Pianotech

Ron,

I tune EBVT analog/aural regularly...and different versions of it too. Happy to discuss it publicly. Whatcha got?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Thanks Peter, I thought you might be one that could help!

Here's my thinking: 

1.The apps that measure a bunch of notes are able to calculate/manipulate all sorts of intervals to "grow" the tuning from the temperament outwards.

2. Then the offsets for an alternate temperament are inserted - layered over the existing stretch/interval balance that the app has calculated for ET.

3. Going out from the temperament, using 12ths, 4ths, 5ths and such - the app doesn't use the temperament offsets to manipulate intervals - it just uses the same offsets each octave. (Which works fairly well, but not well enough for tempered octaves...)

So. If we are using a custom style(stretch) that references the 12th, (like trying to balance oct/12th or double oct/12th) The app isn't checking the beat speed of the 12th with the temperament alteration, just the ET temperament 12th with the offset added on.

This is how to go around using the offsets applied to every octave. Measure the piano as normal or use a saved file. Set the tuning to ET. I use my last style,  2.7.3 which I can share if you don't have it already. In fine tuning mode, there is an Alter command when you sweep right. Perhaps you've used that before? One thing that is important to making this work is that any alteration gets "baked in" to the tuning and will effect any note going out that references that altered note. Using Alter, enter the temperament offsets to notes A#3-G#4. I'm assuming A will have a zero offset. 

Now the temperament chosen is set for A3-A4 and the style/stretch choice will dictate how that is transferred to the treble and bass - using all of the internal interval settings. I've only tuned a couple of pianos with this method, so this is very preliminary. If you get a chance to test this, let me know if it is closer or farther from your aural results? 

FYI, when loading a saved file, you will get a chance to save or dump the alteration so the original file measurements will save and can be reverted back to standard ET, or to use the temperament offsets as per normal.

Ron Koval

Ron,

I tune EBVT analog/aural regularly...and different versions of it too. Happy to discuss it publicly. Whatcha got?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Ron,

This looks very interesting. I was not familiar with the "alter" feature (I don't think) but I'll try this method (though I'm a little slow in the ETD dept since it's not my normal MO). However, what you say about baking in the alterations like this is something I've asked for many times. 

I have used the custom offset feature to serve a similar purpose (bake it in) but of course the tuning is then specific only to that piano I do it on.  Since my primary objective in using an ETD has always been to be able to record my analog tuning and duplicate it  later with "less" effort, I like the option of locking in a specific pitch, or in this case as you are describing a reproduction (octave wise) of a locked in tempering scheme (assuming I'm reading this correctly). This could be a very useful feature. 

I'll let you know what I find as time permits.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Thanks Peter, I thought you might be one that could help!

Here's my thinking: 

1.The apps that measure a bunch of notes are able to calculate/manipulate all sorts of intervals to "grow" the tuning from the temperament outwards.

2. Then the offsets for an alternate temperament are inserted - layered over the existing stretch/interval balance that the app has calculated for ET.

3. Going out from the temperament, using 12ths, 4ths, 5ths and such - the app doesn't use the temperament offsets to manipulate intervals - it just uses the same offsets each octave. (Which works fairly well, but not well enough for tempered octaves...)

So. If we are using a custom style(stretch) that references the 12th, (like trying to balance oct/12th or double oct/12th) The app isn't checking the beat speed of the 12th with the temperament alteration, just the ET temperament 12th with the offset added on.

This is how to go around using the offsets applied to every octave. Measure the piano as normal or use a saved file. Set the tuning to ET. I use my last style,  2.7.3 which I can share if you don't have it already. In fine tuning mode, there is an Alter command when you sweep right. Perhaps you've used that before? One thing that is important to making this work is that any alteration gets "baked in" to the tuning and will effect any note going out that references that altered note. Using Alter, enter the temperament offsets to notes A#3-G#4. I'm assuming A will have a zero offset. 

Now the temperament chosen is set for A3-A4 and the style/stretch choice will dictate how that is transferred to the treble and bass - using all of the internal interval settings. I've only tuned a couple of pianos with this method, so this is very preliminary. If you get a chance to test this, let me know if it is closer or farther from your aural results? 

FYI, when loading a saved file, you will get a chance to save or dump the alteration so the original file measurements will save and can be reverted back to standard ET, or to use the temperament offsets as per normal.

Ron Koval

Ron,

I tune EBVT analog/aural regularly...and different versions of it too. Happy to discuss it publicly. Whatcha got?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Thanks Peter - Yes, if you want to even extend out from A3-A4 with the aural midrange using the alter command, then that should spread out to the rest depending on the style chosen. Here is one that has plenty of 12ths to guide the stretch. 

You will have the tedious job of entering this as a new custom style. It is a mashup of Jon Page's and my own approaches. All beats set to 0,0 so they aren't listed here.

A0 6:3 34% /9:3 34% /8:2 32%

A1 6:3 45% /6:2 45% /8:2 10%

D#2 6:3 35% /6:2 25% /8:2 40%

C3 6:3 30% /6:2 30% /4:2 40%

A3-4 6:3 30% /4:2 40% /2:1 30%

A5 4:1 30% /4:2 30% /3:1 40%

F#6 4:1 40% /3:1 60%

C8 4:1  40% /3:1 60%

Feel free to change any of these to meet your specific preferences. The intervals used will transition between the setpoints so there shouldn't be any abrupt changes.

Ron Koval

------------------------------
Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL

Original Message:
Sent: 07-31-2024 08:02
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

Ron,

This looks very interesting. I was not familiar with the "alter" feature (I don't think) but I'll try this method (though I'm a little slow in the ETD dept since it's not my normal MO). However, what you say about baking in the alterations like this is something I've asked for many times. 

