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PianoScope errors?

  • 1.  PianoScope errors?

    Posted 7 days ago

    Working on a Yamaha GH-1 grand last week.  Measured inharmonicity using pianoscope app.  Treble tuned just fine, but the bass was off by 5-10 cents.  Had to tune the bass considerably "tighter" (i.e. more sharp) than indicated by the app to get pure octaves and 12ths.  5ths and 10ths fell in nicely with pure octaves and 12ths.  Since I'm still rather new to using this app (previously used Sanderson AccuTuner), I'm wondering if I didn't set something correctly when I did the measurements.  (Used the "balanced" setting, which I normally use.) 



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    Timothy Edwards
    Beckley WV
    (740) 517-7636
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  • 2.  RE: PianoScope errors?

    Member
    Posted 7 days ago

    How far out was the piano to begin with? I'm regularly performing second tuning after pitch raise using Pianoscope (balance setting). I consistently see the bass needing more work than tenor/treble.  I've started overpulling farther than its recommended point in bass. 

    Regarding, Pianoscope final placement and if you don’t like where results are compared to aural checks then you can try different style to see if that’s better or reach out to Frank at Pianoscope and pose the question  

    Michael



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    Michael Pitts
    Fishers IN
    Indianapolis, IN Chapter
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  • 3.  RE: PianoScope errors?

    Posted 3 days ago

    Bass was 5-7cb.  Tenor and treble were closer than that.  



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    Timothy Edwards
    Beckley WV
    (740) 517-7636
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  • 4.  RE: PianoScope errors?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 7 days ago
    Timothy

    I use an ETD, too, SAT, but I use it as a tool to get me to where I want to be. You did the right thing. Use your Scope to get you in the ballpark but then use your ears as the final judge. Not only in the bass, but for the whole piano. Look at what the scope does for you but then listen to what your ears tells you. 





  • 5.  RE: PianoScope errors?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 7 days ago

    I use Cybertuner.  I find occasionally that it incorrectly reads the notes below A1 and I tune them quite a bit sharp from what the display wants me to do.  Or it's just the monochords.  This happens on a few makes of grands - for some reason not in verticals, in my experience.  Otherwise, Cybertuner does an excellent job 95% of the time, especially for raising the pitch.  Instead of fiddling with the app, I just tune the notes by ear.  There are fewer strings per note in the low bass, and it doesn't take that much time to tune that section by ear.






  • 6.  RE: PianoScope errors?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 7 days ago

    I've been using Pianoscope for about 2 years, previously I also used an Accutuner.  The pitch raise feature in Pianoscope on large pitch raises doesn't seem to work so well (more than 20 cents), but less than that seems to work quite well.  When using the pitch raise, I'll select a max 25% over the default 20%.  If you use the pitch raise feature, be sure to look at the overpull on the graph before you begin.  Sometimes I see major errors on the graph where the software measured a different note and threw the calculation way off.  I will sometimes resample notes that appear off just to make sure they are correct.  If you're not using the pitch raise, and the piano is more than 5% off, you'll not end up close to where you need to be.  On some pianos that are around 5 cents off, I'll use the pitch raise anyway, and it comes out just fine.  I also use the freeze line, which makes the tuning even better.



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    Paul McCloud, RPT
    Accutone Piano Service
    www.AccutonePianoService.com
    pavadasa@gmail.com
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  • 7.  RE: PianoScope errors?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 6 days ago
    You may know all this already but... An ETD or even an aural tuner can come up with dramatically different results in the very low bass depending on which partials we give preference to.  The greater the inharmonicity the more ambiguous it gets -- and it's likely pretty high on a GH1. And maybe a bit uneven especially on the earlier iterations of it.

    Really I think you should probably contact Frank Illenburger directly and send him the tuning file. He'll probably be able to tell very quickly if something's actually glitching out or if the stretch calculation was working as intended.






  • 8.  RE: PianoScope errors?

    Posted 3 days ago

    Hi Paul,

    I would occasionally notice a small error with my SAT on a note or two, but on this GH-1, the entire bass section was off.  Never noticed that large an error with my SAT, or even with other pianos using PianoScope.   



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    Timothy Edwards
    Beckley WV
    (740) 517-7636
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  • 9.  RE: PianoScope errors?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 3 days ago

    This is strange.  I find that usually Pianoscope tends to tune a little sharper than the SAT, depending upon which "style" is chosen.  I'll use the pitch raise if the piano is more than 5% low.  I don't remember having to retune the bass up 5-7 cents like in your case.  Next time I'm in front of a GH-1, I'll pay close attention.  Also, I sometimes use the automatic note set to increment one step up or down rather than full automatic.  I see it jump sometimes an octave or a different note, and I didn't see that the keyboard display had changed.  Keep an eye on exactly which note you're tuning and whether the display is on that note.  That may have something to do with your situation, I don't know.  My SAT III has a similar situation if I use the automatic note switching.  Sometimes it will switch to a different note altogether, and the bass will end up quite sharp.  Very annoying to have to go back and retune.



