Pianotech

1941 console, C5 jack will not reset on slow release. Key droops. Lots of mass in the front of the key, light back end with no lead. I consider it a marvel that any of the jacks reset, but C5 is the only problem. Not an issue of lost motion, apparently. I smoothed the profile of the butt leather. Action centres are free. Capstan/heel interface is lubricated.Damper spring is slightly stronger than neighbours. Damper lift is slightly earlier than neighbours. I'll add some lead at the back if I need to, but why is this the only one acting up?

1941 console, C5 jack will not reset on slow release. Key droops. Lots of mass in the front of the key, light back end with no lead. I consider it a marvel that any of the jacks reset, but C5 is the only problem. Not an issue of lost motion, apparently. I smoothed the profile of the butt leather. Action centres are free. Capstan/heel interface is lubricated.Damper spring is slightly stronger than neighbours. Damper lift is slightly earlier than neighbours. I'll add some lead at the back if I need to, but why is this the only one acting up?

1941 console, C5 jack will not reset on slow release. Key droops. Lots of mass in the front of the key, light back end with no lead. I consider it a marvel that any of the jacks reset, but C5 is the only problem. Not an issue of lost motion, apparently. I smoothed the profile of the butt leather. Action centres are free. Capstan/heel interface is lubricated.Damper spring is slightly stronger than neighbours. Damper lift is slightly earlier than neighbours. I'll add some lead at the back if I need to, but why is this the only one acting up?

1941 console, C5 jack will not reset on slow release. Key droops. Lots of mass in the front of the key, light back end with no lead. I consider it a marvel that any of the jacks reset, but C5 is the only problem. Not an issue of lost motion, apparently. I smoothed the profile of the butt leather. Action centres are free. Capstan/heel interface is lubricated.Damper spring is slightly stronger than neighbours. Damper lift is slightly earlier than neighbours. I'll add some lead at the back if I need to, but why is this the only one acting up?

1941 console, C5 jack will not reset on slow release. Key droops. Lots of mass in the front of the key, light back end with no lead. I consider it a marvel that any of the jacks reset, but C5 is the only problem. Not an issue of lost motion, apparently. I smoothed the profile of the butt leather. Action centres are free. Capstan/heel interface is lubricated.Damper spring is slightly stronger than neighbours. Damper lift is slightly earlier than neighbours. I'll add some lead at the back if I need to, but why is this the only one acting up?

What brand of piano is it ? I would check the jack with a gram gauge , replace the jack spring, check the whippen flange pinning with gram gauge, hammer return spring for strength and presence of a loop, check the balance pin hole and ease if needed- same goes for the bushings on the key button and front key mortise. polish and lubricate keypins add a little graphite using a #2 pencil on the top of the jack and burnish it on. knock a little edge off the top of the jack where it touches the butt using sandpaper or a file to round it over check to see if the balance rail is level

1941 console, C5 jack will not reset on slow release. Key droops. Lots of mass in the front of the key, light back end with no lead. I consider it a marvel that any of the jacks reset, but C5 is the only problem. Not an issue of lost motion, apparently. I smoothed the profile of the butt leather. Action centres are free. Capstan/heel interface is lubricated.Damper spring is slightly stronger than neighbours. Damper lift is slightly earlier than neighbours. I'll add some lead at the back if I need to, but why is this the only one acting up?

Mason and Risch. Imagine it as an Aeolian. It looks like I'll be resorting to half a jiffy weight. 

What brand of piano is it ? I would check the jack with a gram gauge , replace the jack spring, check the whippen flange pinning with gram gauge, hammer return spring for strength and presence of a loop, check the balance pin hole and ease if needed- same goes for the bushings on the key button and front key mortise. polish and lubricate keypins add a little graphite using a #2 pencil on the top of the jack and burnish it on. knock a little edge off the top of the jack where it touches the butt using sandpaper or a file to round it over check to see if the balance rail is level

1941 console, C5 jack will not reset on slow release. Key droops. Lots of mass in the front of the key, light back end with no lead. I consider it a marvel that any of the jacks reset, but C5 is the only problem. Not an issue of lost motion, apparently. I smoothed the profile of the butt leather. Action centres are free. Capstan/heel interface is lubricated.Damper spring is slightly stronger than neighbours. Damper lift is slightly earlier than neighbours. I'll add some lead at the back if I need to, but why is this the only one acting up?

