Pianotech

1983?  Wurlitzer B. Grand #1720371-----  Been "CLP-ing"  hammer flanges each year for the past 10 years because customer didn't want to pay for re-pinning.  He's now ready to "bite the bullet" so-to-speak after too much frustration.  He is, however dithering over whether to repin the entire piano or only those problem keys (quite a few).   I can't remember who built this piano, or whether it is one known to have vertigris issues or not. Can anyone enlighten me?  

Also -- Having never re-pinned an entire set of hammer flanges, any suggestions for speeding the process to make it a bit more economical for him?  (I've re-pinned a few here and there as needed before, but never the entire set.)

Lastly-- how long should I allow for 88 hammer flanges? 

TIA--

Tim

------------------------------
Timothy Edwards
Beckley WV
(740) 517-7636
------------------------------

This piano is likely either a Samick or Young Chang.  It's not likely to have vertigris, as we have seen in old Steinways.  These flanges were dipped in a tallow solution, which later proved to cause corrosion of the pins and excess friction.  You will have to ream and repin the flanges.  I had a situation years ago when I had a YC action that was sluggish.  I tried a variety of methods, including heat, shrinking with alcohol/water, using a Zapper, and actual repinning.  The only solution that worked permanently was repinning.  I would suggest numbering the hammers and removing every other one for repinning.  This will help in aligning them when you remount the flanges.  When you remove the pins, you'll likely see a dark ring where they set into the bushing felt.  Sometimes the dye leaches out of the felt and dries on the pin, which causes the problem, or maybe excess glue.  I would guess this would take about 2-3 hours.

1983?  Wurlitzer B. Grand #1720371-----  Been "CLP-ing"  hammer flanges each year for the past 10 years because customer didn't want to pay for re-pinning.  He's now ready to "bite the bullet" so-to-speak after too much frustration.  He is, however dithering over whether to repin the entire piano or only those problem keys (quite a few).   I can't remember who built this piano, or whether it is one known to have vertigris issues or not. Can anyone enlighten me?  

Also -- Having never re-pinned an entire set of hammer flanges, any suggestions for speeding the process to make it a bit more economical for him?  (I've re-pinned a few here and there as needed before, but never the entire set.)

Lastly-- how long should I allow for 88 hammer flanges? 

TIA--

Tim

------------------------------
Timothy Edwards
Beckley WV
(740) 517-7636
------------------------------

Paul and Wim, 

Any suggestions for a good center pin nipper?   I've used side cutters in the past, but haven't been very impressed with the results.  (Had to push the pin out a bit on one side, cut it and then push it back in.  It performed just fine, but I'm wondering if another tool would give a cleaner cut.) 

--- Tim

This piano is likely either a Samick or Young Chang.  It's not likely to have vertigris, as we have seen in old Steinways.  These flanges were dipped in a tallow solution, which later proved to cause corrosion of the pins and excess friction.  You will have to ream and repin the flanges.  I had a situation years ago when I had a YC action that was sluggish.  I tried a variety of methods, including heat, shrinking with alcohol/water, using a Zapper, and actual repinning.  The only solution that worked permanently was repinning.  I would suggest numbering the hammers and removing every other one for repinning.  This will help in aligning them when you remount the flanges.  When you remove the pins, you'll likely see a dark ring where they set into the bushing felt.  Sometimes the dye leaches out of the felt and dries on the pin, which causes the problem, or maybe excess glue.  I would guess this would take about 2-3 hours.

1983?  Wurlitzer B. Grand #1720371-----  Been "CLP-ing"  hammer flanges each year for the past 10 years because customer didn't want to pay for re-pinning.  He's now ready to "bite the bullet" so-to-speak after too much frustration.  He is, however dithering over whether to repin the entire piano or only those problem keys (quite a few).   I can't remember who built this piano, or whether it is one known to have vertigris issues or not. Can anyone enlighten me?  

Also -- Having never re-pinned an entire set of hammer flanges, any suggestions for speeding the process to make it a bit more economical for him?  (I've re-pinned a few here and there as needed before, but never the entire set.)

Lastly-- how long should I allow for 88 hammer flanges? 

TIA--

Tim

------------------------------
Timothy Edwards
Beckley WV
(740) 517-7636
------------------------------

I use the flush-cutting style nippers (around $75 I think). More expensive, but they work much better in my opinion. But - do NOT use them for cutting voicing needles! That will ruin them. Don't ask me how I know that. 

Paul and Wim, 

Any suggestions for a good center pin nipper?   I've used side cutters in the past, but haven't been very impressed with the results.  (Had to push the pin out a bit on one side, cut it and then push it back in.  It performed just fine, but I'm wondering if another tool would give a cleaner cut.) 

--- Tim

This piano is likely either a Samick or Young Chang.  It's not likely to have vertigris, as we have seen in old Steinways.  These flanges were dipped in a tallow solution, which later proved to cause corrosion of the pins and excess friction.  You will have to ream and repin the flanges.  I had a situation years ago when I had a YC action that was sluggish.  I tried a variety of methods, including heat, shrinking with alcohol/water, using a Zapper, and actual repinning.  The only solution that worked permanently was repinning.  I would suggest numbering the hammers and removing every other one for repinning.  This will help in aligning them when you remount the flanges.  When you remove the pins, you'll likely see a dark ring where they set into the bushing felt.  Sometimes the dye leaches out of the felt and dries on the pin, which causes the problem, or maybe excess glue.  I would guess this would take about 2-3 hours.

