Pianotech

Loren Kelley,

There are no screws holding the damper underlevers to the damper tray in Steinways of that vintage. The underlevers are glued to the back rail of the tray. You will need to remove the 67 dampers, remove the tray from the action cavity, pop off the offending underlevers, correct the pinning, reglue the underlevers to the tray, reinstall the tray, then reinstall the dampers.While you're there, douse all the action centers with Protek. And if you really wish to get excited, drill and install 67 #4 wood screws for each underlever backflange to reinforce the 110-year old glue joints.

Great factory design, eh?

David G. Hughes, RPT

P.S. You mentioned "remove the sostenuto rod". Is this a Hamburg Steinway?

------------------------------
David Hughes RPT
Vintage Case Parts
Glyndon MD
(443) 522-2201
------------------------------

Loren, as David points out, the underlever flanges are glued in place. The stuff that nightmares are made from.

I have never used Fantastik, but judging from the multiple comments in this venue on its use (including in the recent "Piano Life Saver" thread and in the April 2022 Journal article on its use) I would think that its use would be high up on the list of options for you. Use a small artist's paint brush if you can't use an oiler.

However, I also passed the use of Fantastik through ChatGPT and I agree with its reasoning (see below). The key appears to be time – how long does one figure on the "solution" lasting. You can use Fantastik now and "kick the can down the road". Regards, Norman.

- - - -

Q to ChatGPT: "piano center pins suffer from a corrosion of the bronze pins called "verdigris" that causes a tightness of their motion. Does it make sense that application of a product called Fantastik can give permanent relief?"

A from ChatGPT: The idea that Fantastik, a household cleaner, could provide permanent relief from verdigris (the green corrosion that forms on copper or bronze alloys like those in piano center pins) is not scientifically sound for the following reasons:

1. Fantastik is not designed for metal corrosion

Fantastik is a general-purpose household cleaner, mostly intended for removing grease and grime from surfaces like countertops and appliances. It typically contains surfactants, solvents, and sometimes mild disinfectants-not corrosion inhibitors or materials formulated to deal with metal oxidation.

2. Verdigris is a chemical corrosion process

Verdigris is caused by copper reacting with moisture, oxygen, and other environmental contaminants (e.g., acetic acid from wood glues or humidity). Cleaning the pins with Fantastik might temporarily remove surface grime or lubricate the joint, making the pin seem freer, but it does not stop the corrosion process or reverse any mechanical damage caused by swelling or pitting.

3. Piano technicians don't recommend it

In the piano industry, dealing with tight or verdigris-affected center pins typically involves:

• Replacing the bushings or pins

• Cleaning the pin and flange bore with specialized solvents (e.g., naphtha or denatured alcohol)

• Using materials like PTFE powders, appropriate oils, or Teflon-based products, all applied cautiously

4. "Permanent relief" is misleading

Even professional-grade corrosion inhibitors don't offer permanent relief without addressing the root cause (e.g., high humidity, chemical reactions with wood, etc.). If verdigris has formed once, the environment is likely conducive to it forming again unless corrected.

Conclusion:

Using Fantastik might superficially improve motion by cleaning surface contaminants or temporarily reducing friction, but it does not treat the root cause and won't offer permanent relief from verdigris. For long-term repair, the correct procedure involves professional cleaning, pin replacement, or proper humidity control.

If you're experiencing verdigris issues with your piano's action, it's best to consult a professional piano technician.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-15-2025 08:06
From: David Hughes
Subject: Steinway O from 1917 - removing damper levers

Loren Kelley,

There are no screws holding the damper underlevers to the damper tray in Steinways of that vintage. The underlevers are glued to the back rail of the tray. You will need to remove the 67 dampers, remove the tray from the action cavity, pop off the offending underlevers, correct the pinning, reglue the underlevers to the tray, reinstall the tray, then reinstall the dampers.While you're there, douse all the action centers with Protek. And if you really wish to get excited, drill and install 67 #4 wood screws for each underlever backflange to reinforce the 110-year old glue joints.

Great factory design, eh?

David G. Hughes, RPT

P.S. You mentioned "remove the sostenuto rod". Is this a Hamburg Steinway?

------------------------------
David Hughes RPT
Vintage Case Parts
Glyndon MD
(443) 522-2201

I believe that Hamburg Steinway still uses this design. You will need to remove entire assembly in order to properly service one underlever.

