Pianotech

"Pianist who bang piano out of tune"     this is horrifying!  https://www.instagram.com/jazzmemes_/reel/C8RuNjDxMAf/

"Pianist who bang piano out of tune"     this is horrifying!  https://www.instagram.com/jazzmemes_/reel/C8RuNjDxMAf/

    "Slipped notes didn't correlate with the looser pins"

    Indeed. Loose pins would sound even worse. The first and last thing I've done is to use a wood wedge and my tuning lever handle to very lightly tap the wires on/near the front/top bearings. I'm not sure loud playing should have that much to do with it. A hammer shank to massage string segments may help you.  Many agree unison stability is key. Prime issue. Unisons should be good enough to tune subsequent intervals.

"Pianist who bang piano out of tune"     this is horrifying!  https://www.instagram.com/jazzmemes_/reel/C8RuNjDxMAf/

You are fighting a difficult battle here . If pins have been pounded in that is a red flag that you should document in an inspection report. I would take torque readings in each section of the piano . Take torque readings on the tightest and looser strings as well as the ones where the pins where pounded in.It 

sounds as if the block needs to be replaced but it is also important to look at the condition of the hammers. Flat strike points, heavy string cuts and poor regulation will be adding additional stresses leading to instability, poor unisons etc   There are heavy hitters who like to beat on the keys often keeping the damper pedal down . As far as using CA glue it is effective to buy some time. 

    "Slipped notes didn't correlate with the looser pins"

    Indeed. Loose pins would sound even worse. The first and last thing I've done is to use a wood wedge and my tuning lever handle to very lightly tap the wires on/near the front/top bearings. I'm not sure loud playing should have that much to do with it. A hammer shank to massage string segments may help you.  Many agree unison stability is key. Prime issue. Unisons should be good enough to tune subsequent intervals.

You are fighting a difficult battle here . If pins have been pounded in that is a red flag that you should document in an inspection report. I would take torque readings in each section of the piano . Take torque readings on the tightest and looser strings as well as the ones where the pins where pounded in.It 

sounds as if the block needs to be replaced but it is also important to look at the condition of the hammers. Flat strike points, heavy string cuts and poor regulation will be adding additional stresses leading to instability, poor unisons etc   There are heavy hitters who like to beat on the keys often keeping the damper pedal down . As far as using CA glue it is effective to buy some time. 

    "Slipped notes didn't correlate with the looser pins"

    Indeed. Loose pins would sound even worse. The first and last thing I've done is to use a wood wedge and my tuning lever handle to very lightly tap the wires on/near the front/top bearings. I'm not sure loud playing should have that much to do with it. A hammer shank to massage string segments may help you.  Many agree unison stability is key. Prime issue. Unisons should be good enough to tune subsequent intervals.

"Pianist who bang piano out of tune"     this is horrifying!  https://www.instagram.com/jazzmemes_/reel/C8RuNjDxMAf/

It's not likely loose tuning pins especially if the slipping notes don't correlate with the loose pins.  More likely it's a rendering problem, strings not moving freely through friction points.  That can be a very difficult problem especially when combined with jumpy pins.  

First, I would lubricate friction points between tuning pin and capo bar including counterbearing bars, felt and capo bar.  Jon Page sells a counterbearing lubricant that works extremely well but you can use Protek.  

Second, you have to find a method of tuning which involves the smallest movement possible of the pin to achieve your target pitch.  Often that has to do with lever position but also turning method.  The ability to feel pin movement in the block is essential for this.  Hit the string very firmly prior to each listening blow which is always quieter, so it's a two blow striking method hard;soft, hard:soft, etc.  You'll have to strike:listen  several times for each note while you are manipulating the pin in such a way that you can hear a slight pull of the pitch sharp via flex of the pin, settle the pin back down with a slight forward press.  So it's lift:settle, lift:settle while your using a hard:soft hard:soft blow.  You want to be hearing a slight lift of the pitch before you settle the pin back down because that means you are actually getting a direct adjustment of the speaking length.  You can't otherwise be sure that's happening.  Easier to demo than to describe. In such a case I might be going through 10-15 hard:soft cycles for the difficult note, maybe more.  If you don't hear a slight change in pitch for the flexing of the pin then you're not getting movement of the string through the friction points.  This is an essential technique for stability.  The forearm smash is unnecessary if you're doing this and not generally productive, in my experience.

Third, in the treble section you can try what some of the Steinway C&A techs do which is with a small dowel (hammer shank dowel is fine), after you are done and think you have stability, press slightly on the string from the middle of the speaking length and flex the string a bit.  If there is a rendering problem this will often be enough to get movement.  Usually, rendering problems are in the capo section (rarely the bass and less the agraffe section).  

Fourth, do a complete second pass listening for any unisons moving again using a double blow of hard:soft (listening on the soft).  

Fifth, do another pass playing relatively softly just to check unison movement again. (

BTW I wear hearing attentuation plugs that are adjustable and usually cut about 7-10 dbs for the pound-in phase.  After I'm done and just listening quietly I remove them. I also use a three finger technique for playing the loud blows: thumb, index, middle finger held together so I'm playing the note with all three fingers supporting each other.  You can also use a pounder I just don't like holding something in my left hand as I tend to open out and listen to octaves quickly.  

I've tuned concerts for a Liszt marathon for many years now and the piano (Steinway D) gets a massive workout.  Rarely do I find anything out of tune at the end of the concert and if so, it's subtle and still passable.  

