Original Message:
Sent: 05-16-2025 01:07
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: Steinway O from 1917 - removing damper levers
Norman,
Though we may never know exactly what was used on Steinway parts it was likely some sort of natural oil which is made of fatty acids.
Over time these oils can break down creating a fatty group, basically a chain of carbons and hydrogens like in our hydrocarbon fuels and an acetate group, which is acetic acid (as in vinegar). The acetic acid reacts with the copper in our brass flange pins creating copper acetate, also known as verdigris.
A strong base like ammonia can neutralize the acetic acid and even reverse the verdigris (try it). Fantastic contains either ammonia or a similar base as well as detergents that can remove some of the oils and might provide some temporary relief and water that might shrink the flanges and felt. Because the wood is well saturated with oil only a long soak in ammonia would remove enough of the acidic oil and the bushing felts might be degraded to uselessness.
Replacing the affected parts is still the only real solution.
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Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 390-0512
Original Message:
Sent: 05-15-2025 11:00
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Steinway O from 1917 - removing damper levers
Loren, as David points out, the underlever flanges are glued in place. The stuff that nightmares are made from.
I have never used Fantastik, but judging from the multiple comments in this venue on its use (including in the recent "Piano Life Saver" thread and in the April 2022 Journal article on its use) I would think that its use would be high up on the list of options for you. Use a small artist's paint brush if you can't use an oiler.
However, I also passed the use of Fantastik through ChatGPT and I agree with its reasoning (see below). The key appears to be time – how long does one figure on the "solution" lasting. You can use Fantastik now and "kick the can down the road". Regards, Norman.
- - - -
Q to ChatGPT: "piano center pins suffer from a corrosion of the bronze pins called "verdigris" that causes a tightness of their motion. Does it make sense that application of a product called Fantastik can give permanent relief?"
A from ChatGPT: The idea that Fantastik, a household cleaner, could provide permanent relief from verdigris (the green corrosion that forms on copper or bronze alloys like those in piano center pins) is not scientifically sound for the following reasons:
1. Fantastik is not designed for metal corrosion
Fantastik is a general-purpose household cleaner, mostly intended for removing grease and grime from surfaces like countertops and appliances. It typically contains surfactants, solvents, and sometimes mild disinfectants-not corrosion inhibitors or materials formulated to deal with metal oxidation.
2. Verdigris is a chemical corrosion process
Verdigris is caused by copper reacting with moisture, oxygen, and other environmental contaminants (e.g., acetic acid from wood glues or humidity). Cleaning the pins with Fantastik might temporarily remove surface grime or lubricate the joint, making the pin seem freer, but it does not stop the corrosion process or reverse any mechanical damage caused by swelling or pitting.
3. Piano technicians don't recommend it
In the piano industry, dealing with tight or verdigris-affected center pins typically involves:
Replacing the bushings or pins
Cleaning the pin and flange bore with specialized solvents (e.g., naphtha or denatured alcohol)
Using materials like PTFE powders, appropriate oils, or Teflon-based products, all applied cautiously
4. "Permanent relief" is misleading
Even professional-grade corrosion inhibitors don't offer permanent relief without addressing the root cause (e.g., high humidity, chemical reactions with wood, etc.). If verdigris has formed once, the environment is likely conducive to it forming again unless corrected.
Conclusion:
Using Fantastik might superficially improve motion by cleaning surface contaminants or temporarily reducing friction, but it does not treat the root cause and won't offer permanent relief from verdigris. For long-term repair, the correct procedure involves professional cleaning, pin replacement, or proper humidity control.
If you're experiencing verdigris issues with your piano's action, it's best to consult a professional piano technician.
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Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
Original Message:
Sent: 05-15-2025 08:06
From: David Hughes
Subject: Steinway O from 1917 - removing damper levers
Loren Kelley,
There are no screws holding the damper underlevers to the damper tray in Steinways of that vintage. The underlevers are glued to the back rail of the tray. You will need to remove the 67 dampers, remove the tray from the action cavity, pop off the offending underlevers, correct the pinning, reglue the underlevers to the tray, reinstall the tray, then reinstall the dampers.While you're there, douse all the action centers with Protek. And if you really wish to get excited, drill and install 67 #4 wood screws for each underlever backflange to reinforce the 110-year old glue joints.
Great factory design, eh?
David G. Hughes, RPT
P.S. You mentioned "remove the sostenuto rod". Is this a Hamburg Steinway?
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David Hughes RPT
Vintage Case Parts
Glyndon MD
(443) 522-2201
Original Message:
Sent: 05-14-2025 11:37
From: Loren Kelley
Subject: Steinway O from 1917 - removing damper levers
Greetings
I have a customer with a 1917 Steinway O that was restrung 10-20 years ago, and it got new hammers, shanks, and whippens. The damper levers are original, and now some of the highest ones are sluggish. It's clear that the dampers are not sluggish from friction in the wire bushing, but in the lever centers. I went to remove one to repin it, but found that the screw heads face upwards. In other words, it looks like I would have to remove all the dampers and the sostenuto rod, and then remove the rail that the damper levers are screwed onto, just to access these few levers. I tried lubing the rear center, but found it almost impossible to get the long tip of my bottle onto the center and to see that it had actually delivered the fluid.
Does anyone have advice for dealing with this? How long it takes to do this whole operation? The customer actually wants to sell the piano. He was thinking of doing a full regulation on it to encourage the sale. Of course, that would include dealing with this damper issue. Any comments would be much appreciated.