Pianotech

I arrived at a customer's home expecting repairs on some sort of upright.  What I found was a 1960s Haines Brothers (Aeolian stencil) home console with the entire tenor and most of the bass section hammers coming unglued.  The staples were only decorative and didn't reach to the wood molding and the glue was obviously inadequate.

My rule on instruments like this is complete honesty.  The piano in this condition is a "leave it at the street" instument and was his ex-wife's pianos with no sentimental value.  I can attempt to re-glue the hammers, but the whole job, with the pitch raise tuning will exceed the value of the instrument and would still be questionable.

A comprable or slightly better instrument will cost him about $1500 to $2000 from a dealer.  A similar piano from the open market place will likely have similar problems.  New hammers will cost about $1000 plus regulation (and the pitch raise).

After careful consideration he opted for new hammers!

This might be fun... or a disaster...

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170
------------------------------

The piano is way beyond it's expected serviceable life. You can replace the hammers to get it working, only to find out the dampers are too hard, the sounding board has collapsed and the bridges are split and the case separating. Not to mention the old bass strings. Tuning pins will probably be getting loose too. Know when to say when.
Take the job only if you are desperate for money since he's willing to throw his money away.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Only $1k to replace hammers and regulate?  Wow, that's quite inexpensive. Or is it PLUS regulation, PLUS, etc.?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 07:58
From: Jon Page
Subject: What would you do?

The piano is way beyond it's expected serviceable life. You can replace the hammers to get it working, only to find out the dampers are too hard, the sounding board has collapsed and the bridges are split and the case separating. Not to mention the old bass strings. Tuning pins will probably be getting loose too. Know when to say when.
Take the job only if you are desperate for money since he's willing to throw his money away.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 5/19/2022 10:25:00 AM
From: Peter Grey
Subject: RE: What would you do?

Only $1k to replace hammers and regulate?  Wow, that's quite inexpensive. Or is it PLUS regulation, PLUS, etc.?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

I should be OK after all regulation and a pitch-raise tuning.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 10:24
From: Peter Grey
Subject: What would you do?

Only $1k to replace hammers and regulate?  Wow, that's quite inexpensive. Or is it PLUS regulation, PLUS, etc.?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 07:58
From: Jon Page
Subject: What would you do?

The piano is way beyond it's expected serviceable life. You can replace the hammers to get it working, only to find out the dampers are too hard, the sounding board has collapsed and the bridges are split and the case separating. Not to mention the old bass strings. Tuning pins will probably be getting loose too. Know when to say when.
Take the job only if you are desperate for money since he's willing to throw his money away.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

This piano was only lightly used and has many years left on it.  The finish is sun damaged, but aside from that it is OK.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 07:58
From: Jon Page
Subject: What would you do?

The piano is way beyond it's expected serviceable life. You can replace the hammers to get it working, only to find out the dampers are too hard, the sounding board has collapsed and the bridges are split and the case separating. Not to mention the old bass strings. Tuning pins will probably be getting loose too. Know when to say when.
Take the job only if you are desperate for money since he's willing to throw his money away.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Blaine,

What would I do? Probably exactly what you did, LOL. You were upfront and honest with him about the value of the instrument, the cost of the work, etc. As long as your bid was sufficient to cover your expenses (parts + labor), it was his decision to spend the money - I'd go for it. In cases like that, it's likely that he would hire someone to do it anyway; it might as well be you.  As a friend of mine here says, "we make our living from crazy people."

There is one thing I would add. I usually guarantee my work for a certain amount of time. The key word there is *my* work. I won't guarantee anything else about the piano. Make sure he understands you're just replacing the hammers, NOT rebuilding the piano. Maybe have him sign something to that effect. Take before and after pictures. These are more useful for selling future work, but I know of one technician who avoided a lawsuit because they took pictures - and they thought the person would be fine to work for initially. You just never know these days, unfortunately. 

Regardless of what happens, try to have fun on your adventure! And keep us informed as to how it goes. 

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
Piano Technician / Artisan
(256) 947-9999
www.professional-piano-services.com
------------------------------

I've been using the car comparison. "Would you put money into a 1960's-not highly respected model- car with all original parts including tires, brakes, etc?" That usually gives people some perspective of what they are up against and that just replacing the tires and brakes is only scratching the surface. 
I don't know how things are in your region but where I am it's pretty easy to find pianos under 20 years old for less than $1000. Again, pianos with more "milage" left in them.
And the Haines probably has a compressed action as well, harder to work on; does it have plastic damper flanges? What does the bass section sound like?

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 13:06
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: What would you do?

Blaine,

What would I do? Probably exactly what you did, LOL. You were upfront and honest with him about the value of the instrument, the cost of the work, etc. As long as your bid was sufficient to cover your expenses (parts + labor), it was his decision to spend the money - I'd go for it. In cases like that, it's likely that he would hire someone to do it anyway; it might as well be you.  As a friend of mine here says, "we make our living from crazy people."

There is one thing I would add. I usually guarantee my work for a certain amount of time. The key word there is *my* work. I won't guarantee anything else about the piano. Make sure he understands you're just replacing the hammers, NOT rebuilding the piano. Maybe have him sign something to that effect. Take before and after pictures. These are more useful for selling future work, but I know of one technician who avoided a lawsuit because they took pictures - and they thought the person would be fine to work for initially. You just never know these days, unfortunately. 

Regardless of what happens, try to have fun on your adventure! And keep us informed as to how it goes. 

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
Piano Technician / Artisan
(256) 947-9999
www.professional-piano-services.com
------------------------------

"I've been using the car comparison. "Would you put money into a 1960's-not highly respected model- car with all original parts including tires, brakes, etc?" That usually gives people some perspective of what they are up against and that just replacing the tires and brakes is only scratching the surface.
I don't know how things are in your region but where I am it's pretty easy to find pianos under 20 years old for less than $1000. Again, pianos with more "milage" left in them.
And the Haines probably has a compressed action as well, harder to work on; does it have plastic damper flanges? What does the bass section sound like?"

I regularly use the car comparison, in fact my usual estimate is that pianos age like cars times 10 (like dog years) and have a 100 year practical life.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 15:18
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: What would you do?

I've been using the car comparison. "Would you put money into a 1960's-not highly respected model- car with all original parts including tires, brakes, etc?" That usually gives people some perspective of what they are up against and that just replacing the tires and brakes is only scratching the surface.
I don't know how things are in your region but where I am it's pretty easy to find pianos under 20 years old for less than $1000. Again, pianos with more "milage" left in them.
And the Haines probably has a compressed action as well, harder to work on; does it have plastic damper flanges? What does the bass section sound like?

