Pianotech

Greetings - My father passed away two years ago and I inherited his Hardman Peck grand which he was having updated, but had sat for a couple decades. All strings had been removed and a new pin block had been installed. I found some old paperwork from a piano shop that indicated they installed a Delignit block, and it appears they accurately drilled the tuning pin holes. It's missing tuning pins but I'm unsure which size to use. I measured several of the tuning pin holes and the diameter is 0.25". The height of the block plus the frame thickness on top of the pin hole is 1.64". I recall that the pins can protrude through the bottom of the block, but how far or what's recommended? Should I buy a set of size 1 or 2 pins, and what length? I'd rather not have to replace loose pins in the future with a larger size. Let me know if you need more details.

Thanks for the advice!

------------------------------
Mad Hatter
Norman OK
(405) 329-1609
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12/21/2022 9:38:00 PM
From: Mad Hatter
Subject: Tuning pin size

Greetings - My father passed away two years ago and I inherited his Hardman Peck grand which he was having updated, but had sat for a couple decades. All strings had been removed and a new pin block had been installed. I found some old paperwork from a piano shop that indicated they installed a Delignit block, and it appears they accurately drilled the tuning pin holes. It's missing tuning pins but I'm unsure which size to use. I measured several of the tuning pin holes and the diameter is 0.25". The height of the block plus the frame thickness on top of the pin hole is 1.64". I recall that the pins can protrude through the bottom of the block, but how far or what's recommended? Should I buy a set of size 1 or 2 pins, and what length? I'd rather not have to replace loose pins in the future with a larger size. Let me know if you need more details.

Thanks for the advice!

------------------------------
Mad Hatter
Norman OK
(405) 329-1609
------------------------------

Good advice. Delignit pinblocks seem to be constructed along the lines of the Baldwin blocks of the post WWII era. These blocks were made of relatively thin veneers saturated with (usually) resorcinol resin adhesives and cured under very high heat and pressures. They were developed to form a material called 'compreg,' or compression impregnated wood fibers. (And that is a whole other story.) What you need to know is that the tuning pin fit is critical, these blocks have very little resiliency. Modern multi-ply maple pinblocks -- the standard stuff you get from most piano parts suppliers -- are relatively tolerant to small variations in tuning pin diameters, Delignit not so much. 

Start with a 1/0 pin in the high treble and see how it feels. If it feels too loose you can always remove it and string the piano with 2/0 pins. (Which is what was originally intended since American rebuilders have a hard time accepting 1/0 pins.)

ddf

------------------------------
[Delwin D] Fandrich] [RPT]
[Piano Design & Manufacturing Consultant]
[Fandrich Piano Co., Inc.]
[Olympia] [WA]
[360-515-0119]
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-21-2022 22:31
From: Edward Foote
Subject: Tuning pin size

If a Delignite block is drilled for .250" I would expect a 2/0 pin to give you upwards of 150 in/lbs of torque, and would be quite a handful to tune.  It has been years since I used one of these blocks, but I remember them as being almost like Falconwood in the density.   I would try a 1/0 pin and get a length that won't protrude from the bottom.  It won't hurt to try a couple of pins in the very top of the block to see what sort of reading you get. 

Regards, 

Original Message:
Sent: 12/21/2022 9:38:00 PM
From: Mad Hatter
Subject: Tuning pin size

Greetings - My father passed away two years ago and I inherited his Hardman Peck grand which he was having updated, but had sat for a couple decades. All strings had been removed and a new pin block had been installed. I found some old paperwork from a piano shop that indicated they installed a Delignit block, and it appears they accurately drilled the tuning pin holes. It's missing tuning pins but I'm unsure which size to use. I measured several of the tuning pin holes and the diameter is 0.25". The height of the block plus the frame thickness on top of the pin hole is 1.64". I recall that the pins can protrude through the bottom of the block, but how far or what's recommended? Should I buy a set of size 1 or 2 pins, and what length? I'd rather not have to replace loose pins in the future with a larger size. Let me know if you need more details.

Thanks for the advice!

------------------------------
Mad Hatter
Norman OK
(405) 329-1609
------------------------------

------------------------------
Tim Foster
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-22-2022 02:54
From: Delwin Fandrich
Subject: Tuning pin size

Good advice. Delignit pinblocks seem to be constructed along the lines of the Baldwin blocks of the post WWII era. These blocks were made of relatively thin veneers saturated with (usually) resorcinol resin adhesives and cured under very high heat and pressures. They were developed to form a material called 'compreg,' or compression impregnated wood fibers. (And that is a whole other story.) What you need to know is that the tuning pin fit is critical, these blocks have very little resiliency. Modern multi-ply maple pinblocks -- the standard stuff you get from most piano parts suppliers -- are relatively tolerant to small variations in tuning pin diameters, Delignit not so much.

Start with a 1/0 pin in the high treble and see how it feels. If it feels too loose you can always remove it and string the piano with 2/0 pins. (Which is what was originally intended since American rebuilders have a hard time accepting 1/0 pins.)

ddf

------------------------------
[Delwin D] Fandrich] [RPT]
[Piano Design & Manufacturing Consultant]
[Fandrich Piano Co., Inc.]
[Olympia] [WA]
[360-515-0119]

Original Message:
Sent: 12-21-2022 22:31
From: Edward Foote
Subject: Tuning pin size

If a Delignite block is drilled for .250" I would expect a 2/0 pin to give you upwards of 150 in/lbs of torque, and would be quite a handful to tune.  It has been years since I used one of these blocks, but I remember them as being almost like Falconwood in the density.   I would try a 1/0 pin and get a length that won't protrude from the bottom.  It won't hurt to try a couple of pins in the very top of the block to see what sort of reading you get. 

Regards, 

Original Message:
Sent: 12/21/2022 9:38:00 PM
From: Mad Hatter
Subject: Tuning pin size

Greetings - My father passed away two years ago and I inherited his Hardman Peck grand which he was having updated, but had sat for a couple decades. All strings had been removed and a new pin block had been installed. I found some old paperwork from a piano shop that indicated they installed a Delignit block, and it appears they accurately drilled the tuning pin holes. It's missing tuning pins but I'm unsure which size to use. I measured several of the tuning pin holes and the diameter is 0.25". The height of the block plus the frame thickness on top of the pin hole is 1.64". I recall that the pins can protrude through the bottom of the block, but how far or what's recommended? Should I buy a set of size 1 or 2 pins, and what length? I'd rather not have to replace loose pins in the future with a larger size. Let me know if you need more details.

Thanks for the advice!

------------------------------
Mad Hatter
Norman OK
(405) 329-1609
------------------------------

Thank you very much to everyone for your advice and information. I think I'll try a 1/0 pin to see how it fits and proceed from there.

Like Tim mentioned, I also wondered if the 0.25" holes were pilot holes, but I don't have a drill press to redrill them slightly larger. The holes are slanted slightly and it appears the shop did a nice job. Is there a downside to using 1/0 pins vs 2/0?

On a side topic, I've replaced sone single pins over the years, but as far as technique for installing them all, is it recommended to support the block from below with a jack or something similar?

Thanks

------------------------------
Mad Hatter
Norman OK
(405) 329-1609
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-24-2022 14:45
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Tuning pin size

I wonder if they were originally pre drilling? With the block drilled at 0.25", the plan may have been to drill slightly larger right before installing.  I'm not very experienced at this point, so please take with a grain of salt, but you may consider measuring the angle of the holes and drilling with a larger bit for size 2 pins.  I have gotten good torque in Delignit with size (letter) "I."  Of course, depending on the situation, this may be more hassle than it's worth. 

------------------------------
Tim Foster
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 12-22-2022 02:54
From: Delwin Fandrich
Subject: Tuning pin size

Good advice. Delignit pinblocks seem to be constructed along the lines of the Baldwin blocks of the post WWII era. These blocks were made of relatively thin veneers saturated with (usually) resorcinol resin adhesives and cured under very high heat and pressures. They were developed to form a material called 'compreg,' or compression impregnated wood fibers. (And that is a whole other story.) What you need to know is that the tuning pin fit is critical, these blocks have very little resiliency. Modern multi-ply maple pinblocks -- the standard stuff you get from most piano parts suppliers -- are relatively tolerant to small variations in tuning pin diameters, Delignit not so much.

