Pianotech

Hello.

I recently tuned a Kawai Grand that had been reasonably maintained in a mostly controlled environment.  Tuning was uneventful, basic amount of friction (not measured), tuning seemed stable, all was well with the world. :)

A week later client stated D5 was out of tune.  I found two of the three strings (in the unison) had wandered.  Re-tuned, tested, test blow, all good.  Just this one note.

A few days later, D5 out again, E5 starting to wane a bit.  After a bit of research, it seems a potential tuning pin issue (hammered them down slightly - same problem) or possible bridge pin issue.  Removed tension from the string and I could ever so slightly move the bridge pins on those strings.  I added some thin CA glue and this time D5 and E5 stayed reasonable for 2-3 weeks, then started to go again.  The rest of the tuning is fine, just a small set of notes in the 5th octave.

Previous tuner apparently had a similar issue in the 6th and 7th octave.  I can see the same discoloration from CA glue on those bridge pins.  Unfortunately I can no longer ask him about it.

So, my questions:

1. Is this tuning technique, just for a couple notes?
2. Is it a bridge pin issue or something else?
3. Can I tap the bridge pins like I did for the tuning pins and would it make a difference?
4. Is there any alternative to removing the pins, expoxying the holes, re-drilling and re-inserting?
   4a. Is it likely to solve the problem?

Thanks for your help and insight.

- Adam

Hello.

I recently tuned a Kawai Grand that had been reasonably maintained in a mostly controlled environment.  Tuning was uneventful, basic amount of friction (not measured), tuning seemed stable, all was well with the world. :)

A week later client stated D5 was out of tune.  I found two of the three strings (in the unison) had wandered.  Re-tuned, tested, test blow, all good.  Just this one note.

A few days later, D5 out again, E5 starting to wane a bit.  After a bit of research, it seems a potential tuning pin issue (hammered them down slightly - same problem) or possible bridge pin issue.  Removed tension from the string and I could ever so slightly move the bridge pins on those strings.  I added some thin CA glue and this time D5 and E5 stayed reasonable for 2-3 weeks, then started to go again.  The rest of the tuning is fine, just a small set of notes in the 5th octave.

Previous tuner apparently had a similar issue in the 6th and 7th octave.  I can see the same discoloration from CA glue on those bridge pins.  Unfortunately I can no longer ask him about it.

So, my questions:

1. Is this tuning technique, just for a couple notes?
2. Is it a bridge pin issue or something else?
3. Can I tap the bridge pins like I did for the tuning pins and would it make a difference?
4. Is there any alternative to removing the pins, expoxying the holes, re-drilling and re-inserting?
   4a. Is it likely to solve the problem?

Thanks for your help and insight.

- Adam

Hello.

I recently tuned a Kawai Grand that had been reasonably maintained in a mostly controlled environment.  Tuning was uneventful, basic amount of friction (not measured), tuning seemed stable, all was well with the world. :)

A week later client stated D5 was out of tune.  I found two of the three strings (in the unison) had wandered.  Re-tuned, tested, test blow, all good.  Just this one note.

A few days later, D5 out again, E5 starting to wane a bit.  After a bit of research, it seems a potential tuning pin issue (hammered them down slightly - same problem) or possible bridge pin issue.  Removed tension from the string and I could ever so slightly move the bridge pins on those strings.  I added some thin CA glue and this time D5 and E5 stayed reasonable for 2-3 weeks, then started to go again.  The rest of the tuning is fine, just a small set of notes in the 5th octave.

Previous tuner apparently had a similar issue in the 6th and 7th octave.  I can see the same discoloration from CA glue on those bridge pins.  Unfortunately I can no longer ask him about it.

So, my questions:

1. Is this tuning technique, just for a couple notes?
2. Is it a bridge pin issue or something else?
3. Can I tap the bridge pins like I did for the tuning pins and would it make a difference?
4. Is there any alternative to removing the pins, expoxying the holes, re-drilling and re-inserting?
   4a. Is it likely to solve the problem?

Thanks for your help and insight.

- Adam

Thanks Wim.  :) I will check that and see if it makes a difference.

More questions, of course! :)

1. What is the recommended torque value, if any besides tight?
2. How would tightening the plate have an effect on only a small group of notes, vs the entire piano?

Thanks. :)

Hello.

I recently tuned a Kawai Grand that had been reasonably maintained in a mostly controlled environment.  Tuning was uneventful, basic amount of friction (not measured), tuning seemed stable, all was well with the world. :)

A week later client stated D5 was out of tune.  I found two of the three strings (in the unison) had wandered.  Re-tuned, tested, test blow, all good.  Just this one note.

A few days later, D5 out again, E5 starting to wane a bit.  After a bit of research, it seems a potential tuning pin issue (hammered them down slightly - same problem) or possible bridge pin issue.  Removed tension from the string and I could ever so slightly move the bridge pins on those strings.  I added some thin CA glue and this time D5 and E5 stayed reasonable for 2-3 weeks, then started to go again.  The rest of the tuning is fine, just a small set of notes in the 5th octave.

Previous tuner apparently had a similar issue in the 6th and 7th octave.  I can see the same discoloration from CA glue on those bridge pins.  Unfortunately I can no longer ask him about it.

So, my questions:

1. Is this tuning technique, just for a couple notes?
2. Is it a bridge pin issue or something else?
3. Can I tap the bridge pins like I did for the tuning pins and would it make a difference?
4. Is there any alternative to removing the pins, expoxying the holes, re-drilling and re-inserting?
   4a. Is it likely to solve the problem?

Thanks for your help and insight.

- Adam

Thanks Wim.  :) I will check that and see if it makes a difference.

More questions, of course! :)

1. What is the recommended torque value, if any besides tight?
2. How would tightening the plate have an effect on only a small group of notes, vs the entire piano?

Thanks. :)

Hello.

I recently tuned a Kawai Grand that had been reasonably maintained in a mostly controlled environment.  Tuning was uneventful, basic amount of friction (not measured), tuning seemed stable, all was well with the world. :)

A week later client stated D5 was out of tune.  I found two of the three strings (in the unison) had wandered.  Re-tuned, tested, test blow, all good.  Just this one note.

A few days later, D5 out again, E5 starting to wane a bit.  After a bit of research, it seems a potential tuning pin issue (hammered them down slightly - same problem) or possible bridge pin issue.  Removed tension from the string and I could ever so slightly move the bridge pins on those strings.  I added some thin CA glue and this time D5 and E5 stayed reasonable for 2-3 weeks, then started to go again.  The rest of the tuning is fine, just a small set of notes in the 5th octave.

Previous tuner apparently had a similar issue in the 6th and 7th octave.  I can see the same discoloration from CA glue on those bridge pins.  Unfortunately I can no longer ask him about it.

So, my questions:

1. Is this tuning technique, just for a couple notes?
2. Is it a bridge pin issue or something else?
3. Can I tap the bridge pins like I did for the tuning pins and would it make a difference?
4. Is there any alternative to removing the pins, expoxying the holes, re-drilling and re-inserting?
   4a. Is it likely to solve the problem?

Thanks for your help and insight.

- Adam

Sounds good, thanks. :)

I am also adding a video of the D5 bridge pins (below).  Notice how there is a (relatively) big gap in the holes when the pins are not under tension and then as the string is pulled tight the pins are shifted to the left.  I presume this is not supposed to happen?

Can the pins be hammered?  Would it help?

Thanks.  :)

Bridge pins moving under tension video link

Thanks Wim.  :) I will check that and see if it makes a difference.

More questions, of course! :)

1. What is the recommended torque value, if any besides tight?
2. How would tightening the plate have an effect on only a small group of notes, vs the entire piano?

Thanks. :)

Hello.

I recently tuned a Kawai Grand that had been reasonably maintained in a mostly controlled environment.  Tuning was uneventful, basic amount of friction (not measured), tuning seemed stable, all was well with the world. :)

A week later client stated D5 was out of tune.  I found two of the three strings (in the unison) had wandered.  Re-tuned, tested, test blow, all good.  Just this one note.

A few days later, D5 out again, E5 starting to wane a bit.  After a bit of research, it seems a potential tuning pin issue (hammered them down slightly - same problem) or possible bridge pin issue.  Removed tension from the string and I could ever so slightly move the bridge pins on those strings.  I added some thin CA glue and this time D5 and E5 stayed reasonable for 2-3 weeks, then started to go again.  The rest of the tuning is fine, just a small set of notes in the 5th octave.