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 13:06
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: What would you do?

Blaine,

What would I do? Probably exactly what you did, LOL. You were upfront and honest with him about the value of the instrument, the cost of the work, etc. As long as your bid was sufficient to cover your expenses (parts + labor), it was his decision to spend the money - I'd go for it. In cases like that, it's likely that he would hire someone to do it anyway; it might as well be you.  As a friend of mine here says, "we make our living from crazy people."

There is one thing I would add. I usually guarantee my work for a certain amount of time. The key word there is *my* work. I won't guarantee anything else about the piano. Make sure he understands you're just replacing the hammers, NOT rebuilding the piano. Maybe have him sign something to that effect. Take before and after pictures. These are more useful for selling future work, but I know of one technician who avoided a lawsuit because they took pictures - and they thought the person would be fine to work for initially. You just never know these days, unfortunately. 

Regardless of what happens, try to have fun on your adventure! And keep us informed as to how it goes. 

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
Piano Technician / Artisan
(256) 947-9999
www.professional-piano-services.com

Blaine, if you're going to do it, use Ronsen Bacon felt. A long time ago, I did the same thing on a very old Winter spinet (delaminating hammers like your customer's), and it sounded much better than I imagined possible. As others noted, the dampers probably need to be done too.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine RPT
Billerica MA
(978) 663-9690
------------------------------

I will go with the cheapest prebored hammers I can get.  Efficiency will be my mode.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 15:22
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: What would you do?

Blaine, if you're going to do it, use Ronsen Bacon felt. A long time ago, I did the same thing on a very old Winter spinet (delaminating hammers like your customer's), and it sounded much better than I imagined possible. As others noted, the dampers probably need to be done too.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine RPT
Billerica MA
(978) 663-9690
------------------------------

Hello Blaine,
I have found pre bored upright hammer sets by Abel on Ebay for a very reasonable price ($125 per set).
Peter

------------------------------
Petrus Janssen
Peachtree City GA
(678) 416-8055
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 21:52
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: What would you do?

I will go with the cheapest prebored hammers I can get.  Efficiency will be my mode.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 15:22
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: What would you do?

Blaine, if you're going to do it, use Ronsen Bacon felt. A long time ago, I did the same thing on a very old Winter spinet (delaminating hammers like your customer's), and it sounded much better than I imagined possible. As others noted, the dampers probably need to be done too.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine RPT
Billerica MA
(978) 663-9690

Durn!  I wish I would have though of ebay.  I am just using what Schaff has.  Their price isn't that much higher.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 22:35
From: Petrus Janssen
Subject: What would you do?

Hello Blaine,
I have found pre bored upright hammer sets by Abel on Ebay for a very reasonable price ($125 per set).
Peter

------------------------------
Petrus Janssen
Peachtree City GA
(678) 416-8055
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 21:52
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: What would you do?

I will go with the cheapest prebored hammers I can get.  Efficiency will be my mode.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 15:22
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: What would you do?

Blaine, if you're going to do it, use Ronsen Bacon felt. A long time ago, I did the same thing on a very old Winter spinet (delaminating hammers like your customer's), and it sounded much better than I imagined possible. As others noted, the dampers probably need to be done too.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine RPT
Billerica MA
(978) 663-9690

A lot of those spinets have a very pronounced "tilt" in the hammer angle. I forget the proper nomenclature for the up and down angle relative to the hammer shank.
This job is going to be fraught.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 23:30
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: What would you do?

Durn!  I wish I would have though of ebay.  I am just using what Schaff has.  Their price isn't that much higher.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 22:35
From: Petrus Janssen
Subject: What would you do?

Hello Blaine,
I have found pre bored upright hammer sets by Abel on Ebay for a very reasonable price ($125 per set).
Peter

------------------------------
Petrus Janssen
Peachtree City GA
(678) 416-8055


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 21:52
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: What would you do?

I will go with the cheapest prebored hammers I can get.  Efficiency will be my mode.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 15:22
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: What would you do?

Blaine, if you're going to do it, use Ronsen Bacon felt. A long time ago, I did the same thing on a very old Winter spinet (delaminating hammers like your customer's), and it sounded much better than I imagined possible. As others noted, the dampers probably need to be done too.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine RPT
Billerica MA
(978) 663-9690

I am not a fan of strongly angled hammers.  My hypothesis is that the tilt creates a momentum imbalance that puts too much stress on the hammer flange.  Personally I would prefer a minimum of hammer angle, perhaps with some shaving of the hammer to clear neighboring strings.

If I can just get a highspeed camera to video hammer movement I would prove (or disprove) it.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 23:44
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: What would you do?

A lot of those spinets have a very pronounced "tilt" in the hammer angle. I forget the proper nomenclature for the up and down angle relative to the hammer shank.
This job is going to be fraught.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 23:30
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: What would you do?

Durn!  I wish I would have though of ebay.  I am just using what Schaff has.  Their price isn't that much higher.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 22:35
From: Petrus Janssen
Subject: What would you do?

Hello Blaine,
I have found pre bored upright hammer sets by Abel on Ebay for a very reasonable price ($125 per set).
Peter

------------------------------
Petrus Janssen
Peachtree City GA
(678) 416-8055


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 21:52
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: What would you do?

I will go with the cheapest prebored hammers I can get.  Efficiency will be my mode.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 15:22
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: What would you do?

Blaine, if you're going to do it, use Ronsen Bacon felt. A long time ago, I did the same thing on a very old Winter spinet (delaminating hammers like your customer's), and it sounded much better than I imagined possible. As others noted, the dampers probably need to be done too.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine RPT
Billerica MA
(978) 663-9690

Blaine, I'm sorry I'm not clear, I still can't remember the right word-gettin old. I don't mean the angle relative to the strings (right or left) but the angle relative to the plane of the strings, usually somewhat less than 90º relative to the shank, to establish the strike point. That angle can be quite acute on small pianos and there's not much one can do about it. I brought this up because it can be problematic with generically bored hammer sets.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-20-2022 20:44
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: What would you do?

I am not a fan of strongly angled hammers.  My hypothesis is that the tilt creates a momentum imbalance that puts too much stress on the hammer flange.  Personally I would prefer a minimum of hammer angle, perhaps with some shaving of the hammer to clear neighboring strings.

If I can just get a highspeed camera to video hammer movement I would prove (or disprove) it.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 23:44
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: What would you do?