Start with a 1/0 pin in the high treble and see how it feels. If it feels too loose you can always remove it and string the piano with 2/0 pins. (Which is what was originally intended since American rebuilders have a hard time accepting 1/0 pins.)

ddf

------------------------------
[Delwin D] Fandrich] [RPT]
[Piano Design & Manufacturing Consultant]
[Fandrich Piano Co., Inc.]
[Olympia] [WA]
[360-515-0119]

Original Message:
Sent: 12-21-2022 22:31
From: Edward Foote
Subject: Tuning pin size

If a Delignite block is drilled for .250" I would expect a 2/0 pin to give you upwards of 150 in/lbs of torque, and would be quite a handful to tune.  It has been years since I used one of these blocks, but I remember them as being almost like Falconwood in the density.   I would try a 1/0 pin and get a length that won't protrude from the bottom.  It won't hurt to try a couple of pins in the very top of the block to see what sort of reading you get. 

Regards, 

Original Message:
Sent: 12/21/2022 9:38:00 PM
From: Mad Hatter
Subject: Tuning pin size

Greetings - My father passed away two years ago and I inherited his Hardman Peck grand which he was having updated, but had sat for a couple decades. All strings had been removed and a new pin block had been installed. I found some old paperwork from a piano shop that indicated they installed a Delignit block, and it appears they accurately drilled the tuning pin holes. It's missing tuning pins but I'm unsure which size to use. I measured several of the tuning pin holes and the diameter is 0.25". The height of the block plus the frame thickness on top of the pin hole is 1.64". I recall that the pins can protrude through the bottom of the block, but how far or what's recommended? Should I buy a set of size 1 or 2 pins, and what length? I'd rather not have to replace loose pins in the future with a larger size. Let me know if you need more details.

Thanks for the advice!

------------------------------
Mad Hatter
Norman OK
(405) 329-1609
------------------------------

Mr Hatter,
You MUST support the pin block with a jack or you'll have a disaster on your hands.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine RPT
Billerica MA
(978) 663-9690
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-25-2022 00:43
From: Mad Hatter
Subject: Tuning pin size

Thank you very much to everyone for your advice and information. I think I'll try a 1/0 pin to see how it fits and proceed from there.

Like Tim mentioned, I also wondered if the 0.25" holes were pilot holes, but I don't have a drill press to redrill them slightly larger. The holes are slanted slightly and it appears the shop did a nice job. Is there a downside to using 1/0 pins vs 2/0?

On a side topic, I've replaced sone single pins over the years, but as far as technique for installing them all, is it recommended to support the block from below with a jack or something similar?

Thanks

------------------------------
Mad Hatter
Norman OK
(405) 329-1609

Original Message:
Sent: 12-24-2022 14:45
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Tuning pin size

I wonder if they were originally pre drilling? With the block drilled at 0.25", the plan may have been to drill slightly larger right before installing.  I'm not very experienced at this point, so please take with a grain of salt, but you may consider measuring the angle of the holes and drilling with a larger bit for size 2 pins.  I have gotten good torque in Delignit with size (letter) "I."  Of course, depending on the situation, this may be more hassle than it's worth. 

------------------------------
Tim Foster
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 12-22-2022 02:54
From: Delwin Fandrich
Subject: Tuning pin size

Good advice. Delignit pinblocks seem to be constructed along the lines of the Baldwin blocks of the post WWII era. These blocks were made of relatively thin veneers saturated with (usually) resorcinol resin adhesives and cured under very high heat and pressures. They were developed to form a material called 'compreg,' or compression impregnated wood fibers. (And that is a whole other story.) What you need to know is that the tuning pin fit is critical, these blocks have very little resiliency. Modern multi-ply maple pinblocks -- the standard stuff you get from most piano parts suppliers -- are relatively tolerant to small variations in tuning pin diameters, Delignit not so much.

Start with a 1/0 pin in the high treble and see how it feels. If it feels too loose you can always remove it and string the piano with 2/0 pins. (Which is what was originally intended since American rebuilders have a hard time accepting 1/0 pins.)

ddf

------------------------------
[Delwin D] Fandrich] [RPT]
[Piano Design & Manufacturing Consultant]
[Fandrich Piano Co., Inc.]
[Olympia] [WA]
[360-515-0119]

Original Message:
Sent: 12-21-2022 22:31
From: Edward Foote
Subject: Tuning pin size

If a Delignite block is drilled for .250" I would expect a 2/0 pin to give you upwards of 150 in/lbs of torque, and would be quite a handful to tune.  It has been years since I used one of these blocks, but I remember them as being almost like Falconwood in the density.   I would try a 1/0 pin and get a length that won't protrude from the bottom.  It won't hurt to try a couple of pins in the very top of the block to see what sort of reading you get. 

Regards, 

Original Message:
Sent: 12/21/2022 9:38:00 PM
From: Mad Hatter
Subject: Tuning pin size

Greetings - My father passed away two years ago and I inherited his Hardman Peck grand which he was having updated, but had sat for a couple decades. All strings had been removed and a new pin block had been installed. I found some old paperwork from a piano shop that indicated they installed a Delignit block, and it appears they accurately drilled the tuning pin holes. It's missing tuning pins but I'm unsure which size to use. I measured several of the tuning pin holes and the diameter is 0.25". The height of the block plus the frame thickness on top of the pin hole is 1.64". I recall that the pins can protrude through the bottom of the block, but how far or what's recommended? Should I buy a set of size 1 or 2 pins, and what length? I'd rather not have to replace loose pins in the future with a larger size. Let me know if you need more details.

Thanks for the advice!

------------------------------
Mad Hatter
Norman OK
(405) 329-1609
------------------------------

If this is your first time doing a complete restringing job, it would be well worth whatever money you have to pay a competent rebuilder to supervise you. Or even have them do it and you watch. This is one of those things that's a lot of work, easy to mess up, and even more work to redo if necessary. Not to mention all the things you don't know that you don't know. It will turn out much better if you at least have supervision this first time, and you won't destroy your piano in the process.

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
Piano Technician / Artisan
(256) 947-9999
www.professional-piano-services.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-25-2022 00:43
From: Mad Hatter
Subject: Tuning pin size

Thank you very much to everyone for your advice and information. I think I'll try a 1/0 pin to see how it fits and proceed from there.

Like Tim mentioned, I also wondered if the 0.25" holes were pilot holes, but I don't have a drill press to redrill them slightly larger. The holes are slanted slightly and it appears the shop did a nice job. Is there a downside to using 1/0 pins vs 2/0?

On a side topic, I've replaced sone single pins over the years, but as far as technique for installing them all, is it recommended to support the block from below with a jack or something similar?

Thanks

------------------------------
Mad Hatter
Norman OK
(405) 329-1609

Original Message:
Sent: 12-24-2022 14:45
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Tuning pin size

I wonder if they were originally pre drilling? With the block drilled at 0.25", the plan may have been to drill slightly larger right before installing.  I'm not very experienced at this point, so please take with a grain of salt, but you may consider measuring the angle of the holes and drilling with a larger bit for size 2 pins.  I have gotten good torque in Delignit with size (letter) "I."  Of course, depending on the situation, this may be more hassle than it's worth. 

------------------------------
Tim Foster
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 12-22-2022 02:54
From: Delwin Fandrich
Subject: Tuning pin size

Good advice. Delignit pinblocks seem to be constructed along the lines of the Baldwin blocks of the post WWII era. These blocks were made of relatively thin veneers saturated with (usually) resorcinol resin adhesives and cured under very high heat and pressures. They were developed to form a material called 'compreg,' or compression impregnated wood fibers. (And that is a whole other story.) What you need to know is that the tuning pin fit is critical, these blocks have very little resiliency. Modern multi-ply maple pinblocks -- the standard stuff you get from most piano parts suppliers -- are relatively tolerant to small variations in tuning pin diameters, Delignit not so much.

Start with a 1/0 pin in the high treble and see how it feels. If it feels too loose you can always remove it and string the piano with 2/0 pins. (Which is what was originally intended since American rebuilders have a hard time accepting 1/0 pins.)

ddf

------------------------------
[Delwin D] Fandrich] [RPT]
[Piano Design & Manufacturing Consultant]
[Fandrich Piano Co., Inc.]
[Olympia] [WA]
[360-515-0119]

Original Message:
Sent: 12-21-2022 22:31
From: Edward Foote
Subject: Tuning pin size

If a Delignite block is drilled for .250" I would expect a 2/0 pin to give you upwards of 150 in/lbs of torque, and would be quite a handful to tune.  It has been years since I used one of these blocks, but I remember them as being almost like Falconwood in the density.   I would try a 1/0 pin and get a length that won't protrude from the bottom.  It won't hurt to try a couple of pins in the very top of the block to see what sort of reading you get. 