I have used the custom offset feature to serve a similar purpose (bake it in) but of course the tuning is then specific only to that piano I do it on.  Since my primary objective in using an ETD has always been to be able to record my analog tuning and duplicate it  later with "less" effort, I like the option of locking in a specific pitch, or in this case as you are describing a reproduction (octave wise) of a locked in tempering scheme (assuming I'm reading this correctly). This could be a very useful feature. 

I'll let you know what I find as time permits.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-29-2024 20:20
From: Ron Koval
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

Thanks Peter, I thought you might be one that could help!

Here's my thinking: 

1.The apps that measure a bunch of notes are able to calculate/manipulate all sorts of intervals to "grow" the tuning from the temperament outwards.

2. Then the offsets for an alternate temperament are inserted - layered over the existing stretch/interval balance that the app has calculated for ET.

3. Going out from the temperament, using 12ths, 4ths, 5ths and such - the app doesn't use the temperament offsets to manipulate intervals - it just uses the same offsets each octave. (Which works fairly well, but not well enough for tempered octaves...)

So. If we are using a custom style(stretch) that references the 12th, (like trying to balance oct/12th or double oct/12th) The app isn't checking the beat speed of the 12th with the temperament alteration, just the ET temperament 12th with the offset added on.

This is how to go around using the offsets applied to every octave. Measure the piano as normal or use a saved file. Set the tuning to ET. I use my last style,  2.7.3 which I can share if you don't have it already. In fine tuning mode, there is an Alter command when you sweep right. Perhaps you've used that before? One thing that is important to making this work is that any alteration gets "baked in" to the tuning and will effect any note going out that references that altered note. Using Alter, enter the temperament offsets to notes A#3-G#4. I'm assuming A will have a zero offset. 

Now the temperament chosen is set for A3-A4 and the style/stretch choice will dictate how that is transferred to the treble and bass - using all of the internal interval settings. I've only tuned a couple of pianos with this method, so this is very preliminary. If you get a chance to test this, let me know if it is closer or farther from your aural results? 

FYI, when loading a saved file, you will get a chance to save or dump the alteration so the original file measurements will save and can be reverted back to standard ET, or to use the temperament offsets as per normal.

Ron Koval

------------------------------
Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL

Original Message:
Sent: 07-29-2024 18:13
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

Ron,

I tune EBVT analog/aural regularly...and different versions of it too. Happy to discuss it publicly. Whatcha got?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-29-2024 18:03
From: Ron Koval
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

------------------------------
Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL
------------------------------

Ummm...I just realized that you're talking about Verituner...yes?  Whereas I had Piatune in mind. That may explain why I was unfamiliar with the "alter" procedure. 

Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't have Verituner. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Edit: My inclination lately has been to simply use custom offsets to lock in anything as I want it. Piatune makes this ridiculously easy (though octaves cannot reference previous offsets), Pianoscope cannot do custom offsets at all, Tunelab does, but it's kind of klutsy (unless someone knows better and can tell me), Pianometer...I'm not sure about (if so it must be hidden somewhere), Verituner has thus alter feature (which seems intriguing). 

Again correct me if I'm wrong on any of this please.

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-31-2024 09:11
From: Ron Koval
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

Thanks Peter - Yes, if you want to even extend out from A3-A4 with the aural midrange using the alter command, then that should spread out to the rest depending on the style chosen. Here is one that has plenty of 12ths to guide the stretch. 

You will have the tedious job of entering this as a new custom style. It is a mashup of Jon Page's and my own approaches. All beats set to 0,0 so they aren't listed here.

A0 6:3 34% /9:3 34% /8:2 32%

A1 6:3 45% /6:2 45% /8:2 10%

D#2 6:3 35% /6:2 25% /8:2 40%

C3 6:3 30% /6:2 30% /4:2 40%

A3-4 6:3 30% /4:2 40% /2:1 30%

A5 4:1 30% /4:2 30% /3:1 40%

F#6 4:1 40% /3:1 60%

C8 4:1  40% /3:1 60%

Feel free to change any of these to meet your specific preferences. The intervals used will transition between the setpoints so there shouldn't be any abrupt changes.

Ron Koval

------------------------------
Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL

Original Message:
Sent: 07-31-2024 08:02
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

Ron,

This looks very interesting. I was not familiar with the "alter" feature (I don't think) but I'll try this method (though I'm a little slow in the ETD dept since it's not my normal MO). However, what you say about baking in the alterations like this is something I've asked for many times. 

I have used the custom offset feature to serve a similar purpose (bake it in) but of course the tuning is then specific only to that piano I do it on.  Since my primary objective in using an ETD has always been to be able to record my analog tuning and duplicate it  later with "less" effort, I like the option of locking in a specific pitch, or in this case as you are describing a reproduction (octave wise) of a locked in tempering scheme (assuming I'm reading this correctly). This could be a very useful feature. 

I'll let you know what I find as time permits.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-29-2024 20:20
From: Ron Koval
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

Thanks Peter, I thought you might be one that could help!

Here's my thinking: 

1.The apps that measure a bunch of notes are able to calculate/manipulate all sorts of intervals to "grow" the tuning from the temperament outwards.

2. Then the offsets for an alternate temperament are inserted - layered over the existing stretch/interval balance that the app has calculated for ET.

3. Going out from the temperament, using 12ths, 4ths, 5ths and such - the app doesn't use the temperament offsets to manipulate intervals - it just uses the same offsets each octave. (Which works fairly well, but not well enough for tempered octaves...)

So. If we are using a custom style(stretch) that references the 12th, (like trying to balance oct/12th or double oct/12th) The app isn't checking the beat speed of the 12th with the temperament alteration, just the ET temperament 12th with the offset added on.