1983?  Wurlitzer B. Grand #1720371-----  Been "CLP-ing"  hammer flanges each year for the past 10 years because customer didn't want to pay for re-pinning.  He's now ready to "bite the bullet" so-to-speak after too much frustration.  He is, however dithering over whether to repin the entire piano or only those problem keys (quite a few).   I can't remember who built this piano, or whether it is one known to have vertigris issues or not. Can anyone enlighten me?  

Also -- Having never re-pinned an entire set of hammer flanges, any suggestions for speeding the process to make it a bit more economical for him?  (I've re-pinned a few here and there as needed before, but never the entire set.)

Lastly-- how long should I allow for 88 hammer flanges? 

TIA--

Tim

------------------------------
Timothy Edwards
Beckley WV
(740) 517-7636
------------------------------

This piano is likely either a Samick or Young Chang.  It's not likely to have vertigris, as we have seen in old Steinways.  These flanges were dipped in a tallow solution, which later proved to cause corrosion of the pins and excess friction.  You will have to ream and repin the flanges.  I had a situation years ago when I had a YC action that was sluggish.  I tried a variety of methods, including heat, shrinking with alcohol/water, using a Zapper, and actual repinning.  The only solution that worked permanently was repinning.  I would suggest numbering the hammers and removing every other one for repinning.  This will help in aligning them when you remount the flanges.  When you remove the pins, you'll likely see a dark ring where they set into the bushing felt.  Sometimes the dye leaches out of the felt and dries on the pin, which causes the problem, or maybe excess glue.  I would guess this would take about 2-3 hours.

1983?  Wurlitzer B. Grand #1720371-----  Been "CLP-ing"  hammer flanges each year for the past 10 years because customer didn't want to pay for re-pinning.  He's now ready to "bite the bullet" so-to-speak after too much frustration.  He is, however dithering over whether to repin the entire piano or only those problem keys (quite a few).   I can't remember who built this piano, or whether it is one known to have vertigris issues or not. Can anyone enlighten me?  

Also -- Having never re-pinned an entire set of hammer flanges, any suggestions for speeding the process to make it a bit more economical for him?  (I've re-pinned a few here and there as needed before, but never the entire set.)

Lastly-- how long should I allow for 88 hammer flanges? 

TIA--

Tim

------------------------------
Timothy Edwards
Beckley WV
(740) 517-7636
------------------------------

This piano is likely either a Samick or Young Chang.  It's not likely to have vertigris, as we have seen in old Steinways.  These flanges were dipped in a tallow solution, which later proved to cause corrosion of the pins and excess friction.  You will have to ream and repin the flanges.  I had a situation years ago when I had a YC action that was sluggish.  I tried a variety of methods, including heat, shrinking with alcohol/water, using a Zapper, and actual repinning.  The only solution that worked permanently was repinning.  I would suggest numbering the hammers and removing every other one for repinning.  This will help in aligning them when you remount the flanges.  When you remove the pins, you'll likely see a dark ring where they set into the bushing felt.  Sometimes the dye leaches out of the felt and dries on the pin, which causes the problem, or maybe excess glue.  I would guess this would take about 2-3 hours.

1983?  Wurlitzer B. Grand #1720371-----  Been "CLP-ing"  hammer flanges each year for the past 10 years because customer didn't want to pay for re-pinning.  He's now ready to "bite the bullet" so-to-speak after too much frustration.  He is, however dithering over whether to repin the entire piano or only those problem keys (quite a few).   I can't remember who built this piano, or whether it is one known to have vertigris issues or not. Can anyone enlighten me?  

Also -- Having never re-pinned an entire set of hammer flanges, any suggestions for speeding the process to make it a bit more economical for him?  (I've re-pinned a few here and there as needed before, but never the entire set.)

Lastly-- how long should I allow for 88 hammer flanges? 

TIA--

Tim

------------------------------
Timothy Edwards
Beckley WV
(740) 517-7636
------------------------------

1983?  Wurlitzer B. Grand #1720371-----  Been "CLP-ing"  hammer flanges each year for the past 10 years because customer didn't want to pay for re-pinning.  He's now ready to "bite the bullet" so-to-speak after too much frustration.  He is, however dithering over whether to repin the entire piano or only those problem keys (quite a few).   I can't remember who built this piano, or whether it is one known to have vertigris issues or not. Can anyone enlighten me?  

Also -- Having never re-pinned an entire set of hammer flanges, any suggestions for speeding the process to make it a bit more economical for him?  (I've re-pinned a few here and there as needed before, but never the entire set.)

Lastly-- how long should I allow for 88 hammer flanges? 

TIA--

Tim

------------------------------
Timothy Edwards
Beckley WV
(740) 517-7636
------------------------------

1983?  Wurlitzer B. Grand #1720371-----  Been "CLP-ing"  hammer flanges each year for the past 10 years because customer didn't want to pay for re-pinning.  He's now ready to "bite the bullet" so-to-speak after too much frustration.  He is, however dithering over whether to repin the entire piano or only those problem keys (quite a few).   I can't remember who built this piano, or whether it is one known to have vertigris issues or not. Can anyone enlighten me?  

