Pianotech

The local dealer owns a Steinway D circa 1975, the under levers need to be replaced due to a lead bloom problem. Steinway can only provide the modern under levers which use rosette flanges unlike the '75 version; also, the old D has assist springs (at least in the bass) that push down on the under levers which have a groove in them to accommodate the springs. The modern version has no groove and apparently the springs have been eliminated in the newer pianos.
Has anyone dealt with this disparity and come up with the best solution? (have not gotten clear guidance from S&S)
Thanks in advance.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129
------------------------------

Hi, Wim,

The piano is owned by a Steinway dealer.

Would installing a non-S&S back action be prudent for either the dealer
or Steven without prior written authorization from Steinway?

Kind regards.

Horace


Original Message:
Sent: 1/11/2023 6:13:00 PM
From: Wim Blees
Subject: RE: S&S underlever problem

Steve

Renner has a universal back action kit. You have to do all the measuring, drilling and assembly, but it works very well. I've done several over the years. 

 

Phil is in Australia until the end of January, but you might want to ask him if he has done one before.

Wim

Original Message:
Sent: 1/11/2023 6:24:00 PM
From: Horace Greeley
Subject: RE: S&S underlever problem

Hi, Wim,

The piano is owned by a Steinway dealer.

Would installing a non-S&S back action be prudent for either the dealer
or Steven without prior written authorization from Steinway?

Kind regards.

Horace

Actually Steinway offers the underlevers, whole back action w/under levers installed, also lead weights for repairing old under levers.
It's now looking to me like, per Ed's advice, refurbishing the old ones are probably the best way to go without risking additional repercussions. 
What Steinway didn't do was address dealing with the difference between the old and new configurations.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-11-2023 18:37
From: Wim Blees
Subject: S&S underlever problem

Horace

Steinway is not offering any solutions. Unless they are willing to replace the whole piano, there is no other solution. 

Wim

Original Message:
Sent: 1/11/2023 6:24:00 PM
From: Horace Greeley
Subject: RE: S&S underlever problem

Hi, Wim,

The piano is owned by a Steinway dealer.

Would installing a non-S&S back action be prudent for either the dealer
or Steven without prior written authorization from Steinway?

Kind regards.

Horace



Original Message:
Sent: 1/11/2023 6:13:00 PM
From: Wim Blees
Subject: RE: S&S underlever problem

Steve

Renner has a universal back action kit. You have to do all the measuring, drilling and assembly, but it works very well. I've done several over the years. 

 

Phil is in Australia until the end of January, but you might want to ask him if he has done one before.

Wim

Original Message:
Sent: 1/11/2023 7:24:00 PM
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: RE: S&S underlever problem

Actually Steinway offers the underlevers, whole back action w/under levers installed, also lead weights for repairing old under levers.
It's now looking to me like, per Ed's advice, refurbishing the old ones are probably the best way to go without risking additional repercussions. 
What Steinway didn't do was address dealing with the difference between the old and new configurations.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-11-2023 18:37
From: Wim Blees
Subject: S&S underlever problem

Horace

Steinway is not offering any solutions. Unless they are willing to replace the whole piano, there is no other solution. 

Wim

Original Message:
Sent: 1/11/2023 6:24:00 PM
From: Horace Greeley
Subject: RE: S&S underlever problem

Hi, Wim,

The piano is owned by a Steinway dealer.

Would installing a non-S&S back action be prudent for either the dealer
or Steven without prior written authorization from Steinway?

Kind regards.

Horace

Steve,

Aside from the lead it seems to appear (from what you wrote) that the original system is fine...yes?  No splitting of levers has yet occurred?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-11-2023 22:14
From: Wim Blees
Subject: S&S underlever problem

If Steinway is willing to get you a new back action, I would take it. I've replaced a few of them, too, and it was remarkably easy. It fit right in, and I had to do very little wire bending. 

Original Message:
Sent: 1/11/2023 7:24:00 PM
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: RE: S&S underlever problem

Actually Steinway offers the underlevers, whole back action w/under levers installed, also lead weights for repairing old under levers.
It's now looking to me like, per Ed's advice, refurbishing the old ones are probably the best way to go without risking additional repercussions.
What Steinway didn't do was address dealing with the difference between the old and new configurations.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-11-2023 18:37
From: Wim Blees
Subject: S&S underlever problem

Horace

Steinway is not offering any solutions. Unless they are willing to replace the whole piano, there is no other solution. 