1941 console, C5 jack will not reset on slow release. Key droops. Lots of mass in the front of the key, light back end with no lead. I consider it a marvel that any of the jacks reset, but C5 is the only problem. Not an issue of lost motion, apparently. I smoothed the profile of the butt leather. Action centres are free. Capstan/heel interface is lubricated.Damper spring is slightly stronger than neighbours. Damper lift is slightly earlier than neighbours. I'll add some lead at the back if I need to, but why is this the only one acting up?

1941 console, C5 jack will not reset on slow release. Key droops. Lots of mass in the front of the key, light back end with no lead. I consider it a marvel that any of the jacks reset, but C5 is the only problem. Not an issue of lost motion, apparently. I smoothed the profile of the butt leather. Action centres are free. Capstan/heel interface is lubricated.Damper spring is slightly stronger than neighbours. Damper lift is slightly earlier than neighbours. I'll add some lead at the back if I need to, but why is this the only one acting up?

Floyd,

I am very familiar with this problem on this piano.

This exact topic was discussed in a fair bit of detail on the Canadian Association of Piano Technicians (CAPT) Facebook page.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2389543084459916/posts/7162248800522630/

(You may want to join this group?)

A number of ideas on how to fix this are suggested, from adding more lost motion (which will not help) or addressing a worn hammer butt, (probably won't help, it is certainly not the problem) or adding Jiffy leads to the back of the key. (This will work, but this addresses the symptom - not the problem. With respect, addressing a symptom instead of the problem is something tooners do when they can't figure out that's actually wrong.)

It is safe to assume that these pianos, however modest they are, played and repeated reasonably well when they were built.  So why would we have to add key lead now to get them to play? It makes no sense.

The problem on just about all these Mason & Risches not repeating in the treble is the wippen flange pinning.  While the wippen may drop back (seemingly) reasonably well when lifted off the key in the piano, the problem becomes apparent when we unscrew the wippen flange and remove the wippen from the action. Then is becomes apparent that the wippen flange is too tight (Sometimes the jack as well)  Repin the wippen flange and voilá - repetition reappears.

1941 console, C5 jack will not reset on slow release. Key droops. Lots of mass in the front of the key, light back end with no lead. I consider it a marvel that any of the jacks reset, but C5 is the only problem. Not an issue of lost motion, apparently. I smoothed the profile of the butt leather. Action centres are free. Capstan/heel interface is lubricated.Damper spring is slightly stronger than neighbours. Damper lift is slightly earlier than neighbours. I'll add some lead at the back if I need to, but why is this the only one acting up?

I have to add - someone stated that these are high quality pianos, well made.

Obviously this person has never seen  one of these instruments that are being discussed. It is true that M&R had a few decades early on where they built some nice full size uprights. However, most of the M&Rs still in existence are the console models, which are the subjects of this thread. They were cheap, built to a price point, with few redeeming qualities or features as a musical instrument.

Floyd,

I am very familiar with this problem on this piano.

This exact topic was discussed in a fair bit of detail on the Canadian Association of Piano Technicians (CAPT) Facebook page.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2389543084459916/posts/7162248800522630/

(You may want to join this group?)

A number of ideas on how to fix this are suggested, from adding more lost motion (which will not help) or addressing a worn hammer butt, (probably won't help, it is certainly not the problem) or adding Jiffy leads to the back of the key. (This will work, but this addresses the symptom - not the problem. With respect, addressing a symptom instead of the problem is something tooners do when they can't figure out that's actually wrong.)

It is safe to assume that these pianos, however modest they are, played and repeated reasonably well when they were built.  So why would we have to add key lead now to get them to play? It makes no sense.