Of course, if your environment is unstable and the piano is actually shifting sharp and flat between tuning cycles this increases the challenge (and the time required) especially for a piano with rendering problems.  Install a humidity control system (dampp-chaser) to keep the piano at pitch.    

You are fighting a difficult battle here . If pins have been pounded in that is a red flag that you should document in an inspection report. I would take torque readings in each section of the piano . Take torque readings on the tightest and looser strings as well as the ones where the pins where pounded in.It 

sounds as if the block needs to be replaced but it is also important to look at the condition of the hammers. Flat strike points, heavy string cuts and poor regulation will be adding additional stresses leading to instability, poor unisons etc   There are heavy hitters who like to beat on the keys often keeping the damper pedal down . As far as using CA glue it is effective to buy some time. 

    "Slipped notes didn't correlate with the looser pins"

    Indeed. Loose pins would sound even worse. The first and last thing I've done is to use a wood wedge and my tuning lever handle to very lightly tap the wires on/near the front/top bearings. I'm not sure loud playing should have that much to do with it. A hammer shank to massage string segments may help you.  Many agree unison stability is key. Prime issue. Unisons should be good enough to tune subsequent intervals.

"Pianist who bang piano out of tune"     this is horrifying!  https://www.instagram.com/jazzmemes_/reel/C8RuNjDxMAf/

You are fighting a difficult battle here . If pins have been pounded in that is a red flag that you should document in an inspection report. I would take torque readings in each section of the piano . Take torque readings on the tightest and looser strings as well as the ones where the pins where pounded in.It 

sounds as if the block needs to be replaced but it is also important to look at the condition of the hammers. Flat strike points, heavy string cuts and poor regulation will be adding additional stresses leading to instability, poor unisons etc   There are heavy hitters who like to beat on the keys often keeping the damper pedal down . As far as using CA glue it is effective to buy some time. 

    "Slipped notes didn't correlate with the looser pins"

    Indeed. Loose pins would sound even worse. The first and last thing I've done is to use a wood wedge and my tuning lever handle to very lightly tap the wires on/near the front/top bearings. I'm not sure loud playing should have that much to do with it. A hammer shank to massage string segments may help you.  Many agree unison stability is key. Prime issue. Unisons should be good enough to tune subsequent intervals.

"Pianist who bang piano out of tune"     this is horrifying!  https://www.instagram.com/jazzmemes_/reel/C8RuNjDxMAf/

Yes. Before/during/after on most all non-speaking wire segments to hear what shifts. 

You are fighting a difficult battle here . If pins have been pounded in that is a red flag that you should document in an inspection report. I would take torque readings in each section of the piano . Take torque readings on the tightest and looser strings as well as the ones where the pins where pounded in.It 

sounds as if the block needs to be replaced but it is also important to look at the condition of the hammers. Flat strike points, heavy string cuts and poor regulation will be adding additional stresses leading to instability, poor unisons etc   There are heavy hitters who like to beat on the keys often keeping the damper pedal down . As far as using CA glue it is effective to buy some time. 

    "Slipped notes didn't correlate with the looser pins"

    Indeed. Loose pins would sound even worse. The first and last thing I've done is to use a wood wedge and my tuning lever handle to very lightly tap the wires on/near the front/top bearings. I'm not sure loud playing should have that much to do with it. A hammer shank to massage string segments may help you.  Many agree unison stability is key. Prime issue. Unisons should be good enough to tune subsequent intervals.

"Pianist who bang piano out of tune"     this is horrifying!  https://www.instagram.com/jazzmemes_/reel/C8RuNjDxMAf/

Paul - THANK YOU for your gold-dust instructions, detail and advice.

For many years I've used techniques that have served well with instruments that have been well behaved but I'm not the first to have been stumped with this instrument which under the hands of previous tuners hadn't even served half a concert without going out of tune. With the techniques you're advocating there should be a reasonable expectation of taming the beast and I'm looking forward to trying them out.

In particular in the setting of the pin I've always favoured from a 10 to quarter past lever angle, coming up from below to very slightly above and letting the tension pull the pin back to set it, feeling where it wants to be. From memory Maggie Jusiel did a video which I didn't understand but about which you've made plain, testing from 12 o'clock pushing forward and checking from below pitch that the pin reverts upwards to pitch of its own accord.

Hopefully discussions like this will help others facing instrument which present such fun . . . 

Many thanks and best wishes

David P

Yes. Before/during/after on most all non-speaking wire segments to hear what shifts. 

You are fighting a difficult battle here . If pins have been pounded in that is a red flag that you should document in an inspection report. I would take torque readings in each section of the piano . Take torque readings on the tightest and looser strings as well as the ones where the pins where pounded in.It 

sounds as if the block needs to be replaced but it is also important to look at the condition of the hammers. Flat strike points, heavy string cuts and poor regulation will be adding additional stresses leading to instability, poor unisons etc   There are heavy hitters who like to beat on the keys often keeping the damper pedal down . As far as using CA glue it is effective to buy some time. 

    "Slipped notes didn't correlate with the looser pins"

    Indeed. Loose pins would sound even worse. The first and last thing I've done is to use a wood wedge and my tuning lever handle to very lightly tap the wires on/near the front/top bearings. I'm not sure loud playing should have that much to do with it. A hammer shank to massage string segments may help you.  Many agree unison stability is key. Prime issue. Unisons should be good enough to tune subsequent intervals.

"Pianist who bang piano out of tune"     this is horrifying!  https://www.instagram.com/jazzmemes_/reel/C8RuNjDxMAf/