A lot of those spinets have a very pronounced "tilt" in the hammer angle. I forget the proper nomenclature for the up and down angle relative to the hammer shank.
This job is going to be fraught.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 23:30
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: What would you do?

Durn!  I wish I would have though of ebay.  I am just using what Schaff has.  Their price isn't that much higher.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 22:35
From: Petrus Janssen
Subject: What would you do?

Hello Blaine,
I have found pre bored upright hammer sets by Abel on Ebay for a very reasonable price ($125 per set).
Peter

------------------------------
Petrus Janssen
Peachtree City GA
(678) 416-8055


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 21:52
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: What would you do?

I will go with the cheapest prebored hammers I can get.  Efficiency will be my mode.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 15:22
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: What would you do?

Blaine, if you're going to do it, use Ronsen Bacon felt. A long time ago, I did the same thing on a very old Winter spinet (delaminating hammers like your customer's), and it sounded much better than I imagined possible. As others noted, the dampers probably need to be done too.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine RPT
Billerica MA
(978) 663-9690

What would I do? I'd fix it "country tuner" style. lol
https://youtu.be/dQxp0UVOBGw

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 16:45
From: Wim Blees
Subject: What would you do?

"was his ex-wife's pianos with no sentimental value"

Considering he opted to go with new hammers and tuning, sounds to me like he still has feelings for his ex-wife with a LOT of sentimental value. 

Wim

The referral to that hammer tying video was worth my post!

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 16:58
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: What would you do?

What would I do? I'd fix it "country tuner" style. lol
https://youtu.be/dQxp0UVOBGw

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 16:45
From: Wim Blees
Subject: What would you do?

"was his ex-wife's pianos with no sentimental value"

Considering he opted to go with new hammers and tuning, sounds to me like he still has feelings for his ex-wife with a LOT of sentimental value. 

Wim

Yay! 😊

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 22:32
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: What would you do?

The referral to that hammer tying video was worth my post!

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 16:58
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: What would you do?

What would I do? I'd fix it "country tuner" style. lol
https://youtu.be/dQxp0UVOBGw

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 16:45
From: Wim Blees
Subject: What would you do?

"was his ex-wife's pianos with no sentimental value"

Considering he opted to go with new hammers and tuning, sounds to me like he still has feelings for his ex-wife with a LOT of sentimental value. 

Wim

I just learned something new.  Thank you so much.  Could you do a demo on how to make the slip knot?

------------------------------
Patrick Greene
OWNER
Knoxville TN
(865) 384-6582
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-20-2022 00:29
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: What would you do?

Yay! 😊

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 22:32
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: What would you do?

The referral to that hammer tying video was worth my post!

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 16:58
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: What would you do?

What would I do? I'd fix it "country tuner" style. lol
https://youtu.be/dQxp0UVOBGw

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 16:45
From: Wim Blees
Subject: What would you do?

"was his ex-wife's pianos with no sentimental value"

Considering he opted to go with new hammers and tuning, sounds to me like he still has feelings for his ex-wife with a LOT of sentimental value. 

Wim

Original Message:
Sent: 5/19/2022 4:59:00 PM
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: RE: What would you do?

What would I do? I'd fix it "country tuner" style. lol
https://youtu.be/dQxp0UVOBGw

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 5/19/2022 4:59:00 PM
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: RE: What would you do?

What would I do? I'd fix it "country tuner" style. lol
https://youtu.be/dQxp0UVOBGw

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net
------------------------------

Loren - Thanks! This is what I do for those pianos that people want but don't want a big expense. I've only done this with one entire piano. Most of the time it is less than half the keys.

Victor - Are you talking about a square knot or something else? If something else, I'm very interested in understanding. I use a square knot now & it can slip right at the first part of tying it because I have trouble holding the first part without a third hand. I can usually hold it with a fingernail but sometimes fail. After the square knot is completed, it won't slip. Thanks! 

Blaine - Sorry for bombing your thread (no pun intended). If you want us to take this privately I'll switch. Thanks!

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-20-2022 08:04
From: Victor Belanger
Subject: What would you do?

Maggie,

Great video and I like your method. A little tip for the thread when making a knot, tie the knot going on the left side , then the next turn of the loop tie it the right side  and they should not slip. I went sailing once and my colleague mentioned that. I had no idea it was that simple to do and to make it work.

Thanks for sharing. Need to get me one of those pair of vice grips. Mine are way too old and flimsy.

Victor Belanger RPT

Belmont, MA

"What would I do? I'd fix it "country tuner" style. lol
youtu.be/dQxp0UVOBGw

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net
---------------|"

Original Message:
Sent: 5/19/2022 4:59:00 PM
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: RE: What would you do?

What would I do? I'd fix it "country tuner" style. lol
https://youtu.be/dQxp0UVOBGw

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 16:45
From: Wim Blees
Subject: What would you do?

"was his ex-wife's pianos with no sentimental value"

Considering he opted to go with new hammers and tuning, sounds to me like he still has feelings for his ex-wife with a LOT of sentimental value. 

Wim

Maggie, use a pair of tweezers to create the knot as a doctor does. Instead of just one loop, you can create 2 to 3 loops with the turn of the wrist.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-20-2022 10:04
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: What would you do?

Loren - Thanks! This is what I do for those pianos that people want but don't want a big expense. I've only done this with one entire piano. Most of the time it is less than half the keys.

Victor - Are you talking about a square knot or something else? If something else, I'm very interested in understanding. I use a square knot now & it can slip right at the first part of tying it because I have trouble holding the first part without a third hand. I can usually hold it with a fingernail but sometimes fail. After the square knot is completed, it won't slip. Thanks!

Blaine - Sorry for bombing your thread (no pun intended). If you want us to take this privately I'll switch. Thanks!

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-20-2022 08:04
From: Victor Belanger
Subject: What would you do?

Maggie,

Great video and I like your method. A little tip for the thread when making a knot, tie the knot going on the left side , then the next turn of the loop tie it the right side  and they should not slip. I went sailing once and my colleague mentioned that. I had no idea it was that simple to do and to make it work.

Thanks for sharing. Need to get me one of those pair of vice grips. Mine are way too old and flimsy.

Victor Belanger RPT

Belmont, MA

"What would I do? I'd fix it "country tuner" style. lol
youtu.be/dQxp0UVOBGw

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net
---------------|"

Original Message:
Sent: 5/19/2022 4:59:00 PM
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: RE: What would you do?

What would I do? I'd fix it "country tuner" style. lol
https://youtu.be/dQxp0UVOBGw

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 16:45
From: Wim Blees
Subject: What would you do?