Previous tuner apparently had a similar issue in the 6th and 7th octave.  I can see the same discoloration from CA glue on those bridge pins.  Unfortunately I can no longer ask him about it.

So, my questions:

1. Is this tuning technique, just for a couple notes?
2. Is it a bridge pin issue or something else?
3. Can I tap the bridge pins like I did for the tuning pins and would it make a difference?
4. Is there any alternative to removing the pins, expoxying the holes, re-drilling and re-inserting?
   4a. Is it likely to solve the problem?

Thanks for your help and insight.

- Adam

Original Message:
Sent: 12/11/2023 8:21:00 PM
From: Adam Drobnis
Subject: RE: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Sounds good, thanks. :)

I am also adding a video of the D5 bridge pins (below).  Notice how there is a (relatively) big gap in the holes when the pins are not under tension and then as the string is pulled tight the pins are shifted to the left.  I presume this is not supposed to happen?

Can the pins be hammered?  Would it help?

Thanks.  :)

Bridge pins moving under tension video link

------------------------------
Adam

Original Message:
Sent: 12-11-2023 18:22
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Original Message:
Sent: 12/11/2023 6:07:00 PM
From: Adam Drobnis
Subject: RE: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Thanks Wim.  :) I will check that and see if it makes a difference.

More questions, of course! :)

1. What is the recommended torque value, if any besides tight?
2. How would tightening the plate have an effect on only a small group of notes, vs the entire piano?

Thanks. :)

------------------------------
Adam

Original Message:
Sent: 12-11-2023 13:58
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Original Message:
Sent: 12/11/2023 1:34:00 PM
From: Adam Drobnis
Subject: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Hello.

I recently tuned a Kawai Grand that had been reasonably maintained in a mostly controlled environment.  Tuning was uneventful, basic amount of friction (not measured), tuning seemed stable, all was well with the world. :)

A week later client stated D5 was out of tune.  I found two of the three strings (in the unison) had wandered.  Re-tuned, tested, test blow, all good.  Just this one note.

A few days later, D5 out again, E5 starting to wane a bit.  After a bit of research, it seems a potential tuning pin issue (hammered them down slightly - same problem) or possible bridge pin issue.  Removed tension from the string and I could ever so slightly move the bridge pins on those strings.  I added some thin CA glue and this time D5 and E5 stayed reasonable for 2-3 weeks, then started to go again.  The rest of the tuning is fine, just a small set of notes in the 5th octave.

Previous tuner apparently had a similar issue in the 6th and 7th octave.  I can see the same discoloration from CA glue on those bridge pins.  Unfortunately I can no longer ask him about it.

So, my questions:

1. Is this tuning technique, just for a couple notes?
2. Is it a bridge pin issue or something else?
3. Can I tap the bridge pins like I did for the tuning pins and would it make a difference?
4. Is there any alternative to removing the pins, expoxying the holes, re-drilling and re-inserting?
   4a. Is it likely to solve the problem?

Thanks for your help and insight.

- Adam

------------------------------
Adam
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12/11/2023 6:07:00 PM
From: Adam Drobnis
Subject: RE: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Thanks Wim.  :) I will check that and see if it makes a difference.

More questions, of course! :)

1. What is the recommended torque value, if any besides tight?
2. How would tightening the plate have an effect on only a small group of notes, vs the entire piano?

Thanks. :)

------------------------------
Adam

Original Message:
Sent: 12-11-2023 13:58
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Original Message:
Sent: 12/11/2023 1:34:00 PM
From: Adam Drobnis
Subject: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Hello.

I recently tuned a Kawai Grand that had been reasonably maintained in a mostly controlled environment.  Tuning was uneventful, basic amount of friction (not measured), tuning seemed stable, all was well with the world. :)

A week later client stated D5 was out of tune.  I found two of the three strings (in the unison) had wandered.  Re-tuned, tested, test blow, all good.  Just this one note.

A few days later, D5 out again, E5 starting to wane a bit.  After a bit of research, it seems a potential tuning pin issue (hammered them down slightly - same problem) or possible bridge pin issue.  Removed tension from the string and I could ever so slightly move the bridge pins on those strings.  I added some thin CA glue and this time D5 and E5 stayed reasonable for 2-3 weeks, then started to go again.  The rest of the tuning is fine, just a small set of notes in the 5th octave.

Previous tuner apparently had a similar issue in the 6th and 7th octave.  I can see the same discoloration from CA glue on those bridge pins.  Unfortunately I can no longer ask him about it.

So, my questions:

1. Is this tuning technique, just for a couple notes?
2. Is it a bridge pin issue or something else?
3. Can I tap the bridge pins like I did for the tuning pins and would it make a difference?
4. Is there any alternative to removing the pins, expoxying the holes, re-drilling and re-inserting?
   4a. Is it likely to solve the problem?

Thanks for your help and insight.

- Adam

------------------------------
Adam
------------------------------

Wim wrote: <[Tighten plate screws] As tight as you can make it. I used a brace and bit. If you don't have one, then use a square shanked screwdriver and use a crescent wrench to turn it. >

No! No! Especially not "as tight as you can make it."

This from Del Fandrich's article on plate screws in the February 2015 Journal:

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 12-11-2023 18:22
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Original Message:
Sent: 12/11/2023 6:07:00 PM
From: Adam Drobnis
Subject: RE: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Thanks Wim.  :) I will check that and see if it makes a difference.

More questions, of course! :)

1. What is the recommended torque value, if any besides tight?
2. How would tightening the plate have an effect on only a small group of notes, vs the entire piano?

Thanks. :)

------------------------------
Adam

Original Message:
Sent: 12-11-2023 13:58
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Original Message:
Sent: 12/11/2023 1:34:00 PM
From: Adam Drobnis
Subject: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Hello.

I recently tuned a Kawai Grand that had been reasonably maintained in a mostly controlled environment.  Tuning was uneventful, basic amount of friction (not measured), tuning seemed stable, all was well with the world. :)

A week later client stated D5 was out of tune.  I found two of the three strings (in the unison) had wandered.  Re-tuned, tested, test blow, all good.  Just this one note.

A few days later, D5 out again, E5 starting to wane a bit.  After a bit of research, it seems a potential tuning pin issue (hammered them down slightly - same problem) or possible bridge pin issue.  Removed tension from the string and I could ever so slightly move the bridge pins on those strings.  I added some thin CA glue and this time D5 and E5 stayed reasonable for 2-3 weeks, then started to go again.  The rest of the tuning is fine, just a small set of notes in the 5th octave.

Previous tuner apparently had a similar issue in the 6th and 7th octave.  I can see the same discoloration from CA glue on those bridge pins.  Unfortunately I can no longer ask him about it.

So, my questions:

1. Is this tuning technique, just for a couple notes?
2. Is it a bridge pin issue or something else?
3. Can I tap the bridge pins like I did for the tuning pins and would it make a difference?
4. Is there any alternative to removing the pins, expoxying the holes, re-drilling and re-inserting?
   4a. Is it likely to solve the problem?

Thanks for your help and insight.

- Adam

------------------------------
Adam
------------------------------

Good Morning Ed.  :)

Thanks for the alternative insight on tightening screws.  Any opinion on the bridge pins?  :)

Wim wrote: <[Tighten plate screws] As tight as you can make it. I used a brace and bit. If you don't have one, then use a square shanked screwdriver and use a crescent wrench to turn it. >

No! No! Especially not "as tight as you can make it."

This from Del Fandrich's article on plate screws in the February 2015 Journal:

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 12-11-2023 18:22
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Original Message:
Sent: 12/11/2023 6:07:00 PM
From: Adam Drobnis
Subject: RE: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Thanks Wim.  :) I will check that and see if it makes a difference.

More questions, of course! :)

1. What is the recommended torque value, if any besides tight?
2. How would tightening the plate have an effect on only a small group of notes, vs the entire piano?

Thanks. :)

------------------------------
Adam

Original Message:
Sent: 12-11-2023 13:58
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Original Message:
Sent: 12/11/2023 1:34:00 PM
From: Adam Drobnis
Subject: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Hello.

I recently tuned a Kawai Grand that had been reasonably maintained in a mostly controlled environment.  Tuning was uneventful, basic amount of friction (not measured), tuning seemed stable, all was well with the world. :)

A week later client stated D5 was out of tune.  I found two of the three strings (in the unison) had wandered.  Re-tuned, tested, test blow, all good.  Just this one note.

