Pianotech

Expand all | Collapse all

Regluing ivories

  • 1.  Regluing ivories

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-04-2024 20:33

    OK, I know I should already know this but I experience it so infrequently that I forget. What's the recommended glue to use when regluing old ivories that have popped off? The customer has saved all of them. Just needs them reattached. Not that it would change anything but it's an old Baldwin grand. 

    Thanks --

    -- Geoff



    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Regluing ivories

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-04-2024 21:02
    I have been using CA glue. Put the glue on the key, spray the top and carefully put the top on the key. You only have one shot, so get it right the first time. lol.





  • 3.  RE: Regluing ivories

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-04-2024 21:48

    I second Wim's advice.  If you use a water-based glue, it will cause the ivory to curl up, unless you clamp it until it dries.  I use DAP brand CA glue, from HD.  It's thick and holds well.   I apply to the ivory, though I don't think it matters.   Don't worry if you don't have accelerator, just put it in place and press down, making sure to center it before it jells.  No need to clamp. 



    ------------------------------
    Paul McCloud, RPT
    Accutone Piano Service
    www.AccutonePianoService.com
    pavadasa@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Regluing ivories

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-04-2024 22:42

    Thank you both for your replies. This was exactly what I sort of remember. Ahhh... Modern chemistry. I have both CA and that spray other stuff with me all the time so this should be an easy task. 

    Yes, I learned the hard way not to use a water based glue. 

    Thanks --

    -- Geoff



    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Regluing ivories

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-05-2024 10:08
    I really don’t like the CA/spray approach. If there’s a way to not get the key perfectly aligned, I’ll find it. I’d have to be both good AND lucky…

    For years, I’ve used white glue with dots of thin CA and never had a problem with curling ivory or tops coming off. I get enough time to get the ivory perfectly lined up but it still clamps quickly by itself.I keep a barely damp rag on hand to clean up any glue that gets squeezed out the sides (there always is).




  • 6.  RE: Regluing ivories

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-05-2024 01:17

    I find this product works particularly well. It's a type of ca glue

    https://a.co/d/2YTMzGD



    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Regluing ivories

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-05-2024 17:10

    David,

    I saw this stuff a while back while poking around on Amazon. Wasn't sure if I wanted to try it. Good to hear a constructive report about it. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Regluing ivories

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-05-2024 01:20

    Last Thursday I worked on an ancient grand that had about 7 missing ivories.  I was able to find most of them between the keys or inside the action.  Every one of the ivories were previously repaired with CA glue.  It took me an hour to carve and scrape off the CA glue to get down to a smooth and level surface that I could re-glue.  I personally use contact cement in the field.  I have found that contact cement has a 20 year life-span under a key, but that will outlive the life of this particular piano as well as most older uprights, which is the usual situation on key repairs.

    If I was actually going to use a CA type glue I would use Gorilla clear glue (the non-expanding type).  This requires lightly spraying one surface with water and the glue requires 30 seconds to a minute to cure.  Gorilla glue has one of the best adhesions that I have tested.



    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert RPT
    Duarte CA
    (626) 390-0512
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Regluing ivories

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-05-2024 10:34

    Jumping on to second Blaine. I've also run across way too many pianos with key tops that have been super glued on and have popped off again. I also started using the Gorilla brand of super glue (blue lid, not green lid which is gel type) for keytops. No accelerant. I apply a thin spiral on the bottom of the ivory, rub it over the surface of the keytop a couple times to spread the glue, and then clamp it for a few minutes. the gorilla brand allegedly has some kind of plasticizer in it that makes the cured glue less brittle than off the shelf ca glue. 

    Glue aside, I would say that the most important thing I've learned in reattaching ivories that the customer saved is to attach each ivory wafer to the key it came from originally. It's easier than it sounds. 

    First, sort the ivory pieces by note by looking at the top edge. Look for the rounded "notch" side where each key meets the bottom of a sharp and the cleaner flatter surface where it butts up flush against the tail. Sort them into 3 groups: Cs and Fs, Es and Bs, and all the rest that have sharps on both sides (D, G, A). You can then sort this third group down to individual notes by looking at the relative lengths of the notches. D has equal lengths of sharps on both sides. G has a little longer sharp on one side vs the other, and A is the mirror of G. 

    You now have up to 5 groups. 

    Next, take each group, and go through the keys belonging to that group (eg. Cs and Es) and match each ivory to the key it came off of. Look at where it mates with the tail and make sure that lines up exactly. There will be small differences that you can see. Same goes with the key width. Finally, turn the ivory over and look at any imperfections in the way it tore off the original wafer. Sometimes bits of the original glue wafer stuck to the Ivory while most of the wafer stuck to the key. You can see when these match. When you find the right match, the ivory will almost snap into place, and you won't be able to slide it side-to-side easily. It will just fit. That makes gluing so much easier that it's definitely worth the trouble, and the piano will look better when you're through. 

    The exception is when you're regluing Ivory that has already been reglued in the past and has popped off again. In that case using the roughness on the bottom to mate isn't going to work. In that case, I file the bottom of each ivory and the top of each key somewhat to get a smooth gluing surface and mate the tops as best I can, because the previous person most likely didn't go to the trouble of matching the ivory to the original keys. 



