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Strings breaking at capo bar

  • 1.  Strings breaking at capo bar

    Posted 10-20-2022 11:54
    Hello all.  I service a Petrof grand in a home that continually breaks strings in the treble.  I'm beginning to think the cause of this is the capo bar, since all the broken strings have have failed in the same spot, right where they pass under the capo bar.  I've included some rough photos where you can see a line.  I'm thinking the termination point is too sharp, or possibly the bearing point is too rough.  My inclination is to loosen the strings and buff the bottom of the capo with emery cloth, shoeshine style.  But even if this is the right thing to do, I don't know what grade of emery cloth grit to use.  One fine grit only or a coarser one then fine?

    The photos try to show the bottom of the capo bar, and the spot where all the broken strings broke.

    Thanks for your consideration.
    Robert

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    Robert Callaghan
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  • 2.  RE: Strings breaking at capo bar

    Member
    Posted 10-20-2022 12:04
    There are many articles on this subject and how to approach dressing the capo bar . If you are a PTG member log in and do a search of the PTG Journals. What year and model of Petrof is this ? I worked for a Petrof dealer and we never had this issue however I also ran into some Petrofs that had not been well cared for or made . These where being pawned off by a questionable operation running a piano warehouse operation. Also what shape are the hammers in and how hard is the piano played ?

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    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
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  • 3.  RE: Strings breaking at capo bar

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-20-2022 13:47

    Hi,

    I had a customer in Seattle when I lived there with a Bozey with the same problem. Yes, the capo bar is the issue.  Fortunately, the capo bars on Boseys are removable.  I, with  a new lesson from my mentor, Steve Brady, found the termination points on the capo were too wide causing all the string breakage.  Re shaping the bar is the best way to go.  It's tough to do unless you're restringing the piano and can take the plate out, flip in on its' back and get the proper termination points. About 1.5 mm crest or less.  Too sharp, they'll break again; too wide like 2-3m and they'll continue to break.

     

    Steve and I reshaped the bar and I restrung the section. Never in 10 more years did a string break! Then I moved, so don't know any more history.

     

    I've heard of a diamond  abrasive capo bar grinder is available somewhere, but don't know where to get it.  A tech at Oberlin had one and I asked where to get it but never heard back, so I know it's there somewhere.

     

    I want one too. We have lot of practice grands where the broken strings are almost always in the capo section.

     

    Yes, some fairly fine grit emery cloth can help, but it may only be temporary until you can get a real correct termination point.

     

    Best of luck.

    Paul

     






  • 4.  RE: Strings breaking at capo bar

    Posted 10-20-2022 13:56
    The V'bar looks rough and needs tp be polished.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
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  • 5.  RE: Strings breaking at capo bar

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-20-2022 14:25
    I come back the  following posting again and again.  Very helpful advice, as far as I am concerned:

    https://my.ptg.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?GroupId=43&MID=639373&CommunityKey=6265a40b-9fd2-4152-a628-bd7c7d770cbf&tab=digestviewer

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    Floyd Gadd RPT
    Regina SK
    (306) 502-9103
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  • 6.  RE: Strings breaking at capo bar

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-20-2022 16:56

    Robert,

     

    Before looking at the capo bar, look at the hammer condition.

     

    Treble strings breaking is almost always caused by a serious pianist practicing difficult music combined with the string grooves getting long on the hammers.  The long string marks effectively turn the hammer into a flat surface that is trying to drive the string into a sort of square wave shape.  Plus the longer the string marks become, the closer to the capo bar the impact becomes.  This causes metal fatigue and starts the strings breaking.

     

    If the customer will have you reshape the hammers, touch up the regulation, and replace all of the weakened wire (it's usually just one or 2 sizes, like 14 ½ and 15) in the area, then they will stop breaking strings.  At least, until the hammers begin to get worn again!

     

    The iron is much softer than the steel of the wire on most pianos (very few exceptions) so a rough surface has no impact on the wire's strength – the wire just creates a groove.

     

    From your picture, it actually looks like the radius of the capo is too broad also.  This cause a long contact area, which inhibits the string from "rocking" at the capo.  So honestly, with softer iron plates it's better to have a more pointed V under there, and let the string settle into a short saddle area so that it can move better into the duplex scale area.

     

    Don Mannino






  • 7.  RE: Strings breaking at capo bar

    Posted 10-21-2022 09:53
    You can try resurfacing the capo bar and it might help. But there are certain players out there capable of breaking strings no matter what you do to the piano. Possible remedies might be softening the hammers and/or increasing let off distance in that section of the action a bit to reduce power. 

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    Randy Prentice RPT
    Tucson AZ
    (520) 749-3788
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  • 8.  RE: Strings breaking at capo bar

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-21-2022 18:15
    That "V-bar" looks PRETTY BAD to me. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 9.  RE: Strings breaking at capo bar

    Posted 10-21-2022 19:05
    I agree, Peter. The V-Bar does look pretty funky.

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    Randy Prentice RPT
    Tucson AZ
    (520) 749-3788
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  • 10.  RE: Strings breaking at capo bar

    Posted 10-21-2022 19:27
    Thanks everyone.  What a wealth of experience.  Everything is true, especially the player, a teenage boy practicing for a competition.

    If I were to do the buffing with emery cloth, which grit should I use?

    Robert





  • 11.  RE: Strings breaking at capo bar

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-21-2022 20:13
    Sorry to say but I think that thing is beyond buffing. Reshape entirely.  Got to get paid too.

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 12.  RE: Strings breaking at capo bar

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-22-2022 13:07
    I wonder about setting let off lower to reduce string breakage. It seems to me that when certain pianists always want to play with as much force as they can muster, they may use even more force when having to “throw”
    the hammer to the string when let off is set far. The definite downside of setting let off low is that you lose potential for pp playing. I also believe tuning stability is trickier when the regulation is not efficient.

    Joe Wiencek
    NYC