Pianotech

Hi!

Happy Easter!

I'm preparing a seminar for the UK PTA and was fiddling around with online frequency generators. For fun 

I always found that in the highest octave I could tune three different ways, each of which sounded OK under the correct circumstances:

Tuning with octaves with both notes played simultaneously.

Tuning with octaves with both notes played in sequence.

Tuning with arpeggios.

Each of these produced a different tuning which may or may not sound appropriate depending on the music or performer.

Now I tune with perfect 12ths and let the notes fall where they may.  No one is complaining.

Hi!

Happy Easter!

I'm preparing a seminar for the UK PTA and was fiddling around with online frequency generators. For fun 

Hi Blaine

What arpeggios did you use for tuning the treble and was it done with one hand?  I take it that the stretch is greater/wider when tuning with arpeggios than when tuning an octave with both notes being played in sequence?

Are you using P12s so that the M6 is slightly faster than the M17 or where the M6=M17?

I always found that in the highest octave I could tune three different ways, each of which sounded OK under the correct circumstances:

Tuning with octaves with both notes played simultaneously.

Tuning with octaves with both notes played in sequence.

Tuning with arpeggios.

Each of these produced a different tuning which may or may not sound appropriate depending on the music or performer.

Now I tune with perfect 12ths and let the notes fall where they may.  No one is complaining.

Hi!

Happy Easter!

I'm preparing a seminar for the UK PTA and was fiddling around with online frequency generators. For fun 

I use a lot of M6s in the low tenor and bass, but M6 gets too fast in the treble for me.  I like to match my 5ths and octaves up into the treble and check with 12ths, though I wouldn't always call them perfect.  Some pianos give me perfect double octaves, some give me perfect triple octaves.  In the high treble we fight false beats, so I do my best with 5ths, 12ths, single, double and triple octaves.

Whatever works.  Whatever satisfies the customer.

Hi Blaine

What arpeggios did you use for tuning the treble and was it done with one hand?  I take it that the stretch is greater/wider when tuning with arpeggios than when tuning an octave with both notes being played in sequence?

Are you using P12s so that the M6 is slightly faster than the M17 or where the M6=M17?

I always found that in the highest octave I could tune three different ways, each of which sounded OK under the correct circumstances:

Tuning with octaves with both notes played simultaneously.

Tuning with octaves with both notes played in sequence.

Tuning with arpeggios.

Each of these produced a different tuning which may or may not sound appropriate depending on the music or performer.

Now I tune with perfect 12ths and let the notes fall where they may.  No one is complaining.

Hi!

Happy Easter!

I'm preparing a seminar for the UK PTA and was fiddling around with online frequency generators. For fun 

Hi!

Happy Easter!

I'm preparing a seminar for the UK PTA and was fiddling around with online frequency generators. For fun 

"So is top treble tuning really about inharmonicity? Is it more about our own ears and perception of pitch, nothing to do with the piano?"  Many years ago, we had a large gathering at a chapter meeting.  The question was posed by the lecturer as he played an A chord in the treble section around A4, and then stopped.  "Is this note sharp or flat?" as he played A6.  He tuned the A6 up or down until everyone was more or less satisfied with it.  When he played the chord and A6 simultaneously, it was obvious that A6 was way too sharp.  There is a psycho-acoustic effect in our hearing that we like to hear a single note played by itself at a pitch that is much higher than what we like to hear when all the notes of a chord are played.  Thus, we have found that more stretch in the treble seems to be a little more pleasing.  If you sharpen everything too much, you can't play the chords up there.  They beat profusely.  But if you hit those high notes only occasionally, it sounds good.  Does it have to do with inharmonicity?  I'm sure it has something to do with it, but I'm not exactly sure why.  We hear things musically in different contexts.  Maybe some of you who are musicians, composers and arrangers could shed some more light on this.

Hi!

Happy Easter!

I'm preparing a seminar for the UK PTA and was fiddling around with online frequency generators. For fun 

"So is top treble tuning really about inharmonicity? Is it more about our own ears and perception of pitch, nothing to do with the piano?"  Many years ago, we had a large gathering at a chapter meeting.  The question was posed by the lecturer as he played an A chord in the treble section around A4, and then stopped.  "Is this note sharp or flat?" as he played A6.  He tuned the A6 up or down until everyone was more or less satisfied with it.  When he played the chord and A6 simultaneously, it was obvious that A6 was way too sharp.  There is a psycho-acoustic effect in our hearing that we like to hear a single note played by itself at a pitch that is much higher than what we like to hear when all the notes of a chord are played.  Thus, we have found that more stretch in the treble seems to be a little more pleasing.  If you sharpen everything too much, you can't play the chords up there.  They beat profusely.  But if you hit those high notes only occasionally, it sounds good.  Does it have to do with inharmonicity?  I'm sure it has something to do with it, but I'm not exactly sure why.  We hear things musically in different contexts.  Maybe some of you who are musicians, composers and arrangers could shed some more light on this.