Regards, 

Original Message:
Sent: 12/21/2022 9:38:00 PM
From: Mad Hatter
Subject: Tuning pin size

Greetings - My father passed away two years ago and I inherited his Hardman Peck grand which he was having updated, but had sat for a couple decades. All strings had been removed and a new pin block had been installed. I found some old paperwork from a piano shop that indicated they installed a Delignit block, and it appears they accurately drilled the tuning pin holes. It's missing tuning pins but I'm unsure which size to use. I measured several of the tuning pin holes and the diameter is 0.25". The height of the block plus the frame thickness on top of the pin hole is 1.64". I recall that the pins can protrude through the bottom of the block, but how far or what's recommended? Should I buy a set of size 1 or 2 pins, and what length? I'd rather not have to replace loose pins in the future with a larger size. Let me know if you need more details.

Thanks for the advice!

------------------------------
Mad Hatter
Norman OK
(405) 329-1609
------------------------------

Hatter,

I strongly concur with Ben on this. Contact the local PTG chapter and inquire in there is someone who might be interested in providing guidance.



Sent from my iPhone


Original Message:
Sent: 12/25/2022 6:46:00 PM
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: RE: Tuning pin size

If this is your first time doing a complete restringing job, it would be well worth whatever money you have to pay a competent rebuilder to supervise you. Or even have them do it and you watch. This is one of those things that's a lot of work, easy to mess up, and even more work to redo if necessary. Not to mention all the things you don't know that you don't know. It will turn out much better if you at least have supervision this first time, and you won't destroy your piano in the process.

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
Piano Technician / Artisan
(256) 947-9999
www.professional-piano-services.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-25-2022 00:43
From: Mad Hatter
Subject: Tuning pin size

Thank you very much to everyone for your advice and information. I think I'll try a 1/0 pin to see how it fits and proceed from there.

Like Tim mentioned, I also wondered if the 0.25" holes were pilot holes, but I don't have a drill press to redrill them slightly larger. The holes are slanted slightly and it appears the shop did a nice job. Is there a downside to using 1/0 pins vs 2/0?

On a side topic, I've replaced sone single pins over the years, but as far as technique for installing them all, is it recommended to support the block from below with a jack or something similar?

Thanks

------------------------------
Mad Hatter
Norman OK
(405) 329-1609

Original Message:
Sent: 12-24-2022 14:45
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Tuning pin size

I wonder if they were originally pre drilling? With the block drilled at 0.25", the plan may have been to drill slightly larger right before installing.  I'm not very experienced at this point, so please take with a grain of salt, but you may consider measuring the angle of the holes and drilling with a larger bit for size 2 pins.  I have gotten good torque in Delignit with size (letter) "I."  Of course, depending on the situation, this may be more hassle than it's worth. 

------------------------------
Tim Foster
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 12-22-2022 02:54
From: Delwin Fandrich
Subject: Tuning pin size

Good advice. Delignit pinblocks seem to be constructed along the lines of the Baldwin blocks of the post WWII era. These blocks were made of relatively thin veneers saturated with (usually) resorcinol resin adhesives and cured under very high heat and pressures. They were developed to form a material called 'compreg,' or compression impregnated wood fibers. (And that is a whole other story.) What you need to know is that the tuning pin fit is critical, these blocks have very little resiliency. Modern multi-ply maple pinblocks -- the standard stuff you get from most piano parts suppliers -- are relatively tolerant to small variations in tuning pin diameters, Delignit not so much.

Start with a 1/0 pin in the high treble and see how it feels. If it feels too loose you can always remove it and string the piano with 2/0 pins. (Which is what was originally intended since American rebuilders have a hard time accepting 1/0 pins.)

ddf

------------------------------
[Delwin D] Fandrich] [RPT]
[Piano Design & Manufacturing Consultant]
[Fandrich Piano Co., Inc.]
[Olympia] [WA]
[360-515-0119]

Original Message:
Sent: 12-21-2022 22:31
From: Edward Foote
Subject: Tuning pin size

If a Delignite block is drilled for .250" I would expect a 2/0 pin to give you upwards of 150 in/lbs of torque, and would be quite a handful to tune.  It has been years since I used one of these blocks, but I remember them as being almost like Falconwood in the density.   I would try a 1/0 pin and get a length that won't protrude from the bottom.  It won't hurt to try a couple of pins in the very top of the block to see what sort of reading you get. 

Regards, 

Original Message:
Sent: 12/21/2022 9:38:00 PM
From: Mad Hatter
Subject: Tuning pin size

Greetings - My father passed away two years ago and I inherited his Hardman Peck grand which he was having updated, but had sat for a couple decades. All strings had been removed and a new pin block had been installed. I found some old paperwork from a piano shop that indicated they installed a Delignit block, and it appears they accurately drilled the tuning pin holes. It's missing tuning pins but I'm unsure which size to use. I measured several of the tuning pin holes and the diameter is 0.25". The height of the block plus the frame thickness on top of the pin hole is 1.64". I recall that the pins can protrude through the bottom of the block, but how far or what's recommended? Should I buy a set of size 1 or 2 pins, and what length? I'd rather not have to replace loose pins in the future with a larger size. Let me know if you need more details.

Thanks for the advice!

------------------------------
Mad Hatter
Norman OK
(405) 329-1609
------------------------------

Sounds like a good Journal article-even if it doesn't go perfectly. Please take lots of photos!

by the way, if it's restrung, how will you know what string scale to use?

------------------------------
Scott Cole, RPT
rvpianotuner.com
Talent, OR
(541-601-9033
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-25-2022 23:00
From: Kenneth Jeffs
Subject: Tuning pin size

Hatter,

I strongly concur with Ben on this. Contact the local PTG chapter and inquire in there is someone who might be interested in providing guidance.



Sent from my iPhone


Original Message:
Sent: 12/25/2022 6:46:00 PM
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: RE: Tuning pin size

If this is your first time doing a complete restringing job, it would be well worth whatever money you have to pay a competent rebuilder to supervise you. Or even have them do it and you watch. This is one of those things that's a lot of work, easy to mess up, and even more work to redo if necessary. Not to mention all the things you don't know that you don't know. It will turn out much better if you at least have supervision this first time, and you won't destroy your piano in the process.

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
Piano Technician / Artisan
(256) 947-9999
www.professional-piano-services.com

Original Message:
Sent: 12-25-2022 00:43
From: Mad Hatter
Subject: Tuning pin size

Thank you very much to everyone for your advice and information. I think I'll try a 1/0 pin to see how it fits and proceed from there.

Like Tim mentioned, I also wondered if the 0.25" holes were pilot holes, but I don't have a drill press to redrill them slightly larger. The holes are slanted slightly and it appears the shop did a nice job. Is there a downside to using 1/0 pins vs 2/0?

On a side topic, I've replaced sone single pins over the years, but as far as technique for installing them all, is it recommended to support the block from below with a jack or something similar?

Thanks

------------------------------
Mad Hatter
Norman OK
(405) 329-1609

Original Message:
Sent: 12-24-2022 14:45
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Tuning pin size

I wonder if they were originally pre drilling? With the block drilled at 0.25", the plan may have been to drill slightly larger right before installing.  I'm not very experienced at this point, so please take with a grain of salt, but you may consider measuring the angle of the holes and drilling with a larger bit for size 2 pins.  I have gotten good torque in Delignit with size (letter) "I."  Of course, depending on the situation, this may be more hassle than it's worth. 

------------------------------
Tim Foster
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 12-22-2022 02:54
From: Delwin Fandrich
Subject: Tuning pin size

Good advice. Delignit pinblocks seem to be constructed along the lines of the Baldwin blocks of the post WWII era. These blocks were made of relatively thin veneers saturated with (usually) resorcinol resin adhesives and cured under very high heat and pressures. They were developed to form a material called 'compreg,' or compression impregnated wood fibers. (And that is a whole other story.) What you need to know is that the tuning pin fit is critical, these blocks have very little resiliency. Modern multi-ply maple pinblocks -- the standard stuff you get from most piano parts suppliers -- are relatively tolerant to small variations in tuning pin diameters, Delignit not so much.

Start with a 1/0 pin in the high treble and see how it feels. If it feels too loose you can always remove it and string the piano with 2/0 pins. (Which is what was originally intended since American rebuilders have a hard time accepting 1/0 pins.)

ddf

------------------------------
[Delwin D] Fandrich] [RPT]
[Piano Design & Manufacturing Consultant]
[Fandrich Piano Co., Inc.]
[Olympia] [WA]
[360-515-0119]

Original Message:
Sent: 12-21-2022 22:31
From: Edward Foote
Subject: Tuning pin size

If a Delignite block is drilled for .250" I would expect a 2/0 pin to give you upwards of 150 in/lbs of torque, and would be quite a handful to tune.  It has been years since I used one of these blocks, but I remember them as being almost like Falconwood in the density.   I would try a 1/0 pin and get a length that won't protrude from the bottom.  It won't hurt to try a couple of pins in the very top of the block to see what sort of reading you get. 