A few days later, D5 out again, E5 starting to wane a bit.  After a bit of research, it seems a potential tuning pin issue (hammered them down slightly - same problem) or possible bridge pin issue.  Removed tension from the string and I could ever so slightly move the bridge pins on those strings.  I added some thin CA glue and this time D5 and E5 stayed reasonable for 2-3 weeks, then started to go again.  The rest of the tuning is fine, just a small set of notes in the 5th octave.

Previous tuner apparently had a similar issue in the 6th and 7th octave.  I can see the same discoloration from CA glue on those bridge pins.  Unfortunately I can no longer ask him about it.

So, my questions:

1. Is this tuning technique, just for a couple notes?
2. Is it a bridge pin issue or something else?
3. Can I tap the bridge pins like I did for the tuning pins and would it make a difference?
4. Is there any alternative to removing the pins, expoxying the holes, re-drilling and re-inserting?
   4a. Is it likely to solve the problem?

Thanks for your help and insight.

- Adam

------------------------------
Adam
------------------------------

Adam-I believe all bridge pins move slightly when tension is added to the string, more obviously so as a piano ages. It is not necessarily a problem. This is just the first time you've seen it.

What I hear, in terms of direct observation, is that you tuned and a unison went out. This is nothing special. And this appears to be the first time you tuned this piano. So I am not certain that anything was wrong with the piano beyond a drifting unison.

Then, on your first callback, how much did you wiggle and yank on the pin/string? Or did you just quickly tune the unison with minimal movement?

Then the things you did on your second visit, releasing tension on the string and pounding the pin are good ways to introduce more instability in the system.

Given what I understand of the situation, I'd suggest (if the unison drifts again) that you pluck the back lengths, listening to the neighborhood pattern. If the back lengths of the string you loosened are lower than the neighboring pattern, you might gently tap the back length and retune, hoping to bring the back lengths up to pitch.

Then wait and observe. Thank the customer for their patience as you get to know their piano.

Good Morning Ed.  :)

Thanks for the alternative insight on tightening screws.  Any opinion on the bridge pins?  :)

Wim wrote: <[Tighten plate screws] As tight as you can make it. I used a brace and bit. If you don't have one, then use a square shanked screwdriver and use a crescent wrench to turn it. >

No! No! Especially not "as tight as you can make it."

This from Del Fandrich's article on plate screws in the February 2015 Journal:

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 12-11-2023 18:22
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Original Message:
Sent: 12/11/2023 6:07:00 PM
From: Adam Drobnis
Subject: RE: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Thanks Wim.  :) I will check that and see if it makes a difference.

More questions, of course! :)

1. What is the recommended torque value, if any besides tight?
2. How would tightening the plate have an effect on only a small group of notes, vs the entire piano?

Thanks. :)

------------------------------
Adam

Original Message:
Sent: 12-11-2023 13:58
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Original Message:
Sent: 12/11/2023 1:34:00 PM
From: Adam Drobnis
Subject: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Hello.

I recently tuned a Kawai Grand that had been reasonably maintained in a mostly controlled environment.  Tuning was uneventful, basic amount of friction (not measured), tuning seemed stable, all was well with the world. :)

A week later client stated D5 was out of tune.  I found two of the three strings (in the unison) had wandered.  Re-tuned, tested, test blow, all good.  Just this one note.

A few days later, D5 out again, E5 starting to wane a bit.  After a bit of research, it seems a potential tuning pin issue (hammered them down slightly - same problem) or possible bridge pin issue.  Removed tension from the string and I could ever so slightly move the bridge pins on those strings.  I added some thin CA glue and this time D5 and E5 stayed reasonable for 2-3 weeks, then started to go again.  The rest of the tuning is fine, just a small set of notes in the 5th octave.

Previous tuner apparently had a similar issue in the 6th and 7th octave.  I can see the same discoloration from CA glue on those bridge pins.  Unfortunately I can no longer ask him about it.

So, my questions:

1. Is this tuning technique, just for a couple notes?
2. Is it a bridge pin issue or something else?
3. Can I tap the bridge pins like I did for the tuning pins and would it make a difference?
4. Is there any alternative to removing the pins, expoxying the holes, re-drilling and re-inserting?
   4a. Is it likely to solve the problem?

Thanks for your help and insight.

- Adam

------------------------------
Adam
------------------------------

Thanks for your reply Ed and James.  :)  James - I think it is the angle of the video.  All bridge pins are the same height.

Ed - Yes, first time with this piano.  Here is the brief timeline:

2 weeks (I looked it up, I thought it was only 1 week mentioned above) after tuning, only D5 unison was out.  Brought all three D5 pins down maybe 10 cents then back up to pitch matching the octave with D4. Also added a couple drops of thin CA glue to the tuning pins.

A few days later, same problem, D5 unison out, E5 unison waning a bit. The rest, good.  Slight pounding of the D5 pins, just enough to move them down a bit, still plenty of space from the coil.

Did some research, found out about bridge pin possible issues, went back a few days later (D5 still unstable), removed tension and found I could move the bridge pins (see prior video).  Added thin CA glue to the bridge pins.

D5 held on for about a month now.  Could be lack of using it (it is a church rehearsal room piano), stable temps, etc.  And then, another call.  D5 unison out again.  Went back, tuned it and a couple surrounding notes (C#, D, D#, E) they were off juuuust a bit and added some more CA thin glue to the bridge pins.

D5 lasted about 2 days.

The rest of the piano is great, no problems, no complaints, happy client.  Just this one cluster...

Would love to figure out the mystery to the dissonant unison.  :)  I will check the back lengths next time I am there...I might just move in. :)

Thanks for everyone's help!

Adam-I believe all bridge pins move slightly when tension is added to the string, more obviously so as a piano ages. It is not necessarily a problem. This is just the first time you've seen it.

What I hear, in terms of direct observation, is that you tuned and a unison went out. This is nothing special. And this appears to be the first time you tuned this piano. So I am not certain that anything was wrong with the piano beyond a drifting unison.

Then, on your first callback, how much did you wiggle and yank on the pin/string? Or did you just quickly tune the unison with minimal movement?

Then the things you did on your second visit, releasing tension on the string and pounding the pin are good ways to introduce more instability in the system.

Given what I understand of the situation, I'd suggest (if the unison drifts again) that you pluck the back lengths, listening to the neighborhood pattern. If the back lengths of the string you loosened are lower than the neighboring pattern, you might gently tap the back length and retune, hoping to bring the back lengths up to pitch.

Then wait and observe. Thank the customer for their patience as you get to know their piano.

Good Morning Ed.  :)

Thanks for the alternative insight on tightening screws.  Any opinion on the bridge pins?  :)

Wim wrote: <[Tighten plate screws] As tight as you can make it. I used a brace and bit. If you don't have one, then use a square shanked screwdriver and use a crescent wrench to turn it. >

No! No! Especially not "as tight as you can make it."

This from Del Fandrich's article on plate screws in the February 2015 Journal:

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 12-11-2023 18:22
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Original Message:
Sent: 12/11/2023 6:07:00 PM
From: Adam Drobnis
Subject: RE: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Thanks Wim.  :) I will check that and see if it makes a difference.

More questions, of course! :)

1. What is the recommended torque value, if any besides tight?
2. How would tightening the plate have an effect on only a small group of notes, vs the entire piano?

Thanks. :)

------------------------------
Adam

Original Message:
Sent: 12-11-2023 13:58
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Original Message:
Sent: 12/11/2023 1:34:00 PM
From: Adam Drobnis
Subject: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Hello.

I recently tuned a Kawai Grand that had been reasonably maintained in a mostly controlled environment.  Tuning was uneventful, basic amount of friction (not measured), tuning seemed stable, all was well with the world. :)

A week later client stated D5 was out of tune.  I found two of the three strings (in the unison) had wandered.  Re-tuned, tested, test blow, all good.  Just this one note.

A few days later, D5 out again, E5 starting to wane a bit.  After a bit of research, it seems a potential tuning pin issue (hammered them down slightly - same problem) or possible bridge pin issue.  Removed tension from the string and I could ever so slightly move the bridge pins on those strings.  I added some thin CA glue and this time D5 and E5 stayed reasonable for 2-3 weeks, then started to go again.  The rest of the tuning is fine, just a small set of notes in the 5th octave.

Previous tuner apparently had a similar issue in the 6th and 7th octave.  I can see the same discoloration from CA glue on those bridge pins.  Unfortunately I can no longer ask him about it.

So, my questions:

1. Is this tuning technique, just for a couple notes?
2. Is it a bridge pin issue or something else?
3. Can I tap the bridge pins like I did for the tuning pins and would it make a difference?
4. Is there any alternative to removing the pins, expoxying the holes, re-drilling and re-inserting?
   4a. Is it likely to solve the problem?