The problem on just about all these Mason & Risches not repeating in the treble is the wippen flange pinning.  While the wippen may drop back (seemingly) reasonably well when lifted off the key in the piano, the problem becomes apparent when we unscrew the wippen flange and remove the wippen from the action. Then is becomes apparent that the wippen flange is too tight (Sometimes the jack as well)  Repin the wippen flange and voilá - repetition reappears.

1941 console, C5 jack will not reset on slow release. Key droops. Lots of mass in the front of the key, light back end with no lead. I consider it a marvel that any of the jacks reset, but C5 is the only problem. Not an issue of lost motion, apparently. I smoothed the profile of the butt leather. Action centres are free. Capstan/heel interface is lubricated.Damper spring is slightly stronger than neighbours. Damper lift is slightly earlier than neighbours. I'll add some lead at the back if I need to, but why is this the only one acting up?

PSO

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

I have to add - someone stated that these are high quality pianos, well made.

Obviously this person has never seen  one of these instruments that are being discussed. It is true that M&R had a few decades early on where they built some nice full size uprights. However, most of the M&Rs still in existence are the console models, which are the subjects of this thread. They were cheap, built to a price point, with few redeeming qualities or features as a musical instrument.

Floyd,

I am very familiar with this problem on this piano.

This exact topic was discussed in a fair bit of detail on the Canadian Association of Piano Technicians (CAPT) Facebook page.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2389543084459916/posts/7162248800522630/

(You may want to join this group?)

A number of ideas on how to fix this are suggested, from adding more lost motion (which will not help) or addressing a worn hammer butt, (probably won't help, it is certainly not the problem) or adding Jiffy leads to the back of the key. (This will work, but this addresses the symptom - not the problem. With respect, addressing a symptom instead of the problem is something tooners do when they can't figure out that's actually wrong.)

It is safe to assume that these pianos, however modest they are, played and repeated reasonably well when they were built.  So why would we have to add key lead now to get them to play? It makes no sense.

The problem on just about all these Mason & Risches not repeating in the treble is the wippen flange pinning.  While the wippen may drop back (seemingly) reasonably well when lifted off the key in the piano, the problem becomes apparent when we unscrew the wippen flange and remove the wippen from the action. Then is becomes apparent that the wippen flange is too tight (Sometimes the jack as well)  Repin the wippen flange and voilá - repetition reappears.

1941 console, C5 jack will not reset on slow release. Key droops. Lots of mass in the front of the key, light back end with no lead. I consider it a marvel that any of the jacks reset, but C5 is the only problem. Not an issue of lost motion, apparently. I smoothed the profile of the butt leather. Action centres are free. Capstan/heel interface is lubricated.Damper spring is slightly stronger than neighbours. Damper lift is slightly earlier than neighbours. I'll add some lead at the back if I need to, but why is this the only one acting up?

1941 console, C5 jack will not reset on slow release. Key droops. Lots of mass in the front of the key, light back end with no lead. I consider it a marvel that any of the jacks reset, but C5 is the only problem. Not an issue of lost motion, apparently. I smoothed the profile of the butt leather. Action centres are free. Capstan/heel interface is lubricated.Damper spring is slightly stronger than neighbours. Damper lift is slightly earlier than neighbours. I'll add some lead at the back if I need to, but why is this the only one acting up?

One thing not mentioned is the divot in the wippen felt.  On many pianos, if you have a sluggish action, even if you lube the capstans and wippen cushions, the larger surface area makes more friction than when new.  If you replace the wippen felt, you'll eliminate a lot of friction.  I had an otherwise nice Kawai console that had become sluggish, and I had a hard time figuring out why.  Replacing the wippen felt did the job when nothing else did.

1941 console, C5 jack will not reset on slow release. Key droops. Lots of mass in the front of the key, light back end with no lead. I consider it a marvel that any of the jacks reset, but C5 is the only problem. Not an issue of lost motion, apparently. I smoothed the profile of the butt leather. Action centres are free. Capstan/heel interface is lubricated.Damper spring is slightly stronger than neighbours. Damper lift is slightly earlier than neighbours. I'll add some lead at the back if I need to, but why is this the only one acting up?