Also -- Having never re-pinned an entire set of hammer flanges, any suggestions for speeding the process to make it a bit more economical for him?  (I've re-pinned a few here and there as needed before, but never the entire set.)

Lastly-- how long should I allow for 88 hammer flanges? 

TIA--

Tim

------------------------------
Timothy Edwards
Beckley WV
(740) 517-7636
------------------------------

Tim,

If you haven't really done this before you had better allow a lot more time. 8 hrs...possibly more. You nay also find more things wrong once you start. These types of jobs tend to chew up lots of time. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

1983?  Wurlitzer B. Grand #1720371-----  Been "CLP-ing"  hammer flanges each year for the past 10 years because customer didn't want to pay for re-pinning.  He's now ready to "bite the bullet" so-to-speak after too much frustration.  He is, however dithering over whether to repin the entire piano or only those problem keys (quite a few).   I can't remember who built this piano, or whether it is one known to have vertigris issues or not. Can anyone enlighten me?  

Also -- Having never re-pinned an entire set of hammer flanges, any suggestions for speeding the process to make it a bit more economical for him?  (I've re-pinned a few here and there as needed before, but never the entire set.)

Lastly-- how long should I allow for 88 hammer flanges? 

TIA--

Tim

------------------------------
Timothy Edwards
Beckley WV
(740) 517-7636
------------------------------

Peter,

Given that time estimate, I'm debating possibly removing the action stack and taking it to my house to do this work.  That way I can take a break when things become too tedious (and rest my arthritic hands).  Just have to measure to be sure it'll fit in our Honda HRV.  (Probably will.  My piano tilter just fits.)  I'd prefer to avoid transporting the entire keyboard/action assembly.  Just too bulky to load and unload in our SUV.   I can't think of any down side to doing it that way, but perhaps I'm missing something. 

--- Tim

Tim,

If you haven't really done this before you had better allow a lot more time. 8 hrs...possibly more. You nay also find more things wrong once you start. These types of jobs tend to chew up lots of time. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

1983?  Wurlitzer B. Grand #1720371-----  Been "CLP-ing"  hammer flanges each year for the past 10 years because customer didn't want to pay for re-pinning.  He's now ready to "bite the bullet" so-to-speak after too much frustration.  He is, however dithering over whether to repin the entire piano or only those problem keys (quite a few).   I can't remember who built this piano, or whether it is one known to have vertigris issues or not. Can anyone enlighten me?  

Also -- Having never re-pinned an entire set of hammer flanges, any suggestions for speeding the process to make it a bit more economical for him?  (I've re-pinned a few here and there as needed before, but never the entire set.)

Lastly-- how long should I allow for 88 hammer flanges? 

TIA--

Tim

------------------------------
Timothy Edwards
Beckley WV
(740) 517-7636
------------------------------

Peter,

Given that time estimate, I'm debating possibly removing the action stack and taking it to my house to do this work.  That way I can take a break when things become too tedious (and rest my arthritic hands).  Just have to measure to be sure it'll fit in our Honda HRV.  (Probably will.  My piano tilter just fits.)  I'd prefer to avoid transporting the entire keyboard/action assembly.  Just too bulky to load and unload in our SUV.   I can't think of any down side to doing it that way, but perhaps I'm missing something. 

--- Tim

Tim,

If you haven't really done this before you had better allow a lot more time. 8 hrs...possibly more. You nay also find more things wrong once you start. These types of jobs tend to chew up lots of time. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

1983?  Wurlitzer B. Grand #1720371-----  Been "CLP-ing"  hammer flanges each year for the past 10 years because customer didn't want to pay for re-pinning.  He's now ready to "bite the bullet" so-to-speak after too much frustration.  He is, however dithering over whether to repin the entire piano or only those problem keys (quite a few).   I can't remember who built this piano, or whether it is one known to have vertigris issues or not. Can anyone enlighten me?  

Also -- Having never re-pinned an entire set of hammer flanges, any suggestions for speeding the process to make it a bit more economical for him?  (I've re-pinned a few here and there as needed before, but never the entire set.)

Lastly-- how long should I allow for 88 hammer flanges? 

TIA--

Tim

------------------------------
Timothy Edwards
Beckley WV
(740) 517-7636
------------------------------

Tim,

If you haven't really done this before you had better allow a lot more time. 8 hrs...possibly more. You nay also find more things wrong once you start. These types of jobs tend to chew up lots of time. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

1983?  Wurlitzer B. Grand #1720371-----  Been "CLP-ing"  hammer flanges each year for the past 10 years because customer didn't want to pay for re-pinning.  He's now ready to "bite the bullet" so-to-speak after too much frustration.  He is, however dithering over whether to repin the entire piano or only those problem keys (quite a few).   I can't remember who built this piano, or whether it is one known to have vertigris issues or not. Can anyone enlighten me?  

Also -- Having never re-pinned an entire set of hammer flanges, any suggestions for speeding the process to make it a bit more economical for him?  (I've re-pinned a few here and there as needed before, but never the entire set.)

Lastly-- how long should I allow for 88 hammer flanges? 

