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transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner

  • 1.  transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12 days ago
    Greetings,

    A colleague has asked me to cover for him at a recording studio. He tunes the piano in question with Verituner (which I am unfamiliar with). I regularly use iRCT (aka Cybertuner) and am also conversant with Sanderson Accu-Tuner.

    The best way to maintain stability is to routinely tune the same piano to the same temperament, with the same stretch, and at the same pitch. In that interest, I want to replicate his Verituner tuning with Cybertuner. If I understand Verituner correctly, the stumbling block seems to be that it tunes while listening to multiple partials, apportioning different amounts of weight to different partials. iRCT and SAT, on the other hand, tune to a single partial.

    So, the question is: How best to transcribe a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner (or Accu-Tuner, for that matter)?

    Anyone out there done this, successfully? In the absence of actual experience, speculation is also of interest.

    Thanks,

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner

    Posted 12 days ago
    Perhaps tidying up the existing tuning by ear, putting unisons right, finding the accordance where two of three strings are find and one is off but checking the octaves to make sure that the one off is the one that needs to be corrected is the start.

    That might result in a good enough tuning for the moment or, having done that, analyse that tuning with the Cybertuning and see what settings result in the closest fit to the existing tuning.

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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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    +44 1342 850594





  • 3.  RE: transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12 days ago
    David,

    Thanks for your input.

    Cleaning up unisons and reading what's left of the previous tuning sounds like it would introduce a layer of possible measurement error into the data. That is why I am trying to transcribe the VT info into iRCT.

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner

    Member
    Posted 12 days ago
    I use a VT and have thought about this quandary. I suppose if you ask the VT tuner how many cents sharp his VT places C8, you can extrapolate your stretch to emulate his.  When tuning a rented grand, I've found many ETD users (SAT ?) placed C8 at +60c. Wicked Shahp (as they say in Boston).

    My custom VT stretch places C8 in the +30~40 cents range. It all depends on the upper harmonics of the lower notes. I've had pianos where the 8P on C5 was +62c.
    and 2P on C7 was +60c. So I balance the proportioning of partial sampling in the upper treble between a 4:1 and 3:1.

    Maybe he uses Kent Swafford's P12. The VT has 3 built-In adjustable stretches (Styles) with about 7 custom Styles developed by users.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12 days ago
    Jon,

    "Wicked shahp" indeed!

    My colleague tells me that he uses the Koval stretch on his Verituner. (Any idea which Octave Tuning Style on RCT that approximates most closesly?) The first question I asked was how many cents sharp C8 was in the tuning file he uses. He could not readily answer that a couple of days ago, but seems to have since figured it out.

    If all else fails, I have considered measuring the piano with Cybertuner and try rendering tunings in various Octave Tuning Styles until I find the one that most closely approximates what is there. (This piano gets tuned for every usage, usually a couple of time per week.) Still, I would prefer to exactly replicate the tuning he is using.

    Thanks,

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner

    Posted 12 days ago
    Isn't there a Swafford P12 option now?.. but it's been decades since I used RCT. Kent's, Jon Page's and my style all end up pretty close to each other, with variations imposed via the different apps and slightly different choices of intervals to weight.

    If the piano has a decent scale, taking just a few samples like RCT does should provide a representative inharmonicity progression. I would say try to match the A's across the scale and not worry too much about C8 where the curve is increasing rapidly.

    Ron Koval


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    Ron Koval
    Chicagoland
    rontuner@hotmail.com
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  • 7.  RE: transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12 days ago
    Good idea, Ron.

    Thanks,

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner

    Posted 12 days ago
    If the other tech is willing to take the extra step of measuring the tuning after finishing  - the Verituner is able to do that using the specific partials of the PTG tuning test. (measure mode) Then the numbers could be shared to you.
    The tuning targets displayed in fine mode showing multiple partials are that - targets, not specific values where the pitch will land once tuned. Multiple partials are listed for each note, except from C7-C8. In my experience, they should be close to the actual pitch if the measuring done for that piano was careful, but not as accurate as using measure mode.