Loren, as David points out, the underlever flanges are glued in place. The stuff that nightmares are made from.

I have never used Fantastik, but judging from the multiple comments in this venue on its use (including in the recent "Piano Life Saver" thread and in the April 2022 Journal article on its use) I would think that its use would be high up on the list of options for you. Use a small artist's paint brush if you can't use an oiler.

However, I also passed the use of Fantastik through ChatGPT and I agree with its reasoning (see below). The key appears to be time – how long does one figure on the "solution" lasting. You can use Fantastik now and "kick the can down the road". Regards, Norman.

- - - -

Q to ChatGPT: "piano center pins suffer from a corrosion of the bronze pins called "verdigris" that causes a tightness of their motion. Does it make sense that application of a product called Fantastik can give permanent relief?"

A from ChatGPT: The idea that Fantastik, a household cleaner, could provide permanent relief from verdigris (the green corrosion that forms on copper or bronze alloys like those in piano center pins) is not scientifically sound for the following reasons:

1. Fantastik is not designed for metal corrosion

Fantastik is a general-purpose household cleaner, mostly intended for removing grease and grime from surfaces like countertops and appliances. It typically contains surfactants, solvents, and sometimes mild disinfectants-not corrosion inhibitors or materials formulated to deal with metal oxidation.

2. Verdigris is a chemical corrosion process

Verdigris is caused by copper reacting with moisture, oxygen, and other environmental contaminants (e.g., acetic acid from wood glues or humidity). Cleaning the pins with Fantastik might temporarily remove surface grime or lubricate the joint, making the pin seem freer, but it does not stop the corrosion process or reverse any mechanical damage caused by swelling or pitting.

3. Piano technicians don't recommend it

In the piano industry, dealing with tight or verdigris-affected center pins typically involves:

• Replacing the bushings or pins

• Cleaning the pin and flange bore with specialized solvents (e.g., naphtha or denatured alcohol)

• Using materials like PTFE powders, appropriate oils, or Teflon-based products, all applied cautiously

4. "Permanent relief" is misleading

Even professional-grade corrosion inhibitors don't offer permanent relief without addressing the root cause (e.g., high humidity, chemical reactions with wood, etc.). If verdigris has formed once, the environment is likely conducive to it forming again unless corrected.

Conclusion:

Using Fantastik might superficially improve motion by cleaning surface contaminants or temporarily reducing friction, but it does not treat the root cause and won't offer permanent relief from verdigris. For long-term repair, the correct procedure involves professional cleaning, pin replacement, or proper humidity control.

If you're experiencing verdigris issues with your piano's action, it's best to consult a professional piano technician.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
------------------------------

Loren, as David points out, the underlever flanges are glued in place. The stuff that nightmares are made from.

I have never used Fantastik, but judging from the multiple comments in this venue on its use (including in the recent "Piano Life Saver" thread and in the April 2022 Journal article on its use) I would think that its use would be high up on the list of options for you. Use a small artist's paint brush if you can't use an oiler.

However, I also passed the use of Fantastik through ChatGPT and I agree with its reasoning (see below). The key appears to be time – how long does one figure on the "solution" lasting. You can use Fantastik now and "kick the can down the road". Regards, Norman.

- - - -

Q to ChatGPT: "piano center pins suffer from a corrosion of the bronze pins called "verdigris" that causes a tightness of their motion. Does it make sense that application of a product called Fantastik can give permanent relief?"

A from ChatGPT: The idea that Fantastik, a household cleaner, could provide permanent relief from verdigris (the green corrosion that forms on copper or bronze alloys like those in piano center pins) is not scientifically sound for the following reasons:

1. Fantastik is not designed for metal corrosion

Fantastik is a general-purpose household cleaner, mostly intended for removing grease and grime from surfaces like countertops and appliances. It typically contains surfactants, solvents, and sometimes mild disinfectants-not corrosion inhibitors or materials formulated to deal with metal oxidation.

2. Verdigris is a chemical corrosion process

Verdigris is caused by copper reacting with moisture, oxygen, and other environmental contaminants (e.g., acetic acid from wood glues or humidity). Cleaning the pins with Fantastik might temporarily remove surface grime or lubricate the joint, making the pin seem freer, but it does not stop the corrosion process or reverse any mechanical damage caused by swelling or pitting.