TIA--

Tim

------------------------------
Timothy Edwards
Beckley WV
(740) 517-7636
------------------------------

Tim,

If you haven't really done this before you had better allow a lot more time. 8 hrs...possibly more. You nay also find more things wrong once you start. These types of jobs tend to chew up lots of time. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

1983?  Wurlitzer B. Grand #1720371-----  Been "CLP-ing"  hammer flanges each year for the past 10 years because customer didn't want to pay for re-pinning.  He's now ready to "bite the bullet" so-to-speak after too much frustration.  He is, however dithering over whether to repin the entire piano or only those problem keys (quite a few).   I can't remember who built this piano, or whether it is one known to have vertigris issues or not. Can anyone enlighten me?  

Also -- Having never re-pinned an entire set of hammer flanges, any suggestions for speeding the process to make it a bit more economical for him?  (I've re-pinned a few here and there as needed before, but never the entire set.)

Lastly-- how long should I allow for 88 hammer flanges? 

TIA--

Tim

------------------------------
Timothy Edwards
Beckley WV
(740) 517-7636
------------------------------

1983?  Wurlitzer B. Grand #1720371-----  Been "CLP-ing"  hammer flanges each year for the past 10 years because customer didn't want to pay for re-pinning.  He's now ready to "bite the bullet" so-to-speak after too much frustration.  He is, however dithering over whether to repin the entire piano or only those problem keys (quite a few).   I can't remember who built this piano, or whether it is one known to have vertigris issues or not. Can anyone enlighten me?  

Also -- Having never re-pinned an entire set of hammer flanges, any suggestions for speeding the process to make it a bit more economical for him?  (I've re-pinned a few here and there as needed before, but never the entire set.)

Lastly-- how long should I allow for 88 hammer flanges? 

TIA--

Tim

------------------------------
Timothy Edwards
Beckley WV
(740) 517-7636
------------------------------

I've always used the side nippers from the supply houses.  Even if they stick out a little, it's usually nothing to worry about.  I've never had a problem with them. 

As far as removing the rail, I might suggest just removing the stack instead.  You don't want to install the rail even a mm off where it was before you moved it.  It would be easier to align the flanges after removing them if you have everything sitting there.  I have a small Ford Focus where I'll put an action stack or upright action on the passenger floorboard and rest the other end on the seat back. 

1983?  Wurlitzer B. Grand #1720371-----  Been "CLP-ing"  hammer flanges each year for the past 10 years because customer didn't want to pay for re-pinning.  He's now ready to "bite the bullet" so-to-speak after too much frustration.  He is, however dithering over whether to repin the entire piano or only those problem keys (quite a few).   I can't remember who built this piano, or whether it is one known to have vertigris issues or not. Can anyone enlighten me?  

Also -- Having never re-pinned an entire set of hammer flanges, any suggestions for speeding the process to make it a bit more economical for him?  (I've re-pinned a few here and there as needed before, but never the entire set.)

Lastly-- how long should I allow for 88 hammer flanges? 

TIA--

Tim

------------------------------
Timothy Edwards
Beckley WV
(740) 517-7636
------------------------------

1983?  Wurlitzer B. Grand #1720371-----  Been "CLP-ing"  hammer flanges each year for the past 10 years because customer didn't want to pay for re-pinning.  He's now ready to "bite the bullet" so-to-speak after too much frustration.  He is, however dithering over whether to repin the entire piano or only those problem keys (quite a few).   I can't remember who built this piano, or whether it is one known to have vertigris issues or not. Can anyone enlighten me?  

Also -- Having never re-pinned an entire set of hammer flanges, any suggestions for speeding the process to make it a bit more economical for him?  (I've re-pinned a few here and there as needed before, but never the entire set.)

Lastly-- how long should I allow for 88 hammer flanges? 

TIA--

Tim

------------------------------
Timothy Edwards
Beckley WV
(740) 517-7636
------------------------------

1983?  Wurlitzer B. Grand #1720371-----  Been "CLP-ing"  hammer flanges each year for the past 10 years because customer didn't want to pay for re-pinning.  He's now ready to "bite the bullet" so-to-speak after too much frustration.  He is, however dithering over whether to repin the entire piano or only those problem keys (quite a few).   I can't remember who built this piano, or whether it is one known to have vertigris issues or not. Can anyone enlighten me?  

Also -- Having never re-pinned an entire set of hammer flanges, any suggestions for speeding the process to make it a bit more economical for him?  (I've re-pinned a few here and there as needed before, but never the entire set.)

Lastly-- how long should I allow for 88 hammer flanges? 

TIA--

Tim

------------------------------
Timothy Edwards
Beckley WV
(740) 517-7636
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 10:35:00 AM
From: Timothy Edwards
Subject: Vertigris?

1983?  Wurlitzer B. Grand #1720371-----  Been "CLP-ing"  hammer flanges each year for the past 10 years because customer didn't want to pay for re-pinning.  He's now ready to "bite the bullet" so-to-speak after too much frustration.  He is, however dithering over whether to repin the entire piano or only those problem keys (quite a few).   I can't remember who built this piano, or whether it is one known to have vertigris issues or not. Can anyone enlighten me?  

Also -- Having never re-pinned an entire set of hammer flanges, any suggestions for speeding the process to make it a bit more economical for him?  (I've re-pinned a few here and there as needed before, but never the entire set.)