Regards, 

Original Message:
Sent: 12/21/2022 9:38:00 PM
From: Mad Hatter
Subject: Tuning pin size

Greetings - My father passed away two years ago and I inherited his Hardman Peck grand which he was having updated, but had sat for a couple decades. All strings had been removed and a new pin block had been installed. I found some old paperwork from a piano shop that indicated they installed a Delignit block, and it appears they accurately drilled the tuning pin holes. It's missing tuning pins but I'm unsure which size to use. I measured several of the tuning pin holes and the diameter is 0.25". The height of the block plus the frame thickness on top of the pin hole is 1.64". I recall that the pins can protrude through the bottom of the block, but how far or what's recommended? Should I buy a set of size 1 or 2 pins, and what length? I'd rather not have to replace loose pins in the future with a larger size. Let me know if you need more details.

Thanks for the advice!

------------------------------
Mad Hatter
Norman OK
(405) 329-1609
------------------------------

Thanks Benjamin and Kenneth, those are wise suggestions. You'll be glad to learn since I'm still in the planning and prep stages for the job, I had recently contacted two senior members of my local PTG group who have a shop, and I'll be collaborating with them for advice and supervision even before I begin. 

Scott asked about the tuning scale. I didn't find any gauge markings on the bridge or elsewhere, and earlier this year I once looked through all the piano paperwork for those details. Sadly I didn't find that documentation. I plan to contact Hardman Peck soon about the gauges. That's a critical piece so I'll see how things progress.

------------------------------
Mad Hatter
Norman OK
(405) 329-1609
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-26-2022 11:28
From: Scott Cole
Subject: Tuning pin size

Sounds like a good Journal article-even if it doesn't go perfectly. Please take lots of photos!

by the way, if it's restrung, how will you know what string scale to use?

------------------------------
Scott Cole, RPT
rvpianotuner.com
Talent, OR
(541-601-9033

Original Message:
Sent: 12-25-2022 23:00
From: Kenneth Jeffs
Subject: Tuning pin size

Hatter,

I strongly concur with Ben on this. Contact the local PTG chapter and inquire in there is someone who might be interested in providing guidance.



Sent from my iPhone


Original Message:
Sent: 12/25/2022 6:46:00 PM
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: RE: Tuning pin size

If this is your first time doing a complete restringing job, it would be well worth whatever money you have to pay a competent rebuilder to supervise you. Or even have them do it and you watch. This is one of those things that's a lot of work, easy to mess up, and even more work to redo if necessary. Not to mention all the things you don't know that you don't know. It will turn out much better if you at least have supervision this first time, and you won't destroy your piano in the process.

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
Piano Technician / Artisan
(256) 947-9999
www.professional-piano-services.com

Original Message:
Sent: 12-25-2022 00:43
From: Mad Hatter
Subject: Tuning pin size

Thank you very much to everyone for your advice and information. I think I'll try a 1/0 pin to see how it fits and proceed from there.

Like Tim mentioned, I also wondered if the 0.25" holes were pilot holes, but I don't have a drill press to redrill them slightly larger. The holes are slanted slightly and it appears the shop did a nice job. Is there a downside to using 1/0 pins vs 2/0?

On a side topic, I've replaced sone single pins over the years, but as far as technique for installing them all, is it recommended to support the block from below with a jack or something similar?

Thanks

------------------------------
Mad Hatter
Norman OK
(405) 329-1609

Original Message:
Sent: 12-24-2022 14:45
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Tuning pin size

I wonder if they were originally pre drilling? With the block drilled at 0.25", the plan may have been to drill slightly larger right before installing.  I'm not very experienced at this point, so please take with a grain of salt, but you may consider measuring the angle of the holes and drilling with a larger bit for size 2 pins.  I have gotten good torque in Delignit with size (letter) "I."  Of course, depending on the situation, this may be more hassle than it's worth. 

------------------------------
Tim Foster
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 12-22-2022 02:54
From: Delwin Fandrich
Subject: Tuning pin size

Good advice. Delignit pinblocks seem to be constructed along the lines of the Baldwin blocks of the post WWII era. These blocks were made of relatively thin veneers saturated with (usually) resorcinol resin adhesives and cured under very high heat and pressures. They were developed to form a material called 'compreg,' or compression impregnated wood fibers. (And that is a whole other story.) What you need to know is that the tuning pin fit is critical, these blocks have very little resiliency. Modern multi-ply maple pinblocks -- the standard stuff you get from most piano parts suppliers -- are relatively tolerant to small variations in tuning pin diameters, Delignit not so much.

Start with a 1/0 pin in the high treble and see how it feels. If it feels too loose you can always remove it and string the piano with 2/0 pins. (Which is what was originally intended since American rebuilders have a hard time accepting 1/0 pins.)

ddf

------------------------------
[Delwin D] Fandrich] [RPT]
[Piano Design & Manufacturing Consultant]
[Fandrich Piano Co., Inc.]
[Olympia] [WA]
[360-515-0119]

Original Message:
Sent: 12-21-2022 22:31
From: Edward Foote
Subject: Tuning pin size

If a Delignite block is drilled for .250" I would expect a 2/0 pin to give you upwards of 150 in/lbs of torque, and would be quite a handful to tune.  It has been years since I used one of these blocks, but I remember them as being almost like Falconwood in the density.   I would try a 1/0 pin and get a length that won't protrude from the bottom.  It won't hurt to try a couple of pins in the very top of the block to see what sort of reading you get. 

Regards, 

Original Message:
Sent: 12/21/2022 9:38:00 PM
From: Mad Hatter
Subject: Tuning pin size

Greetings - My father passed away two years ago and I inherited his Hardman Peck grand which he was having updated, but had sat for a couple decades. All strings had been removed and a new pin block had been installed. I found some old paperwork from a piano shop that indicated they installed a Delignit block, and it appears they accurately drilled the tuning pin holes. It's missing tuning pins but I'm unsure which size to use. I measured several of the tuning pin holes and the diameter is 0.25". The height of the block plus the frame thickness on top of the pin hole is 1.64". I recall that the pins can protrude through the bottom of the block, but how far or what's recommended? Should I buy a set of size 1 or 2 pins, and what length? I'd rather not have to replace loose pins in the future with a larger size. Let me know if you need more details.

Thanks for the advice!

------------------------------
Mad Hatter
Norman OK
(405) 329-1609
------------------------------

Here’s a suggestion, at least for the plain wire gauges: look VERY loosely in the pin field, just in case the previous tech marked the gauges in pencil. I see this all the time on restrung pianos.


Original Message:
Sent: 12/26/2022 9:56:00 PM
From: Mad Hatter
Subject: RE: Tuning pin size

Thanks Benjamin and Kenneth, those are wise suggestions. You'll be glad to learn since I'm still in the planning and prep stages for the job, I had recently contacted two senior members of my local PTG group who have a shop, and I'll be collaborating with them for advice and supervision even before I begin. 

Scott asked about the tuning scale. I didn't find any gauge markings on the bridge or elsewhere, and earlier this year I once looked through all the piano paperwork for those details. Sadly I didn't find that documentation. I plan to contact Hardman Peck soon about the gauges. That's a critical piece so I'll see how things progress.

------------------------------
Mad Hatter
Norman OK
(405) 329-1609
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-26-2022 11:28
From: Scott Cole
Subject: Tuning pin size

Sounds like a good Journal article-even if it doesn't go perfectly. Please take lots of photos!

by the way, if it's restrung, how will you know what string scale to use?

------------------------------
Scott Cole, RPT
rvpianotuner.com
Talent, OR
(541-601-9033

Original Message:
Sent: 12-25-2022 23:00
From: Kenneth Jeffs
Subject: Tuning pin size

Hatter,

I strongly concur with Ben on this. Contact the local PTG chapter and inquire in there is someone who might be interested in providing guidance.



Sent from my iPhone


Original Message:
Sent: 12/25/2022 6:46:00 PM
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: RE: Tuning pin size

If this is your first time doing a complete restringing job, it would be well worth whatever money you have to pay a competent rebuilder to supervise you. Or even have them do it and you watch. This is one of those things that's a lot of work, easy to mess up, and even more work to redo if necessary. Not to mention all the things you don't know that you don't know. It will turn out much better if you at least have supervision this first time, and you won't destroy your piano in the process.