3. Piano technicians don't recommend it

In the piano industry, dealing with tight or verdigris-affected center pins typically involves:

• Replacing the bushings or pins

• Cleaning the pin and flange bore with specialized solvents (e.g., naphtha or denatured alcohol)

• Using materials like PTFE powders, appropriate oils, or Teflon-based products, all applied cautiously

4. "Permanent relief" is misleading

Even professional-grade corrosion inhibitors don't offer permanent relief without addressing the root cause (e.g., high humidity, chemical reactions with wood, etc.). If verdigris has formed once, the environment is likely conducive to it forming again unless corrected.

Conclusion:

Using Fantastik might superficially improve motion by cleaning surface contaminants or temporarily reducing friction, but it does not treat the root cause and won't offer permanent relief from verdigris. For long-term repair, the correct procedure involves professional cleaning, pin replacement, or proper humidity control.

If you're experiencing verdigris issues with your piano's action, it's best to consult a professional piano technician.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-15-2025 08:06
From: David Hughes
Subject: Steinway O from 1917 - removing damper levers

Loren Kelley,

There are no screws holding the damper underlevers to the damper tray in Steinways of that vintage. The underlevers are glued to the back rail of the tray. You will need to remove the 67 dampers, remove the tray from the action cavity, pop off the offending underlevers, correct the pinning, reglue the underlevers to the tray, reinstall the tray, then reinstall the dampers.While you're there, douse all the action centers with Protek. And if you really wish to get excited, drill and install 67 #4 wood screws for each underlever backflange to reinforce the 110-year old glue joints.

Great factory design, eh?

David G. Hughes, RPT

P.S. You mentioned "remove the sostenuto rod". Is this a Hamburg Steinway?

------------------------------
David Hughes RPT
Vintage Case Parts
Glyndon MD
(443) 522-2201

Norman,

Though we may never know exactly what was used on Steinway parts it was likely some sort of natural oil which is made of fatty acids.

Over time these oils can break down creating a fatty group, basically a chain of carbons and hydrogens like in our hydrocarbon fuels and an acetate group, which is acetic acid (as in vinegar).  The acetic acid reacts with the copper in our brass flange pins creating copper acetate, also known as verdigris.

A strong base like ammonia can neutralize the acetic acid and even reverse the verdigris (try it).  Fantastic contains either ammonia or a similar base as well as detergents that can remove some of the oils and might provide some temporary relief and water that might shrink the flanges and felt.  Because the wood is well saturated with oil only a long soak in ammonia would remove enough of the acidic oil and the bushing felts might be degraded to uselessness.

Replacing the affected parts is still the only real solution.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 390-0512
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-15-2025 11:00
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Steinway O from 1917 - removing damper levers

Loren, as David points out, the underlever flanges are glued in place. The stuff that nightmares are made from.

I have never used Fantastik, but judging from the multiple comments in this venue on its use (including in the recent "Piano Life Saver" thread and in the April 2022 Journal article on its use) I would think that its use would be high up on the list of options for you. Use a small artist's paint brush if you can't use an oiler.

However, I also passed the use of Fantastik through ChatGPT and I agree with its reasoning (see below). The key appears to be time – how long does one figure on the "solution" lasting. You can use Fantastik now and "kick the can down the road". Regards, Norman.

- - - -

Q to ChatGPT: "piano center pins suffer from a corrosion of the bronze pins called "verdigris" that causes a tightness of their motion. Does it make sense that application of a product called Fantastik can give permanent relief?"

A from ChatGPT: The idea that Fantastik, a household cleaner, could provide permanent relief from verdigris (the green corrosion that forms on copper or bronze alloys like those in piano center pins) is not scientifically sound for the following reasons:

1. Fantastik is not designed for metal corrosion

Fantastik is a general-purpose household cleaner, mostly intended for removing grease and grime from surfaces like countertops and appliances. It typically contains surfactants, solvents, and sometimes mild disinfectants-not corrosion inhibitors or materials formulated to deal with metal oxidation.

2. Verdigris is a chemical corrosion process

Verdigris is caused by copper reacting with moisture, oxygen, and other environmental contaminants (e.g., acetic acid from wood glues or humidity). Cleaning the pins with Fantastik might temporarily remove surface grime or lubricate the joint, making the pin seem freer, but it does not stop the corrosion process or reverse any mechanical damage caused by swelling or pitting.