Thanks for your help and insight.

- Adam

------------------------------
Adam
------------------------------

Thanks for your reply Ed and James.  :)  James - I think it is the angle of the video.  All bridge pins are the same height.

Ed - Yes, first time with this piano.  Here is the brief timeline:

2 weeks (I looked it up, I thought it was only 1 week mentioned above) after tuning, only D5 unison was out.  Brought all three D5 pins down maybe 10 cents then back up to pitch matching the octave with D4. Also added a couple drops of thin CA glue to the tuning pins.

A few days later, same problem, D5 unison out, E5 unison waning a bit. The rest, good.  Slight pounding of the D5 pins, just enough to move them down a bit, still plenty of space from the coil.

Did some research, found out about bridge pin possible issues, went back a few days later (D5 still unstable), removed tension and found I could move the bridge pins (see prior video).  Added thin CA glue to the bridge pins.

D5 held on for about a month now.  Could be lack of using it (it is a church rehearsal room piano), stable temps, etc.  And then, another call.  D5 unison out again.  Went back, tuned it and a couple surrounding notes (C#, D, D#, E) they were off juuuust a bit and added some more CA thin glue to the bridge pins.

D5 lasted about 2 days.

The rest of the piano is great, no problems, no complaints, happy client.  Just this one cluster...

Would love to figure out the mystery to the dissonant unison.  :)  I will check the back lengths next time I am there...I might just move in. :)

Thanks for everyone's help!

Adam-I believe all bridge pins move slightly when tension is added to the string, more obviously so as a piano ages. It is not necessarily a problem. This is just the first time you've seen it.

What I hear, in terms of direct observation, is that you tuned and a unison went out. This is nothing special. And this appears to be the first time you tuned this piano. So I am not certain that anything was wrong with the piano beyond a drifting unison.

Then, on your first callback, how much did you wiggle and yank on the pin/string? Or did you just quickly tune the unison with minimal movement?

Then the things you did on your second visit, releasing tension on the string and pounding the pin are good ways to introduce more instability in the system.

Given what I understand of the situation, I'd suggest (if the unison drifts again) that you pluck the back lengths, listening to the neighborhood pattern. If the back lengths of the string you loosened are lower than the neighboring pattern, you might gently tap the back length and retune, hoping to bring the back lengths up to pitch.

Then wait and observe. Thank the customer for their patience as you get to know their piano.

Good Morning Ed.  :)

Thanks for the alternative insight on tightening screws.  Any opinion on the bridge pins?  :)

Wim wrote: <[Tighten plate screws] As tight as you can make it. I used a brace and bit. If you don't have one, then use a square shanked screwdriver and use a crescent wrench to turn it. >

No! No! Especially not "as tight as you can make it."

This from Del Fandrich's article on plate screws in the February 2015 Journal:

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 12-11-2023 18:22
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Original Message:
Sent: 12/11/2023 6:07:00 PM
From: Adam Drobnis
Subject: RE: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Thanks Wim.  :) I will check that and see if it makes a difference.

More questions, of course! :)

1. What is the recommended torque value, if any besides tight?
2. How would tightening the plate have an effect on only a small group of notes, vs the entire piano?

Thanks. :)

------------------------------
Adam

Original Message:
Sent: 12-11-2023 13:58
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Original Message:
Sent: 12/11/2023 1:34:00 PM
From: Adam Drobnis
Subject: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Hello.

I recently tuned a Kawai Grand that had been reasonably maintained in a mostly controlled environment.  Tuning was uneventful, basic amount of friction (not measured), tuning seemed stable, all was well with the world. :)

A week later client stated D5 was out of tune.  I found two of the three strings (in the unison) had wandered.  Re-tuned, tested, test blow, all good.  Just this one note.

A few days later, D5 out again, E5 starting to wane a bit.  After a bit of research, it seems a potential tuning pin issue (hammered them down slightly - same problem) or possible bridge pin issue.  Removed tension from the string and I could ever so slightly move the bridge pins on those strings.  I added some thin CA glue and this time D5 and E5 stayed reasonable for 2-3 weeks, then started to go again.  The rest of the tuning is fine, just a small set of notes in the 5th octave.

Previous tuner apparently had a similar issue in the 6th and 7th octave.  I can see the same discoloration from CA glue on those bridge pins.  Unfortunately I can no longer ask him about it.

So, my questions:

1. Is this tuning technique, just for a couple notes?
2. Is it a bridge pin issue or something else?
3. Can I tap the bridge pins like I did for the tuning pins and would it make a difference?
4. Is there any alternative to removing the pins, expoxying the holes, re-drilling and re-inserting?
   4a. Is it likely to solve the problem?

Thanks for your help and insight.

- Adam

------------------------------
Adam
------------------------------

Adam-These are the first notes on the capo section, yes? These notes are often more sensitive to humidity change. Mike Ello mentioned a rare possibility, easy to observe.

I maintained an old choral practice piano which had midrange problems that surprised me despite my best efforts. 

One day I passed by during a rehearsal and heard the director at work: "ALTOS!!! F SHARP!!! F SHARP!!! [BANG!!! BANG!!!] F SHARP!!!"

Thanks for your reply Ed and James.  :)  James - I think it is the angle of the video.  All bridge pins are the same height.

Ed - Yes, first time with this piano.  Here is the brief timeline:

2 weeks (I looked it up, I thought it was only 1 week mentioned above) after tuning, only D5 unison was out.  Brought all three D5 pins down maybe 10 cents then back up to pitch matching the octave with D4. Also added a couple drops of thin CA glue to the tuning pins.

A few days later, same problem, D5 unison out, E5 unison waning a bit. The rest, good.  Slight pounding of the D5 pins, just enough to move them down a bit, still plenty of space from the coil.

Did some research, found out about bridge pin possible issues, went back a few days later (D5 still unstable), removed tension and found I could move the bridge pins (see prior video).  Added thin CA glue to the bridge pins.

D5 held on for about a month now.  Could be lack of using it (it is a church rehearsal room piano), stable temps, etc.  And then, another call.  D5 unison out again.  Went back, tuned it and a couple surrounding notes (C#, D, D#, E) they were off juuuust a bit and added some more CA thin glue to the bridge pins.

D5 lasted about 2 days.

The rest of the piano is great, no problems, no complaints, happy client.  Just this one cluster...

Would love to figure out the mystery to the dissonant unison.  :)  I will check the back lengths next time I am there...I might just move in. :)

Thanks for everyone's help!

Adam-I believe all bridge pins move slightly when tension is added to the string, more obviously so as a piano ages. It is not necessarily a problem. This is just the first time you've seen it.

What I hear, in terms of direct observation, is that you tuned and a unison went out. This is nothing special. And this appears to be the first time you tuned this piano. So I am not certain that anything was wrong with the piano beyond a drifting unison.

Then, on your first callback, how much did you wiggle and yank on the pin/string? Or did you just quickly tune the unison with minimal movement?

Then the things you did on your second visit, releasing tension on the string and pounding the pin are good ways to introduce more instability in the system.

Given what I understand of the situation, I'd suggest (if the unison drifts again) that you pluck the back lengths, listening to the neighborhood pattern. If the back lengths of the string you loosened are lower than the neighboring pattern, you might gently tap the back length and retune, hoping to bring the back lengths up to pitch.

Then wait and observe. Thank the customer for their patience as you get to know their piano.

Good Morning Ed.  :)

Thanks for the alternative insight on tightening screws.  Any opinion on the bridge pins?  :)

Wim wrote: <[Tighten plate screws] As tight as you can make it. I used a brace and bit. If you don't have one, then use a square shanked screwdriver and use a crescent wrench to turn it. >

No! No! Especially not "as tight as you can make it."

This from Del Fandrich's article on plate screws in the February 2015 Journal:

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 12-11-2023 18:22
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Original Message:
Sent: 12/11/2023 6:07:00 PM
From: Adam Drobnis
Subject: RE: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Thanks Wim.  :) I will check that and see if it makes a difference.

More questions, of course! :)

1. What is the recommended torque value, if any besides tight?
2. How would tightening the plate have an effect on only a small group of notes, vs the entire piano?

Thanks. :)

------------------------------
Adam

Original Message:
Sent: 12-11-2023 13:58
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Original Message:
Sent: 12/11/2023 1:34:00 PM
From: Adam Drobnis
Subject: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Hello.