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
Piano Technician / Artisan
(256) 947-9999
www.professional-piano-services.com

Original Message:
Sent: 12-25-2022 00:43
From: Mad Hatter
Subject: Tuning pin size

Thank you very much to everyone for your advice and information. I think I'll try a 1/0 pin to see how it fits and proceed from there.

Like Tim mentioned, I also wondered if the 0.25" holes were pilot holes, but I don't have a drill press to redrill them slightly larger. The holes are slanted slightly and it appears the shop did a nice job. Is there a downside to using 1/0 pins vs 2/0?

On a side topic, I've replaced sone single pins over the years, but as far as technique for installing them all, is it recommended to support the block from below with a jack or something similar?

Thanks

------------------------------
Mad Hatter
Norman OK
(405) 329-1609

Original Message:
Sent: 12-24-2022 14:45
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Tuning pin size

I wonder if they were originally pre drilling? With the block drilled at 0.25", the plan may have been to drill slightly larger right before installing.  I'm not very experienced at this point, so please take with a grain of salt, but you may consider measuring the angle of the holes and drilling with a larger bit for size 2 pins.  I have gotten good torque in Delignit with size (letter) "I."  Of course, depending on the situation, this may be more hassle than it's worth. 

------------------------------
Tim Foster
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 12-22-2022 02:54
From: Delwin Fandrich
Subject: Tuning pin size

Good advice. Delignit pinblocks seem to be constructed along the lines of the Baldwin blocks of the post WWII era. These blocks were made of relatively thin veneers saturated with (usually) resorcinol resin adhesives and cured under very high heat and pressures. They were developed to form a material called 'compreg,' or compression impregnated wood fibers. (And that is a whole other story.) What you need to know is that the tuning pin fit is critical, these blocks have very little resiliency. Modern multi-ply maple pinblocks -- the standard stuff you get from most piano parts suppliers -- are relatively tolerant to small variations in tuning pin diameters, Delignit not so much.

Start with a 1/0 pin in the high treble and see how it feels. If it feels too loose you can always remove it and string the piano with 2/0 pins. (Which is what was originally intended since American rebuilders have a hard time accepting 1/0 pins.)

ddf

------------------------------
[Delwin D] Fandrich] [RPT]
[Piano Design & Manufacturing Consultant]
[Fandrich Piano Co., Inc.]
[Olympia] [WA]
[360-515-0119]

Original Message:
Sent: 12-21-2022 22:31
From: Edward Foote
Subject: Tuning pin size

If a Delignite block is drilled for .250" I would expect a 2/0 pin to give you upwards of 150 in/lbs of torque, and would be quite a handful to tune.  It has been years since I used one of these blocks, but I remember them as being almost like Falconwood in the density.   I would try a 1/0 pin and get a length that won't protrude from the bottom.  It won't hurt to try a couple of pins in the very top of the block to see what sort of reading you get. 

Regards, 

Original Message:
Sent: 12/21/2022 9:38:00 PM
From: Mad Hatter
Subject: Tuning pin size

Greetings - My father passed away two years ago and I inherited his Hardman Peck grand which he was having updated, but had sat for a couple decades. All strings had been removed and a new pin block had been installed. I found some old paperwork from a piano shop that indicated they installed a Delignit block, and it appears they accurately drilled the tuning pin holes. It's missing tuning pins but I'm unsure which size to use. I measured several of the tuning pin holes and the diameter is 0.25". The height of the block plus the frame thickness on top of the pin hole is 1.64". I recall that the pins can protrude through the bottom of the block, but how far or what's recommended? Should I buy a set of size 1 or 2 pins, and what length? I'd rather not have to replace loose pins in the future with a larger size. Let me know if you need more details.

Thanks for the advice!

------------------------------
Mad Hatter
Norman OK
(405) 329-1609
------------------------------

I doubt you will find any number to contact H Peck. I suggest you ask if your chapter has a copy of Travis’s A Guide to Restringing. If H Peck grand scales are include it would be a place to start. Your other choice is what most of us have done many times. Obtain a quality digital micrometer and measure string diameters yourself. Keep track of when the unwound wire sizes change and how many notes use the same size wire. I applaud your efforts but also recommend you get a copy of Piano Inside Out.

Ken

Sent from my iPhone


Original Message:
Sent: 12/26/2022 9:56:00 PM
From: Mad Hatter
Subject: RE: Tuning pin size

Thanks Benjamin and Kenneth, those are wise suggestions. You'll be glad to learn since I'm still in the planning and prep stages for the job, I had recently contacted two senior members of my local PTG group who have a shop, and I'll be collaborating with them for advice and supervision even before I begin. 

Scott asked about the tuning scale. I didn't find any gauge markings on the bridge or elsewhere, and earlier this year I once looked through all the piano paperwork for those details. Sadly I didn't find that documentation. I plan to contact Hardman Peck soon about the gauges. That's a critical piece so I'll see how things progress.

------------------------------
Mad Hatter
Norman OK
(405) 329-1609
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-26-2022 11:28
From: Scott Cole
Subject: Tuning pin size

Sounds like a good Journal article-even if it doesn't go perfectly. Please take lots of photos!

by the way, if it's restrung, how will you know what string scale to use?

------------------------------
Scott Cole, RPT
rvpianotuner.com
Talent, OR
(541-601-9033

Original Message:
Sent: 12-25-2022 23:00
From: Kenneth Jeffs
Subject: Tuning pin size

Hatter,

I strongly concur with Ben on this. Contact the local PTG chapter and inquire in there is someone who might be interested in providing guidance.



Sent from my iPhone


Original Message:
Sent: 12/25/2022 6:46:00 PM
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: RE: Tuning pin size

If this is your first time doing a complete restringing job, it would be well worth whatever money you have to pay a competent rebuilder to supervise you. Or even have them do it and you watch. This is one of those things that's a lot of work, easy to mess up, and even more work to redo if necessary. Not to mention all the things you don't know that you don't know. It will turn out much better if you at least have supervision this first time, and you won't destroy your piano in the process.

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
Piano Technician / Artisan
(256) 947-9999
www.professional-piano-services.com

Original Message:
Sent: 12-25-2022 00:43
From: Mad Hatter
Subject: Tuning pin size

Thank you very much to everyone for your advice and information. I think I'll try a 1/0 pin to see how it fits and proceed from there.

Like Tim mentioned, I also wondered if the 0.25" holes were pilot holes, but I don't have a drill press to redrill them slightly larger. The holes are slanted slightly and it appears the shop did a nice job. Is there a downside to using 1/0 pins vs 2/0?

On a side topic, I've replaced sone single pins over the years, but as far as technique for installing them all, is it recommended to support the block from below with a jack or something similar?

Thanks

------------------------------
Mad Hatter
Norman OK
(405) 329-1609

Original Message:
Sent: 12-24-2022 14:45
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Tuning pin size

I wonder if they were originally pre drilling? With the block drilled at 0.25", the plan may have been to drill slightly larger right before installing.  I'm not very experienced at this point, so please take with a grain of salt, but you may consider measuring the angle of the holes and drilling with a larger bit for size 2 pins.  I have gotten good torque in Delignit with size (letter) "I."  Of course, depending on the situation, this may be more hassle than it's worth. 

------------------------------
Tim Foster
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 12-22-2022 02:54
From: Delwin Fandrich
Subject: Tuning pin size

Good advice. Delignit pinblocks seem to be constructed along the lines of the Baldwin blocks of the post WWII era. These blocks were made of relatively thin veneers saturated with (usually) resorcinol resin adhesives and cured under very high heat and pressures. They were developed to form a material called 'compreg,' or compression impregnated wood fibers. (And that is a whole other story.) What you need to know is that the tuning pin fit is critical, these blocks have very little resiliency. Modern multi-ply maple pinblocks -- the standard stuff you get from most piano parts suppliers -- are relatively tolerant to small variations in tuning pin diameters, Delignit not so much.

Start with a 1/0 pin in the high treble and see how it feels. If it feels too loose you can always remove it and string the piano with 2/0 pins. (Which is what was originally intended since American rebuilders have a hard time accepting 1/0 pins.)

ddf

------------------------------
[Delwin D] Fandrich] [RPT]
[Piano Design & Manufacturing Consultant]
[Fandrich Piano Co., Inc.]
[Olympia] [WA]
[360-515-0119]

Original Message:
Sent: 12-21-2022 22:31
From: Edward Foote
Subject: Tuning pin size

If a Delignite block is drilled for .250" I would expect a 2/0 pin to give you upwards of 150 in/lbs of torque, and would be quite a handful to tune.  It has been years since I used one of these blocks, but I remember them as being almost like Falconwood in the density.   I would try a 1/0 pin and get a length that won't protrude from the bottom.  It won't hurt to try a couple of pins in the very top of the block to see what sort of reading you get. 