"was his ex-wife's pianos with no sentimental value"

Considering he opted to go with new hammers and tuning, sounds to me like he still has feelings for his ex-wife with a LOT of sentimental value. 

Wim

A trick I use is to make two turns on the first part of a knot, this holds the tension better while you create the second turn.  This results in something other than a square knot, but a thrir turn constitutes a square knot (I will consult my knot expert on this).

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-20-2022 10:24
From: Jon Page
Subject: What would you do?

Maggie, use a pair of tweezers to create the knot as a doctor does. Instead of just one loop, you can create 2 to 3 loops with the turn of the wrist.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-20-2022 10:04
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: What would you do?

Loren - Thanks! This is what I do for those pianos that people want but don't want a big expense. I've only done this with one entire piano. Most of the time it is less than half the keys.

Victor - Are you talking about a square knot or something else? If something else, I'm very interested in understanding. I use a square knot now & it can slip right at the first part of tying it because I have trouble holding the first part without a third hand. I can usually hold it with a fingernail but sometimes fail. After the square knot is completed, it won't slip. Thanks!

Blaine - Sorry for bombing your thread (no pun intended). If you want us to take this privately I'll switch. Thanks!

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net


Original Message:
Sent: 05-20-2022 08:04
From: Victor Belanger
Subject: What would you do?

Maggie,

Great video and I like your method. A little tip for the thread when making a knot, tie the knot going on the left side , then the next turn of the loop tie it the right side  and they should not slip. I went sailing once and my colleague mentioned that. I had no idea it was that simple to do and to make it work.

Thanks for sharing. Need to get me one of those pair of vice grips. Mine are way too old and flimsy.

Victor Belanger RPT

Belmont, MA

"What would I do? I'd fix it "country tuner" style. lol
youtu.be/dQxp0UVOBGw

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net
---------------|"

Original Message:
Sent: 5/19/2022 4:59:00 PM
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: RE: What would you do?

What would I do? I'd fix it "country tuner" style. lol
https://youtu.be/dQxp0UVOBGw

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 16:45
From: Wim Blees
Subject: What would you do?

"was his ex-wife's pianos with no sentimental value"

Considering he opted to go with new hammers and tuning, sounds to me like he still has feelings for his ex-wife with a LOT of sentimental value. 

Wim

I consulted with my knot expert (http://www.theknotguy.com):
"

A knot with two opposing loops sounds like a typical shoelace knot, which technically is a double slippery square knot. Her initial knot is a Lark's Head (Tete d'Alouette) or Cow Hitch. It is an (obviously) acceptable way of tying the start of a wraparound tie like this. If that method were to be continued (using a Cow Hitch to begin) I would suggest using a Surgeon's Knot to finish, rather than the Square Knot. A Surgeon's Knot has, instead of one pass under the opposing thread, two passes under the opposing thread. With that doubled crossing pulled taut, you then can tie the second part of the Knot by finishing in the same way the Square Knot is finished without slippage, and there would be no need (other than for the tyer's peace-of-mind, perhaps) to tie multiple Square Knots. As a Knot-Tyer, I would try using a Constrictor Hitch, without the need for the Lark's Head, pulling each end tight with a Marlinespike Hitch around a bamboo chopstick. The Constrictor Hitch combines the attributes of the overhand knot with which the Square Knot is started, with a Cleat Hitch or Clove Hitch (same hitch, different name) to derive a hitch that will resist all attempts to undo it, short of actually cutting it loose."

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-20-2022 10:24
From: Jon Page
Subject: What would you do?

Maggie, use a pair of tweezers to create the knot as a doctor does. Instead of just one loop, you can create 2 to 3 loops with the turn of the wrist.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-20-2022 10:04
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: What would you do?

Loren - Thanks! This is what I do for those pianos that people want but don't want a big expense. I've only done this with one entire piano. Most of the time it is less than half the keys.

Victor - Are you talking about a square knot or something else? If something else, I'm very interested in understanding. I use a square knot now & it can slip right at the first part of tying it because I have trouble holding the first part without a third hand. I can usually hold it with a fingernail but sometimes fail. After the square knot is completed, it won't slip. Thanks!

Blaine - Sorry for bombing your thread (no pun intended). If you want us to take this privately I'll switch. Thanks!

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net


Original Message:
Sent: 05-20-2022 08:04
From: Victor Belanger
Subject: What would you do?

Maggie,

Great video and I like your method. A little tip for the thread when making a knot, tie the knot going on the left side , then the next turn of the loop tie it the right side  and they should not slip. I went sailing once and my colleague mentioned that. I had no idea it was that simple to do and to make it work.

Thanks for sharing. Need to get me one of those pair of vice grips. Mine are way too old and flimsy.

Victor Belanger RPT

Belmont, MA

"What would I do? I'd fix it "country tuner" style. lol
youtu.be/dQxp0UVOBGw

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net
---------------|"

Original Message:
Sent: 5/19/2022 4:59:00 PM
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: RE: What would you do?

What would I do? I'd fix it "country tuner" style. lol
https://youtu.be/dQxp0UVOBGw

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 16:45
From: Wim Blees
Subject: What would you do?

"was his ex-wife's pianos with no sentimental value"

Considering he opted to go with new hammers and tuning, sounds to me like he still has feelings for his ex-wife with a LOT of sentimental value. 

Wim

Hi Maggie,

No, just a straight ahead knot (not sure what the name is); Overhand knot maybe? One of the overhand is on one side, then the other overhand in the reverse direction. I hope that makes sense.
Square knot looks interesting too.

Victor Belanger RPT
Belmont, MA

------------------------------
Victor Belanger
Belmont, MA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-20-2022 10:04
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: What would you do?

Loren - Thanks! This is what I do for those pianos that people want but don't want a big expense. I've only done this with one entire piano. Most of the time it is less than half the keys.

Victor - Are you talking about a square knot or something else? If something else, I'm very interested in understanding. I use a square knot now & it can slip right at the first part of tying it because I have trouble holding the first part without a third hand. I can usually hold it with a fingernail but sometimes fail. After the square knot is completed, it won't slip. Thanks!

Blaine - Sorry for bombing your thread (no pun intended). If you want us to take this privately I'll switch. Thanks!

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-20-2022 08:04
From: Victor Belanger
Subject: What would you do?

Maggie,

Great video and I like your method. A little tip for the thread when making a knot, tie the knot going on the left side , then the next turn of the loop tie it the right side  and they should not slip. I went sailing once and my colleague mentioned that. I had no idea it was that simple to do and to make it work.