I recently tuned a Kawai Grand that had been reasonably maintained in a mostly controlled environment.  Tuning was uneventful, basic amount of friction (not measured), tuning seemed stable, all was well with the world. :)

A week later client stated D5 was out of tune.  I found two of the three strings (in the unison) had wandered.  Re-tuned, tested, test blow, all good.  Just this one note.

A few days later, D5 out again, E5 starting to wane a bit.  After a bit of research, it seems a potential tuning pin issue (hammered them down slightly - same problem) or possible bridge pin issue.  Removed tension from the string and I could ever so slightly move the bridge pins on those strings.  I added some thin CA glue and this time D5 and E5 stayed reasonable for 2-3 weeks, then started to go again.  The rest of the tuning is fine, just a small set of notes in the 5th octave.

Previous tuner apparently had a similar issue in the 6th and 7th octave.  I can see the same discoloration from CA glue on those bridge pins.  Unfortunately I can no longer ask him about it.

So, my questions:

1. Is this tuning technique, just for a couple notes?
2. Is it a bridge pin issue or something else?
3. Can I tap the bridge pins like I did for the tuning pins and would it make a difference?
4. Is there any alternative to removing the pins, expoxying the holes, re-drilling and re-inserting?
   4a. Is it likely to solve the problem?

Thanks for your help and insight.

- Adam

------------------------------
Adam
------------------------------

Wim wrote: <[Tighten plate screws] As tight as you can make it. I used a brace and bit. If you don't have one, then use a square shanked screwdriver and use a crescent wrench to turn it. >

No! No! Especially not "as tight as you can make it."

This from Del Fandrich's article on plate screws in the February 2015 Journal:

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-11-2023 18:22
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Original Message:
Sent: 12/11/2023 6:07:00 PM
From: Adam Drobnis
Subject: RE: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Thanks Wim.  :) I will check that and see if it makes a difference.

More questions, of course! :)

1. What is the recommended torque value, if any besides tight?
2. How would tightening the plate have an effect on only a small group of notes, vs the entire piano?

Thanks. :)

------------------------------
Adam

Original Message:
Sent: 12-11-2023 13:58
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Original Message:
Sent: 12/11/2023 1:34:00 PM
From: Adam Drobnis
Subject: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Hello.

I recently tuned a Kawai Grand that had been reasonably maintained in a mostly controlled environment.  Tuning was uneventful, basic amount of friction (not measured), tuning seemed stable, all was well with the world. :)

A week later client stated D5 was out of tune.  I found two of the three strings (in the unison) had wandered.  Re-tuned, tested, test blow, all good.  Just this one note.

A few days later, D5 out again, E5 starting to wane a bit.  After a bit of research, it seems a potential tuning pin issue (hammered them down slightly - same problem) or possible bridge pin issue.  Removed tension from the string and I could ever so slightly move the bridge pins on those strings.  I added some thin CA glue and this time D5 and E5 stayed reasonable for 2-3 weeks, then started to go again.  The rest of the tuning is fine, just a small set of notes in the 5th octave.

Previous tuner apparently had a similar issue in the 6th and 7th octave.  I can see the same discoloration from CA glue on those bridge pins.  Unfortunately I can no longer ask him about it.

So, my questions:

1. Is this tuning technique, just for a couple notes?
2. Is it a bridge pin issue or something else?
3. Can I tap the bridge pins like I did for the tuning pins and would it make a difference?
4. Is there any alternative to removing the pins, expoxying the holes, re-drilling and re-inserting?
   4a. Is it likely to solve the problem?

Thanks for your help and insight.

- Adam

------------------------------
Adam
------------------------------

Wim wrote: <[Tighten plate screws] As tight as you can make it. I used a brace and bit. If you don't have one, then use a square shanked screwdriver and use a crescent wrench to turn it. >

No! No! Especially not "as tight as you can make it."

This from Del Fandrich's article on plate screws in the February 2015 Journal:

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 12-11-2023 18:22
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Original Message:
Sent: 12/11/2023 6:07:00 PM
From: Adam Drobnis
Subject: RE: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Thanks Wim.  :) I will check that and see if it makes a difference.

More questions, of course! :)

1. What is the recommended torque value, if any besides tight?
2. How would tightening the plate have an effect on only a small group of notes, vs the entire piano?

Thanks. :)

------------------------------
Adam

Original Message:
Sent: 12-11-2023 13:58
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Original Message:
Sent: 12/11/2023 1:34:00 PM
From: Adam Drobnis
Subject: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Hello.

I recently tuned a Kawai Grand that had been reasonably maintained in a mostly controlled environment.  Tuning was uneventful, basic amount of friction (not measured), tuning seemed stable, all was well with the world. :)

A week later client stated D5 was out of tune.  I found two of the three strings (in the unison) had wandered.  Re-tuned, tested, test blow, all good.  Just this one note.

A few days later, D5 out again, E5 starting to wane a bit.  After a bit of research, it seems a potential tuning pin issue (hammered them down slightly - same problem) or possible bridge pin issue.  Removed tension from the string and I could ever so slightly move the bridge pins on those strings.  I added some thin CA glue and this time D5 and E5 stayed reasonable for 2-3 weeks, then started to go again.  The rest of the tuning is fine, just a small set of notes in the 5th octave.

Previous tuner apparently had a similar issue in the 6th and 7th octave.  I can see the same discoloration from CA glue on those bridge pins.  Unfortunately I can no longer ask him about it.

So, my questions:

1. Is this tuning technique, just for a couple notes?
2. Is it a bridge pin issue or something else?
3. Can I tap the bridge pins like I did for the tuning pins and would it make a difference?
4. Is there any alternative to removing the pins, expoxying the holes, re-drilling and re-inserting?
   4a. Is it likely to solve the problem?

Thanks for your help and insight.

- Adam

------------------------------
Adam
------------------------------

The bridge pins look like they are driven into the bridge too deep or that could be the angle of the photo. The bridge pins should not be moving around in the bridge and the strings should have a bit of a bend around the pin. There is a good video on the Supply 88 web site showing a tool they sell and how to use it. The best fast fix is to loosen the strings and apply CA thin glue around the bridge pins but the better fix may be removing the bridge pin and using epoxy. Perhaps the bridge cap should be replaced but thats alot of work. It would be good to have some pictures straight on to see where the bridge pins sit on the bridge and how far the pins are. I think this is the cause of instability.. Have you checked the tuning pin torque for the notes ?

Wim wrote: <[Tighten plate screws] As tight as you can make it. I used a brace and bit. If you don't have one, then use a square shanked screwdriver and use a crescent wrench to turn it. >

No! No! Especially not "as tight as you can make it."

This from Del Fandrich's article on plate screws in the February 2015 Journal:

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 12-11-2023 18:22
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Original Message:
Sent: 12/11/2023 6:07:00 PM
From: Adam Drobnis
Subject: RE: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Thanks Wim.  :) I will check that and see if it makes a difference.

More questions, of course! :)

1. What is the recommended torque value, if any besides tight?
2. How would tightening the plate have an effect on only a small group of notes, vs the entire piano?

Thanks. :)

------------------------------
Adam

Original Message:
Sent: 12-11-2023 13:58
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Original Message:
Sent: 12/11/2023 1:34:00 PM
From: Adam Drobnis
Subject: Unstable unison one note, then two - D5, E5 - Kawai Grand

Hello.

I recently tuned a Kawai Grand that had been reasonably maintained in a mostly controlled environment.  Tuning was uneventful, basic amount of friction (not measured), tuning seemed stable, all was well with the world. :)

A week later client stated D5 was out of tune.  I found two of the three strings (in the unison) had wandered.  Re-tuned, tested, test blow, all good.  Just this one note.

A few days later, D5 out again, E5 starting to wane a bit.  After a bit of research, it seems a potential tuning pin issue (hammered them down slightly - same problem) or possible bridge pin issue.  Removed tension from the string and I could ever so slightly move the bridge pins on those strings.  I added some thin CA glue and this time D5 and E5 stayed reasonable for 2-3 weeks, then started to go again.  The rest of the tuning is fine, just a small set of notes in the 5th octave.

Previous tuner apparently had a similar issue in the 6th and 7th octave.  I can see the same discoloration from CA glue on those bridge pins.  Unfortunately I can no longer ask him about it.

So, my questions:

1. Is this tuning technique, just for a couple notes?
2. Is it a bridge pin issue or something else?
3. Can I tap the bridge pins like I did for the tuning pins and would it make a difference?
4. Is there any alternative to removing the pins, expoxying the holes, re-drilling and re-inserting?
   4a. Is it likely to solve the problem?