    Either method would require the current tech to transcribe from each note to send to you.

    Ron Koval

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    Ron Koval
    Chicagoland
    rontuner@hotmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12 days ago
    Ron,

    Thanks for this insight. I will pass it on to him, and hope that the opportunity for him to do as you describe before handling this gig over to me in the next couple of days.

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12 days ago
    Would it be possible for you to borrow his VT, or both of you to switch devices for the day? It's kind of a worst case scenario, but if it's only a one time deal it could possibly work.

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
    Piano Technician / Artisan
    (256) 947-9999
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12 days ago
    Benjamin,

    I have never tuned with Verituner before, have limited time each day with the subject piano, and will be covering for my colleague for over a month. Within that time, someone else will be covering for me. They also use Cybertuner. So if I can translate the tuning to RCT, it won't just be for me or for a single tuning.

    Thanks,

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12 days ago
    Using 2 iPods, I did some P12 tunings with Veritune and iRCT side by side and the differences seemed pretty minimal. Perhaps you could sit in on a tuning with the other tuner and set up your machine accordingly. Not sure exactly how to do that with the iRCT, as Jon mentions, you can record a tuning with VT.

    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal RPT
    Honolulu HI
    (808) 521-7129
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  • 13.  RE: transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12 days ago
    Oops, thought you said he was using P12.

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    Steven Rosenthal RPT
    Honolulu HI
    (808) 521-7129
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  • 14.  RE: transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner

    Member
    Posted 12 days ago
    On the VT, in Fine Mode; you can select any note. and it will display the 1st partial placement. The other tuner could write down how many cents sharp the Style places the A's..

    You could always select an average stretch and sample across the keyboard and make corrections or select another stretch.  It's all pretty much irrelevant because they all sound good and you'll not be changing anything that drastically to require a pitch correction.

    The worse that can come of it is that the venue likes your stretch better. Or they can't wait to get the other guy back...:-)

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12 days ago
    Hi Alan,

    Best practice recommendation is to tune the piano with CyberTuner, then have your colleague copy the tuning with the other system. :P
    Otherwise, the very best way to do this is to get the piano freshly tuned with his system. Then record the piano using Chameleon in CyberTuner and calculate a new tuning. OTS and stretch is largely irrelevant. We're really just getting a baseline at this point. Make sure to save the tuning (Chameleon > Advanced > Name/Save on) into an appropriate file.

    Here's the magic. In CyberEar with your new tuning loaded, switch to Fine Tune Mode. Now from A0-C8, record each note onto the tuning file by pressing the left Ear button. Fill in the spinner, then press the Save¢ button.

    If you look at the tuning graph after making some progress, you'll see it's no longer a perfect curve series, but rather slightly crooked lines exactly representing the tuning.

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    http://www.facebook.com/ReyburnPianoTech
    http://www.reyburntools.com
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  • 16.  RE: transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11 days ago
    Hi Alan

    I have recently done the procedure that Ron describes in reply number 8. For years I have designed tunings for important pianos using Steve Fairchild's FATE system, which designs an EQ 12th using 76 stretch measurements, which can then be downloaded to my SAT.  I recently acquired Verituner and wanted to compare the FATE tunings with the Swafford Pure 12th. After designing a tuning in each for the same piano, I went through the Verituner note by note and entered the tuning, using the same partials as Steve's into the software. When I retuned the piano using my SAT with the Verituner partials I could detect no difference aurally between that tuning and the Verituner version. I was able to graph the tunings from both systems also. I assume you could do this with an RCT, or if you have an SAT and Tuning Manager you could enter the partial values in TM, which you can do from Excel, and download to your SAT. Your friend with the Verituner just needs to notate those partial values in Excel and send it to you. It's simpler than it sounds and really doesn't take a lot of time.

    Regards

    Craig Miller


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    Craig Miller RPT
    Marietta GA
    (770) 321-9390
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  • 17.  RE: transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner