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Tuning pins - does anyone notice anything?

  • 1.  Tuning pins - does anyone notice anything?

    Posted 04-21-2023 21:13

    This week I had the pleasure of bringing Sir Arthur Sullivan's Broadwood (number 2315 - late 1883) neglected for decades back to life at D'Oyly Carte Island on the River Thames. It was a full two semitones down. In parallel to another recent thread about pitch raises in one, I tuned the central octave to 444 and then tuned all octaves in the order of C E G# D F# Bb C# F Eb G B at the end of which the instrument had settled at a stable 436 with only four strings broken. (To my mind if an instrument's strings can't be tuned to 444 without breaking they'll be breaking in the normal course of tuning at 440 anyway . . . )

    Whilst working on the instrument, something dawned on me . . . 



    Of course made for Sir Arthur Sullivan one wouldn't expect anything less . . . Has anyone seen anything like this before? In restringing could anyone confidently aim to achieve this now?

    Best wishes

    David P


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    David Pinnegar BSc ARCS
    Hammerwood Park, East Grinstead, Sussex, UK
    +44 1342 850594
    "High Definition" Tuning
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  • 2.  RE: Tuning pins - does anyone notice anything?

    Member
    Posted 04-21-2023 22:42

    the tuning pins have an interesting shape to them and all have close to the same direction. Full agraffes seem to keep the strings spaced evenly. I am also guessing that there is a hitch pin for each string in other words it is straight strung. 



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    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
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  • 3.  RE: Tuning pins - does anyone notice anything?

    Posted 04-22-2023 06:09
    Yes - standard 19th century oblong tuning pins - but it's the
    alignment of directions . . .

    Yes - individually strung but even so . . . in restringing could
    anyone expect to achieve that uniformity of tuned directions? I found
    it quite a shock when I realised.

    Best wishes

    David P

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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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    +44 1342 850594




  • 4.  RE: Tuning pins - does anyone notice anything?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-22-2023 07:31

    Not really exceptional. Quality restringing keeps all beckets aligned.



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    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
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  • 5.  RE: Tuning pins - does anyone notice anything?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-22-2023 05:30

    I have 2 Fortepianos that I service and both have the exact oblong tuning pin. 

     

    Tom Servinsky 

    Registered Piano Technician

    Concert Artist Piano Technician

    Director/Conductor- Academy Orchestra

    Managing Conductor-Treasure Coast Youth Symphony

    Keyboardist- Beatles Re-Imagined

    Pianist with TLC Jazz Duo

    tompiano@tomservinsky.com

    772 221 1011 office

    772 260 7110 cell

     






  • 6.  RE: Tuning pins - does anyone notice anything?

    Posted 04-22-2023 11:08
    That's only half the point - they're all aligned.

    Larry - good to know that people are still doing this aligning the beckets. I've not come across it before and marvel at it.

    How does one do it? It's not just a matter of aligning the beckets at the start of 3+ turns but bringing them all to pitch with the same angular change.

    So the length of the cut string has to be precise, and the strings correctly scaled to result in same angular movement on each note to result in the same change to pitch. Attempting this looks like a horrifying challenge to me . . . 

    Best wishes

    David P






  • 7.  RE: Tuning pins - does anyone notice anything?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-22-2023 17:25
    Actually with a good jig, it's quite doable.


    Tom Servinsky
    Registered Piano Technician
    Concert Artist Piano Technician
    Director/Conductor- Academy Orchestra
    Assist. Conductor-Treasure Coast Youth Symphony
    Clarinetist-Atlantic Classical Orchestra
    772 221 1011 office
    772 260 7110 cell





  • 8.  RE: Tuning pins - does anyone notice anything?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-22-2023 20:07

    I use a 3" mark on my wire cutters, measure from the key side of the hole. 



    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Tuning pins - does anyone notice anything?

    Posted 04-23-2023 07:07
    Larry - thanks.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLlrPZjiSBg is my mentor showing how such an instrument is restrung.

    Aligning the pins at the start and ensuring the wire was cut regularly did not do the trick of enabling all the pins to align when tuned.

    I think there was more to it than just this.

    Best wishes

    David P

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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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    +44 1342 850594





  • 10.  RE: Tuning pins - does anyone notice anything?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-23-2023 07:54

    David

    This is where you need to pull the slack out of the new string before cutting the length.  My technique is to cut the string about 1-2" longer than needed. Then once the string has been through the agraffes, then around the hitch pin, use pliers to firmly pull the string tightly to take out the excessive slack. Then once the length has been established, then cut the wire.  One of the muscle memory things that I pay attention to how much pull is given to each string. Keep in mind that as you get into the 16 ½- 20 sized strings, it's a lot harder to get all of the slack, vs the smaller sized strings. Normally my pins are right at 12 o'clock. But as I go into the lower tenor area, I turn the becket hole to 10 o'clock, which seems to compensate for the situation. This method ensures a very reliable, good looking string job with strings coils even throughout the piano.

     

    Tom Servinsky 

    Registered Piano Technician

    Concert Artist Piano Technician

    Director/Conductor- Academy Orchestra

    Managing Conductor-Treasure Coast Youth Symphony

    Keyboardist- Beatles Re-Imagined

    Pianist with TLC Jazz Duo

    tompiano@tomservinsky.com

    772 221 1011 office

    772 260 7110 cell

     






  • 11.  RE: Tuning pins - does anyone notice anything?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-24-2023 14:05

    Thank you so much for sharing this video David. This explains many questions I have especially regarding my Broadwood cottage grand action.  Unfortunately, my soundboard is full of cracks but the sound still seems good. Strings were breaking as I started tuning so I lowered the pitch to the average low pitch at around 150 cents lower than A=440. I do have a Broadwood book that describes a set of three tuning fork pitches to choose from during a certain period (1870's?) that came with some pianos. One of the pitches was considerably above 440. I don't have time today to write more about that but if anyone is interested I will look it up in a couple weeks.
    Many of my tuning pins are too loose to hold. Does anyone have experience with Broadwood pins that are too loose in the pinblock below the threaded plate? It seems to be a good structural arrangement. Turning the pins and setting the strings definitely has a unique feel that one could adapt to.  If I recall correctly, Broadwood used this and a similar variation/s of threaded tuning pin/plate from 1862-1892). I have put my Broadwood aside for now to work on other projects but I look forward to hopefully spending more time with this beautifully veneered piano some day. 

    By the way, the photos of the rectangular tuning pins that started this conversation, seem to have some type of tuning pin bushing and may not be the same type of machine threaded tuning pin as in the video or that my Broadwood has.



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    Jonathan Moberg RPT
    Shorewood WI
    (414) 962-2227
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  • 12.  RE: Tuning pins - does anyone notice anything?

    Posted 04-24-2023 15:19
    Dear Jonathan

    Thanks so much for expression of appreciation.

    The original Broadwood stringing did have felt washers at the bases of the tuning pins.

    Upon restringing of the cottage grand, a number of pins were loose. I started marking loose pins putting numbers of washers above the coils identifying mild and two for severe. We tipped the instrument upside down and put three drops of CA through the bottom of the tuning plank holes and this made many better. The instrument is now tunable but I need to repeat the process. However one needs a sensitive tuning technique where friction of the tuning pin in the threaded hole is just enough for the pin to stick, but a feather-weight pressure on the tuning lever will cause the pin to slip catastrophically and one has to go for another run at it. If in extremis, one can use a microdrop of CA in the screw thread but this can lock the pin solid if too much and cause a broken pin. In this case a succession of drops of acetone will release it.

    Pitch - these instruments weren't designed for low pitch. 

    " On the bass end of their grand soundboards of this period is inscribed: "Notice toTuners. Patent pin piece screw pins. Pins being screwed into the metal and wood must not be struck with the hammer. Should a string break take the coils off without drawing the pin then turn the pin one eighth and one sixteenth, cut the new length of wire of three inches behind the pin and insert the end in the drilled hole." From1849 to 1854 their medium pitch was A-445.9."

    apparently in 1880 Brinsmead, Broadwood, Erard, and Steinway useda pitch of A-455, although a New York tuning fork of Steinwayis said to have a pitch of 458. So I'm afraid if we really must have authenticity in all things, then before Liszt, Brahms, etc. can be performed on pianos of the age, there are going to be a lot more broken strings. During his London visit of 1886 Liszt was persuaded to write to Broadwood commending the tone of one of their instruments that he heard at Grosvenor Gallery: "No pianofortes last so well as Broadwood's." "

    Allowing the instrument to be tuned below 440 will not give proper tone and really does the instrument and the reputation of these instruments a disservice.

    In the top registers I've had troubles with false beats on the treble strings but as the top end after restringing is coming up to 440 pitch reliably, the trouble is abating. I thought it could also be on account of the crown being lost in the soundboard in the top octave.

    https://youtu.be/AHAZjcPmtrs?t=2808 is the Cottage grand as currently tuned in Meantone. On account of one or two tuning pin difficulties total perfection of unisons on all notes isn't capable of being perfect but not so bad as to cause me to spend time on the issue currently.

    It's shortly going to be retuned to Kirnberger III. In comparison with pianos with which we're more familiar I rudely say that the Broadwood is tonally deficient and as a result can tolerate a really stronger flavour of unequal temperament than can be tolerated easily on other instruments.

    Here's the Cottage Grand https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmuVipZMmK0 tuned to Kirnberger III in trio.

    As a footnote, friends who know what I'm capable of take advantage of me - here's an instrument https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-uH4YE-A2g which 3 hours before a recital was a tuning wreck.

    I was called in to look at the Arthur Sullivan Broadwood (a Boudoir grand) as another tuner had come in and dismissed it out of hand saying the pins were too loose. Well actually only three pins are and only one untunable. The challenge was very rusty strings and being more than a tone down. I warned the owner accordingly that it was useless unless brought up to 440 or near - 436 being near enough in my opinion for their purposes - and that there was a risk of needing a total restring.  There might possibly be an opportunity to do just the octave above the treble break but I need to do a tension analysis to see if excess tension there is responsible for the strings having broken in that region. The owners are wholly unmusical and won't appreciate spending £XXXXs on a total restring unless they can be persuaded that the instrument brings enthusiasm to their project which is entirely visual at the moment rather than aural. https://www.doylycarteisland.com/  

    Old pianos are out of fashion and possibly because they're so often so badly presented but I hope that these videos demonstrate what's possible.

    Here's the sort of bad presentation of a historic instrument of which I complain https://youtu.be/PCbNs1YbAj8?t=2393 Why, for heavens sake, should an instrument be out of tune and tolerated as such just because it's historic?

    No - that instrument should sound like this - https://youtu.be/9QaW4rrjkd0?t=21 and it can sound better even. It's the Iron Concert Grand of 1859. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-W8oRAd6Bw is more as it should be.

    Likewise, https://youtu.be/xwh4Xb1waC0?t=2271 is an instrument of 1854. No doubt people here have heard YouTube demonstrations of 19th century instruments and Broadwoods in particular sounding really terrible - and they shouldn't.

    So I hope that this thread might encourage more to embrace the 19th century instrument appropriately professionally.

    Best wishes

    David P



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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594