Hi!

Happy Easter!

I'm preparing a seminar for the UK PTA and was fiddling around with online frequency generators. For fun 

"So is top treble tuning really about inharmonicity? Is it more about our own ears and perception of pitch, nothing to do with the piano?"  Many years ago, we had a large gathering at a chapter meeting.  The question was posed by the lecturer as he played an A chord in the treble section around A4, and then stopped.  "Is this note sharp or flat?" as he played A6.  He tuned the A6 up or down until everyone was more or less satisfied with it.  When he played the chord and A6 simultaneously, it was obvious that A6 was way too sharp.  There is a psycho-acoustic effect in our hearing that we like to hear a single note played by itself at a pitch that is much higher than what we like to hear when all the notes of a chord are played.  Thus, we have found that more stretch in the treble seems to be a little more pleasing.  If you sharpen everything too much, you can't play the chords up there.  They beat profusely.  But if you hit those high notes only occasionally, it sounds good.  Does it have to do with inharmonicity?  I'm sure it has something to do with it, but I'm not exactly sure why.  We hear things musically in different contexts.  Maybe some of you who are musicians, composers and arrangers could shed some more light on this.

Hi!

Happy Easter!

I'm preparing a seminar for the UK PTA and was fiddling around with online frequency generators. For fun 

"So is top treble tuning really about inharmonicity? Is it more about our own ears and perception of pitch, nothing to do with the piano?"  Many years ago, we had a large gathering at a chapter meeting.  The question was posed by the lecturer as he played an A chord in the treble section around A4, and then stopped.  "Is this note sharp or flat?" as he played A6.  He tuned the A6 up or down until everyone was more or less satisfied with it.  When he played the chord and A6 simultaneously, it was obvious that A6 was way too sharp.  There is a psycho-acoustic effect in our hearing that we like to hear a single note played by itself at a pitch that is much higher than what we like to hear when all the notes of a chord are played.  Thus, we have found that more stretch in the treble seems to be a little more pleasing.  If you sharpen everything too much, you can't play the chords up there.  They beat profusely.  But if you hit those high notes only occasionally, it sounds good.  Does it have to do with inharmonicity?  I'm sure it has something to do with it, but I'm not exactly sure why.  We hear things musically in different contexts.  Maybe some of you who are musicians, composers and arrangers could shed some more light on this.

Hi!

Happy Easter!

I'm preparing a seminar for the UK PTA and was fiddling around with online frequency generators. For fun 

David --

The tone generator link is using simple x2 math for octaves. Mathematically the tone it is generating at A7, at 3520Hz, is exactly three x2 octaves above A4, at 440Hz. Therefore, using this tone generator, there are no beats when playing A4 and A7 together at the same time. If, however, you are comparing the A7 of the tone generator to the A7 on your piano, of course the tone generator is going to sound flat, and there are going to be beats. The A7 on your piano is at a higher frequency due to temperament, stretch, and inharmonicity. 

"So is top treble tuning really about inharmonicity? Is it more about our own ears and perception of pitch, nothing to do with the piano?"  Many years ago, we had a large gathering at a chapter meeting.  The question was posed by the lecturer as he played an A chord in the treble section around A4, and then stopped.  "Is this note sharp or flat?" as he played A6.  He tuned the A6 up or down until everyone was more or less satisfied with it.  When he played the chord and A6 simultaneously, it was obvious that A6 was way too sharp.  There is a psycho-acoustic effect in our hearing that we like to hear a single note played by itself at a pitch that is much higher than what we like to hear when all the notes of a chord are played.  Thus, we have found that more stretch in the treble seems to be a little more pleasing.  If you sharpen everything too much, you can't play the chords up there.  They beat profusely.  But if you hit those high notes only occasionally, it sounds good.  Does it have to do with inharmonicity?  I'm sure it has something to do with it, but I'm not exactly sure why.  We hear things musically in different contexts.  Maybe some of you who are musicians, composers and arrangers could shed some more light on this.

Hi!

Happy Easter!

I'm preparing a seminar for the UK PTA and was fiddling around with online frequency generators. For fun 

David --

The tone generator link is using simple x2 math for octaves. Mathematically the tone it is generating at A7, at 3520Hz, is exactly three x2 octaves above A4, at 440Hz. Therefore, using this tone generator, there are no beats when playing A4 and A7 together at the same time. If, however, you are comparing the A7 of the tone generator to the A7 on your piano, of course the tone generator is going to sound flat, and there are going to be beats. The A7 on your piano is at a higher frequency due to temperament, stretch, and inharmonicity. 