Regards, 

Original Message:
Sent: 12/21/2022 9:38:00 PM
From: Mad Hatter
Subject: Tuning pin size

Greetings - My father passed away two years ago and I inherited his Hardman Peck grand which he was having updated, but had sat for a couple decades. All strings had been removed and a new pin block had been installed. I found some old paperwork from a piano shop that indicated they installed a Delignit block, and it appears they accurately drilled the tuning pin holes. It's missing tuning pins but I'm unsure which size to use. I measured several of the tuning pin holes and the diameter is 0.25". The height of the block plus the frame thickness on top of the pin hole is 1.64". I recall that the pins can protrude through the bottom of the block, but how far or what's recommended? Should I buy a set of size 1 or 2 pins, and what length? I'd rather not have to replace loose pins in the future with a larger size. Let me know if you need more details.

Thanks for the advice!

------------------------------
Mad Hatter
Norman OK
(405) 329-1609
------------------------------

Based on the OP, it sounds like the strings may no longer be available for measuring...

------------------------------
Tim Foster
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2022 09:29
From: Kenneth Jeffs
Subject: Tuning pin size

I doubt you will find any number to contact H Peck. I suggest you ask if your chapter has a copy of Travis's A Guide to Restringing. If H Peck grand scales are include it would be a place to start. Your other choice is what most of us have done many times. Obtain a quality digital micrometer and measure string diameters yourself. Keep track of when the unwound wire sizes change and how many notes use the same size wire. I applaud your efforts but also recommend you get a copy of Piano Inside Out.

Ken

Sent from my iPhone


Original Message:
Sent: 12/26/2022 9:56:00 PM
From: Mad Hatter
Subject: RE: Tuning pin size

Thanks Benjamin and Kenneth, those are wise suggestions. You'll be glad to learn since I'm still in the planning and prep stages for the job, I had recently contacted two senior members of my local PTG group who have a shop, and I'll be collaborating with them for advice and supervision even before I begin.

Scott asked about the tuning scale. I didn't find any gauge markings on the bridge or elsewhere, and earlier this year I once looked through all the piano paperwork for those details. Sadly I didn't find that documentation. I plan to contact Hardman Peck soon about the gauges. That's a critical piece so I'll see how things progress.

------------------------------
Mad Hatter
Norman OK
(405) 329-1609

Original Message:
Sent: 12-26-2022 11:28
From: Scott Cole
Subject: Tuning pin size

Sounds like a good Journal article-even if it doesn't go perfectly. Please take lots of photos!

by the way, if it's restrung, how will you know what string scale to use?

------------------------------
Scott Cole, RPT
rvpianotuner.com
Talent, OR
(541-601-9033

Original Message:
Sent: 12-25-2022 23:00
From: Kenneth Jeffs
Subject: Tuning pin size

Hatter,

I strongly concur with Ben on this. Contact the local PTG chapter and inquire in there is someone who might be interested in providing guidance.



Sent from my iPhone


Original Message:
Sent: 12/25/2022 6:46:00 PM
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: RE: Tuning pin size

If this is your first time doing a complete restringing job, it would be well worth whatever money you have to pay a competent rebuilder to supervise you. Or even have them do it and you watch. This is one of those things that's a lot of work, easy to mess up, and even more work to redo if necessary. Not to mention all the things you don't know that you don't know. It will turn out much better if you at least have supervision this first time, and you won't destroy your piano in the process.

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
Piano Technician / Artisan
(256) 947-9999
www.professional-piano-services.com

Original Message:
Sent: 12-25-2022 00:43
From: Mad Hatter
Subject: Tuning pin size

Thank you very much to everyone for your advice and information. I think I'll try a 1/0 pin to see how it fits and proceed from there.

Like Tim mentioned, I also wondered if the 0.25" holes were pilot holes, but I don't have a drill press to redrill them slightly larger. The holes are slanted slightly and it appears the shop did a nice job. Is there a downside to using 1/0 pins vs 2/0?

On a side topic, I've replaced sone single pins over the years, but as far as technique for installing them all, is it recommended to support the block from below with a jack or something similar?

Thanks

------------------------------
Mad Hatter
Norman OK
(405) 329-1609

Original Message:
Sent: 12-24-2022 14:45
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Tuning pin size

I wonder if they were originally pre drilling? With the block drilled at 0.25", the plan may have been to drill slightly larger right before installing.  I'm not very experienced at this point, so please take with a grain of salt, but you may consider measuring the angle of the holes and drilling with a larger bit for size 2 pins.  I have gotten good torque in Delignit with size (letter) "I."  Of course, depending on the situation, this may be more hassle than it's worth. 

------------------------------
Tim Foster
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 12-22-2022 02:54
From: Delwin Fandrich
Subject: Tuning pin size

Good advice. Delignit pinblocks seem to be constructed along the lines of the Baldwin blocks of the post WWII era. These blocks were made of relatively thin veneers saturated with (usually) resorcinol resin adhesives and cured under very high heat and pressures. They were developed to form a material called 'compreg,' or compression impregnated wood fibers. (And that is a whole other story.) What you need to know is that the tuning pin fit is critical, these blocks have very little resiliency. Modern multi-ply maple pinblocks -- the standard stuff you get from most piano parts suppliers -- are relatively tolerant to small variations in tuning pin diameters, Delignit not so much.

Start with a 1/0 pin in the high treble and see how it feels. If it feels too loose you can always remove it and string the piano with 2/0 pins. (Which is what was originally intended since American rebuilders have a hard time accepting 1/0 pins.)

ddf

------------------------------
[Delwin D] Fandrich] [RPT]
[Piano Design & Manufacturing Consultant]
[Fandrich Piano Co., Inc.]
[Olympia] [WA]
[360-515-0119]

Original Message:
Sent: 12-21-2022 22:31
From: Edward Foote
Subject: Tuning pin size

If a Delignite block is drilled for .250" I would expect a 2/0 pin to give you upwards of 150 in/lbs of torque, and would be quite a handful to tune.  It has been years since I used one of these blocks, but I remember them as being almost like Falconwood in the density.   I would try a 1/0 pin and get a length that won't protrude from the bottom.  It won't hurt to try a couple of pins in the very top of the block to see what sort of reading you get. 

Regards, 

Original Message:
Sent: 12/21/2022 9:38:00 PM
From: Mad Hatter
Subject: Tuning pin size

Greetings - My father passed away two years ago and I inherited his Hardman Peck grand which he was having updated, but had sat for a couple decades. All strings had been removed and a new pin block had been installed. I found some old paperwork from a piano shop that indicated they installed a Delignit block, and it appears they accurately drilled the tuning pin holes. It's missing tuning pins but I'm unsure which size to use. I measured several of the tuning pin holes and the diameter is 0.25". The height of the block plus the frame thickness on top of the pin hole is 1.64". I recall that the pins can protrude through the bottom of the block, but how far or what's recommended? Should I buy a set of size 1 or 2 pins, and what length? I'd rather not have to replace loose pins in the future with a larger size. Let me know if you need more details.

Thanks for the advice!

------------------------------
Mad Hatter
Norman OK
(405) 329-1609
------------------------------

Thanks for the info Ken, I'll check out that book reference. I thought Hardman Peck had a website earlier this year. 

Tim is correct. In my original post I mentioned I inherited the piano and all strings had been removed due to the pin block being replaced. I've used a micrometer many times in years past to measure string gauges and obtain the scale but couldn't this time. Thankfully the original bass strings were saved and had been strung on heavy wire in original sequence, so I recently sent those off to be replicated.

------------------------------
Mad Hatter
Norman OK
(405) 329-1609
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2022 10:49
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Tuning pin size

Based on the OP, it sounds like the strings may no longer be available for measuring...

------------------------------
Tim Foster
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2022 09:29
From: Kenneth Jeffs
Subject: Tuning pin size

I doubt you will find any number to contact H Peck. I suggest you ask if your chapter has a copy of Travis's A Guide to Restringing. If H Peck grand scales are include it would be a place to start. Your other choice is what most of us have done many times. Obtain a quality digital micrometer and measure string diameters yourself. Keep track of when the unwound wire sizes change and how many notes use the same size wire. I applaud your efforts but also recommend you get a copy of Piano Inside Out.

Ken

Sent from my iPhone


Original Message:
Sent: 12/26/2022 9:56:00 PM
From: Mad Hatter
Subject: RE: Tuning pin size

Thanks Benjamin and Kenneth, those are wise suggestions. You'll be glad to learn since I'm still in the planning and prep stages for the job, I had recently contacted two senior members of my local PTG group who have a shop, and I'll be collaborating with them for advice and supervision even before I begin.