Wim

Original Message:
Sent: 1/11/2023 6:24:00 PM
From: Horace Greeley
Subject: RE: S&S underlever problem

Hi, Wim,

The piano is owned by a Steinway dealer.

Would installing a non-S&S back action be prudent for either the dealer
or Steven without prior written authorization from Steinway?

Kind regards.

Horace



Original Message:
Sent: 1/11/2023 6:13:00 PM
From: Wim Blees
Subject: RE: S&S underlever problem

Steve

Renner has a universal back action kit. You have to do all the measuring, drilling and assembly, but it works very well. I've done several over the years. 

 

Phil is in Australia until the end of January, but you might want to ask him if he has done one before.

Wim

Unless there are other issues with the damper tray, Ed's solution is the easiest, least time consuming and least expensive way to go. 

If it is a teflon back action, you will want to check the pinning for tightness once you remove the tray.  I did replace a Steinway L back action from that era because the centers were becoming sluggish and freezing up.

------------------------------
Will Truitt
Bristol NH
1-603-934-4882
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-12-2023 06:29
From: Peter Grey
Subject: S&S underlever problem

Steve,

Aside from the lead it seems to appear (from what you wrote) that the original system is fine...yes?  No splitting of levers has yet occurred?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-11-2023 22:14
From: Wim Blees
Subject: S&S underlever problem

If Steinway is willing to get you a new back action, I would take it. I've replaced a few of them, too, and it was remarkably easy. It fit right in, and I had to do very little wire bending. 

Original Message:
Sent: 1/11/2023 7:24:00 PM
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: RE: S&S underlever problem

Actually Steinway offers the underlevers, whole back action w/under levers installed, also lead weights for repairing old under levers.
It's now looking to me like, per Ed's advice, refurbishing the old ones are probably the best way to go without risking additional repercussions.
What Steinway didn't do was address dealing with the difference between the old and new configurations.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129


Original Message:
Sent: 01-11-2023 18:37
From: Wim Blees
Subject: S&S underlever problem

Horace

Steinway is not offering any solutions. Unless they are willing to replace the whole piano, there is no other solution. 

Wim

Original Message:
Sent: 1/11/2023 6:24:00 PM
From: Horace Greeley
Subject: RE: S&S underlever problem

Hi, Wim,

The piano is owned by a Steinway dealer.

Would installing a non-S&S back action be prudent for either the dealer
or Steven without prior written authorization from Steinway?

Kind regards.

Horace



Original Message:
Sent: 1/11/2023 6:13:00 PM
From: Wim Blees
Subject: RE: S&S underlever problem

Steve

Renner has a universal back action kit. You have to do all the measuring, drilling and assembly, but it works very well. I've done several over the years. 

 

Phil is in Australia until the end of January, but you might want to ask him if he has done one before.

Wim

There are many issues here. I have experience with dozens of Steinway back actions from ‘78-‘79, a similar vintage to your ‘75 instrument. If the back action is original, then it has teflon action centers. In my Kansas City world (I know the climate in HI might provide differing considerations) I would not even consider extensive repairs to a teflon back action. Here, action parts with teflon simply _must_ be replaced.

Also, if the back action is original parts with teflon, then the underlevers are likely “short-arm” underlevers. The supply chain issues may have wreaked havoc, but Pianotek at one time could provide direct replacements for the short-arm underlevers; you could check to see what the current situation is.

If Steinway parts are a must, since I would never consider replacing the leads in a teflon back action, and since current underlevers have a different shaped flange _and_ a different length arm, the only Steinway option might be a complete new back action. The new back action could probably be made to work, but do not dismiss the complications of fitting a back action with longer arms when the original had short-arm underlevers.

It seems to me that the most straight-forward option would be direct replacement of the short-arm underlevers (I think they were from Tokiwa), if such are available.


Original Message:
Sent: 1/11/2023 7:24:00 PM
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: RE: S&S underlever problem

Actually Steinway offers the underlevers, whole back action w/under levers installed, also lead weights for repairing old under levers.
It's now looking to me like, per Ed's advice, refurbishing the old ones are probably the best way to go without risking additional repercussions. 
What Steinway didn't do was address dealing with the difference between the old and new configurations.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-11-2023 18:37
From: Wim Blees
Subject: S&S underlever problem

Horace

Steinway is not offering any solutions. Unless they are willing to replace the whole piano, there is no other solution. 