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    Paul McCloud, RPT
    Accutone Piano Service
    www.AccutonePianoService.com
    pavadasa@gmail.com
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  • 10.  RE: PianoScope errors?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 6 days ago

    I would like to suggest that it may be a hardware, or rather a device issue and not a software issue. I have the same version of Veritune running on two different, and yes, old, iPod Touch devices. Both are set up identically. When testing the differences, using both devices on the same piano at the same time, I found the samples on each device were different. And doing a tuning with both of them sitting next to each other, they don't track quite as close as I would like. Not by huge amounts but enough to make me question which one may be more correct than the other. Whatever "correct" means. Over time I have used them both and I have to say I like the results from one of them but really don't like the results from the other. That said, and to reinforce what Wim says, if you're depending on the device to give you the tuning then you're not using your ears enough. 



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    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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  • 11.  RE: PianoScope errors?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 6 days ago

    When was the last time you've turned off you our device? Has it's software been updated?



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    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
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  • 12.  RE: PianoScope errors?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 5 days ago

    Any and all ETDs can (without obvious warning) "read" a different partial(s) and thereby give an erroneous result. If not super attentive this can escape the user's attention. 

    To be fair, this happens with our ears as well. This is largely why using outside intervals in analog tuning (which isolate specific partials) is such an important diagnostic to learn and apply.  

    The extremes on all pianos carry challenges fir ears and bytes.

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 13.  RE: PianoScope errors?

    Posted 3 days ago

    I reboot my iPhone every Monday.  Software is updated within a couple days of release. 



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    Timothy Edwards
    Beckley WV
    (740) 517-7636
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  • 14.  RE: PianoScope errors?

    Posted 3 days ago

    Dear Timothy,

    it might be a problem with the inharmonicity measurement or a bug in pianoscope. if you still have the tuning document for the GH-1, please send it to support@pianoscope.app so that I can take a look at it. I

    Frank Illenberger



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    Frank Illenberger
    Pianoscope
    Frankfurt am Main
    49-160-8055618
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  • 15.  RE: PianoScope errors?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 2 days ago

    Apropos of the discussion, yesterday I "tuned" a 2001 Yamaha GA-1. 

    There seemed to be no compromise in the wound strings that would yield any kind of decent octaves and 5ths at the same time, either with Verituner or aurally. I've tuned many of the other smaller Yamahas but never had one this bad in the bass.

    Has anyone else had issues tuning the bass in the GA-1?



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    Scott Cole, RPT
    rvpianotuner.com
    Talent, OR
    (541-601-9033
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  • 16.  RE: PianoScope errors?

    Posted 11 hours ago

    I spent a week at Yamaha last year and the way they wanted their pianos tuned is very different than the way I usually tune.

    They said that only their largest pianos can take a 6:3 octave. All of their smaller pianos need at most a 4:2 or 2:1 octave. The way they described it, was to stretch the octave as wide as possible without having a beat in the fundamental.

    The upper partials in the bass were noisy to me. But overall the pianos sounded more dynamic.

    It is worth trying.



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    Gannon Rhinehart
    Santa Fe NM
    (505) 692-8385
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  • 17.  RE: PianoScope errors?

    Posted 2 days ago

    Timothy sent me the file, and I was able to analyze it. As far as I can tell, the excessive bass stretch comes from a combination of two factors: the very poor scaling and string quality of this particular instrument, and the way pianoscope models inharmonicity in the default setting. Since this might affect other users as well, I've just posted a short article about it in the pianoscope forum.



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    Frank Illenberger
    Pianoscope
    Frankfurt am Main
    49-160-8055618
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  • 18.  RE: PianoScope errors?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 2 days ago

    Thanks for very clear writeup Frank!

    Broadly speaking, as ETD usage becomes more and more widely accepted, I think on the whole technicians need to become better educated on exactly how their tool is making stretch-based decisions.  So I really appreciate it that the app developers in our community have been so open about how they're doing this stuff.



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    Nathan Monteleone RPT
    Fort Worth TX
    (817) 675-9494
    nbmont@gmail.com
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  • 19.  RE: PianoScope errors?

    Posted 2 days ago

    Thanks Frank

    Dealing with challenging scales always presents interesting puzzles. For that reason, I've always tried to do what I can to give tuning apps the best data available, even if that means taking a bit more time to measure. Glad to see you will be looking to a more automatic solution to the problem shared by many other scale designs. 

    Ron Koval



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    Ron Koval
    CHICAGO IL
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  • 20.  RE: PianoScope errors?

    Posted 2 days ago

    Hi Timothy (and others who have struggled tuning these little Yamahas)

    Yes, they are a mess to tune - above that hockey stick curve in the graph not so bad...

    I was able to use strings ordered from J.D. Grandt - he has a rescale from Tremaine Parsons to replace the lowest 6 unisons above the break with wound doubles.(see Frank's article to view the current graph - one of the benefits of using the newer apps that display the graphs)  Completely reversible since just the outer holes in the existing agraffes are used. No changes to hitch pins. Dampers fit perfectly without adjustment. It straightens out the graph for a much better blend and best of all makes the piano tuneable and more stable through the seasons. Reasonably priced and just took a few hours of my time. 

    Ron Koval



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    Ron Koval
    CHICAGO IL
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