Scott asked about the tuning scale. I didn't find any gauge markings on the bridge or elsewhere, and earlier this year I once looked through all the piano paperwork for those details. Sadly I didn't find that documentation. I plan to contact Hardman Peck soon about the gauges. That's a critical piece so I'll see how things progress.

------------------------------
Mad Hatter
Norman OK
(405) 329-1609

Original Message:
Sent: 12-26-2022 11:28
From: Scott Cole
Subject: Tuning pin size

Sounds like a good Journal article-even if it doesn't go perfectly. Please take lots of photos!

by the way, if it's restrung, how will you know what string scale to use?

------------------------------
Scott Cole, RPT
rvpianotuner.com
Talent, OR
(541-601-9033

Original Message:
Sent: 12-25-2022 23:00
From: Kenneth Jeffs
Subject: Tuning pin size

Hatter,

I strongly concur with Ben on this. Contact the local PTG chapter and inquire in there is someone who might be interested in providing guidance.



Sent from my iPhone


Original Message:
Sent: 12/25/2022 6:46:00 PM
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: RE: Tuning pin size

If this is your first time doing a complete restringing job, it would be well worth whatever money you have to pay a competent rebuilder to supervise you. Or even have them do it and you watch. This is one of those things that's a lot of work, easy to mess up, and even more work to redo if necessary. Not to mention all the things you don't know that you don't know. It will turn out much better if you at least have supervision this first time, and you won't destroy your piano in the process.

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
Piano Technician / Artisan
(256) 947-9999
www.professional-piano-services.com

Original Message:
Sent: 12-25-2022 00:43
From: Mad Hatter
Subject: Tuning pin size

Thank you very much to everyone for your advice and information. I think I'll try a 1/0 pin to see how it fits and proceed from there.

Like Tim mentioned, I also wondered if the 0.25" holes were pilot holes, but I don't have a drill press to redrill them slightly larger. The holes are slanted slightly and it appears the shop did a nice job. Is there a downside to using 1/0 pins vs 2/0?

On a side topic, I've replaced sone single pins over the years, but as far as technique for installing them all, is it recommended to support the block from below with a jack or something similar?

Thanks

------------------------------
Mad Hatter
Norman OK
(405) 329-1609

Original Message:
Sent: 12-24-2022 14:45
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Tuning pin size

I wonder if they were originally pre drilling? With the block drilled at 0.25", the plan may have been to drill slightly larger right before installing.  I'm not very experienced at this point, so please take with a grain of salt, but you may consider measuring the angle of the holes and drilling with a larger bit for size 2 pins.  I have gotten good torque in Delignit with size (letter) "I."  Of course, depending on the situation, this may be more hassle than it's worth. 

------------------------------
Tim Foster
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 12-22-2022 02:54
From: Delwin Fandrich
Subject: Tuning pin size

Good advice. Delignit pinblocks seem to be constructed along the lines of the Baldwin blocks of the post WWII era. These blocks were made of relatively thin veneers saturated with (usually) resorcinol resin adhesives and cured under very high heat and pressures. They were developed to form a material called 'compreg,' or compression impregnated wood fibers. (And that is a whole other story.) What you need to know is that the tuning pin fit is critical, these blocks have very little resiliency. Modern multi-ply maple pinblocks -- the standard stuff you get from most piano parts suppliers -- are relatively tolerant to small variations in tuning pin diameters, Delignit not so much.

Start with a 1/0 pin in the high treble and see how it feels. If it feels too loose you can always remove it and string the piano with 2/0 pins. (Which is what was originally intended since American rebuilders have a hard time accepting 1/0 pins.)

ddf

------------------------------
[Delwin D] Fandrich] [RPT]
[Piano Design & Manufacturing Consultant]
[Fandrich Piano Co., Inc.]
[Olympia] [WA]
[360-515-0119]

Original Message:
Sent: 12-21-2022 22:31
From: Edward Foote
Subject: Tuning pin size

If a Delignite block is drilled for .250" I would expect a 2/0 pin to give you upwards of 150 in/lbs of torque, and would be quite a handful to tune.  It has been years since I used one of these blocks, but I remember them as being almost like Falconwood in the density.   I would try a 1/0 pin and get a length that won't protrude from the bottom.  It won't hurt to try a couple of pins in the very top of the block to see what sort of reading you get. 

Regards, 

Original Message:
Sent: 12/21/2022 9:38:00 PM
From: Mad Hatter
Subject: Tuning pin size

Greetings - My father passed away two years ago and I inherited his Hardman Peck grand which he was having updated, but had sat for a couple decades. All strings had been removed and a new pin block had been installed. I found some old paperwork from a piano shop that indicated they installed a Delignit block, and it appears they accurately drilled the tuning pin holes. It's missing tuning pins but I'm unsure which size to use. I measured several of the tuning pin holes and the diameter is 0.25". The height of the block plus the frame thickness on top of the pin hole is 1.64". I recall that the pins can protrude through the bottom of the block, but how far or what's recommended? Should I buy a set of size 1 or 2 pins, and what length? I'd rather not have to replace loose pins in the future with a larger size. Let me know if you need more details.

Thanks for the advice!

------------------------------
Mad Hatter
Norman OK
(405) 329-1609
------------------------------

FYI, you can also send measurements for bass strings instead of sending old ones depending on the manufacturer.  With Arledge bass strings, all he needs are certain measurements from the piano, not the strings themselves.  I just replaced a full set with them and was very pleased.

------------------------------
Tim Foster
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2022 14:18
From: Mad Hatter
Subject: Tuning pin size

Thanks for the info Ken, I'll check out that book reference. I thought Hardman Peck had a website earlier this year.

Tim is correct. In my original post I mentioned I inherited the piano and all strings had been removed due to the pin block being replaced. I've used a micrometer many times in years past to measure string gauges and obtain the scale but couldn't this time. Thankfully the original bass strings were saved and had been strung on heavy wire in original sequence, so I recently sent those off to be replicated.

------------------------------
Mad Hatter
Norman OK
(405) 329-1609

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2022 10:49
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Tuning pin size

Based on the OP, it sounds like the strings may no longer be available for measuring...

------------------------------
Tim Foster
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 12-27-2022 09:29
From: Kenneth Jeffs
Subject: Tuning pin size

I doubt you will find any number to contact H Peck. I suggest you ask if your chapter has a copy of Travis's A Guide to Restringing. If H Peck grand scales are include it would be a place to start. Your other choice is what most of us have done many times. Obtain a quality digital micrometer and measure string diameters yourself. Keep track of when the unwound wire sizes change and how many notes use the same size wire. I applaud your efforts but also recommend you get a copy of Piano Inside Out.

Ken

Sent from my iPhone


Original Message:
Sent: 12/26/2022 9:56:00 PM
From: Mad Hatter
Subject: RE: Tuning pin size

Thanks Benjamin and Kenneth, those are wise suggestions. You'll be glad to learn since I'm still in the planning and prep stages for the job, I had recently contacted two senior members of my local PTG group who have a shop, and I'll be collaborating with them for advice and supervision even before I begin.

Scott asked about the tuning scale. I didn't find any gauge markings on the bridge or elsewhere, and earlier this year I once looked through all the piano paperwork for those details. Sadly I didn't find that documentation. I plan to contact Hardman Peck soon about the gauges. That's a critical piece so I'll see how things progress.

------------------------------
Mad Hatter
Norman OK
(405) 329-1609

Original Message:
Sent: 12-26-2022 11:28
From: Scott Cole
Subject: Tuning pin size

Sounds like a good Journal article-even if it doesn't go perfectly. Please take lots of photos!

by the way, if it's restrung, how will you know what string scale to use?

------------------------------
Scott Cole, RPT
rvpianotuner.com
Talent, OR
(541-601-9033

Original Message:
Sent: 12-25-2022 23:00
From: Kenneth Jeffs
Subject: Tuning pin size

Hatter,

I strongly concur with Ben on this. Contact the local PTG chapter and inquire in there is someone who might be interested in providing guidance.



Sent from my iPhone


Original Message:
Sent: 12/25/2022 6:46:00 PM
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: RE: Tuning pin size

If this is your first time doing a complete restringing job, it would be well worth whatever money you have to pay a competent rebuilder to supervise you. Or even have them do it and you watch. This is one of those things that's a lot of work, easy to mess up, and even more work to redo if necessary. Not to mention all the things you don't know that you don't know. It will turn out much better if you at least have supervision this first time, and you won't destroy your piano in the process.