This is how to go around using the offsets applied to every octave. Measure the piano as normal or use a saved file. Set the tuning to ET. I use my last style,  2.7.3 which I can share if you don't have it already. In fine tuning mode, there is an Alter command when you sweep right. Perhaps you've used that before? One thing that is important to making this work is that any alteration gets "baked in" to the tuning and will effect any note going out that references that altered note. Using Alter, enter the temperament offsets to notes A#3-G#4. I'm assuming A will have a zero offset. 

Now the temperament chosen is set for A3-A4 and the style/stretch choice will dictate how that is transferred to the treble and bass - using all of the internal interval settings. I've only tuned a couple of pianos with this method, so this is very preliminary. If you get a chance to test this, let me know if it is closer or farther from your aural results? 

FYI, when loading a saved file, you will get a chance to save or dump the alteration so the original file measurements will save and can be reverted back to standard ET, or to use the temperament offsets as per normal.

Ron Koval

------------------------------
Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL

Original Message:
Sent: 07-29-2024 18:13
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

Ron,

I tune EBVT analog/aural regularly...and different versions of it too. Happy to discuss it publicly. Whatcha got?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-29-2024 18:03
From: Ron Koval
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

------------------------------
Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL
------------------------------

Yes. Verituner. Oh well!

As far as I know, that's the only app that can work this way. 

Ron Koval

Ummm...I just realized that you're talking about Verituner...yes?  Whereas I had Piatune in mind. That may explain why I was unfamiliar with the "alter" procedure. 

Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't have Verituner. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Edit: My inclination lately has been to simply use custom offsets to lock in anything as I want it. Piatune makes this ridiculously easy (though octaves cannot reference previous offsets), Pianoscope cannot do custom offsets at all, Tunelab does, but it's kind of klutsy (unless someone knows better and can tell me), Pianometer...I'm not sure about (if so it must be hidden somewhere), Verituner has thus alter feature (which seems intriguing). 

Again correct me if I'm wrong on any of this please.

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-31-2024 09:11
From: Ron Koval
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

Thanks Peter - Yes, if you want to even extend out from A3-A4 with the aural midrange using the alter command, then that should spread out to the rest depending on the style chosen. Here is one that has plenty of 12ths to guide the stretch. 

You will have the tedious job of entering this as a new custom style. It is a mashup of Jon Page's and my own approaches. All beats set to 0,0 so they aren't listed here.

A0 6:3 34% /9:3 34% /8:2 32%

A1 6:3 45% /6:2 45% /8:2 10%

D#2 6:3 35% /6:2 25% /8:2 40%

C3 6:3 30% /6:2 30% /4:2 40%

A3-4 6:3 30% /4:2 40% /2:1 30%

A5 4:1 30% /4:2 30% /3:1 40%

F#6 4:1 40% /3:1 60%

C8 4:1  40% /3:1 60%

Feel free to change any of these to meet your specific preferences. The intervals used will transition between the setpoints so there shouldn't be any abrupt changes.

Ron Koval

------------------------------
Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL

Original Message:
Sent: 07-31-2024 08:02
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

Ron,

This looks very interesting. I was not familiar with the "alter" feature (I don't think) but I'll try this method (though I'm a little slow in the ETD dept since it's not my normal MO). However, what you say about baking in the alterations like this is something I've asked for many times. 

I have used the custom offset feature to serve a similar purpose (bake it in) but of course the tuning is then specific only to that piano I do it on.  Since my primary objective in using an ETD has always been to be able to record my analog tuning and duplicate it  later with "less" effort, I like the option of locking in a specific pitch, or in this case as you are describing a reproduction (octave wise) of a locked in tempering scheme (assuming I'm reading this correctly). This could be a very useful feature. 

I'll let you know what I find as time permits.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-29-2024 20:20
From: Ron Koval
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

Thanks Peter, I thought you might be one that could help!

Here's my thinking: 

1.The apps that measure a bunch of notes are able to calculate/manipulate all sorts of intervals to "grow" the tuning from the temperament outwards.

2. Then the offsets for an alternate temperament are inserted - layered over the existing stretch/interval balance that the app has calculated for ET.

3. Going out from the temperament, using 12ths, 4ths, 5ths and such - the app doesn't use the temperament offsets to manipulate intervals - it just uses the same offsets each octave. (Which works fairly well, but not well enough for tempered octaves...)

So. If we are using a custom style(stretch) that references the 12th, (like trying to balance oct/12th or double oct/12th) The app isn't checking the beat speed of the 12th with the temperament alteration, just the ET temperament 12th with the offset added on.

This is how to go around using the offsets applied to every octave. Measure the piano as normal or use a saved file. Set the tuning to ET. I use my last style,  2.7.3 which I can share if you don't have it already. In fine tuning mode, there is an Alter command when you sweep right. Perhaps you've used that before? One thing that is important to making this work is that any alteration gets "baked in" to the tuning and will effect any note going out that references that altered note. Using Alter, enter the temperament offsets to notes A#3-G#4. I'm assuming A will have a zero offset. 

Now the temperament chosen is set for A3-A4 and the style/stretch choice will dictate how that is transferred to the treble and bass - using all of the internal interval settings. I've only tuned a couple of pianos with this method, so this is very preliminary. If you get a chance to test this, let me know if it is closer or farther from your aural results? 

FYI, when loading a saved file, you will get a chance to save or dump the alteration so the original file measurements will save and can be reverted back to standard ET, or to use the temperament offsets as per normal.

Ron Koval

------------------------------
Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL

Original Message:
Sent: 07-29-2024 18:13
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

Ron,

I tune EBVT analog/aural regularly...and different versions of it too. Happy to discuss it publicly. Whatcha got?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-29-2024 18:03
From: Ron Koval
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

------------------------------
Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL
------------------------------

It turns out that with the mild temperaments that I prefer, there is very little, if any difference between this longer method and just loading a temperament normally. It may have some use or benefit for stronger temperaments, but I'm shelving this idea for now..

