the first to have been stumped with this instrument which under the hands of previous tuners hadn't even served half a concert without going out of tune. With the techniques you're advocating there should be a reasonable expectation of taming the beast and I'm looking forward to trying them out.

In particular in the setting of the pin I've always favoured from a 10 to quarter past lever angle, coming up from below to very slightly above and letting the tension pull the pin back to set it, feeling where it wants to be. From memory Maggie Jusiel did a video which I didn't understand but about which you've made plain, testing from 12 o'clock pushing forward and checking from below pitch that the pin reverts upwards to pitch of its own accord.

Hopefully discussions like this will help others facing instrument which present such fun . . . 

Many thanks and best wishes

David P

Yes. Before/during/after on most all non-speaking wire segments to hear what shifts. 

You are fighting a difficult battle here . If pins have been pounded in that is a red flag that you should document in an inspection report. I would take torque readings in each section of the piano . Take torque readings on the tightest and looser strings as well as the ones where the pins where pounded in.It 

sounds as if the block needs to be replaced but it is also important to look at the condition of the hammers. Flat strike points, heavy string cuts and poor regulation will be adding additional stresses leading to instability, poor unisons etc   There are heavy hitters who like to beat on the keys often keeping the damper pedal down . As far as using CA glue it is effective to buy some time. 

    "Slipped notes didn't correlate with the looser pins"

    Indeed. Loose pins would sound even worse. The first and last thing I've done is to use a wood wedge and my tuning lever handle to very lightly tap the wires on/near the front/top bearings. I'm not sure loud playing should have that much to do with it. A hammer shank to massage string segments may help you.  Many agree unison stability is key. Prime issue. Unisons should be good enough to tune subsequent intervals.

"Pianist who bang piano out of tune"     this is horrifying!  https://www.instagram.com/jazzmemes_/reel/C8RuNjDxMAf/

On Facebook I jokingly placed a video indicating my frustration with pianists who'd come along playing with amplified double bass, drums and cymbals and bashed a concert instrument to pieces. Campaign against violence against concert pianos

A couple of days before I'd tuned the instrument to perfection and in July had voiced it nicely. Now many of the hammers are hard and would benefit from revoicing and another instrument locally had been available to a student to practice on for two months putting that Steinway totally out of tune and regulation. 

Commentators on Facebook kindly told me that I didn't know how to tune stable unisons ;-)

I wouldn't be achieving the reputation that I have

Kawai Baby Grand Piano in Unequal Temperament heaven

Testing a Yamaha C3 piano in unequal temperament for an outside amphitheatre performance

Chopin at Sonnenlink Festival, Mani, Greece in Unequal Temperament

were I to be that naïve about stability and unisons - but perhaps I don't know what I'm doing ;-)

Whilst tuning recently I've been doing videos documenting techniques both for encouragement of newbies and advice to some of my clients about touching up a tuning to maintain it for longer and from which in due course I'll happily accept criticism. I've documented instruments which I haven't been able to revisit over a three to ten year period whilst remaining substantially in tune, so I must have been doing something right in all these years.

I have a pupil to whom I'm teaching basics and Tuning a unison in a beginning piano tuning tutorial

 is a short lesson. Yes - I'm not being as critical as I might be because she's very much a beginner but from this perhaps anyone can see what I might be missing in my own technique.

So to the Steinway. . . . 

I was called in because it had problems. A little while ago I posted asking whether it was sacrilege to use CA . . . 

Over the past fortnight I've been able to get to know the instrument. I don't like making an instant diagnosis of something which might be complicated.

Apologies for the somewhat wiggly panorama of the wrest pins.

Perhaps one can see that this instrument has had a history. The more recent history before I came along was dots in permanent marker, black tape, and hitting the pins further into the block in the top two octaves. Apparently the instrument couldn't hold tune for the second half of a concert.

Identifying looser pins I've put felt washers on any such pins so as to monitor its behaviour. It's served daily concerts and to the standard audible in 

Rachmaninoff Sonata No.2 Op.36 in unequal temperament

but on a daily basis I've had to touch up the tuning.

Slipped notes didn't correlate with the looser pins other than today in the treble where one note was afflicted by looseness on all three pins.

Tuning presents challenges. Please forgive me for explaining my perspective on stability but it might indicate if there's fault in my perception or whether there's something which is more the fault of the instrument or its environment. I'm not the first to have been experiencing lack of perfection with the results from this instrument.

In my view there are three types of tuning pin and string variability, requiring different techniques

1. looser pins, sometimes requiring a feather touch to avoid them jumping loose, but often providing precision control over the string and pitch. The pins are loose enough for the pressure applied to the tuning lever to be nearly entirely rotational without any horizontal wobble effect of the pins as one turns the lever from any angle
2. very tight pins where horizontal wobble forces from the lever can be more significant than rotational effect applied by the lever. Setting the pin becomes important. 12 o'clock lever position can be helpful causing left-right wobble not affecting pitch but less feel to the stability of the string. I prefer 10 or quarter past position so that I can lift pitch a half beat or so higher than required and let the string tension pull on the pin to set it where it wants to be.
3. jumpy strings where smoothness isn't possible and pitch changes in quantum leaps.

This instrument provides examples of all three behaviours and to some extent combinations in between. The knocking in of the treble pins has brought the coils down to the level of the plate so the instrument is suffering from what we might perceive to be inexpert attention in the past.

The concert hall Director is proposing to get a Steinway technician in from the capital city three hours away or further afield. This could be significantly expensive and I'm always humbled and impressed when meeting up with such expertise and could be ultimately good value. On the other hand advice might possibly not be very much different other than a rebuild.

However over the past fortnight I've proved that we can live with the instrument provided unisons are touched up before a concert and that it's potentially a good deal better than formerly it had been thought to have been. 

In the first instance I'm proposing to apply CA treatment on pins identified as being on the loose side and Protek Prolube on the bearing felts and or agraffes, and then monitor behaviour to see if tuning can be more reliable and predictable.

Any opinions, criticisms and thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Best wishes

David P