I am grateful for the quick and helpful responses I received to my post.  I was at the piano when I sent out my question, and a bunch of your answers came back to me while the service call was still underway.

The piano was described to me as a spinet in initial correspondence, but it turned out to be a console with keysticks that had a jog in them, such that the capstan was located on a plane approximately equal to the bottom of the front of the keystick.  (Incidentally, the piano had been painted bright blue and was affectionately named "Margaret.")  I only found lead in key 88 (I did not inspect them all), and the key that was misbehaving had no lead in it at all.  The failure of jack reset did not typically occur under normal playing, but some beginning students were encountering it as an obstacle. (Yes, this is a teaching piano, but apparently only for beginners.)

The keys were front-heavy.  With the sustain pedal down and the hammer butt held out of the equation, there was not key return at all, so everything was depending on the damper, hammer return and jack springs.

Among the first things I did was remove the wippen and check the wippen and jack flanges for freedom.  Both of them were very free.  I slightly stretched the jack spring so that it would apply more force, removed a ridge from the butt leather using a sandpaper block, lubricated the butt leather with teflon, and lubricated the top of the capstan, and set damper lift slightly earlier.  These brought some improvement, but I could still set up the system for failure if I slowed down key return enough in testing. 

All of the dampers were set such that the very last short segment of the key return left the spoons free of the dampers--in playing there was a tiny bit of key motion before damper movement could be observed.  The state of the system was such that lost motion manifest as key droop, so the system was set with no discernable lost motion, though the hammers did rest on the hammer rest rail.  It seemed evident to me that for all of the notes, the last fraction of an inch of return depended entirely on the action of the jack spring.  I did remove all roughness from the jack surface, and I did knock a little edge off of the top of the jack as James suggested, but if I tried hard enough, I could still get the system to fail if I slowed down the key return enough with my finger.  Maybe the degree of wear on the butt leather sufficiently altered the shape so as to impede original function.

The wippen heel cloth had already been replaced by a previous technician trying to resolve the issue.

It turned out I had no weights with me, so for the day, I left the issue not quite resolved.  I spoke above about using a half of a jiffy weight, but what I actually intend to do is to take a piece of 1/4 inch lead "rope" and swage it into a hole I drill near the back of the key.  I don't think it will take more than one lead plug of this size to resolve the issue--things are just that close.  I suppose I could alternatively squeeze/glue a small fishing line weight onto the back check wire or the bridle wire, but that approach doesn't really sit well with me.

Thank you again everyone for chiming in so quickly.  Your timely response very much helped me in my exploration of the problem.

One thing not mentioned is the divot in the wippen felt.  On many pianos, if you have a sluggish action, even if you lube the capstans and wippen cushions, the larger surface area makes more friction than when new.  If you replace the wippen felt, you'll eliminate a lot of friction.  I had an otherwise nice Kawai console that had become sluggish, and I had a hard time figuring out why.  Replacing the wippen felt did the job when nothing else did.

1941 console, C5 jack will not reset on slow release. Key droops. Lots of mass in the front of the key, light back end with no lead. I consider it a marvel that any of the jacks reset, but C5 is the only problem. Not an issue of lost motion, apparently. I smoothed the profile of the butt leather. Action centres are free. Capstan/heel interface is lubricated.Damper spring is slightly stronger than neighbours. Damper lift is slightly earlier than neighbours. I'll add some lead at the back if I need to, but why is this the only one acting up?

Floyd, your description of the key setup exactly describes the S&C's I'm thinking of down to the one little weight at the back of key 88. But when I woke up this morning I remembered the piano that gave me this problem the most was a little Hobart M. Cable. And I forgot to mention that I strongly suspected that a contributor to the key hanging up on return were the loose balance rail bushings. Especially with the acute jog in them, if the key tilted to the side it increased friction on the bottom hole and the mating of the capstan to the bottom of the whip. As you say, by relying solely on the springs makes the whole system extremely delicate.