3. Piano technicians don't recommend it

In the piano industry, dealing with tight or verdigris-affected center pins typically involves:

• Replacing the bushings or pins

• Cleaning the pin and flange bore with specialized solvents (e.g., naphtha or denatured alcohol)

• Using materials like PTFE powders, appropriate oils, or Teflon-based products, all applied cautiously

4. "Permanent relief" is misleading

Even professional-grade corrosion inhibitors don't offer permanent relief without addressing the root cause (e.g., high humidity, chemical reactions with wood, etc.). If verdigris has formed once, the environment is likely conducive to it forming again unless corrected.

Conclusion:

Using Fantastik might superficially improve motion by cleaning surface contaminants or temporarily reducing friction, but it does not treat the root cause and won't offer permanent relief from verdigris. For long-term repair, the correct procedure involves professional cleaning, pin replacement, or proper humidity control.

If you're experiencing verdigris issues with your piano's action, it's best to consult a professional piano technician.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321


Original Message:
Sent: 05-15-2025 08:06
From: David Hughes
Subject: Steinway O from 1917 - removing damper levers

Loren Kelley,

There are no screws holding the damper underlevers to the damper tray in Steinways of that vintage. The underlevers are glued to the back rail of the tray. You will need to remove the 67 dampers, remove the tray from the action cavity, pop off the offending underlevers, correct the pinning, reglue the underlevers to the tray, reinstall the tray, then reinstall the dampers.While you're there, douse all the action centers with Protek. And if you really wish to get excited, drill and install 67 #4 wood screws for each underlever backflange to reinforce the 110-year old glue joints.

Great factory design, eh?

David G. Hughes, RPT

P.S. You mentioned "remove the sostenuto rod". Is this a Hamburg Steinway?

------------------------------
David Hughes RPT
Vintage Case Parts
Glyndon MD
(443) 522-2201

Norman,

Though we may never know exactly what was used on Steinway parts it was likely some sort of natural oil which is made of fatty acids.

Over time these oils can break down creating a fatty group, basically a chain of carbons and hydrogens like in our hydrocarbon fuels and an acetate group, which is acetic acid (as in vinegar).  The acetic acid reacts with the copper in our brass flange pins creating copper acetate, also known as verdigris.

A strong base like ammonia can neutralize the acetic acid and even reverse the verdigris (try it).  Fantastic contains either ammonia or a similar base as well as detergents that can remove some of the oils and might provide some temporary relief and water that might shrink the flanges and felt.  Because the wood is well saturated with oil only a long soak in ammonia would remove enough of the acidic oil and the bushing felts might be degraded to uselessness.

Replacing the affected parts is still the only real solution.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 390-0512
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-15-2025 11:00
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Steinway O from 1917 - removing damper levers

Loren, as David points out, the underlever flanges are glued in place. The stuff that nightmares are made from.

I have never used Fantastik, but judging from the multiple comments in this venue on its use (including in the recent "Piano Life Saver" thread and in the April 2022 Journal article on its use) I would think that its use would be high up on the list of options for you. Use a small artist's paint brush if you can't use an oiler.

However, I also passed the use of Fantastik through ChatGPT and I agree with its reasoning (see below). The key appears to be time – how long does one figure on the "solution" lasting. You can use Fantastik now and "kick the can down the road". Regards, Norman.

- - - -

Q to ChatGPT: "piano center pins suffer from a corrosion of the bronze pins called "verdigris" that causes a tightness of their motion. Does it make sense that application of a product called Fantastik can give permanent relief?"

A from ChatGPT: The idea that Fantastik, a household cleaner, could provide permanent relief from verdigris (the green corrosion that forms on copper or bronze alloys like those in piano center pins) is not scientifically sound for the following reasons:

1. Fantastik is not designed for metal corrosion

Fantastik is a general-purpose household cleaner, mostly intended for removing grease and grime from surfaces like countertops and appliances. It typically contains surfactants, solvents, and sometimes mild disinfectants-not corrosion inhibitors or materials formulated to deal with metal oxidation.