Ron Koval

Yes. Verituner. Oh well!

As far as I know, that's the only app that can work this way. 

Ron Koval

Ummm...I just realized that you're talking about Verituner...yes?  Whereas I had Piatune in mind. That may explain why I was unfamiliar with the "alter" procedure. 

Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't have Verituner. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Edit: My inclination lately has been to simply use custom offsets to lock in anything as I want it. Piatune makes this ridiculously easy (though octaves cannot reference previous offsets), Pianoscope cannot do custom offsets at all, Tunelab does, but it's kind of klutsy (unless someone knows better and can tell me), Pianometer...I'm not sure about (if so it must be hidden somewhere), Verituner has thus alter feature (which seems intriguing). 

Again correct me if I'm wrong on any of this please.

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-31-2024 09:11
From: Ron Koval
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

Thanks Peter - Yes, if you want to even extend out from A3-A4 with the aural midrange using the alter command, then that should spread out to the rest depending on the style chosen. Here is one that has plenty of 12ths to guide the stretch. 

You will have the tedious job of entering this as a new custom style. It is a mashup of Jon Page's and my own approaches. All beats set to 0,0 so they aren't listed here.

A0 6:3 34% /9:3 34% /8:2 32%

A1 6:3 45% /6:2 45% /8:2 10%

D#2 6:3 35% /6:2 25% /8:2 40%

C3 6:3 30% /6:2 30% /4:2 40%

A3-4 6:3 30% /4:2 40% /2:1 30%

A5 4:1 30% /4:2 30% /3:1 40%

F#6 4:1 40% /3:1 60%

C8 4:1  40% /3:1 60%

Feel free to change any of these to meet your specific preferences. The intervals used will transition between the setpoints so there shouldn't be any abrupt changes.

Ron Koval

------------------------------
Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL

Original Message:
Sent: 07-31-2024 08:02
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

Ron,

This looks very interesting. I was not familiar with the "alter" feature (I don't think) but I'll try this method (though I'm a little slow in the ETD dept since it's not my normal MO). However, what you say about baking in the alterations like this is something I've asked for many times. 

I have used the custom offset feature to serve a similar purpose (bake it in) but of course the tuning is then specific only to that piano I do it on.  Since my primary objective in using an ETD has always been to be able to record my analog tuning and duplicate it  later with "less" effort, I like the option of locking in a specific pitch, or in this case as you are describing a reproduction (octave wise) of a locked in tempering scheme (assuming I'm reading this correctly). This could be a very useful feature. 

I'll let you know what I find as time permits.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-29-2024 20:20
From: Ron Koval
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

Thanks Peter, I thought you might be one that could help!

Here's my thinking: 

1.The apps that measure a bunch of notes are able to calculate/manipulate all sorts of intervals to "grow" the tuning from the temperament outwards.

2. Then the offsets for an alternate temperament are inserted - layered over the existing stretch/interval balance that the app has calculated for ET.

3. Going out from the temperament, using 12ths, 4ths, 5ths and such - the app doesn't use the temperament offsets to manipulate intervals - it just uses the same offsets each octave. (Which works fairly well, but not well enough for tempered octaves...)

So. If we are using a custom style(stretch) that references the 12th, (like trying to balance oct/12th or double oct/12th) The app isn't checking the beat speed of the 12th with the temperament alteration, just the ET temperament 12th with the offset added on.

This is how to go around using the offsets applied to every octave. Measure the piano as normal or use a saved file. Set the tuning to ET. I use my last style,  2.7.3 which I can share if you don't have it already. In fine tuning mode, there is an Alter command when you sweep right. Perhaps you've used that before? One thing that is important to making this work is that any alteration gets "baked in" to the tuning and will effect any note going out that references that altered note. Using Alter, enter the temperament offsets to notes A#3-G#4. I'm assuming A will have a zero offset. 

Now the temperament chosen is set for A3-A4 and the style/stretch choice will dictate how that is transferred to the treble and bass - using all of the internal interval settings. I've only tuned a couple of pianos with this method, so this is very preliminary. If you get a chance to test this, let me know if it is closer or farther from your aural results? 

FYI, when loading a saved file, you will get a chance to save or dump the alteration so the original file measurements will save and can be reverted back to standard ET, or to use the temperament offsets as per normal.

Ron Koval

------------------------------
Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL

Original Message:
Sent: 07-29-2024 18:13
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

Ron,

I tune EBVT analog/aural regularly...and different versions of it too. Happy to discuss it publicly. Whatcha got?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-29-2024 18:03
From: Ron Koval
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

------------------------------
Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL
------------------------------

Equal Beating Victorian Temperament

      A PTG search for EBVT did not easily answer my questions. I'd like to know the following please.

What does Victorian have to do with it?

Are there other equal beating temperaments?  For instance?

Are the equal beats only in the temperament?

Which intervals beat alike?

Do any intervals beat slower than their upper neighbor including larger intervals over an octave?

      I find areas on certain pianos with seemingly equal beats, but to this point thought it perhaps possible to still be within the territory of what we call equal temperament or at least quasi.  Rates that change course are obviously wrong; but equal?  Hmmm…

Interesting. I'd appreciate a clue. I suppose one can eventually approach it once knowing which intervals purposely beat alike but what is the usual aural tuning sequence?  Fun new topic perhaps or was this already in the Journal and I missed it?   PK

It turns out that with the mild temperaments that I prefer, there is very little, if any difference between this longer method and just loading a temperament normally. It may have some use or benefit for stronger temperaments, but I'm shelving this idea for now..