Lastly-- how long should I allow for 88 hammer flanges? 

TIA--

Tim

------------------------------
Timothy Edwards
Beckley WV
(740) 517-7636
------------------------------

Tim,

The approach I would take with the owner is to gather several printed "discussions" on this matter (perhaps an earlier one right from this platform) and hand it all to him and say: "Before I agree to tackle this, you need to read all of this so you know what's involved and why". 

The reason for the above is that it's not really a matter of money (per se) but rather a matter of trust. They need to be fully convinced of the validity of the situation, that you're not making any of it up, and that there is the possibility that it could be worse than it appears right now. It carries greater authority when coming from the "mouths" of others rather than you (no matter how much he likes and trusts you). He needs to understand that it is a very widespread problem resulting from some manufacturing process and has nothing to do with anything he did or you did. It just IS...and it's a PAIN IN THE NECK (literally) to fix.  Then he needs to commit to paying you for whatever time and materials are required for the job (it's only fair).

Personally, I would use SS pre-cut center pins as a replacement. They are EXPENSIVE (customer pays for this) but they will eliminate two steps of the procedure (cutting the ends), eliminate any distortion of the ends from the cutting, and if there is any contamination of any sort in there they will not expose an alloy to it, basically sealing up any chemical reaction from occurring later. 

I agree that testing the chemical treatment contained in the "fantastik" is an option to suggest, however the time tested reliable method has proven to be the more labor intensive re-pinning procedure. (Offer to do one right in front of him so he understands what's involved, then multiply by 88 or possibly 264).

The point here is simply that this is not your fault, nor his fault, and there is no reliable "shortcut" to remedy this and you need to be paid whatever it takes to fix it. Otherwise he'll need to live with it or replace the piano with a better one. 

EDIT: Is there any possibility that this ALSO has growing bracket problems? 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 04-18-2024 03:19
From: Douglas Mahard
Subject: Vertigris?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 10:35:00 AM
From: Timothy Edwards
Subject: Vertigris?

1983?  Wurlitzer B. Grand #1720371-----  Been "CLP-ing"  hammer flanges each year for the past 10 years because customer didn't want to pay for re-pinning.  He's now ready to "bite the bullet" so-to-speak after too much frustration.  He is, however dithering over whether to repin the entire piano or only those problem keys (quite a few).   I can't remember who built this piano, or whether it is one known to have vertigris issues or not. Can anyone enlighten me?  

Also -- Having never re-pinned an entire set of hammer flanges, any suggestions for speeding the process to make it a bit more economical for him?  (I've re-pinned a few here and there as needed before, but never the entire set.)

Lastly-- how long should I allow for 88 hammer flanges? 

TIA--

Tim

------------------------------
Timothy Edwards
Beckley WV
(740) 517-7636
------------------------------

Tim,

You can also take side cutters to a grinding wheel and grind the side down flush to the cutting blades. This is fine for center pins. I've been using mine for years

Tim,

The approach I would take with the owner is to gather several printed "discussions" on this matter (perhaps an earlier one right from this platform) and hand it all to him and say: "Before I agree to tackle this, you need to read all of this so you know what's involved and why". 

The reason for the above is that it's not really a matter of money (per se) but rather a matter of trust. They need to be fully convinced of the validity of the situation, that you're not making any of it up, and that there is the possibility that it could be worse than it appears right now. It carries greater authority when coming from the "mouths" of others rather than you (no matter how much he likes and trusts you). He needs to understand that it is a very widespread problem resulting from some manufacturing process and has nothing to do with anything he did or you did. It just IS...and it's a PAIN IN THE NECK (literally) to fix.  Then he needs to commit to paying you for whatever time and materials are required for the job (it's only fair).

Personally, I would use SS pre-cut center pins as a replacement. They are EXPENSIVE (customer pays for this) but they will eliminate two steps of the procedure (cutting the ends), eliminate any distortion of the ends from the cutting, and if there is any contamination of any sort in there they will not expose an alloy to it, basically sealing up any chemical reaction from occurring later. 

I agree that testing the chemical treatment contained in the "fantastik" is an option to suggest, however the time tested reliable method has proven to be the more labor intensive re-pinning procedure. (Offer to do one right in front of him so he understands what's involved, then multiply by 88 or possibly 264).

The point here is simply that this is not your fault, nor his fault, and there is no reliable "shortcut" to remedy this and you need to be paid whatever it takes to fix it. Otherwise he'll need to live with it or replace the piano with a better one. 

EDIT: Is there any possibility that this ALSO has growing bracket problems? 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 04-18-2024 03:19
From: Douglas Mahard
Subject: Vertigris?

Original Message:
Sent: 4/17/2024 10:35:00 AM
From: Timothy Edwards
Subject: Vertigris?

1983?  Wurlitzer B. Grand #1720371-----  Been "CLP-ing"  hammer flanges each year for the past 10 years because customer didn't want to pay for re-pinning.  He's now ready to "bite the bullet" so-to-speak after too much frustration.  He is, however dithering over whether to repin the entire piano or only those problem keys (quite a few).   I can't remember who built this piano, or whether it is one known to have vertigris issues or not. Can anyone enlighten me?  

Also -- Having never re-pinned an entire set of hammer flanges, any suggestions for speeding the process to make it a bit more economical for him?  (I've re-pinned a few here and there as needed before, but never the entire set.)