2. Verdigris is a chemical corrosion process

Verdigris is caused by copper reacting with moisture, oxygen, and other environmental contaminants (e.g., acetic acid from wood glues or humidity). Cleaning the pins with Fantastik might temporarily remove surface grime or lubricate the joint, making the pin seem freer, but it does not stop the corrosion process or reverse any mechanical damage caused by swelling or pitting.

3. Piano technicians don't recommend it

In the piano industry, dealing with tight or verdigris-affected center pins typically involves:

• Replacing the bushings or pins

• Cleaning the pin and flange bore with specialized solvents (e.g., naphtha or denatured alcohol)

• Using materials like PTFE powders, appropriate oils, or Teflon-based products, all applied cautiously

4. "Permanent relief" is misleading

Even professional-grade corrosion inhibitors don't offer permanent relief without addressing the root cause (e.g., high humidity, chemical reactions with wood, etc.). If verdigris has formed once, the environment is likely conducive to it forming again unless corrected.

Conclusion:

Using Fantastik might superficially improve motion by cleaning surface contaminants or temporarily reducing friction, but it does not treat the root cause and won't offer permanent relief from verdigris. For long-term repair, the correct procedure involves professional cleaning, pin replacement, or proper humidity control.

If you're experiencing verdigris issues with your piano's action, it's best to consult a professional piano technician.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321


Original Message:
Sent: 05-15-2025 08:06
From: David Hughes
Subject: Steinway O from 1917 - removing damper levers

Loren Kelley,

There are no screws holding the damper underlevers to the damper tray in Steinways of that vintage. The underlevers are glued to the back rail of the tray. You will need to remove the 67 dampers, remove the tray from the action cavity, pop off the offending underlevers, correct the pinning, reglue the underlevers to the tray, reinstall the tray, then reinstall the dampers.While you're there, douse all the action centers with Protek. And if you really wish to get excited, drill and install 67 #4 wood screws for each underlever backflange to reinforce the 110-year old glue joints.

Great factory design, eh?

David G. Hughes, RPT

P.S. You mentioned "remove the sostenuto rod". Is this a Hamburg Steinway?

------------------------------
David Hughes RPT
Vintage Case Parts
Glyndon MD
(443) 522-2201

Norman,

Though we may never know exactly what was used on Steinway parts it was likely some sort of natural oil which is made of fatty acids.

Over time these oils can break down creating a fatty group, basically a chain of carbons and hydrogens like in our hydrocarbon fuels and an acetate group, which is acetic acid (as in vinegar).  The acetic acid reacts with the copper in our brass flange pins creating copper acetate, also known as verdigris.

A strong base like ammonia can neutralize the acetic acid and even reverse the verdigris (try it).  Fantastic contains either ammonia or a similar base as well as detergents that can remove some of the oils and might provide some temporary relief and water that might shrink the flanges and felt.  Because the wood is well saturated with oil only a long soak in ammonia would remove enough of the acidic oil and the bushing felts might be degraded to uselessness.

Replacing the affected parts is still the only real solution.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 390-0512
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-15-2025 11:00
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Steinway O from 1917 - removing damper levers

Loren, as David points out, the underlever flanges are glued in place. The stuff that nightmares are made from.

I have never used Fantastik, but judging from the multiple comments in this venue on its use (including in the recent "Piano Life Saver" thread and in the April 2022 Journal article on its use) I would think that its use would be high up on the list of options for you. Use a small artist's paint brush if you can't use an oiler.

However, I also passed the use of Fantastik through ChatGPT and I agree with its reasoning (see below). The key appears to be time – how long does one figure on the "solution" lasting. You can use Fantastik now and "kick the can down the road". Regards, Norman.

- - - -

Q to ChatGPT: "piano center pins suffer from a corrosion of the bronze pins called "verdigris" that causes a tightness of their motion. Does it make sense that application of a product called Fantastik can give permanent relief?"

A from ChatGPT: The idea that Fantastik, a household cleaner, could provide permanent relief from verdigris (the green corrosion that forms on copper or bronze alloys like those in piano center pins) is not scientifically sound for the following reasons:

1. Fantastik is not designed for metal corrosion

Fantastik is a general-purpose household cleaner, mostly intended for removing grease and grime from surfaces like countertops and appliances. It typically contains surfactants, solvents, and sometimes mild disinfectants-not corrosion inhibitors or materials formulated to deal with metal oxidation.