Ron Koval

Yes. Verituner. Oh well!

As far as I know, that's the only app that can work this way. 

Ron Koval

Ummm...I just realized that you're talking about Verituner...yes?  Whereas I had Piatune in mind. That may explain why I was unfamiliar with the "alter" procedure. 

Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't have Verituner. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Edit: My inclination lately has been to simply use custom offsets to lock in anything as I want it. Piatune makes this ridiculously easy (though octaves cannot reference previous offsets), Pianoscope cannot do custom offsets at all, Tunelab does, but it's kind of klutsy (unless someone knows better and can tell me), Pianometer...I'm not sure about (if so it must be hidden somewhere), Verituner has thus alter feature (which seems intriguing). 

Again correct me if I'm wrong on any of this please.

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-31-2024 09:11
From: Ron Koval
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

Thanks Peter - Yes, if you want to even extend out from A3-A4 with the aural midrange using the alter command, then that should spread out to the rest depending on the style chosen. Here is one that has plenty of 12ths to guide the stretch. 

You will have the tedious job of entering this as a new custom style. It is a mashup of Jon Page's and my own approaches. All beats set to 0,0 so they aren't listed here.

A0 6:3 34% /9:3 34% /8:2 32%

A1 6:3 45% /6:2 45% /8:2 10%

D#2 6:3 35% /6:2 25% /8:2 40%

C3 6:3 30% /6:2 30% /4:2 40%

A3-4 6:3 30% /4:2 40% /2:1 30%

A5 4:1 30% /4:2 30% /3:1 40%

F#6 4:1 40% /3:1 60%

C8 4:1  40% /3:1 60%

Feel free to change any of these to meet your specific preferences. The intervals used will transition between the setpoints so there shouldn't be any abrupt changes.

Ron Koval

------------------------------
Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL

Original Message:
Sent: 07-31-2024 08:02
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

Ron,

This looks very interesting. I was not familiar with the "alter" feature (I don't think) but I'll try this method (though I'm a little slow in the ETD dept since it's not my normal MO). However, what you say about baking in the alterations like this is something I've asked for many times. 

I have used the custom offset feature to serve a similar purpose (bake it in) but of course the tuning is then specific only to that piano I do it on.  Since my primary objective in using an ETD has always been to be able to record my analog tuning and duplicate it  later with "less" effort, I like the option of locking in a specific pitch, or in this case as you are describing a reproduction (octave wise) of a locked in tempering scheme (assuming I'm reading this correctly). This could be a very useful feature. 

I'll let you know what I find as time permits.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-29-2024 20:20
From: Ron Koval
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

Thanks Peter, I thought you might be one that could help!

Here's my thinking: 

1.The apps that measure a bunch of notes are able to calculate/manipulate all sorts of intervals to "grow" the tuning from the temperament outwards.

2. Then the offsets for an alternate temperament are inserted - layered over the existing stretch/interval balance that the app has calculated for ET.

3. Going out from the temperament, using 12ths, 4ths, 5ths and such - the app doesn't use the temperament offsets to manipulate intervals - it just uses the same offsets each octave. (Which works fairly well, but not well enough for tempered octaves...)

So. If we are using a custom style(stretch) that references the 12th, (like trying to balance oct/12th or double oct/12th) The app isn't checking the beat speed of the 12th with the temperament alteration, just the ET temperament 12th with the offset added on.

This is how to go around using the offsets applied to every octave. Measure the piano as normal or use a saved file. Set the tuning to ET. I use my last style,  2.7.3 which I can share if you don't have it already. In fine tuning mode, there is an Alter command when you sweep right. Perhaps you've used that before? One thing that is important to making this work is that any alteration gets "baked in" to the tuning and will effect any note going out that references that altered note. Using Alter, enter the temperament offsets to notes A#3-G#4. I'm assuming A will have a zero offset. 

Now the temperament chosen is set for A3-A4 and the style/stretch choice will dictate how that is transferred to the treble and bass - using all of the internal interval settings. I've only tuned a couple of pianos with this method, so this is very preliminary. If you get a chance to test this, let me know if it is closer or farther from your aural results? 

FYI, when loading a saved file, you will get a chance to save or dump the alteration so the original file measurements will save and can be reverted back to standard ET, or to use the temperament offsets as per normal.

Ron Koval

------------------------------
Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL

Original Message:
Sent: 07-29-2024 18:13
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

Ron,

I tune EBVT analog/aural regularly...and different versions of it too. Happy to discuss it publicly. Whatcha got?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-29-2024 18:03
From: Ron Koval
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

------------------------------
Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL
------------------------------

Equal Beating Victorian Temperament

      A PTG search for EBVT did not easily answer my questions. I'd like to know the following please.

What does Victorian have to do with it?

Are there other equal beating temperaments?  For instance?

Are the equal beats only in the temperament?

Which intervals beat alike?

Do any intervals beat slower than their upper neighbor including larger intervals over an octave?

      I find areas on certain pianos with seemingly equal beats, but to this point thought it perhaps possible to still be within the territory of what we call equal temperament or at least quasi.  Rates that change course are obviously wrong; but equal?  Hmmm…

Interesting. I'd appreciate a clue. I suppose one can eventually approach it once knowing which intervals purposely beat alike but what is the usual aural tuning sequence?  Fun new topic perhaps or was this already in the Journal and I missed it?   PK

It turns out that with the mild temperaments that I prefer, there is very little, if any difference between this longer method and just loading a temperament normally. It may have some use or benefit for stronger temperaments, but I'm shelving this idea for now..

Ron Koval

Yes. Verituner. Oh well!

As far as I know, that's the only app that can work this way. 

Ron Koval

Ummm...I just realized that you're talking about Verituner...yes?  Whereas I had Piatune in mind. That may explain why I was unfamiliar with the "alter" procedure. 

Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't have Verituner. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Edit: My inclination lately has been to simply use custom offsets to lock in anything as I want it. Piatune makes this ridiculously easy (though octaves cannot reference previous offsets), Pianoscope cannot do custom offsets at all, Tunelab does, but it's kind of klutsy (unless someone knows better and can tell me), Pianometer...I'm not sure about (if so it must be hidden somewhere), Verituner has thus alter feature (which seems intriguing). 

Again correct me if I'm wrong on any of this please.

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-31-2024 09:11
From: Ron Koval
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

Thanks Peter - Yes, if you want to even extend out from A3-A4 with the aural midrange using the alter command, then that should spread out to the rest depending on the style chosen. Here is one that has plenty of 12ths to guide the stretch. 

You will have the tedious job of entering this as a new custom style. It is a mashup of Jon Page's and my own approaches. All beats set to 0,0 so they aren't listed here.

A0 6:3 34% /9:3 34% /8:2 32%

A1 6:3 45% /6:2 45% /8:2 10%

D#2 6:3 35% /6:2 25% /8:2 40%

C3 6:3 30% /6:2 30% /4:2 40%

A3-4 6:3 30% /4:2 40% /2:1 30%

A5 4:1 30% /4:2 30% /3:1 40%

F#6 4:1 40% /3:1 60%

C8 4:1  40% /3:1 60%

Feel free to change any of these to meet your specific preferences. The intervals used will transition between the setpoints so there shouldn't be any abrupt changes.

Ron Koval

------------------------------
Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL

Original Message:
Sent: 07-31-2024 08:02
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

Ron,

This looks very interesting. I was not familiar with the "alter" feature (I don't think) but I'll try this method (though I'm a little slow in the ETD dept since it's not my normal MO). However, what you say about baking in the alterations like this is something I've asked for many times. 

I have used the custom offset feature to serve a similar purpose (bake it in) but of course the tuning is then specific only to that piano I do it on.  Since my primary objective in using an ETD has always been to be able to record my analog tuning and duplicate it  later with "less" effort, I like the option of locking in a specific pitch, or in this case as you are describing a reproduction (octave wise) of a locked in tempering scheme (assuming I'm reading this correctly). This could be a very useful feature. 

I'll let you know what I find as time permits.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-29-2024 20:20
From: Ron Koval
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

Thanks Peter, I thought you might be one that could help!

Here's my thinking: 

1.The apps that measure a bunch of notes are able to calculate/manipulate all sorts of intervals to "grow" the tuning from the temperament outwards.

2. Then the offsets for an alternate temperament are inserted - layered over the existing stretch/interval balance that the app has calculated for ET.

3. Going out from the temperament, using 12ths, 4ths, 5ths and such - the app doesn't use the temperament offsets to manipulate intervals - it just uses the same offsets each octave. (Which works fairly well, but not well enough for tempered octaves...)

So. If we are using a custom style(stretch) that references the 12th, (like trying to balance oct/12th or double oct/12th) The app isn't checking the beat speed of the 12th with the temperament alteration, just the ET temperament 12th with the offset added on.

This is how to go around using the offsets applied to every octave. Measure the piano as normal or use a saved file. Set the tuning to ET. I use my last style,  2.7.3 which I can share if you don't have it already. In fine tuning mode, there is an Alter command when you sweep right. Perhaps you've used that before? One thing that is important to making this work is that any alteration gets "baked in" to the tuning and will effect any note going out that references that altered note. Using Alter, enter the temperament offsets to notes A#3-G#4. I'm assuming A will have a zero offset. 

Now the temperament chosen is set for A3-A4 and the style/stretch choice will dictate how that is transferred to the treble and bass - using all of the internal interval settings. I've only tuned a couple of pianos with this method, so this is very preliminary. If you get a chance to test this, let me know if it is closer or farther from your aural results? 

FYI, when loading a saved file, you will get a chance to save or dump the alteration so the original file measurements will save and can be reverted back to standard ET, or to use the temperament offsets as per normal.

Ron Koval

------------------------------
Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL

Original Message:
Sent: 07-29-2024 18:13
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

Ron,

I tune EBVT analog/aural regularly...and different versions of it too. Happy to discuss it publicly. Whatcha got?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-29-2024 18:03
From: Ron Koval
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

------------------------------
Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL
------------------------------

Paul,

I've been tuning EBVT for a long time now and like it very much. Bill's ORIGINAL instructions for constructing it called for intervals in rapid succession to be tuned to identical beat rates. These were F3-A3, G3-B3, C4-E4, and G3-E4...all tuned at 6 bps. Several other intervals within are tuned to be equally beating. The current version of the temperament alters the C3-E3 3rd to be a little faster. Bill said that he compromised this because some pianists found the temperament a bit too "strong". (I personally prefer it's original iteration and normally tune it that way).

The term "equal beating" simply means that the beat rates of some intervals are intentionally set equal to one or more other intervals. I feel that the biggest bang for the buck comes with the equal beating 3rds and 6th as noted above. Also, bear in mind that the tuner has leeway to adjust these speeds as seen fit so as to make it "stronger" or "weaker" and the same tuning "rules" apply. I feel it is a well designed temperament scheme. (Of course it's not entirely dreamed up by Bill as he researched UT's for quite a while to get the hang of it). 

Finally, after you've done it a dozen times or so you will not need the printed instructions, plus you will find that the results on a poorly scaled instrument (a.k.a. PSO) likely will not match the "theoretically correct" results on a decent piano. Nonetheless, it will make the PSO (technically impossible to tune in ET anyway) sound better (especially in simple keys) than any attempt at ET would. 