Lastly-- how long should I allow for 88 hammer flanges? 

TIA--

Tim

------------------------------
Timothy Edwards
Beckley WV
(740) 517-7636
------------------------------

1983?  Wurlitzer B. Grand #1720371-----  Been "CLP-ing"  hammer flanges each year for the past 10 years because customer didn't want to pay for re-pinning.  He's now ready to "bite the bullet" so-to-speak after too much frustration.  He is, however dithering over whether to repin the entire piano or only those problem keys (quite a few).   I can't remember who built this piano, or whether it is one known to have vertigris issues or not. Can anyone enlighten me?  

Also -- Having never re-pinned an entire set of hammer flanges, any suggestions for speeding the process to make it a bit more economical for him?  (I've re-pinned a few here and there as needed before, but never the entire set.)

Lastly-- how long should I allow for 88 hammer flanges? 

TIA--

Tim

------------------------------
Timothy Edwards
Beckley WV
(740) 517-7636
------------------------------

Thanks to all for the great advice!  After further consideration, I've decided to "farm" this one out.  I wouldn't mind doing the work, but I'm not sure my arthritic hands would hold up to the many hours of fine work required for this.  I've contacted a local rebuilder to do the job.  Again, many thanks! 

1983?  Wurlitzer B. Grand #1720371-----  Been "CLP-ing"  hammer flanges each year for the past 10 years because customer didn't want to pay for re-pinning.  He's now ready to "bite the bullet" so-to-speak after too much frustration.  He is, however dithering over whether to repin the entire piano or only those problem keys (quite a few).   I can't remember who built this piano, or whether it is one known to have vertigris issues or not. Can anyone enlighten me?  

Also -- Having never re-pinned an entire set of hammer flanges, any suggestions for speeding the process to make it a bit more economical for him?  (I've re-pinned a few here and there as needed before, but never the entire set.)

Lastly-- how long should I allow for 88 hammer flanges? 

TIA--

Tim

------------------------------
Timothy Edwards
Beckley WV
(740) 517-7636
------------------------------

1983?  Wurlitzer B. Grand #1720371-----  Been "CLP-ing"  hammer flanges each year for the past 10 years because customer didn't want to pay for re-pinning.  He's now ready to "bite the bullet" so-to-speak after too much frustration.  He is, however dithering over whether to repin the entire piano or only those problem keys (quite a few).   I can't remember who built this piano, or whether it is one known to have vertigris issues or not. Can anyone enlighten me?  

Also -- Having never re-pinned an entire set of hammer flanges, any suggestions for speeding the process to make it a bit more economical for him?  (I've re-pinned a few here and there as needed before, but never the entire set.)

Lastly-- how long should I allow for 88 hammer flanges? 

TIA--

Tim

------------------------------
Timothy Edwards
Beckley WV
(740) 517-7636
------------------------------

Question for this older thread:

I am rebushing and repinning to correct a vertigris problem in an older S&S, and I have a question about sealing the wood.  Mario Igrec's "Pianos Inside Out' p 247 says 'A longterm solution for verdigris is to .. seal the wood around the bushings then rebush and repin them", then on the next page expands on this with 'If verdigris (green buildup) is visible on the bushings the wood may have been treated with a substance that will cause the verdigris to reappear, despite the new bushing.  To prevent that seal the holes by swabbing them with a dab of thinned clear varnish or thin CA glue.'

Anyone have experience with this 'sealing'?  It kind of makes sense since verdigris is a chemical reaction, but I had never heard of it until reading Igrec's note.

------------------------------
Walter Bagnall
Chillicothe OH

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 10:35
From: Timothy Edwards
Subject: Vertigris?

1983?  Wurlitzer B. Grand #1720371-----  Been "CLP-ing"  hammer flanges each year for the past 10 years because customer didn't want to pay for re-pinning.  He's now ready to "bite the bullet" so-to-speak after too much frustration.  He is, however dithering over whether to repin the entire piano or only those problem keys (quite a few).   I can't remember who built this piano, or whether it is one known to have vertigris issues or not. Can anyone enlighten me?  

Also -- Having never re-pinned an entire set of hammer flanges, any suggestions for speeding the process to make it a bit more economical for him?  (I've re-pinned a few here and there as needed before, but never the entire set.)

Lastly-- how long should I allow for 88 hammer flanges? 

TIA--

Tim

------------------------------
Timothy Edwards
Beckley WV
(740) 517-7636
------------------------------

Are new flanges really too expensive? Problem solved.

Question for this older thread:

I am rebushing and repinning to correct a vertigris problem in an older S&S, and I have a question about sealing the wood.  Mario Igrec's "Pianos Inside Out' p 247 says 'A longterm solution for verdigris is to .. seal the wood around the bushings then rebush and repin them", then on the next page expands on this with 'If verdigris (green buildup) is visible on the bushings the wood may have been treated with a substance that will cause the verdigris to reappear, despite the new bushing.  To prevent that seal the holes by swabbing them with a dab of thinned clear varnish or thin CA glue.'

Anyone have experience with this 'sealing'?  It kind of makes sense since verdigris is a chemical reaction, but I had never heard of it until reading Igrec's note.