"So is top treble tuning really about inharmonicity? Is it more about our own ears and perception of pitch, nothing to do with the piano?"  Many years ago, we had a large gathering at a chapter meeting.  The question was posed by the lecturer as he played an A chord in the treble section around A4, and then stopped.  "Is this note sharp or flat?" as he played A6.  He tuned the A6 up or down until everyone was more or less satisfied with it.  When he played the chord and A6 simultaneously, it was obvious that A6 was way too sharp.  There is a psycho-acoustic effect in our hearing that we like to hear a single note played by itself at a pitch that is much higher than what we like to hear when all the notes of a chord are played.  Thus, we have found that more stretch in the treble seems to be a little more pleasing.  If you sharpen everything too much, you can't play the chords up there.  They beat profusely.  But if you hit those high notes only occasionally, it sounds good.  Does it have to do with inharmonicity?  I'm sure it has something to do with it, but I'm not exactly sure why.  We hear things musically in different contexts.  Maybe some of you who are musicians, composers and arrangers could shed some more light on this.

Hi!

Happy Easter!

I'm preparing a seminar for the UK PTA and was fiddling around with online frequency generators. For fun 

David --

In no way did I want to imply you are stupid. Fortunately your winking emojis tell me that you already understand that. Thanks. 😉

As we age everyone, especially men, suffers from hearing loss due to presbycusis. The loss of the tiny hairs in our ears that detect sounds. High frequency sounds are the first to go because the hair cells that detect them are nearest the opening of the ears and subsequently get damaged first. They are near the opening of the ears because high frequencies have much less power than lower frequencies and would diminish in power quite quickly as the sound wave travels in our ears. 

Many years ago the Los Angeles PTG chapters held a meeting at the House Institute of Hearing. One of the things we learned was that hearing is so important to our survival that the brain really wants to hear everything it can. However, it doesn't really care what the frequency it's interpreting is. It just wants to hear the sound, any sound, as a warning. As a result, when hair cells die off, the brain starts using the hair cells closest to them as a backup. That means that if the hair cells for, say, A7, (3520Hz), die off the brain may start using the hair cells for 3521 or 3519 just so it can hear something. Anything. It doesn't care if it may sound flat or sharp. It just desperately wants to hear something in that area. 

Not that many years ago, I attended a presentation on hearing perception at a PTG convention. I apologize for not remembering the name of the person who did the presentation. One of the things he demonstrated to us is that each of our ears hears things differently, even though the brain processes them as being the same. As an example he had a collection of tuning forks set out for us. All of them tested to be accurate at C4. When we held two of them up to our ears at the same time, one on each side, they both sounded the same and there were no beats. However, if we just took one of them and listened to it with one ear and then the other, there was a definite difference in tone. Everyone there experienced one ear as sharp and the other flat by comparison. But heard together, one on each ear, our brains interpreted them as the same. 

Fletcher Munson demonstrates that high and low frequencies sound different at different loudness levels. At lower levels, bass sounds may be sharp while treble sounds may be flat. As you increase the loudness both of these extremes tend to flatten out. 

I get the occasional call from a customer whose previous piano tuner was no longer available. And when I show up I can usually guess that the reason the previous tuner was no longer available is because they retired because they could no longer hear the high treble notes. And I discern this by finding the top treble notes being pulled extraordinarily sharp. Sometimes to the point that I'm surprised they weren't breaking. 

All this to ask, when was the last time you had your hearing checked? 😉

David --

The tone generator link is using simple x2 math for octaves. Mathematically the tone it is generating at A7, at 3520Hz, is exactly three x2 octaves above A4, at 440Hz. Therefore, using this tone generator, there are no beats when playing A4 and A7 together at the same time. If, however, you are comparing the A7 of the tone generator to the A7 on your piano, of course the tone generator is going to sound flat, and there are going to be beats. The A7 on your piano is at a higher frequency due to temperament, stretch, and inharmonicity. 

"So is top treble tuning really about inharmonicity? Is it more about our own ears and perception of pitch, nothing to do with the piano?"  Many years ago, we had a large gathering at a chapter meeting.  The question was posed by the lecturer as he played an A chord in the treble section around A4, and then stopped.  "Is this note sharp or flat?" as he played A6.  He tuned the A6 up or down until everyone was more or less satisfied with it.  When he played the chord and A6 simultaneously, it was obvious that A6 was way too sharp.  There is a psycho-acoustic effect in our hearing that we like to hear a single note played by itself at a pitch that is much higher than what we like to hear when all the notes of a chord are played.  Thus, we have found that more stretch in the treble seems to be a little more pleasing.  If you sharpen everything too much, you can't play the chords up there.  They beat profusely.  But if you hit those high notes only occasionally, it sounds good.  Does it have to do with inharmonicity?  I'm sure it has something to do with it, but I'm not exactly sure why.  We hear things musically in different contexts.  Maybe some of you who are musicians, composers and arrangers could shed some more light on this.

Hi!

Happy Easter!

I'm preparing a seminar for the UK PTA and was fiddling around with online frequency generators. For fun