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
Piano Technician / Artisan
(256) 947-9999
www.professional-piano-services.com

Original Message:
Sent: 12-25-2022 00:43
From: Mad Hatter
Subject: Tuning pin size

Thank you very much to everyone for your advice and information. I think I'll try a 1/0 pin to see how it fits and proceed from there.

Like Tim mentioned, I also wondered if the 0.25" holes were pilot holes, but I don't have a drill press to redrill them slightly larger. The holes are slanted slightly and it appears the shop did a nice job. Is there a downside to using 1/0 pins vs 2/0?

On a side topic, I've replaced sone single pins over the years, but as far as technique for installing them all, is it recommended to support the block from below with a jack or something similar?

Thanks

------------------------------
Mad Hatter
Norman OK
(405) 329-1609

Original Message:
Sent: 12-24-2022 14:45
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Tuning pin size

I wonder if they were originally pre drilling? With the block drilled at 0.25", the plan may have been to drill slightly larger right before installing.  I'm not very experienced at this point, so please take with a grain of salt, but you may consider measuring the angle of the holes and drilling with a larger bit for size 2 pins.  I have gotten good torque in Delignit with size (letter) "I."  Of course, depending on the situation, this may be more hassle than it's worth. 

------------------------------
Tim Foster
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 12-22-2022 02:54
From: Delwin Fandrich
Subject: Tuning pin size

Good advice. Delignit pinblocks seem to be constructed along the lines of the Baldwin blocks of the post WWII era. These blocks were made of relatively thin veneers saturated with (usually) resorcinol resin adhesives and cured under very high heat and pressures. They were developed to form a material called 'compreg,' or compression impregnated wood fibers. (And that is a whole other story.) What you need to know is that the tuning pin fit is critical, these blocks have very little resiliency. Modern multi-ply maple pinblocks -- the standard stuff you get from most piano parts suppliers -- are relatively tolerant to small variations in tuning pin diameters, Delignit not so much.

Start with a 1/0 pin in the high treble and see how it feels. If it feels too loose you can always remove it and string the piano with 2/0 pins. (Which is what was originally intended since American rebuilders have a hard time accepting 1/0 pins.)

ddf

------------------------------
[Delwin D] Fandrich] [RPT]
[Piano Design & Manufacturing Consultant]
[Fandrich Piano Co., Inc.]
[Olympia] [WA]
[360-515-0119]

Original Message:
Sent: 12-21-2022 22:31
From: Edward Foote
Subject: Tuning pin size

If a Delignite block is drilled for .250" I would expect a 2/0 pin to give you upwards of 150 in/lbs of torque, and would be quite a handful to tune.  It has been years since I used one of these blocks, but I remember them as being almost like Falconwood in the density.   I would try a 1/0 pin and get a length that won't protrude from the bottom.  It won't hurt to try a couple of pins in the very top of the block to see what sort of reading you get. 

Regards, 

Original Message:
Sent: 12/21/2022 9:38:00 PM
From: Mad Hatter
Subject: Tuning pin size

Greetings - My father passed away two years ago and I inherited his Hardman Peck grand which he was having updated, but had sat for a couple decades. All strings had been removed and a new pin block had been installed. I found some old paperwork from a piano shop that indicated they installed a Delignit block, and it appears they accurately drilled the tuning pin holes. It's missing tuning pins but I'm unsure which size to use. I measured several of the tuning pin holes and the diameter is 0.25". The height of the block plus the frame thickness on top of the pin hole is 1.64". I recall that the pins can protrude through the bottom of the block, but how far or what's recommended? Should I buy a set of size 1 or 2 pins, and what length? I'd rather not have to replace loose pins in the future with a larger size. Let me know if you need more details.

Thanks for the advice!

------------------------------
Mad Hatter
Norman OK
(405) 329-1609
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12/26/2022 11:28:00 AM
From: Scott Cole
Subject: RE: Tuning pin size

Sounds like a good Journal article-even if it doesn't go perfectly. Please take lots of photos!

by the way, if it's restrung, how will you know what string scale to use?

------------------------------
Scott Cole, RPT
rvpianotuner.com
Talent, OR
(541-601-9033
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-25-2022 23:00
From: Kenneth Jeffs
Subject: Tuning pin size

Hatter,

I strongly concur with Ben on this. Contact the local PTG chapter and inquire in there is someone who might be interested in providing guidance.



Sent from my iPhone


Original Message:
Sent: 12/25/2022 6:46:00 PM
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: RE: Tuning pin size

If this is your first time doing a complete restringing job, it would be well worth whatever money you have to pay a competent rebuilder to supervise you. Or even have them do it and you watch. This is one of those things that's a lot of work, easy to mess up, and even more work to redo if necessary. Not to mention all the things you don't know that you don't know. It will turn out much better if you at least have supervision this first time, and you won't destroy your piano in the process.

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
Piano Technician / Artisan
(256) 947-9999
www.professional-piano-services.com

Original Message:
Sent: 12-25-2022 00:43
From: Mad Hatter
Subject: Tuning pin size

Thank you very much to everyone for your advice and information. I think I'll try a 1/0 pin to see how it fits and proceed from there.

Like Tim mentioned, I also wondered if the 0.25" holes were pilot holes, but I don't have a drill press to redrill them slightly larger. The holes are slanted slightly and it appears the shop did a nice job. Is there a downside to using 1/0 pins vs 2/0?

On a side topic, I've replaced sone single pins over the years, but as far as technique for installing them all, is it recommended to support the block from below with a jack or something similar?

Thanks

------------------------------
Mad Hatter
Norman OK
(405) 329-1609

Original Message:
Sent: 12-24-2022 14:45
From: Tim Foster
Subject: Tuning pin size

I wonder if they were originally pre drilling? With the block drilled at 0.25", the plan may have been to drill slightly larger right before installing.  I'm not very experienced at this point, so please take with a grain of salt, but you may consider measuring the angle of the holes and drilling with a larger bit for size 2 pins.  I have gotten good torque in Delignit with size (letter) "I."  Of course, depending on the situation, this may be more hassle than it's worth. 

------------------------------
Tim Foster
New Oxford PA
(470) 231-6074

Original Message:
Sent: 12-22-2022 02:54
From: Delwin Fandrich
Subject: Tuning pin size

Good advice. Delignit pinblocks seem to be constructed along the lines of the Baldwin blocks of the post WWII era. These blocks were made of relatively thin veneers saturated with (usually) resorcinol resin adhesives and cured under very high heat and pressures. They were developed to form a material called 'compreg,' or compression impregnated wood fibers. (And that is a whole other story.) What you need to know is that the tuning pin fit is critical, these blocks have very little resiliency. Modern multi-ply maple pinblocks -- the standard stuff you get from most piano parts suppliers -- are relatively tolerant to small variations in tuning pin diameters, Delignit not so much.

Start with a 1/0 pin in the high treble and see how it feels. If it feels too loose you can always remove it and string the piano with 2/0 pins. (Which is what was originally intended since American rebuilders have a hard time accepting 1/0 pins.)

ddf

------------------------------
[Delwin D] Fandrich] [RPT]
[Piano Design & Manufacturing Consultant]
[Fandrich Piano Co., Inc.]
[Olympia] [WA]
[360-515-0119]

Original Message:
Sent: 12-21-2022 22:31
From: Edward Foote
Subject: Tuning pin size

If a Delignite block is drilled for .250" I would expect a 2/0 pin to give you upwards of 150 in/lbs of torque, and would be quite a handful to tune.  It has been years since I used one of these blocks, but I remember them as being almost like Falconwood in the density.   I would try a 1/0 pin and get a length that won't protrude from the bottom.  It won't hurt to try a couple of pins in the very top of the block to see what sort of reading you get. 

Regards, 

Original Message:
Sent: 12/21/2022 9:38:00 PM
From: Mad Hatter
Subject: Tuning pin size

Greetings - My father passed away two years ago and I inherited his Hardman Peck grand which he was having updated, but had sat for a couple decades. All strings had been removed and a new pin block had been installed. I found some old paperwork from a piano shop that indicated they installed a Delignit block, and it appears they accurately drilled the tuning pin holes. It's missing tuning pins but I'm unsure which size to use. I measured several of the tuning pin holes and the diameter is 0.25". The height of the block plus the frame thickness on top of the pin hole is 1.64". I recall that the pins can protrude through the bottom of the block, but how far or what's recommended? Should I buy a set of size 1 or 2 pins, and what length? I'd rather not have to replace loose pins in the future with a larger size. Let me know if you need more details.

Thanks for the advice!

------------------------------
Mad Hatter
Norman OK
(405) 329-1609
------------------------------