Thanks for your help and insight.

- Adam

------------------------------
Adam
------------------------------

Hello.

I recently tuned a Kawai Grand that had been reasonably maintained in a mostly controlled environment.  Tuning was uneventful, basic amount of friction (not measured), tuning seemed stable, all was well with the world. :)

A week later client stated D5 was out of tune.  I found two of the three strings (in the unison) had wandered.  Re-tuned, tested, test blow, all good.  Just this one note.

A few days later, D5 out again, E5 starting to wane a bit.  After a bit of research, it seems a potential tuning pin issue (hammered them down slightly - same problem) or possible bridge pin issue.  Removed tension from the string and I could ever so slightly move the bridge pins on those strings.  I added some thin CA glue and this time D5 and E5 stayed reasonable for 2-3 weeks, then started to go again.  The rest of the tuning is fine, just a small set of notes in the 5th octave.

Previous tuner apparently had a similar issue in the 6th and 7th octave.  I can see the same discoloration from CA glue on those bridge pins.  Unfortunately I can no longer ask him about it.

So, my questions:

1. Is this tuning technique, just for a couple notes?
2. Is it a bridge pin issue or something else?
3. Can I tap the bridge pins like I did for the tuning pins and would it make a difference?
4. Is there any alternative to removing the pins, expoxying the holes, re-drilling and re-inserting?
   4a. Is it likely to solve the problem?

Thanks for your help and insight.

- Adam

Hello.

I recently tuned a Kawai Grand that had been reasonably maintained in a mostly controlled environment.  Tuning was uneventful, basic amount of friction (not measured), tuning seemed stable, all was well with the world. :)

A week later client stated D5 was out of tune.  I found two of the three strings (in the unison) had wandered.  Re-tuned, tested, test blow, all good.  Just this one note.

A few days later, D5 out again, E5 starting to wane a bit.  After a bit of research, it seems a potential tuning pin issue (hammered them down slightly - same problem) or possible bridge pin issue.  Removed tension from the string and I could ever so slightly move the bridge pins on those strings.  I added some thin CA glue and this time D5 and E5 stayed reasonable for 2-3 weeks, then started to go again.  The rest of the tuning is fine, just a small set of notes in the 5th octave.

Previous tuner apparently had a similar issue in the 6th and 7th octave.  I can see the same discoloration from CA glue on those bridge pins.  Unfortunately I can no longer ask him about it.

So, my questions:

1. Is this tuning technique, just for a couple notes?
2. Is it a bridge pin issue or something else?
3. Can I tap the bridge pins like I did for the tuning pins and would it make a difference?
4. Is there any alternative to removing the pins, expoxying the holes, re-drilling and re-inserting?
   4a. Is it likely to solve the problem?

Thanks for your help and insight.

- Adam

Hi Adam,

My thoughts:

It could be your tuning technique. You probably have a very stable technique, as evidenced by the rest of the piano. However, there's always a possibility that something was done differently with these notes on the piano is being built. For example, the becket could be aligned differently here than on the rest of the pins, or the pins may have been drilled a slightly different angle. Either could cause the need for you to vary your technique on these specific pins. However, I don't think this is the case, as they hold tune through your test blows.

It could also be the bridge pins, as others have said. Or the hitch pin loop, as Mike pointed out. But more than that, I'm inclined to think it's the environment. Even the best controlled climates in churches are notoriously bad for the piano. As Ed said, those first notes on the capo tend to adsorb the environmental shifts more than other notes. Try everything you can think of, of course, but I'm willing to bet that, once the piano is moved to a more stable environment, you'll find the problem greatly minimized, if not gone entirely.

Hello.

I recently tuned a Kawai Grand that had been reasonably maintained in a mostly controlled environment.  Tuning was uneventful, basic amount of friction (not measured), tuning seemed stable, all was well with the world. :)

A week later client stated D5 was out of tune.  I found two of the three strings (in the unison) had wandered.  Re-tuned, tested, test blow, all good.  Just this one note.

A few days later, D5 out again, E5 starting to wane a bit.  After a bit of research, it seems a potential tuning pin issue (hammered them down slightly - same problem) or possible bridge pin issue.  Removed tension from the string and I could ever so slightly move the bridge pins on those strings.  I added some thin CA glue and this time D5 and E5 stayed reasonable for 2-3 weeks, then started to go again.  The rest of the tuning is fine, just a small set of notes in the 5th octave.

Previous tuner apparently had a similar issue in the 6th and 7th octave.  I can see the same discoloration from CA glue on those bridge pins.  Unfortunately I can no longer ask him about it.

So, my questions:

1. Is this tuning technique, just for a couple notes?
2. Is it a bridge pin issue or something else?
3. Can I tap the bridge pins like I did for the tuning pins and would it make a difference?
4. Is there any alternative to removing the pins, expoxying the holes, re-drilling and re-inserting?
   4a. Is it likely to solve the problem?

Thanks for your help and insight.

- Adam

Perhaps I missed it but I didn't see the model or age of the piano. I've found that the Kawai grands with the brown understring felt often have rendering problems. I always apply some lubricant to the felts and it shortens the tuning time measurably. Might not solve the problem but would help eliminate the possibility.

Hi Adam,

My thoughts:

It could be your tuning technique. You probably have a very stable technique, as evidenced by the rest of the piano. However, there's always a possibility that something was done differently with these notes on the piano is being built. For example, the becket could be aligned differently here than on the rest of the pins, or the pins may have been drilled a slightly different angle. Either could cause the need for you to vary your technique on these specific pins. However, I don't think this is the case, as they hold tune through your test blows.

It could also be the bridge pins, as others have said. Or the hitch pin loop, as Mike pointed out. But more than that, I'm inclined to think it's the environment. Even the best controlled climates in churches are notoriously bad for the piano. As Ed said, those first notes on the capo tend to adsorb the environmental shifts more than other notes. Try everything you can think of, of course, but I'm willing to bet that, once the piano is moved to a more stable environment, you'll find the problem greatly minimized, if not gone entirely.

Hello.

I recently tuned a Kawai Grand that had been reasonably maintained in a mostly controlled environment.  Tuning was uneventful, basic amount of friction (not measured), tuning seemed stable, all was well with the world. :)

A week later client stated D5 was out of tune.  I found two of the three strings (in the unison) had wandered.  Re-tuned, tested, test blow, all good.  Just this one note.

A few days later, D5 out again, E5 starting to wane a bit.  After a bit of research, it seems a potential tuning pin issue (hammered them down slightly - same problem) or possible bridge pin issue.  Removed tension from the string and I could ever so slightly move the bridge pins on those strings.  I added some thin CA glue and this time D5 and E5 stayed reasonable for 2-3 weeks, then started to go again.  The rest of the tuning is fine, just a small set of notes in the 5th octave.

Previous tuner apparently had a similar issue in the 6th and 7th octave.  I can see the same discoloration from CA glue on those bridge pins.  Unfortunately I can no longer ask him about it.

So, my questions:

1. Is this tuning technique, just for a couple notes?
2. Is it a bridge pin issue or something else?
3. Can I tap the bridge pins like I did for the tuning pins and would it make a difference?
4. Is there any alternative to removing the pins, expoxying the holes, re-drilling and re-inserting?
   4a. Is it likely to solve the problem?

Thanks for your help and insight.

- Adam

Good Morning.  Thanks for all the suggestions.

David - Becket slipping?  That seems odd to me, how can the becket slip when there are three coils below it?  Tuning technique - possible, but to me seems unlikely since it is only D5, E5 that are having this problem.

The bridge pins do move as tension is applied, the hole appears slightly wider than the pin, but I cannot say they move after tension is in force and the string is struck.

Benjamin - haven't checked the hitch pin yet, but I did get another "vote" to check and see if the hitch pin is actually loose (outside the forum) like the bridge pins.  I will have to check that too.

As for the environment, it does seem odd to only affect a couple notes.  Unfortunately, the piano won't be leaving the choir rehearsal room to test that theory.  :)

Steven - I don't currently have the model or age, but it is a Kawai Grand that is roughly 40 years old I believe, in good shape, doesn't move, played relatively often - possibly heavy handed (second hand rumor :) ), but has blue underfelt.  I am not feeling any major tension resistance on those particular notes, but that could be something.  What lubricant do you normally use?

Thanks. :)

Perhaps I missed it but I didn't see the model or age of the piano. I've found that the Kawai grands with the brown understring felt often have rendering problems. I always apply some lubricant to the felts and it shortens the tuning time measurably. Might not solve the problem but would help eliminate the possibility.