1983?  Wurlitzer B. Grand #1720371-----  Been "CLP-ing"  hammer flanges each year for the past 10 years because customer didn't want to pay for re-pinning.  He's now ready to "bite the bullet" so-to-speak after too much frustration.  He is, however dithering over whether to repin the entire piano or only those problem keys (quite a few).   I can't remember who built this piano, or whether it is one known to have vertigris issues or not. Can anyone enlighten me?  

Also -- Having never re-pinned an entire set of hammer flanges, any suggestions for speeding the process to make it a bit more economical for him?  (I've re-pinned a few here and there as needed before, but never the entire set.)

Lastly-- how long should I allow for 88 hammer flanges? 

TIA--

Tim

------------------------------
Timothy Edwards
Beckley WV
(740) 517-7636
------------------------------

Larry,

New flanges will not necessarily be exact duplicates (in fact rarely), and we all know what that means. Been there done that. 

Walter,

Since you've determined to REPLACE the bushings (at least that's how I read your post), the new cloth in and of itself should provide a new "lifetime" for the parts. However, an addition precaution woukd be to use the SS rolled pins (current manufacture although pricey at $100/oz). Since there is no exposed copper, the likelihood of re-infection would be reduced to near zero. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Are new flanges really too expensive? Problem solved.

Question for this older thread:

I am rebushing and repinning to correct a vertigris problem in an older S&S, and I have a question about sealing the wood.  Mario Igrec's "Pianos Inside Out' p 247 says 'A longterm solution for verdigris is to .. seal the wood around the bushings then rebush and repin them", then on the next page expands on this with 'If verdigris (green buildup) is visible on the bushings the wood may have been treated with a substance that will cause the verdigris to reappear, despite the new bushing.  To prevent that seal the holes by swabbing them with a dab of thinned clear varnish or thin CA glue.'

Anyone have experience with this 'sealing'?  It kind of makes sense since verdigris is a chemical reaction, but I had never heard of it until reading Igrec's note.

1983?  Wurlitzer B. Grand #1720371-----  Been "CLP-ing"  hammer flanges each year for the past 10 years because customer didn't want to pay for re-pinning.  He's now ready to "bite the bullet" so-to-speak after too much frustration.  He is, however dithering over whether to repin the entire piano or only those problem keys (quite a few).   I can't remember who built this piano, or whether it is one known to have vertigris issues or not. Can anyone enlighten me?  

Also -- Having never re-pinned an entire set of hammer flanges, any suggestions for speeding the process to make it a bit more economical for him?  (I've re-pinned a few here and there as needed before, but never the entire set.)

Lastly-- how long should I allow for 88 hammer flanges? 

TIA--

Tim

------------------------------
Timothy Edwards
Beckley WV
(740) 517-7636
------------------------------

Are new flanges really too expensive? Problem solved.

Question for this older thread:

I am rebushing and repinning to correct a vertigris problem in an older S&S, and I have a question about sealing the wood.  Mario Igrec's "Pianos Inside Out' p 247 says 'A longterm solution for verdigris is to .. seal the wood around the bushings then rebush and repin them", then on the next page expands on this with 'If verdigris (green buildup) is visible on the bushings the wood may have been treated with a substance that will cause the verdigris to reappear, despite the new bushing.  To prevent that seal the holes by swabbing them with a dab of thinned clear varnish or thin CA glue.'

Anyone have experience with this 'sealing'?  It kind of makes sense since verdigris is a chemical reaction, but I had never heard of it until reading Igrec's note.

1983?  Wurlitzer B. Grand #1720371-----  Been "CLP-ing"  hammer flanges each year for the past 10 years because customer didn't want to pay for re-pinning.  He's now ready to "bite the bullet" so-to-speak after too much frustration.  He is, however dithering over whether to repin the entire piano or only those problem keys (quite a few).   I can't remember who built this piano, or whether it is one known to have vertigris issues or not. Can anyone enlighten me?  

Also -- Having never re-pinned an entire set of hammer flanges, any suggestions for speeding the process to make it a bit more economical for him?  (I've re-pinned a few here and there as needed before, but never the entire set.)

Lastly-- how long should I allow for 88 hammer flanges? 

TIA--

Tim

------------------------------
Timothy Edwards
Beckley WV
(740) 517-7636
------------------------------

The flange isn't the problem, the shank is the part that's contaminated, that's where the bushings are.

That being said, I'm not sure it's cheaper to rebush them than to replace the entire shank and flange assembly unless you're working for minimum wage. 

Moreover, since the wippen flange and the jack pinning can also be affected by vertigris, it's important to carefully inspect everything. If the hammers are the same age as the action parts, then everything in that action is 100 years old and should be replaced anyway, that would also include the knuckles. So if all that stuff needs to be replaced, then rebushing the hammer shanks doesn't make much sense. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 11-23-2025 09:42
From: Larry Messerly
Subject: Vertigris?

Are new flanges really too expensive? Problem solved.

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292

Original Message:
Sent: 11-23-2025 07:10
From: Walter Bagnall
Subject: Vertigris?