Thanks for sharing. Need to get me one of those pair of vice grips. Mine are way too old and flimsy.

Victor Belanger RPT

Belmont, MA

"What would I do? I'd fix it "country tuner" style. lol
youtu.be/dQxp0UVOBGw

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net
---------------|"

Original Message:
Sent: 5/19/2022 4:59:00 PM
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: RE: What would you do?

What would I do? I'd fix it "country tuner" style. lol
https://youtu.be/dQxp0UVOBGw

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 16:45
From: Wim Blees
Subject: What would you do?

"was his ex-wife's pianos with no sentimental value"

Considering he opted to go with new hammers and tuning, sounds to me like he still has feelings for his ex-wife with a LOT of sentimental value. 

Wim

Victor,
That is a correct square knot; you had it right.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-20-2022 11:24
From: Victor Belanger
Subject: What would you do?

Hi Maggie,

No, just a straight ahead knot (not sure what the name is); Overhand knot maybe? One of the overhand is on one side, then the other overhand in the reverse direction. I hope that makes sense.
Square knot looks interesting too.

Victor Belanger RPT
Belmont, MA

------------------------------
Victor Belanger
Belmont, MA
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-20-2022 10:04
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: What would you do?

Loren - Thanks! This is what I do for those pianos that people want but don't want a big expense. I've only done this with one entire piano. Most of the time it is less than half the keys.

Victor - Are you talking about a square knot or something else? If something else, I'm very interested in understanding. I use a square knot now & it can slip right at the first part of tying it because I have trouble holding the first part without a third hand. I can usually hold it with a fingernail but sometimes fail. After the square knot is completed, it won't slip. Thanks!

Blaine - Sorry for bombing your thread (no pun intended). If you want us to take this privately I'll switch. Thanks!

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net


Original Message:
Sent: 05-20-2022 08:04
From: Victor Belanger
Subject: What would you do?

Maggie,

Great video and I like your method. A little tip for the thread when making a knot, tie the knot going on the left side , then the next turn of the loop tie it the right side  and they should not slip. I went sailing once and my colleague mentioned that. I had no idea it was that simple to do and to make it work.

Thanks for sharing. Need to get me one of those pair of vice grips. Mine are way too old and flimsy.

Victor Belanger RPT

Belmont, MA

"What would I do? I'd fix it "country tuner" style. lol
youtu.be/dQxp0UVOBGw

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net
---------------|"

Original Message:
Sent: 5/19/2022 4:59:00 PM
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: RE: What would you do?

What would I do? I'd fix it "country tuner" style. lol
https://youtu.be/dQxp0UVOBGw

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 16:45
From: Wim Blees
Subject: What would you do?

"was his ex-wife's pianos with no sentimental value"

Considering he opted to go with new hammers and tuning, sounds to me like he still has feelings for his ex-wife with a LOT of sentimental value. 

Wim

Thanks for the great video, Maggie. So much better approach than I"ve been using. It's tips and presentations like this that make PTG membership so valuable.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 16:58
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: What would you do?

What would I do? I'd fix it "country tuner" style. lol
https://youtu.be/dQxp0UVOBGw

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 16:45
From: Wim Blees
Subject: What would you do?

"was his ex-wife's pianos with no sentimental value"

Considering he opted to go with new hammers and tuning, sounds to me like he still has feelings for his ex-wife with a LOT of sentimental value. 

Wim

Original Message:
Sent: 5/19/2022 4:59:00 PM
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: RE: What would you do?

What would I do? I'd fix it "country tuner" style. lol
https://youtu.be/dQxp0UVOBGw

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net
------------------------------

Maybe if he knew that the piano would still have a value much lower than the amount he's putting into it; he might change his mind.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 16:45
From: Wim Blees
Subject: What would you do?

"was his ex-wife's pianos with no sentimental value"

Considering he opted to go with new hammers and tuning, sounds to me like he still has feelings for his ex-wife with a LOT of sentimental value. 

Wim

Original Message:
Sent: 5/19/2022 5:25:00 PM
From: Jon Page
Subject: RE: What would you do?

Maybe if he knew that the piano would still have a value much lower than the amount he's putting into it; he might change his mind.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

In other words... he can spend $1500.00 fixing it up and it will still only be worth $200.00

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 17:25
From: Jon Page
Subject: What would you do?

Maybe if he knew that the piano would still have a value much lower than the amount he's putting into it; he might change his mind.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 16:45
From: Wim Blees
Subject: What would you do?

"was his ex-wife's pianos with no sentimental value"

Considering he opted to go with new hammers and tuning, sounds to me like he still has feelings for his ex-wife with a LOT of sentimental value. 

Wim

Don't do it, take the high road.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 20:35
From: Jon Page
Subject: What would you do?

In other words... he can spend $1500.00 fixing it up and it will still only be worth $200.00

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 17:25
From: Jon Page
Subject: What would you do?

Maybe if he knew that the piano would still have a value much lower than the amount he's putting into it; he might change his mind.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 16:45
From: Wim Blees
Subject: What would you do?

"was his ex-wife's pianos with no sentimental value"

Considering he opted to go with new hammers and tuning, sounds to me like he still has feelings for his ex-wife with a LOT of sentimental value. 

Wim

Why not Jon? If the customer wants it.

I tune plenty of pianos where the cost of the tuning is higher than the value of the piano. Should I refuse to tune them?

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 20:36
From: Jon Page
Subject: What would you do?

Don't do it, take the high road.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 20:35
From: Jon Page
Subject: What would you do?

In other words... he can spend $1500.00 fixing it up and it will still only be worth $200.00

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 17:25
From: Jon Page
Subject: What would you do?

Maybe if he knew that the piano would still have a value much lower than the amount he's putting into it; he might change his mind.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 16:45
From: Wim Blees
Subject: What would you do?

"was his ex-wife's pianos with no sentimental value"

Considering he opted to go with new hammers and tuning, sounds to me like he still has feelings for his ex-wife with a LOT of sentimental value. 

Wim

I agree with Larry. Our job is to serve in any way that's moral and legal, not to manage our client's financial decisions for them.

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
Piano Technician / Artisan
(256) 947-9999
www.professional-piano-services.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 21:31
From: Larry Messerly
Subject: What would you do?

Why not Jon? If the customer wants it.

I tune plenty of pianos where the cost of the tuning is higher than the value of the piano. Should I refuse to tune them?

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 20:36
From: Jon Page
Subject: What would you do?