Hi Adam,

My thoughts:

It could be your tuning technique. You probably have a very stable technique, as evidenced by the rest of the piano. However, there's always a possibility that something was done differently with these notes on the piano is being built. For example, the becket could be aligned differently here than on the rest of the pins, or the pins may have been drilled a slightly different angle. Either could cause the need for you to vary your technique on these specific pins. However, I don't think this is the case, as they hold tune through your test blows.

It could also be the bridge pins, as others have said. Or the hitch pin loop, as Mike pointed out. But more than that, I'm inclined to think it's the environment. Even the best controlled climates in churches are notoriously bad for the piano. As Ed said, those first notes on the capo tend to adsorb the environmental shifts more than other notes. Try everything you can think of, of course, but I'm willing to bet that, once the piano is moved to a more stable environment, you'll find the problem greatly minimized, if not gone entirely.

Hello.

I recently tuned a Kawai Grand that had been reasonably maintained in a mostly controlled environment.  Tuning was uneventful, basic amount of friction (not measured), tuning seemed stable, all was well with the world. :)

A week later client stated D5 was out of tune.  I found two of the three strings (in the unison) had wandered.  Re-tuned, tested, test blow, all good.  Just this one note.

A few days later, D5 out again, E5 starting to wane a bit.  After a bit of research, it seems a potential tuning pin issue (hammered them down slightly - same problem) or possible bridge pin issue.  Removed tension from the string and I could ever so slightly move the bridge pins on those strings.  I added some thin CA glue and this time D5 and E5 stayed reasonable for 2-3 weeks, then started to go again.  The rest of the tuning is fine, just a small set of notes in the 5th octave.

Previous tuner apparently had a similar issue in the 6th and 7th octave.  I can see the same discoloration from CA glue on those bridge pins.  Unfortunately I can no longer ask him about it.

So, my questions:

1. Is this tuning technique, just for a couple notes?
2. Is it a bridge pin issue or something else?
3. Can I tap the bridge pins like I did for the tuning pins and would it make a difference?
4. Is there any alternative to removing the pins, expoxying the holes, re-drilling and re-inserting?
   4a. Is it likely to solve the problem?

Thanks for your help and insight.

- Adam

I'm talking about the felt underneath the strings between the tuning pins and next bearing point. I use ProTec, I know others who use CBL.

You might check the elevation of the string coils above the plate, perhaps they were tapped down at some point.

Sometimes these problems are really vexing.

Good Morning.  Thanks for all the suggestions.

David - Becket slipping?  That seems odd to me, how can the becket slip when there are three coils below it?  Tuning technique - possible, but to me seems unlikely since it is only D5, E5 that are having this problem.

The bridge pins do move as tension is applied, the hole appears slightly wider than the pin, but I cannot say they move after tension is in force and the string is struck.

Benjamin - haven't checked the hitch pin yet, but I did get another "vote" to check and see if the hitch pin is actually loose (outside the forum) like the bridge pins.  I will have to check that too.

As for the environment, it does seem odd to only affect a couple notes.  Unfortunately, the piano won't be leaving the choir rehearsal room to test that theory.  :)

Steven - I don't currently have the model or age, but it is a Kawai Grand that is roughly 40 years old I believe, in good shape, doesn't move, played relatively often - possibly heavy handed (second hand rumor :) ), but has blue underfelt.  I am not feeling any major tension resistance on those particular notes, but that could be something.  What lubricant do you normally use?

Thanks. :)

Perhaps I missed it but I didn't see the model or age of the piano. I've found that the Kawai grands with the brown understring felt often have rendering problems. I always apply some lubricant to the felts and it shortens the tuning time measurably. Might not solve the problem but would help eliminate the possibility.

Hi Adam,

My thoughts:

It could be your tuning technique. You probably have a very stable technique, as evidenced by the rest of the piano. However, there's always a possibility that something was done differently with these notes on the piano is being built. For example, the becket could be aligned differently here than on the rest of the pins, or the pins may have been drilled a slightly different angle. Either could cause the need for you to vary your technique on these specific pins. However, I don't think this is the case, as they hold tune through your test blows.

It could also be the bridge pins, as others have said. Or the hitch pin loop, as Mike pointed out. But more than that, I'm inclined to think it's the environment. Even the best controlled climates in churches are notoriously bad for the piano. As Ed said, those first notes on the capo tend to adsorb the environmental shifts more than other notes. Try everything you can think of, of course, but I'm willing to bet that, once the piano is moved to a more stable environment, you'll find the problem greatly minimized, if not gone entirely.

Hello.

I recently tuned a Kawai Grand that had been reasonably maintained in a mostly controlled environment.  Tuning was uneventful, basic amount of friction (not measured), tuning seemed stable, all was well with the world. :)

A week later client stated D5 was out of tune.  I found two of the three strings (in the unison) had wandered.  Re-tuned, tested, test blow, all good.  Just this one note.

A few days later, D5 out again, E5 starting to wane a bit.  After a bit of research, it seems a potential tuning pin issue (hammered them down slightly - same problem) or possible bridge pin issue.  Removed tension from the string and I could ever so slightly move the bridge pins on those strings.  I added some thin CA glue and this time D5 and E5 stayed reasonable for 2-3 weeks, then started to go again.  The rest of the tuning is fine, just a small set of notes in the 5th octave.

Previous tuner apparently had a similar issue in the 6th and 7th octave.  I can see the same discoloration from CA glue on those bridge pins.  Unfortunately I can no longer ask him about it.

So, my questions:

1. Is this tuning technique, just for a couple notes?
2. Is it a bridge pin issue or something else?
3. Can I tap the bridge pins like I did for the tuning pins and would it make a difference?
4. Is there any alternative to removing the pins, expoxying the holes, re-drilling and re-inserting?
   4a. Is it likely to solve the problem?

Thanks for your help and insight.

- Adam

I've used McLube 444 with good success. No negative side effects so far. A few days after the initial treatment there was a marvelous difference.

Of course, that was across an entire piano that had rendering issues that made it next to impossible to tune. I'm not sure it would necessarily work on the piano in question, as that piano is already able to be tuned, it just won't hold. 

I'm talking about the felt underneath the strings between the tuning pins and next bearing point. I use ProTec, I know others who use CBL.

You might check the elevation of the string coils above the plate, perhaps they were tapped down at some point.

Sometimes these problems are really vexing.

Good Morning.  Thanks for all the suggestions.

David - Becket slipping?  That seems odd to me, how can the becket slip when there are three coils below it?  Tuning technique - possible, but to me seems unlikely since it is only D5, E5 that are having this problem.

The bridge pins do move as tension is applied, the hole appears slightly wider than the pin, but I cannot say they move after tension is in force and the string is struck.

Benjamin - haven't checked the hitch pin yet, but I did get another "vote" to check and see if the hitch pin is actually loose (outside the forum) like the bridge pins.  I will have to check that too.

As for the environment, it does seem odd to only affect a couple notes.  Unfortunately, the piano won't be leaving the choir rehearsal room to test that theory.  :)

Steven - I don't currently have the model or age, but it is a Kawai Grand that is roughly 40 years old I believe, in good shape, doesn't move, played relatively often - possibly heavy handed (second hand rumor :) ), but has blue underfelt.  I am not feeling any major tension resistance on those particular notes, but that could be something.  What lubricant do you normally use?

Thanks. :)

Perhaps I missed it but I didn't see the model or age of the piano. I've found that the Kawai grands with the brown understring felt often have rendering problems. I always apply some lubricant to the felts and it shortens the tuning time measurably. Might not solve the problem but would help eliminate the possibility.

Hi Adam,

My thoughts:

It could be your tuning technique. You probably have a very stable technique, as evidenced by the rest of the piano. However, there's always a possibility that something was done differently with these notes on the piano is being built. For example, the becket could be aligned differently here than on the rest of the pins, or the pins may have been drilled a slightly different angle. Either could cause the need for you to vary your technique on these specific pins. However, I don't think this is the case, as they hold tune through your test blows.

It could also be the bridge pins, as others have said. Or the hitch pin loop, as Mike pointed out. But more than that, I'm inclined to think it's the environment. Even the best controlled climates in churches are notoriously bad for the piano. As Ed said, those first notes on the capo tend to adsorb the environmental shifts more than other notes. Try everything you can think of, of course, but I'm willing to bet that, once the piano is moved to a more stable environment, you'll find the problem greatly minimized, if not gone entirely.

Hello.