Question for this older thread:

I am rebushing and repinning to correct a vertigris problem in an older S&S, and I have a question about sealing the wood.  Mario Igrec's "Pianos Inside Out' p 247 says 'A longterm solution for verdigris is to .. seal the wood around the bushings then rebush and repin them", then on the next page expands on this with 'If verdigris (green buildup) is visible on the bushings the wood may have been treated with a substance that will cause the verdigris to reappear, despite the new bushing.  To prevent that seal the holes by swabbing them with a dab of thinned clear varnish or thin CA glue.'

Anyone have experience with this 'sealing'?  It kind of makes sense since verdigris is a chemical reaction, but I had never heard of it until reading Igrec's note.

------------------------------
Walter Bagnall
Chillicothe OH

Original Message:
Sent: 04-17-2024 10:35
From: Timothy Edwards
Subject: Vertigris?

1983?  Wurlitzer B. Grand #1720371-----  Been "CLP-ing"  hammer flanges each year for the past 10 years because customer didn't want to pay for re-pinning.  He's now ready to "bite the bullet" so-to-speak after too much frustration.  He is, however dithering over whether to repin the entire piano or only those problem keys (quite a few).   I can't remember who built this piano, or whether it is one known to have vertigris issues or not. Can anyone enlighten me?  

Also -- Having never re-pinned an entire set of hammer flanges, any suggestions for speeding the process to make it a bit more economical for him?  (I've re-pinned a few here and there as needed before, but never the entire set.)

Lastly-- how long should I allow for 88 hammer flanges? 

TIA--

Tim

------------------------------
Timothy Edwards
Beckley WV
(740) 517-7636
------------------------------

David L,

While I mostly agree with everything you just said. I don't think we can assume that the flange was not treated with this mystery tallow whatever solution to decrease brittleness in the long term. Thus, the flange could possibly bleed out and migrate to the bushings that have been re-bushed..

It would certainly be less expensive to re-bush hammer shanks. Especially if the hammers are usable and one was just addressing vertigris to get things playing on a budget. However, there is the question of whether the problem will creep back from the flanges or shanks.

Bottom line is that parts replacement is the only surefire solution to vertigris. Though, I will try the Supply 88 product on some vertigris hammer shanks that I have.

Now, as to 100 year old parts. I have a 1917 original WNG action in my shop and the whips are in just phenomenal condition. So, there are exceptions to 100 yr wear and tear.

Now, lets have a big online political fight about this for the forum police (grin). JK! We all realize that the moderators are doing the best they can with dealing with any posts that stray or get political.  We do absolutely value our forum moderators! Pardon this last paragraph for straying off topic. I could not resist a poke, especially with David. (grin)

The flange isn't the problem, the shank is the part that's contaminated, that's where the bushings are.

That being said, I'm not sure it's cheaper to rebush them than to replace the entire shank and flange assembly unless you're working for minimum wage. 

Moreover, since the wippen flange and the jack pinning can also be affected by vertigris, it's important to carefully inspect everything. If the hammers are the same age as the action parts, then everything in that action is 100 years old and should be replaced anyway, that would also include the knuckles. So if all that stuff needs to be replaced, then rebushing the hammer shanks doesn't make much sense. 

Are new flanges really too expensive? Problem solved.

Question for this older thread:

I am rebushing and repinning to correct a vertigris problem in an older S&S, and I have a question about sealing the wood.  Mario Igrec's "Pianos Inside Out' p 247 says 'A longterm solution for verdigris is to .. seal the wood around the bushings then rebush and repin them", then on the next page expands on this with 'If verdigris (green buildup) is visible on the bushings the wood may have been treated with a substance that will cause the verdigris to reappear, despite the new bushing.  To prevent that seal the holes by swabbing them with a dab of thinned clear varnish or thin CA glue.'

Anyone have experience with this 'sealing'?  It kind of makes sense since verdigris is a chemical reaction, but I had never heard of it until reading Igrec's note.

1983?  Wurlitzer B. Grand #1720371-----  Been "CLP-ing"  hammer flanges each year for the past 10 years because customer didn't want to pay for re-pinning.  He's now ready to "bite the bullet" so-to-speak after too much frustration.  He is, however dithering over whether to repin the entire piano or only those problem keys (quite a few).   I can't remember who built this piano, or whether it is one known to have vertigris issues or not. Can anyone enlighten me?  

Also -- Having never re-pinned an entire set of hammer flanges, any suggestions for speeding the process to make it a bit more economical for him?  (I've re-pinned a few here and there as needed before, but never the entire set.)

Lastly-- how long should I allow for 88 hammer flanges? 

TIA--

Tim

------------------------------
Timothy Edwards
Beckley WV
(740) 517-7636
------------------------------

1983?  Wurlitzer B. Grand #1720371-----  Been "CLP-ing"  hammer flanges each year for the past 10 years because customer didn't want to pay for re-pinning.  He's now ready to "bite the bullet" so-to-speak after too much frustration.  He is, however dithering over whether to repin the entire piano or only those problem keys (quite a few).   I can't remember who built this piano, or whether it is one known to have vertigris issues or not. Can anyone enlighten me?  

Also -- Having never re-pinned an entire set of hammer flanges, any suggestions for speeding the process to make it a bit more economical for him?  (I've re-pinned a few here and there as needed before, but never the entire set.)

Lastly-- how long should I allow for 88 hammer flanges? 

TIA--

Tim

------------------------------
Timothy Edwards
Beckley WV
(740) 517-7636
------------------------------