Don't do it, take the high road.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 20:35
From: Jon Page
Subject: What would you do?

In other words... he can spend $1500.00 fixing it up and it will still only be worth $200.00

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 17:25
From: Jon Page
Subject: What would you do?

Maybe if he knew that the piano would still have a value much lower than the amount he's putting into it; he might change his mind.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 16:45
From: Wim Blees
Subject: What would you do?

"was his ex-wife's pianos with no sentimental value"

Considering he opted to go with new hammers and tuning, sounds to me like he still has feelings for his ex-wife with a LOT of sentimental value. 

Wim

"Our job is to serve in any way that's moral and legal, not to manage our client's financial decisions for them."

Hmmm….
I think they are often intertwined. In most cases, we are the guardrail, the absolute last chance at objectivity.
No one else will fill that role. Theoretically a piano teacher could, but they seldom know enough about the market or the innards of the instrument.

I have condemned pianos and found much better instruments for many of my customers. It can be a revelation for them. When that happens, they totally forget about that previous piece of junk. Examples abound. One family was desperate to keep a clunker going and I made constant trips over fixing this and that. We found a used U3 for a good price-trust me, they have no intention of going back.

People don't know how much happier they will be with a decent instrument because they have no point of comparison. 

------------------------------
Scott Cole, RPT
rvpianotuner.com
Talent, OR
(541-601-9033
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 21:44
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: What would you do?

I agree with Larry. Our job is to serve in any way that's moral and legal, not to manage our client's financial decisions for them.

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
Piano Technician / Artisan
(256) 947-9999
www.professional-piano-services.com
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 21:31
From: Larry Messerly
Subject: What would you do?

Why not Jon? If the customer wants it.

I tune plenty of pianos where the cost of the tuning is higher than the value of the piano. Should I refuse to tune them?

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 20:36
From: Jon Page
Subject: What would you do?

Don't do it, take the high road.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 20:35
From: Jon Page
Subject: What would you do?

In other words... he can spend $1500.00 fixing it up and it will still only be worth $200.00

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 17:25
From: Jon Page
Subject: What would you do?

Maybe if he knew that the piano would still have a value much lower than the amount he's putting into it; he might change his mind.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 16:45
From: Wim Blees
Subject: What would you do?

"was his ex-wife's pianos with no sentimental value"

Considering he opted to go with new hammers and tuning, sounds to me like he still has feelings for his ex-wife with a LOT of sentimental value. 

Wim

I agree with Larry & Scott, both. For some, a better piano isn't an option or they don't even play but want the instrument for sentimental reasons. For others, I believe what Scott said is an issue: "People don't know how much happier they will be with a decent instrument because they have no point of comparison." So yes, intertwined. Each case is unique & should be handled with care. 

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-20-2022 09:58
From: Scott Cole
Subject: What would you do?

"Our job is to serve in any way that's moral and legal, not to manage our client's financial decisions for them."

Hmmm….
I think they are often intertwined. In most cases, we are the guardrail, the absolute last chance at objectivity.
No one else will fill that role. Theoretically a piano teacher could, but they seldom know enough about the market or the innards of the instrument.

I have condemned pianos and found much better instruments for many of my customers. It can be a revelation for them. When that happens, they totally forget about that previous piece of junk. Examples abound. One family was desperate to keep a clunker going and I made constant trips over fixing this and that. We found a used U3 for a good price-trust me, they have no intention of going back.

People don't know how much happier they will be with a decent instrument because they have no point of comparison. 

------------------------------
Scott Cole, RPT
rvpianotuner.com
Talent, OR
(541-601-9033
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 21:44
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: What would you do?

I agree with Larry. Our job is to serve in any way that's moral and legal, not to manage our client's financial decisions for them.

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
Piano Technician / Artisan
(256) 947-9999
www.professional-piano-services.com


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 21:31
From: Larry Messerly
Subject: What would you do?

Why not Jon? If the customer wants it.

I tune plenty of pianos where the cost of the tuning is higher than the value of the piano. Should I refuse to tune them?

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 20:36
From: Jon Page
Subject: What would you do?

Don't do it, take the high road.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 20:35
From: Jon Page
Subject: What would you do?

In other words... he can spend $1500.00 fixing it up and it will still only be worth $200.00

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 17:25
From: Jon Page
Subject: What would you do?

Maybe if he knew that the piano would still have a value much lower than the amount he's putting into it; he might change his mind.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 16:45
From: Wim Blees
Subject: What would you do?

"was his ex-wife's pianos with no sentimental value"

Considering he opted to go with new hammers and tuning, sounds to me like he still has feelings for his ex-wife with a LOT of sentimental value. 

Wim

Original Message:
Sent: 5/20/2022 9:58:00 AM
From: Scott Cole
Subject: RE: What would you do?

"Our job is to serve in any way that's moral and legal, not to manage our client's financial decisions for them."

Hmmm….
I think they are often intertwined. In most cases, we are the guardrail, the absolute last chance at objectivity.
No one else will fill that role. Theoretically a piano teacher could, but they seldom know enough about the market or the innards of the instrument.

I have condemned pianos and found much better instruments for many of my customers. It can be a revelation for them. When that happens, they totally forget about that previous piece of junk. Examples abound. One family was desperate to keep a clunker going and I made constant trips over fixing this and that. We found a used U3 for a good price-trust me, they have no intention of going back.

People don't know how much happier they will be with a decent instrument because they have no point of comparison. 

------------------------------
Scott Cole, RPT
rvpianotuner.com
Talent, OR
(541-601-9033
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 21:44
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: What would you do?

I agree with Larry. Our job is to serve in any way that's moral and legal, not to manage our client's financial decisions for them.

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
Piano Technician / Artisan
(256) 947-9999
www.professional-piano-services.com
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 21:31
From: Larry Messerly
Subject: What would you do?

Why not Jon? If the customer wants it.

I tune plenty of pianos where the cost of the tuning is higher than the value of the piano. Should I refuse to tune them?

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 20:36
From: Jon Page
Subject: What would you do?

Don't do it, take the high road.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 20:35
From: Jon Page
Subject: What would you do?

In other words... he can spend $1500.00 fixing it up and it will still only be worth $200.00

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 17:25
From: Jon Page
Subject: What would you do?

Maybe if he knew that the piano would still have a value much lower than the amount he's putting into it; he might change his mind.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Fortunately, I'm in a position where I do not have to tune verticals and small grands.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 21:31
From: Larry Messerly
Subject: What would you do?

Why not Jon? If the customer wants it.