I recently tuned a Kawai Grand that had been reasonably maintained in a mostly controlled environment.  Tuning was uneventful, basic amount of friction (not measured), tuning seemed stable, all was well with the world. :)

A week later client stated D5 was out of tune.  I found two of the three strings (in the unison) had wandered.  Re-tuned, tested, test blow, all good.  Just this one note.

A few days later, D5 out again, E5 starting to wane a bit.  After a bit of research, it seems a potential tuning pin issue (hammered them down slightly - same problem) or possible bridge pin issue.  Removed tension from the string and I could ever so slightly move the bridge pins on those strings.  I added some thin CA glue and this time D5 and E5 stayed reasonable for 2-3 weeks, then started to go again.  The rest of the tuning is fine, just a small set of notes in the 5th octave.

Previous tuner apparently had a similar issue in the 6th and 7th octave.  I can see the same discoloration from CA glue on those bridge pins.  Unfortunately I can no longer ask him about it.

So, my questions:

1. Is this tuning technique, just for a couple notes?
2. Is it a bridge pin issue or something else?
3. Can I tap the bridge pins like I did for the tuning pins and would it make a difference?
4. Is there any alternative to removing the pins, expoxying the holes, re-drilling and re-inserting?
   4a. Is it likely to solve the problem?

Thanks for your help and insight.

- Adam

Good Morning.  Thanks for all the suggestions.

David - Becket slipping?  That seems odd to me, how can the becket slip when there are three coils below it?  Tuning technique - possible, but to me seems unlikely since it is only D5, E5 that are having this problem.

The bridge pins do move as tension is applied, the hole appears slightly wider than the pin, but I cannot say they move after tension is in force and the string is struck.

Benjamin - haven't checked the hitch pin yet, but I did get another "vote" to check and see if the hitch pin is actually loose (outside the forum) like the bridge pins.  I will have to check that too.

As for the environment, it does seem odd to only affect a couple notes.  Unfortunately, the piano won't be leaving the choir rehearsal room to test that theory.  :)

Steven - I don't currently have the model or age, but it is a Kawai Grand that is roughly 40 years old I believe, in good shape, doesn't move, played relatively often - possibly heavy handed (second hand rumor :) ), but has blue underfelt.  I am not feeling any major tension resistance on those particular notes, but that could be something.  What lubricant do you normally use?

Thanks. :)

Perhaps I missed it but I didn't see the model or age of the piano. I've found that the Kawai grands with the brown understring felt often have rendering problems. I always apply some lubricant to the felts and it shortens the tuning time measurably. Might not solve the problem but would help eliminate the possibility.

Hi Adam,

My thoughts:

It could be your tuning technique. You probably have a very stable technique, as evidenced by the rest of the piano. However, there's always a possibility that something was done differently with these notes on the piano is being built. For example, the becket could be aligned differently here than on the rest of the pins, or the pins may have been drilled a slightly different angle. Either could cause the need for you to vary your technique on these specific pins. However, I don't think this is the case, as they hold tune through your test blows.

It could also be the bridge pins, as others have said. Or the hitch pin loop, as Mike pointed out. But more than that, I'm inclined to think it's the environment. Even the best controlled climates in churches are notoriously bad for the piano. As Ed said, those first notes on the capo tend to adsorb the environmental shifts more than other notes. Try everything you can think of, of course, but I'm willing to bet that, once the piano is moved to a more stable environment, you'll find the problem greatly minimized, if not gone entirely.

Hello.

I recently tuned a Kawai Grand that had been reasonably maintained in a mostly controlled environment.  Tuning was uneventful, basic amount of friction (not measured), tuning seemed stable, all was well with the world. :)

A week later client stated D5 was out of tune.  I found two of the three strings (in the unison) had wandered.  Re-tuned, tested, test blow, all good.  Just this one note.

A few days later, D5 out again, E5 starting to wane a bit.  After a bit of research, it seems a potential tuning pin issue (hammered them down slightly - same problem) or possible bridge pin issue.  Removed tension from the string and I could ever so slightly move the bridge pins on those strings.  I added some thin CA glue and this time D5 and E5 stayed reasonable for 2-3 weeks, then started to go again.  The rest of the tuning is fine, just a small set of notes in the 5th octave.

Previous tuner apparently had a similar issue in the 6th and 7th octave.  I can see the same discoloration from CA glue on those bridge pins.  Unfortunately I can no longer ask him about it.

So, my questions:

1. Is this tuning technique, just for a couple notes?
2. Is it a bridge pin issue or something else?
3. Can I tap the bridge pins like I did for the tuning pins and would it make a difference?
4. Is there any alternative to removing the pins, expoxying the holes, re-drilling and re-inserting?
   4a. Is it likely to solve the problem?

Thanks for your help and insight.

- Adam

Yes beckets can slip even with coils. Some tuning pins have chamfered holes and those seem to be worse for that. I've run into it several times. But start with the simple stuff, lubricate bearing points (I'm a fan of Jon Page's CBL too) and tuning hammer technique. If that doesn't work consider the becket. 

That being said I just tuned s as piano today that was tuned just a month ago (by someone else) and clearly tuning hammer technique and stabilization needed some practice. My main point was that considering the description it didn't sound like a plate bolt problem. 

Good Morning.  Thanks for all the suggestions.

David - Becket slipping?  That seems odd to me, how can the becket slip when there are three coils below it?  Tuning technique - possible, but to me seems unlikely since it is only D5, E5 that are having this problem.

The bridge pins do move as tension is applied, the hole appears slightly wider than the pin, but I cannot say they move after tension is in force and the string is struck.

Benjamin - haven't checked the hitch pin yet, but I did get another "vote" to check and see if the hitch pin is actually loose (outside the forum) like the bridge pins.  I will have to check that too.

As for the environment, it does seem odd to only affect a couple notes.  Unfortunately, the piano won't be leaving the choir rehearsal room to test that theory.  :)

Steven - I don't currently have the model or age, but it is a Kawai Grand that is roughly 40 years old I believe, in good shape, doesn't move, played relatively often - possibly heavy handed (second hand rumor :) ), but has blue underfelt.  I am not feeling any major tension resistance on those particular notes, but that could be something.  What lubricant do you normally use?

Thanks. :)

Perhaps I missed it but I didn't see the model or age of the piano. I've found that the Kawai grands with the brown understring felt often have rendering problems. I always apply some lubricant to the felts and it shortens the tuning time measurably. Might not solve the problem but would help eliminate the possibility.

Hi Adam,

My thoughts:

It could be your tuning technique. You probably have a very stable technique, as evidenced by the rest of the piano. However, there's always a possibility that something was done differently with these notes on the piano is being built. For example, the becket could be aligned differently here than on the rest of the pins, or the pins may have been drilled a slightly different angle. Either could cause the need for you to vary your technique on these specific pins. However, I don't think this is the case, as they hold tune through your test blows.

It could also be the bridge pins, as others have said. Or the hitch pin loop, as Mike pointed out. But more than that, I'm inclined to think it's the environment. Even the best controlled climates in churches are notoriously bad for the piano. As Ed said, those first notes on the capo tend to adsorb the environmental shifts more than other notes. Try everything you can think of, of course, but I'm willing to bet that, once the piano is moved to a more stable environment, you'll find the problem greatly minimized, if not gone entirely.

Hello.

I recently tuned a Kawai Grand that had been reasonably maintained in a mostly controlled environment.  Tuning was uneventful, basic amount of friction (not measured), tuning seemed stable, all was well with the world. :)

A week later client stated D5 was out of tune.  I found two of the three strings (in the unison) had wandered.  Re-tuned, tested, test blow, all good.  Just this one note.

A few days later, D5 out again, E5 starting to wane a bit.  After a bit of research, it seems a potential tuning pin issue (hammered them down slightly - same problem) or possible bridge pin issue.  Removed tension from the string and I could ever so slightly move the bridge pins on those strings.  I added some thin CA glue and this time D5 and E5 stayed reasonable for 2-3 weeks, then started to go again.  The rest of the tuning is fine, just a small set of notes in the 5th octave.

Previous tuner apparently had a similar issue in the 6th and 7th octave.  I can see the same discoloration from CA glue on those bridge pins.  Unfortunately I can no longer ask him about it.

So, my questions:

1. Is this tuning technique, just for a couple notes?
2. Is it a bridge pin issue or something else?
3. Can I tap the bridge pins like I did for the tuning pins and would it make a difference?
4. Is there any alternative to removing the pins, expoxying the holes, re-drilling and re-inserting?
   4a. Is it likely to solve the problem?

Thanks for your help and insight.

- Adam