2. Verdigris is a chemical corrosion process

Verdigris is caused by copper reacting with moisture, oxygen, and other environmental contaminants (e.g., acetic acid from wood glues or humidity). Cleaning the pins with Fantastik might temporarily remove surface grime or lubricate the joint, making the pin seem freer, but it does not stop the corrosion process or reverse any mechanical damage caused by swelling or pitting.

3. Piano technicians don't recommend it

In the piano industry, dealing with tight or verdigris-affected center pins typically involves:

• Replacing the bushings or pins

• Cleaning the pin and flange bore with specialized solvents (e.g., naphtha or denatured alcohol)

• Using materials like PTFE powders, appropriate oils, or Teflon-based products, all applied cautiously

4. "Permanent relief" is misleading

Even professional-grade corrosion inhibitors don't offer permanent relief without addressing the root cause (e.g., high humidity, chemical reactions with wood, etc.). If verdigris has formed once, the environment is likely conducive to it forming again unless corrected.

Conclusion:

Using Fantastik might superficially improve motion by cleaning surface contaminants or temporarily reducing friction, but it does not treat the root cause and won't offer permanent relief from verdigris. For long-term repair, the correct procedure involves professional cleaning, pin replacement, or proper humidity control.

If you're experiencing verdigris issues with your piano's action, it's best to consult a professional piano technician.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321


Original Message:
Sent: 05-15-2025 08:06
From: David Hughes
Subject: Steinway O from 1917 - removing damper levers

Loren Kelley,

There are no screws holding the damper underlevers to the damper tray in Steinways of that vintage. The underlevers are glued to the back rail of the tray. You will need to remove the 67 dampers, remove the tray from the action cavity, pop off the offending underlevers, correct the pinning, reglue the underlevers to the tray, reinstall the tray, then reinstall the dampers.While you're there, douse all the action centers with Protek. And if you really wish to get excited, drill and install 67 #4 wood screws for each underlever backflange to reinforce the 110-year old glue joints.

Great factory design, eh?

David G. Hughes, RPT

P.S. You mentioned "remove the sostenuto rod". Is this a Hamburg Steinway?

------------------------------
David Hughes RPT
Vintage Case Parts
Glyndon MD
(443) 522-2201

Loren, as David points out, the underlever flanges are glued in place. The stuff that nightmares are made from.

I have never used Fantastik, but judging from the multiple comments in this venue on its use (including in the recent "Piano Life Saver" thread and in the April 2022 Journal article on its use) I would think that its use would be high up on the list of options for you. Use a small artist's paint brush if you can't use an oiler.

However, I also passed the use of Fantastik through ChatGPT and I agree with its reasoning (see below). The key appears to be time – how long does one figure on the "solution" lasting. You can use Fantastik now and "kick the can down the road". Regards, Norman.

- - - -

Q to ChatGPT: "piano center pins suffer from a corrosion of the bronze pins called "verdigris" that causes a tightness of their motion. Does it make sense that application of a product called Fantastik can give permanent relief?"

A from ChatGPT: The idea that Fantastik, a household cleaner, could provide permanent relief from verdigris (the green corrosion that forms on copper or bronze alloys like those in piano center pins) is not scientifically sound for the following reasons:

1. Fantastik is not designed for metal corrosion

Fantastik is a general-purpose household cleaner, mostly intended for removing grease and grime from surfaces like countertops and appliances. It typically contains surfactants, solvents, and sometimes mild disinfectants-not corrosion inhibitors or materials formulated to deal with metal oxidation.

2. Verdigris is a chemical corrosion process

Verdigris is caused by copper reacting with moisture, oxygen, and other environmental contaminants (e.g., acetic acid from wood glues or humidity). Cleaning the pins with Fantastik might temporarily remove surface grime or lubricate the joint, making the pin seem freer, but it does not stop the corrosion process or reverse any mechanical damage caused by swelling or pitting.

3. Piano technicians don't recommend it

In the piano industry, dealing with tight or verdigris-affected center pins typically involves:

• Replacing the bushings or pins

• Cleaning the pin and flange bore with specialized solvents (e.g., naphtha or denatured alcohol)

• Using materials like PTFE powders, appropriate oils, or Teflon-based products, all applied cautiously

4. "Permanent relief" is misleading

Even professional-grade corrosion inhibitors don't offer permanent relief without addressing the root cause (e.g., high humidity, chemical reactions with wood, etc.). If verdigris has formed once, the environment is likely conducive to it forming again unless corrected.