I tune plenty of pianos where the cost of the tuning is higher than the value of the piano. Should I refuse to tune them?

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 20:36
From: Jon Page
Subject: What would you do?

Don't do it, take the high road.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 20:35
From: Jon Page
Subject: What would you do?

In other words... he can spend $1500.00 fixing it up and it will still only be worth $200.00

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 17:25
From: Jon Page
Subject: What would you do?

Maybe if he knew that the piano would still have a value much lower than the amount he's putting into it; he might change his mind.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 16:45
From: Wim Blees
Subject: What would you do?

"was his ex-wife's pianos with no sentimental value"

Considering he opted to go with new hammers and tuning, sounds to me like he still has feelings for his ex-wife with a LOT of sentimental value. 

Wim

Yep.  I was quite, quite clear about this.

But when I am finished he will have a functional piano and he won't have to spend $400 for disposal, $200 for moving another piano in, time shopping for another piano, worries that the next piano will have more problems and he might still have to pay $1000 to $2000 for a piano (from a dealer).

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 20:35
From: Jon Page
Subject: What would you do?

In other words... he can spend $1500.00 fixing it up and it will still only be worth $200.00

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 17:25
From: Jon Page
Subject: What would you do?

Maybe if he knew that the piano would still have a value much lower than the amount he's putting into it; he might change his mind.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 16:45
From: Wim Blees
Subject: What would you do?

"was his ex-wife's pianos with no sentimental value"

Considering he opted to go with new hammers and tuning, sounds to me like he still has feelings for his ex-wife with a LOT of sentimental value. 

Wim

Actually this is a satillite engineer (a rocket scientist) who didn't want to contribute another piano to the dump before its time in respect for the Earth.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 16:45
From: Wim Blees
Subject: What would you do?

"was his ex-wife's pianos with no sentimental value"

Considering he opted to go with new hammers and tuning, sounds to me like he still has feelings for his ex-wife with a LOT of sentimental value. 

Wim

Once you touch it you will own it. This sounds like a 60 year old piano that should be retired from service. Its not clear what you mean by new hammers such as popping off the hammer heads and keeping the hammer/shanks/flanges . I did a job like this a few years ago on a very nice Baldwin studio owned by a nurse who relocated from Virginia. She had shipped the piano here and her fiancee stored it in a hallway with no air conditioning and air flow. The house was out in the country in the middle of a field cooking in the sun. Bottom line EVERY HAMMER HEAD had peeled like a banana and most of the flanges had seized up from the humidity. I put all new hammers, shanks,flanges hammer felts on . I believe I used Abels from Brooks and I glued the heads on at the piano making spacing and travelling easier. The cost was certainly justified since the piano was basically brand new and was a $7-$8 k instrument/

The job may or may not go well and it could end up being the piano from hell as well as the customer from hell. Know what his expectation is ahead of time and exactly what you are doing . You cant make this instrument into a prince. The other issue is how did the hammers get unravelled ? was it humidity ? exposure to lots of moisture from flooding or burst pipe ? Staples are often present more for decoration and do nothing to hold the hammer on the wood.

Beware - this could be a "lunch eater"

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
(843) 325-4357
------------------------------

Beware - this could be a "lunch eater"

Yes, I might lose a lunch on this, but we might lose our shirts everytime we touch any piano... thats the job.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 19:10
From: James Kelly
Subject: What would you do?

Once you touch it you will own it. This sounds like a 60 year old piano that should be retired from service. Its not clear what you mean by new hammers such as popping off the hammer heads and keeping the hammer/shanks/flanges . I did a job like this a few years ago on a very nice Baldwin studio owned by a nurse who relocated from Virginia. She had shipped the piano here and her fiancee stored it in a hallway with no air conditioning and air flow. The house was out in the country in the middle of a field cooking in the sun. Bottom line EVERY HAMMER HEAD had peeled like a banana and most of the flanges had seized up from the humidity. I put all new hammers, shanks,flanges hammer felts on . I believe I used Abels from Brooks and I glued the heads on at the piano making spacing and travelling easier. The cost was certainly justified since the piano was basically brand new and was a $7-$8 k instrument/

The job may or may not go well and it could end up being the piano from hell as well as the customer from hell. Know what his expectation is ahead of time and exactly what you are doing . You cant make this instrument into a prince. The other issue is how did the hammers get unravelled ? was it humidity ? exposure to lots of moisture from flooding or burst pipe ? Staples are often present more for decoration and do nothing to hold the hammer on the wood.

Beware - this could be a "lunch eater"

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
(843) 325-4357
------------------------------

I agree with Jon. Tossing this piano would not be "before its time", in fact it's probably been non operational for 20 years. 
Blaine, if you do put on a new set of hammers, remember that it is more difficult (more labor) to hang a set of hammers with distorted or missing hammer felts, probably helpful to do it in the piano. Hopefully this is a direct blow action.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 22:34
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: What would you do?

Beware - this could be a "lunch eater"

Yes, I might lose a lunch on this, but we might lose our shirts everytime we touch any piano... thats the job.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 19:10
From: James Kelly
Subject: What would you do?

Once you touch it you will own it. This sounds like a 60 year old piano that should be retired from service. Its not clear what you mean by new hammers such as popping off the hammer heads and keeping the hammer/shanks/flanges . I did a job like this a few years ago on a very nice Baldwin studio owned by a nurse who relocated from Virginia. She had shipped the piano here and her fiancee stored it in a hallway with no air conditioning and air flow. The house was out in the country in the middle of a field cooking in the sun. Bottom line EVERY HAMMER HEAD had peeled like a banana and most of the flanges had seized up from the humidity. I put all new hammers, shanks,flanges hammer felts on . I believe I used Abels from Brooks and I glued the heads on at the piano making spacing and travelling easier. The cost was certainly justified since the piano was basically brand new and was a $7-$8 k instrument/

The job may or may not go well and it could end up being the piano from hell as well as the customer from hell. Know what his expectation is ahead of time and exactly what you are doing . You cant make this instrument into a prince. The other issue is how did the hammers get unravelled ? was it humidity ? exposure to lots of moisture from flooding or burst pipe ? Staples are often present more for decoration and do nothing to hold the hammer on the wood.

Beware - this could be a "lunch eater"

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
(843) 325-4357

I agree that there are advantages to installing hammers in the piano, but in my shop I have access to my drill press, belt sander, band saw, tea kettle, etc..

I don't like "hating" anything, but I am learning to avoid praising spinets!

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 23:21
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: What would you do?