I'm happy to answer anything I can about tuning it in analog (aural) fashion.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-05-2024 22:00
From: Paul Klaus
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

Equal Beating Victorian Temperament

      A PTG search for EBVT did not easily answer my questions. I'd like to know the following please.

What does Victorian have to do with it?

Are there other equal beating temperaments?  For instance?

Are the equal beats only in the temperament?

Which intervals beat alike?

Do any intervals beat slower than their upper neighbor including larger intervals over an octave?

      I find areas on certain pianos with seemingly equal beats, but to this point thought it perhaps possible to still be within the territory of what we call equal temperament or at least quasi.  Rates that change course are obviously wrong; but equal?  Hmmm…

Interesting. I'd appreciate a clue. I suppose one can eventually approach it once knowing which intervals purposely beat alike but what is the usual aural tuning sequence?  Fun new topic perhaps or was this already in the Journal and I missed it?   PK

Original Message:
Sent: 08-05-2024 16:53
From: Ron Koval
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

It turns out that with the mild temperaments that I prefer, there is very little, if any difference between this longer method and just loading a temperament normally. It may have some use or benefit for stronger temperaments, but I'm shelving this idea for now..

Ron Koval

------------------------------
Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL

Original Message:
Sent: 07-31-2024 21:24
From: Ron Koval
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

Yes. Verituner. Oh well!

As far as I know, that's the only app that can work this way. 

Ron Koval

------------------------------
Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL

Original Message:
Sent: 07-31-2024 18:30
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

Ummm...I just realized that you're talking about Verituner...yes?  Whereas I had Piatune in mind. That may explain why I was unfamiliar with the "alter" procedure. 

Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't have Verituner. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Edit: My inclination lately has been to simply use custom offsets to lock in anything as I want it. Piatune makes this ridiculously easy (though octaves cannot reference previous offsets), Pianoscope cannot do custom offsets at all, Tunelab does, but it's kind of klutsy (unless someone knows better and can tell me), Pianometer...I'm not sure about (if so it must be hidden somewhere), Verituner has thus alter feature (which seems intriguing). 

Again correct me if I'm wrong on any of this please.

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-31-2024 09:11
From: Ron Koval
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

Thanks Peter - Yes, if you want to even extend out from A3-A4 with the aural midrange using the alter command, then that should spread out to the rest depending on the style chosen. Here is one that has plenty of 12ths to guide the stretch. 

You will have the tedious job of entering this as a new custom style. It is a mashup of Jon Page's and my own approaches. All beats set to 0,0 so they aren't listed here.

A0 6:3 34% /9:3 34% /8:2 32%

A1 6:3 45% /6:2 45% /8:2 10%

D#2 6:3 35% /6:2 25% /8:2 40%

C3 6:3 30% /6:2 30% /4:2 40%

A3-4 6:3 30% /4:2 40% /2:1 30%

A5 4:1 30% /4:2 30% /3:1 40%

F#6 4:1 40% /3:1 60%

C8 4:1  40% /3:1 60%

Feel free to change any of these to meet your specific preferences. The intervals used will transition between the setpoints so there shouldn't be any abrupt changes.

Ron Koval

------------------------------
Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL

Original Message:
Sent: 07-31-2024 08:02
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

Ron,

This looks very interesting. I was not familiar with the "alter" feature (I don't think) but I'll try this method (though I'm a little slow in the ETD dept since it's not my normal MO). However, what you say about baking in the alterations like this is something I've asked for many times. 

I have used the custom offset feature to serve a similar purpose (bake it in) but of course the tuning is then specific only to that piano I do it on.  Since my primary objective in using an ETD has always been to be able to record my analog tuning and duplicate it  later with "less" effort, I like the option of locking in a specific pitch, or in this case as you are describing a reproduction (octave wise) of a locked in tempering scheme (assuming I'm reading this correctly). This could be a very useful feature. 

I'll let you know what I find as time permits.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-29-2024 20:20
From: Ron Koval
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

Thanks Peter, I thought you might be one that could help!

Here's my thinking: 

1.The apps that measure a bunch of notes are able to calculate/manipulate all sorts of intervals to "grow" the tuning from the temperament outwards.

2. Then the offsets for an alternate temperament are inserted - layered over the existing stretch/interval balance that the app has calculated for ET.

3. Going out from the temperament, using 12ths, 4ths, 5ths and such - the app doesn't use the temperament offsets to manipulate intervals - it just uses the same offsets each octave. (Which works fairly well, but not well enough for tempered octaves...)

So. If we are using a custom style(stretch) that references the 12th, (like trying to balance oct/12th or double oct/12th) The app isn't checking the beat speed of the 12th with the temperament alteration, just the ET temperament 12th with the offset added on.

This is how to go around using the offsets applied to every octave. Measure the piano as normal or use a saved file. Set the tuning to ET. I use my last style,  2.7.3 which I can share if you don't have it already. In fine tuning mode, there is an Alter command when you sweep right. Perhaps you've used that before? One thing that is important to making this work is that any alteration gets "baked in" to the tuning and will effect any note going out that references that altered note. Using Alter, enter the temperament offsets to notes A#3-G#4. I'm assuming A will have a zero offset. 

Now the temperament chosen is set for A3-A4 and the style/stretch choice will dictate how that is transferred to the treble and bass - using all of the internal interval settings. I've only tuned a couple of pianos with this method, so this is very preliminary. If you get a chance to test this, let me know if it is closer or farther from your aural results? 

FYI, when loading a saved file, you will get a chance to save or dump the alteration so the original file measurements will save and can be reverted back to standard ET, or to use the temperament offsets as per normal.