Wim

Original Message:
Sent: 1/11/2023 6:24:00 PM
From: Horace Greeley
Subject: RE: S&S underlever problem

Hi, Wim,

The piano is owned by a Steinway dealer.

Would installing a non-S&S back action be prudent for either the dealer
or Steven without prior written authorization from Steinway?

Kind regards.

Horace

Thanks for all of this good advice. I'm trying to avoid falling into a rabbit hole, or at least be able to select which potential pitfall I might encounter.
Peter, the damping system is working well at this point but the reason I found the problem (on a routine tuning) was that one bass damper refused to go down all the way because it was beginning to split. I think that at this point the other levers are intact.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-12-2023 10:07
From: Kent Swafford
Subject: S&S underlever problem

There are many issues here. I have experience with dozens of Steinway back actions from '78-'79, a similar vintage to your '75 instrument. If the back action is original, then it has teflon action centers. In my Kansas City world (I know the climate in HI might provide differing considerations) I would not even consider extensive repairs to a teflon back action. Here, action parts with teflon simply _must_ be replaced.

Also, if the back action is original parts with teflon, then the underlevers are likely "short-arm" underlevers. The supply chain issues may have wreaked havoc, but Pianotek at one time could provide direct replacements for the short-arm underlevers; you could check to see what the current situation is.

If Steinway parts are a must, since I would never consider replacing the leads in a teflon back action, and since current underlevers have a different shaped flange _and_ a different length arm, the only Steinway option might be a complete new back action. The new back action could probably be made to work, but do not dismiss the complications of fitting a back action with longer arms when the original had short-arm underlevers.

It seems to me that the most straight-forward option would be direct replacement of the short-arm underlevers (I think they were from Tokiwa), if such are available.



Original Message:
Sent: 1/11/2023 7:24:00 PM
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: RE: S&S underlever problem

Actually Steinway offers the underlevers, whole back action w/under levers installed, also lead weights for repairing old under levers.
It's now looking to me like, per Ed's advice, refurbishing the old ones are probably the best way to go without risking additional repercussions.
What Steinway didn't do was address dealing with the difference between the old and new configurations.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-11-2023 18:37
From: Wim Blees
Subject: S&S underlever problem

Horace

Steinway is not offering any solutions. Unless they are willing to replace the whole piano, there is no other solution. 

Wim

Original Message:
Sent: 1/11/2023 6:24:00 PM
From: Horace Greeley
Subject: RE: S&S underlever problem

Hi, Wim,

The piano is owned by a Steinway dealer.

Would installing a non-S&S back action be prudent for either the dealer
or Steven without prior written authorization from Steinway?

Kind regards.

Horace



Original Message:
Sent: 1/11/2023 6:13:00 PM
From: Wim Blees
Subject: RE: S&S underlever problem

Steve

Renner has a universal back action kit. You have to do all the measuring, drilling and assembly, but it works very well. I've done several over the years. 

 

Phil is in Australia until the end of January, but you might want to ask him if he has done one before.

Wim

Original Message:
Sent: 1/12/2023 2:41:00 PM
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: RE: S&S underlever problem

Thanks for all of this good advice. I'm trying to avoid falling into a rabbit hole, or at least be able to select which potential pitfall I might encounter.
Peter, the damping system is working well at this point but the reason I found the problem (on a routine tuning) was that one bass damper refused to go down all the way because it was beginning to split. I think that at this point the other levers are intact.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-12-2023 10:07
From: Kent Swafford
Subject: S&S underlever problem

There are many issues here. I have experience with dozens of Steinway back actions from '78-'79, a similar vintage to your '75 instrument. If the back action is original, then it has teflon action centers. In my Kansas City world (I know the climate in HI might provide differing considerations) I would not even consider extensive repairs to a teflon back action. Here, action parts with teflon simply _must_ be replaced.

Also, if the back action is original parts with teflon, then the underlevers are likely "short-arm" underlevers. The supply chain issues may have wreaked havoc, but Pianotek at one time could provide direct replacements for the short-arm underlevers; you could check to see what the current situation is.

If Steinway parts are a must, since I would never consider replacing the leads in a teflon back action, and since current underlevers have a different shaped flange _and_ a different length arm, the only Steinway option might be a complete new back action. The new back action could probably be made to work, but do not dismiss the complications of fitting a back action with longer arms when the original had short-arm underlevers.