I'm not a fan of just fixing the symptom but after wasting much time, including a return (free) trip, I did end up putting a tiny weight towards the back of the key. 

If Mason and Rische was making these in the early 40's, they were ahead of their time. Maybe everybody was copying them.

I am grateful for the quick and helpful responses I received to my post.  I was at the piano when I sent out my question, and a bunch of your answers came back to me while the service call was still underway.

The piano was described to me as a spinet in initial correspondence, but it turned out to be a console with keysticks that had a jog in them, such that the capstan was located on a plane approximately equal to the bottom of the front of the keystick.  (Incidentally, the piano had been painted bright blue and was affectionately named "Margaret.")  I only found lead in key 88 (I did not inspect them all), and the key that was misbehaving had no lead in it at all.  The failure of jack reset did not typically occur under normal playing, but some beginning students were encountering it as an obstacle. (Yes, this is a teaching piano, but apparently only for beginners.)

The keys were front-heavy.  With the sustain pedal down and the hammer butt held out of the equation, there was not key return at all, so everything was depending on the damper, hammer return and jack springs.

Among the first things I did was remove the wippen and check the wippen and jack flanges for freedom.  Both of them were very free.  I slightly stretched the jack spring so that it would apply more force, removed a ridge from the butt leather using a sandpaper block, lubricated the butt leather with teflon, and lubricated the top of the capstan, and set damper lift slightly earlier.  These brought some improvement, but I could still set up the system for failure if I slowed down key return enough in testing. 

All of the dampers were set such that the very last short segment of the key return left the spoons free of the dampers--in playing there was a tiny bit of key motion before damper movement could be observed.  The state of the system was such that lost motion manifest as key droop, so the system was set with no discernable lost motion, though the hammers did rest on the hammer rest rail.  It seemed evident to me that for all of the notes, the last fraction of an inch of return depended entirely on the action of the jack spring.  I did remove all roughness from the jack surface, and I did knock a little edge off of the top of the jack as James suggested, but if I tried hard enough, I could still get the system to fail if I slowed down the key return enough with my finger.  Maybe the degree of wear on the butt leather sufficiently altered the shape so as to impede original function.

The wippen heel cloth had already been replaced by a previous technician trying to resolve the issue.

It turned out I had no weights with me, so for the day, I left the issue not quite resolved.  I spoke above about using a half of a jiffy weight, but what I actually intend to do is to take a piece of 1/4 inch lead "rope" and swage it into a hole I drill near the back of the key.  I don't think it will take more than one lead plug of this size to resolve the issue--things are just that close.  I suppose I could alternatively squeeze/glue a small fishing line weight onto the back check wire or the bridle wire, but that approach doesn't really sit well with me.

Thank you again everyone for chiming in so quickly.  Your timely response very much helped me in my exploration of the problem.

One thing not mentioned is the divot in the wippen felt.  On many pianos, if you have a sluggish action, even if you lube the capstans and wippen cushions, the larger surface area makes more friction than when new.  If you replace the wippen felt, you'll eliminate a lot of friction.  I had an otherwise nice Kawai console that had become sluggish, and I had a hard time figuring out why.  Replacing the wippen felt did the job when nothing else did.

1941 console, C5 jack will not reset on slow release. Key droops. Lots of mass in the front of the key, light back end with no lead. I consider it a marvel that any of the jacks reset, but C5 is the only problem. Not an issue of lost motion, apparently. I smoothed the profile of the butt leather. Action centres are free. Capstan/heel interface is lubricated.Damper spring is slightly stronger than neighbours. Damper lift is slightly earlier than neighbours. I'll add some lead at the back if I need to, but why is this the only one acting up?

I am grateful for the quick and helpful responses I received to my post.  I was at the piano when I sent out my question, and a bunch of your answers came back to me while the service call was still underway.