Ron Koval

------------------------------
Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL

Original Message:
Sent: 07-29-2024 18:13
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

Ron,

I tune EBVT analog/aural regularly...and different versions of it too. Happy to discuss it publicly. Whatcha got?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-29-2024 18:03
From: Ron Koval
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

------------------------------
Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL
------------------------------

Equal Beating Victorian Temperament

      A PTG search for EBVT did not easily answer my questions. I'd like to know the following please.

What does Victorian have to do with it?

Are there other equal beating temperaments?  For instance?

Are the equal beats only in the temperament?

Which intervals beat alike?

Do any intervals beat slower than their upper neighbor including larger intervals over an octave?

      I find areas on certain pianos with seemingly equal beats, but to this point thought it perhaps possible to still be within the territory of what we call equal temperament or at least quasi.  Rates that change course are obviously wrong; but equal?  Hmmm…

Interesting. I'd appreciate a clue. I suppose one can eventually approach it once knowing which intervals purposely beat alike but what is the usual aural tuning sequence?  Fun new topic perhaps or was this already in the Journal and I missed it?   PK

It turns out that with the mild temperaments that I prefer, there is very little, if any difference between this longer method and just loading a temperament normally. It may have some use or benefit for stronger temperaments, but I'm shelving this idea for now..

Ron Koval

Yes. Verituner. Oh well!

As far as I know, that's the only app that can work this way. 

Ron Koval

Ummm...I just realized that you're talking about Verituner...yes?  Whereas I had Piatune in mind. That may explain why I was unfamiliar with the "alter" procedure. 

Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't have Verituner. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Edit: My inclination lately has been to simply use custom offsets to lock in anything as I want it. Piatune makes this ridiculously easy (though octaves cannot reference previous offsets), Pianoscope cannot do custom offsets at all, Tunelab does, but it's kind of klutsy (unless someone knows better and can tell me), Pianometer...I'm not sure about (if so it must be hidden somewhere), Verituner has thus alter feature (which seems intriguing). 

Again correct me if I'm wrong on any of this please.

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-31-2024 09:11
From: Ron Koval
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

Thanks Peter - Yes, if you want to even extend out from A3-A4 with the aural midrange using the alter command, then that should spread out to the rest depending on the style chosen. Here is one that has plenty of 12ths to guide the stretch. 

You will have the tedious job of entering this as a new custom style. It is a mashup of Jon Page's and my own approaches. All beats set to 0,0 so they aren't listed here.

A0 6:3 34% /9:3 34% /8:2 32%

A1 6:3 45% /6:2 45% /8:2 10%

D#2 6:3 35% /6:2 25% /8:2 40%

C3 6:3 30% /6:2 30% /4:2 40%

A3-4 6:3 30% /4:2 40% /2:1 30%

A5 4:1 30% /4:2 30% /3:1 40%

F#6 4:1 40% /3:1 60%

C8 4:1  40% /3:1 60%

Feel free to change any of these to meet your specific preferences. The intervals used will transition between the setpoints so there shouldn't be any abrupt changes.

Ron Koval

------------------------------
Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL

Original Message:
Sent: 07-31-2024 08:02
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

Ron,

This looks very interesting. I was not familiar with the "alter" feature (I don't think) but I'll try this method (though I'm a little slow in the ETD dept since it's not my normal MO). However, what you say about baking in the alterations like this is something I've asked for many times. 

I have used the custom offset feature to serve a similar purpose (bake it in) but of course the tuning is then specific only to that piano I do it on.  Since my primary objective in using an ETD has always been to be able to record my analog tuning and duplicate it  later with "less" effort, I like the option of locking in a specific pitch, or in this case as you are describing a reproduction (octave wise) of a locked in tempering scheme (assuming I'm reading this correctly). This could be a very useful feature. 

I'll let you know what I find as time permits.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-29-2024 20:20
From: Ron Koval
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

Thanks Peter, I thought you might be one that could help!

Here's my thinking: 

1.The apps that measure a bunch of notes are able to calculate/manipulate all sorts of intervals to "grow" the tuning from the temperament outwards.

2. Then the offsets for an alternate temperament are inserted - layered over the existing stretch/interval balance that the app has calculated for ET.

3. Going out from the temperament, using 12ths, 4ths, 5ths and such - the app doesn't use the temperament offsets to manipulate intervals - it just uses the same offsets each octave. (Which works fairly well, but not well enough for tempered octaves...)

So. If we are using a custom style(stretch) that references the 12th, (like trying to balance oct/12th or double oct/12th) The app isn't checking the beat speed of the 12th with the temperament alteration, just the ET temperament 12th with the offset added on.

This is how to go around using the offsets applied to every octave. Measure the piano as normal or use a saved file. Set the tuning to ET. I use my last style,  2.7.3 which I can share if you don't have it already. In fine tuning mode, there is an Alter command when you sweep right. Perhaps you've used that before? One thing that is important to making this work is that any alteration gets "baked in" to the tuning and will effect any note going out that references that altered note. Using Alter, enter the temperament offsets to notes A#3-G#4. I'm assuming A will have a zero offset. 

Now the temperament chosen is set for A3-A4 and the style/stretch choice will dictate how that is transferred to the treble and bass - using all of the internal interval settings. I've only tuned a couple of pianos with this method, so this is very preliminary. If you get a chance to test this, let me know if it is closer or farther from your aural results? 

FYI, when loading a saved file, you will get a chance to save or dump the alteration so the original file measurements will save and can be reverted back to standard ET, or to use the temperament offsets as per normal.

Ron Koval

------------------------------
Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL

Original Message:
Sent: 07-29-2024 18:13
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

Ron,

I tune EBVT analog/aural regularly...and different versions of it too. Happy to discuss it publicly. Whatcha got?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-29-2024 18:03
From: Ron Koval
Subject: Verituner/EBVT - new approach?

------------------------------
Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL
------------------------------