    ------------------------------
    Anthony Willey, RPT
    http://willeypianotuning.com
    http://pianometer.com
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Regluing ivories

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-05-2024 10:40

    You have already gotten helpful replies, but I thought I would add this:  I never use the accelerant.  I use the medium viscosity CA glue.  After sanding off old glue on the key and ivory, I apply it to the key, and then put the ivory on.  I have 5-10 seconds to position the ivory just right before it starts to set.  I usually do this with the key in the piano, with the key propped up so that I can apply pressure to the ivory; this helps me position it correctly, especially if adjacent keys have tops that are a bit off center.  It's also fine to do it out of the piano.  It only takes about 20 seconds of manual pressure to get the ivory to glue to the key.  It's slightly quicker to use accelerant, but I would be worried about having an incorrect position.  Have fun with it.






  • 11.  RE: Regluing ivories

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-05-2024 10:54

    When it was available, I used Coleman's CA glue which is much stronger than most CA glues.  But I will admit it didn't always hold.  I was using it and keeping the white linen glue wafers in place.  The thing is, you want the head piece and the tail piece to end up flush. Removing the glue wafer is a trip, but if you do the two pieces will not be flush.

    Since they are translucent, you need to paint white under the ivory.  I used White-Out first, as it dries fast, then glue the ivory pieces on.  When it dries, it gives some biting surface for the glue.  If you still have the glue wafers on the key, and it's recently popped off, if they can be reactivated, that would be best.  I admit I've not had much luck with that, and any suggestions how to accomplish it would be welcome. 

    Using rubber cement makes the ivory look dark.  With plastic tops, I guess it doesn't matter, but they'll later pop off after some time, and getting that stuff off is a pain if you have to do it over.



    ------------------------------
    Paul McCloud, RPT
    Accutone Piano Service
    www.AccutonePianoService.com
    pavadasa@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Regluing ivories

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-05-2024 12:52

    Weldwood makes a positionable (3mins) ca glue for wood. It's amber in color. Here  it's much less expensive than most ca's.

    In the past people spoke of putting ca on one surface and white glue on the other, the white glue slowed the bonding process.



    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal RPT
    Honolulu HI
    (808) 521-7129
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Regluing ivories

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-10-2024 21:32

    Somewhere along the way I got the idea in my head that using a very hard glue like CA risked splitting the ivory, because it expands and contacts differently from the wood. For that reason when I have needed a quick fix, I've just kinda "tacked" it down at the corners with CA. That way if something gives hopefully it'll be one of the glue joints not the ivory.

    I've tried CA+PVC-E glue but found it still tended to warp the key a bit.

    Fastcap Speed Tape is a good option for plastic keys... Does anyone use it for ivory? I haven't tried it.

    At any rate, these days I usually try to do it the old school way with wafers, clamps, and PVC-E glue... I'd rather have it work for sure the first time.



    ------------------------------
    Nathan Monteleone RPT
    Fort Worth TX
    (817) 675-9494
    nbmont@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Regluing ivories

    Member
    Posted 11-12-2024 11:41

    I recently glued about 1/2 of the white key ivory heads and used the clamps and pvce-glue or a key glue I purchased from a supplier. Ivory is transparent and will also warp from too much glue. I will paint the wood on the keystick after scraping the old glue off with a single edge razor blade. I also scrape the glue off the linen wafer . The best white in my opinion is a white titanium oil that comes in a tube which you can find in Michael's or an art supply store



    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Regluing ivories

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-12-2024 11:46
    Was the linen only necessary back in the days when they were using harder glues?  Does the permanent flexibility of PVC-E remove the need for it?







  • 16.  RE: Regluing ivories

    Member
    Posted 11-12-2024 21:36

    i BELIEVE THERE IS OR WAS A GLUE IN THE LINEN WAFERS. tHEY PREVENT THE BROWN COLOR OF THE KEY STICK FROM SHOWING THROUGH THE TRANSLUCENT IVORY i DO NOT USE ca ON KEYTOPS  BECAUSE IT SETS UP INSTANTLY.  I had to reglue some plastic keytops on a piano right before a concert and used E6000 which is a gel in a tube , flexible, paintable . it is a good addition to your emergency repair kit



    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Regluing ivories

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-13-2024 11:43

    Greetings All --

    Just wanted to report back on the keytop replacement job. Almost all of the keytops had popped off. Fortunately the owner had saved every one of them. These were two part keytops and the long back part on most of them was still OK. The piano is a 1925 Baldwin baby grand, and it was obvious that these keytops had been replaced perhaps several times before in the past. I could see signs of contact cement, white glue, new wafers, and CA glue repairs. After sorting I found that they did not need further cleaning of old glue as every one of them already had a nice clean fit. I very lightly sprayed the key with plain water then put a very small amount of blue top Gorilla CA glue on the keytop. Just small drops scattered around without further spreading the CA glue over the entire surface. I aligned the keytop up with the key and pressed down for about 20 seconds and the top was solidly back in place. Probably replaced about 75 tops and the job took about an hour. Thanks to all for your suggestions. Helped a lot. 



    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
    ------------------------------