Conclusion:

Using Fantastik might superficially improve motion by cleaning surface contaminants or temporarily reducing friction, but it does not treat the root cause and won't offer permanent relief from verdigris. For long-term repair, the correct procedure involves professional cleaning, pin replacement, or proper humidity control.

If you're experiencing verdigris issues with your piano's action, it's best to consult a professional piano technician.

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-15-2025 08:06
From: David Hughes
Subject: Steinway O from 1917 - removing damper levers

Loren Kelley,

There are no screws holding the damper underlevers to the damper tray in Steinways of that vintage. The underlevers are glued to the back rail of the tray. You will need to remove the 67 dampers, remove the tray from the action cavity, pop off the offending underlevers, correct the pinning, reglue the underlevers to the tray, reinstall the tray, then reinstall the dampers.While you're there, douse all the action centers with Protek. And if you really wish to get excited, drill and install 67 #4 wood screws for each underlever backflange to reinforce the 110-year old glue joints.

Great factory design, eh?

David G. Hughes, RPT

P.S. You mentioned "remove the sostenuto rod". Is this a Hamburg Steinway?

------------------------------
David Hughes RPT
Vintage Case Parts
Glyndon MD
(443) 522-2201

Loren,

I have had a lot of success accessing tightly spaced parts by using a longer hypodermic and syringe. 

The higher the number, the smaller the diameter. I use size 18gauge if I want a lot of liquid to flow, and a 22gauge for finer drops. 

You can get them at the farm supply stores, like Tractor Supply or veterinary supplies. The hypo bottles also have an option for

longer metal nozzles. Pianotek used to have a long hypo. This might save you from having to remove the parts. 

Best of luck,

Dave

I feel it's important to "burst their bubble" as to their expectations for a 100 plus year old piano. The design of components at any time period reflects an absolute maximum useful anticipated lifespan of about 50 years. There was no intention of it lasting a century. Present owners must be informed of the fact that their precious commodity contains largely 18th century thinking and technology. If they want the thing to perform they need to deal with that and pay to have it repaired properly rather than band-aided and pass it off to the next unsuspecting person to deal with. They must realize that their perception of a multi-generational appreciating asset is a dream concocted by clever sales people. It is not reality.  Fix it properly or discard it.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Loren,

I have had a lot of success accessing tightly spaced parts by using a longer hypodermic and syringe. 

The higher the number, the smaller the diameter. I use size 18gauge if I want a lot of liquid to flow, and a 22gauge for finer drops. 

You can get them at the farm supply stores, like Tractor Supply or veterinary supplies. The hypo bottles also have an option for

longer metal nozzles. Pianotek used to have a long hypo. This might save you from having to remove the parts. 

Best of luck,

Dave

I feel it's important to "burst their bubble" as to their expectations for a 100 plus year old piano. The design of components at any time period reflects an absolute maximum useful anticipated lifespan of about 50 years. There was no intention of it lasting a century. Present owners must be informed of the fact that their precious commodity contains largely 18th century thinking and technology. If they want the thing to perform they need to deal with that and pay to have it repaired properly rather than band-aided and pass it off to the next unsuspecting person to deal with. They must realize that their perception of a multi-generational appreciating asset is a dream concocted by clever sales people. It is not reality.  Fix it properly or discard it.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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Original Message:
Sent: 05-16-2025 13:02
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Steinway O from 1917 - removing damper levers

Loren,

I have had a lot of success accessing tightly spaced parts by using a longer hypodermic and syringe. 

The higher the number, the smaller the diameter. I use size 18gauge if I want a lot of liquid to flow, and a 22gauge for finer drops. 

You can get them at the farm supply stores, like Tractor Supply or veterinary supplies. The hypo bottles also have an option for

longer metal nozzles. Pianotek used to have a long hypo. This might save you from having to remove the parts. 

Best of luck,

Dave

------------------------------
Dave Conte, RPT

Piano Technician in Residence
The University of Tennessee
College of Music
Knoxville TN
(817) 307-5656
Owner: Rocky Top Piano