The piano was described to me as a spinet in initial correspondence, but it turned out to be a console with keysticks that had a jog in them, such that the capstan was located on a plane approximately equal to the bottom of the front of the keystick.  (Incidentally, the piano had been painted bright blue and was affectionately named "Margaret.")  I only found lead in key 88 (I did not inspect them all), and the key that was misbehaving had no lead in it at all.  The failure of jack reset did not typically occur under normal playing, but some beginning students were encountering it as an obstacle. (Yes, this is a teaching piano, but apparently only for beginners.)

The keys were front-heavy.  With the sustain pedal down and the hammer butt held out of the equation, there was not key return at all, so everything was depending on the damper, hammer return and jack springs.

Among the first things I did was remove the wippen and check the wippen and jack flanges for freedom.  Both of them were very free.  I slightly stretched the jack spring so that it would apply more force, removed a ridge from the butt leather using a sandpaper block, lubricated the butt leather with teflon, and lubricated the top of the capstan, and set damper lift slightly earlier.  These brought some improvement, but I could still set up the system for failure if I slowed down key return enough in testing. 

All of the dampers were set such that the very last short segment of the key return left the spoons free of the dampers--in playing there was a tiny bit of key motion before damper movement could be observed.  The state of the system was such that lost motion manifest as key droop, so the system was set with no discernable lost motion, though the hammers did rest on the hammer rest rail.  It seemed evident to me that for all of the notes, the last fraction of an inch of return depended entirely on the action of the jack spring.  I did remove all roughness from the jack surface, and I did knock a little edge off of the top of the jack as James suggested, but if I tried hard enough, I could still get the system to fail if I slowed down the key return enough with my finger.  Maybe the degree of wear on the butt leather sufficiently altered the shape so as to impede original function.

The wippen heel cloth had already been replaced by a previous technician trying to resolve the issue.

It turned out I had no weights with me, so for the day, I left the issue not quite resolved.  I spoke above about using a half of a jiffy weight, but what I actually intend to do is to take a piece of 1/4 inch lead "rope" and swage it into a hole I drill near the back of the key.  I don't think it will take more than one lead plug of this size to resolve the issue--things are just that close.  I suppose I could alternatively squeeze/glue a small fishing line weight onto the back check wire or the bridle wire, but that approach doesn't really sit well with me.

Thank you again everyone for chiming in so quickly.  Your timely response very much helped me in my exploration of the problem.

One thing not mentioned is the divot in the wippen felt.  On many pianos, if you have a sluggish action, even if you lube the capstans and wippen cushions, the larger surface area makes more friction than when new.  If you replace the wippen felt, you'll eliminate a lot of friction.  I had an otherwise nice Kawai console that had become sluggish, and I had a hard time figuring out why.  Replacing the wippen felt did the job when nothing else did.

1941 console, C5 jack will not reset on slow release. Key droops. Lots of mass in the front of the key, light back end with no lead. I consider it a marvel that any of the jacks reset, but C5 is the only problem. Not an issue of lost motion, apparently. I smoothed the profile of the butt leather. Action centres are free. Capstan/heel interface is lubricated.Damper spring is slightly stronger than neighbours. Damper lift is slightly earlier than neighbours. I'll add some lead at the back if I need to, but why is this the only one acting up?

One thing not mentioned is the divot in the wippen felt.  On many pianos, if you have a sluggish action, even if you lube the capstans and wippen cushions, the larger surface area makes more friction than when new.  If you replace the wippen felt, you'll eliminate a lot of friction.  I had an otherwise nice Kawai console that had become sluggish, and I had a hard time figuring out why.  Replacing the wippen felt did the job when nothing else did.

1941 console, C5 jack will not reset on slow release. Key droops. Lots of mass in the front of the key, light back end with no lead. I consider it a marvel that any of the jacks reset, but C5 is the only problem. Not an issue of lost motion, apparently. I smoothed the profile of the butt leather. Action centres are free. Capstan/heel interface is lubricated.Damper spring is slightly stronger than neighbours. Damper lift is slightly earlier than neighbours. I'll add some lead at the back if I need to, but why is this the only one acting up?