It seems to me that the most straight-forward option would be direct replacement of the short-arm underlevers (I think they were from Tokiwa), if such are available.



Original Message:
Sent: 1/11/2023 7:24:00 PM
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: RE: S&S underlever problem

Actually Steinway offers the underlevers, whole back action w/under levers installed, also lead weights for repairing old under levers.
It's now looking to me like, per Ed's advice, refurbishing the old ones are probably the best way to go without risking additional repercussions.
What Steinway didn't do was address dealing with the difference between the old and new configurations.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-11-2023 18:37
From: Wim Blees
Subject: S&S underlever problem

Horace

Steinway is not offering any solutions. Unless they are willing to replace the whole piano, there is no other solution. 

Wim

Original Message:
Sent: 1/11/2023 6:24:00 PM
From: Horace Greeley
Subject: RE: S&S underlever problem

Hi, Wim,

The piano is owned by a Steinway dealer.

Would installing a non-S&S back action be prudent for either the dealer
or Steven without prior written authorization from Steinway?

Kind regards.

Horace

Wim, he has a new D and doesn't want to send it out to get banged up and devalued, it just doesn't pencil out in this tiny market. He's doing the community a favor by being willing to invest in this old one to keep it going.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-12-2023 14:48
From: Wim Blees
Subject: S&S underlever problem

Steve

If George owns this piano and uses it for rental, and if it indeed has Teflon action parts, as Kent suggests, perhaps it's time for him to consider getting a new D. Maybe S&S will help him. After all, he's the only Steinway dealer in the state, if not the entire South Pacific. 

Wim 

Original Message:
Sent: 1/12/2023 2:41:00 PM
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: RE: S&S underlever problem

Thanks for all of this good advice. I'm trying to avoid falling into a rabbit hole, or at least be able to select which potential pitfall I might encounter.
Peter, the damping system is working well at this point but the reason I found the problem (on a routine tuning) was that one bass damper refused to go down all the way because it was beginning to split. I think that at this point the other levers are intact.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-12-2023 10:07
From: Kent Swafford
Subject: S&S underlever problem

There are many issues here. I have experience with dozens of Steinway back actions from '78-'79, a similar vintage to your '75 instrument. If the back action is original, then it has teflon action centers. In my Kansas City world (I know the climate in HI might provide differing considerations) I would not even consider extensive repairs to a teflon back action. Here, action parts with teflon simply _must_ be replaced.

Also, if the back action is original parts with teflon, then the underlevers are likely "short-arm" underlevers. The supply chain issues may have wreaked havoc, but Pianotek at one time could provide direct replacements for the short-arm underlevers; you could check to see what the current situation is.

If Steinway parts are a must, since I would never consider replacing the leads in a teflon back action, and since current underlevers have a different shaped flange _and_ a different length arm, the only Steinway option might be a complete new back action. The new back action could probably be made to work, but do not dismiss the complications of fitting a back action with longer arms when the original had short-arm underlevers.

It seems to me that the most straight-forward option would be direct replacement of the short-arm underlevers (I think they were from Tokiwa), if such are available.



Original Message:
Sent: 1/11/2023 7:24:00 PM
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: RE: S&S underlever problem

Actually Steinway offers the underlevers, whole back action w/under levers installed, also lead weights for repairing old under levers.
It's now looking to me like, per Ed's advice, refurbishing the old ones are probably the best way to go without risking additional repercussions.
What Steinway didn't do was address dealing with the difference between the old and new configurations.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129


Original Message:
Sent: 01-11-2023 18:37
From: Wim Blees
Subject: S&S underlever problem

Horace

Steinway is not offering any solutions. Unless they are willing to replace the whole piano, there is no other solution. 

Wim

Original Message:
Sent: 1/11/2023 6:24:00 PM
From: Horace Greeley
Subject: RE: S&S underlever problem

Hi, Wim,

The piano is owned by a Steinway dealer.

Would installing a non-S&S back action be prudent for either the dealer
or Steven without prior written authorization from Steinway?

Kind regards.

Horace



Original Message:
Sent: 1/11/2023 6:13:00 PM
From: Wim Blees
Subject: RE: S&S underlever problem

Steve

Renner has a universal back action kit. You have to do all the measuring, drilling and assembly, but it works very well. I've done several over the years. 

 

Phil is in Australia until the end of January, but you might want to ask him if he has done one before.

Wim