I agree with Jon. Tossing this piano would not be "before its time", in fact it's probably been non operational for 20 years.
Blaine, if you do put on a new set of hammers, remember that it is more difficult (more labor) to hang a set of hammers with distorted or missing hammer felts, probably helpful to do it in the piano. Hopefully this is a direct blow action.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 22:34
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: What would you do?

Beware - this could be a "lunch eater"

Yes, I might lose a lunch on this, but we might lose our shirts everytime we touch any piano... thats the job.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170


Original Message:
Sent: 05-19-2022 19:10
From: James Kelly
Subject: What would you do?

Once you touch it you will own it. This sounds like a 60 year old piano that should be retired from service. Its not clear what you mean by new hammers such as popping off the hammer heads and keeping the hammer/shanks/flanges . I did a job like this a few years ago on a very nice Baldwin studio owned by a nurse who relocated from Virginia. She had shipped the piano here and her fiancee stored it in a hallway with no air conditioning and air flow. The house was out in the country in the middle of a field cooking in the sun. Bottom line EVERY HAMMER HEAD had peeled like a banana and most of the flanges had seized up from the humidity. I put all new hammers, shanks,flanges hammer felts on . I believe I used Abels from Brooks and I glued the heads on at the piano making spacing and travelling easier. The cost was certainly justified since the piano was basically brand new and was a $7-$8 k instrument/

The job may or may not go well and it could end up being the piano from hell as well as the customer from hell. Know what his expectation is ahead of time and exactly what you are doing . You cant make this instrument into a prince. The other issue is how did the hammers get unravelled ? was it humidity ? exposure to lots of moisture from flooding or burst pipe ? Staples are often present more for decoration and do nothing to hold the hammer on the wood.

Beware - this could be a "lunch eater"

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
(843) 325-4357

Personally, I would walk away telling them it's not worth pursuing and advise them on replacement. $1000 for a hammer job is low where I'm from and the quality of the outcome is likely more than just hammers.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Remember that the thread is titled "What would you do?"  Not  "tell me what I should do". Many registered what THEY would do, which is exactly what Blaine asked. 

Personally, I would do as Blaine is doing as long as I'm getting paid for it and the client understands the whole situation. 

What I have learned over the years is that people will put money into things they care about (for whatever reason), but if they don't care about it, they won't. Learned this over and over again  sometimes to the tune of many thousands of dollars. If they detect that we are willing to care about what they care about...we get to share the joy of caring (not to mention the $).

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-20-2022 00:45
From: David Love
Subject: What would you do?

Personally, I would walk away telling them it's not worth pursuing and advise them on replacement. $1000 for a hammer job is low where I'm from and the quality of the outcome is likely more than just hammers.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 5/20/2022 4:05:00 PM
From: Peter Grey
Subject: RE: What would you do?

Remember that the thread is titled "What would you do?"  Not  "tell me what I should do". Many registered what THEY would do, which is exactly what Blaine asked. 

Personally, I would do as Blaine is doing as long as I'm getting paid for it and the client understands the whole situation. 

What I have learned over the years is that people will put money into things they care about (for whatever reason), but if they don't care about it, they won't. Learned this over and over again  sometimes to the tune of many thousands of dollars. If they detect that we are willing to care about what they care about...we get to share the joy of caring (not to mention the $).

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

I have been servicing pianos for longer than 48 years (especially if you count turning capstans with my grandfather at 8 years old), so I don't necessarily need advice or help with most piano work.

The question was intended as a poll and as a prompt to generate discussion (I am still smiling at that upholstery thread thread) for which it was successful.

I will report on my success (or failure).

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-20-2022 16:04
From: Peter Grey
Subject: What would you do?

Remember that the thread is titled "What would you do?"  Not  "tell me what I should do". Many registered what THEY would do, which is exactly what Blaine asked.

Personally, I would do as Blaine is doing as long as I'm getting paid for it and the client understands the whole situation.

What I have learned over the years is that people will put money into things they care about (for whatever reason), but if they don't care about it, they won't. Learned this over and over again  sometimes to the tune of many thousands of dollars. If they detect that we are willing to care about what they care about...we get to share the joy of caring (not to mention the $).

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-20-2022 00:45
From: David Love
Subject: What would you do?

Personally, I would walk away telling them it's not worth pursuing and advise them on replacement. $1000 for a hammer job is low where I'm from and the quality of the outcome is likely more than just hammers.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Mr. Hebert,
You seem to have found yourself on the horns of the dilemma each of us must face in this profession. To wit: Are you working for the piano or are you working for the person that owns it? You have landed on the side I have chosen. Working for the owner while being sure to offer the most honest advice that your skill and experience can offer. I make no claims that this path is superior only that it's the one I have chosen. No one is going to give you an award for rehabilitating an Aeolian console but when you're done you may have used your unique talents to make one person a little happier and the world a tiny bit better. Worth the effort if you ask me.

Mrs. Jusiel,
I am so in awe of and envious of your skill as a videographer. You give more to the profession in 9 minutes than I have in 40 years. Please don't stop.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-20-2022 20:37
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: What would you do?

I have been servicing pianos for longer than 48 years (especially if you count turning capstans with my grandfather at 8 years old), so I don't necessarily need advice or help with most piano work.

The question was intended as a poll and as a prompt to generate discussion (I am still smiling at that upholstery thread thread) for which it was successful.

I will report on my success (or failure).

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-20-2022 16:04
From: Peter Grey
Subject: What would you do?

Remember that the thread is titled "What would you do?"  Not  "tell me what I should do". Many registered what THEY would do, which is exactly what Blaine asked.

Personally, I would do as Blaine is doing as long as I'm getting paid for it and the client understands the whole situation.

What I have learned over the years is that people will put money into things they care about (for whatever reason), but if they don't care about it, they won't. Learned this over and over again  sometimes to the tune of many thousands of dollars. If they detect that we are willing to care about what they care about...we get to share the joy of caring (not to mention the $).

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com


Original Message:
Sent: 05-20-2022 00:45
From: David Love
Subject: What would you do?

Personally, I would walk away telling them it's not worth pursuing and advise them on replacement. $1000 for a hammer job is low where I'm from and the quality of the outcome is likely more than just hammers.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

I would certainly pitch raise it first. I'm sure you know this but others may not.

Tremaine Parsons

------------------------------
Tremaine Parsons RPT
Georgetown CA
(530) 333-9299
------------------------------

Fwiw, this device has shown up on Ebay from China. It looks promising in that it might better reintroduce the tension into the hammer felt similar to the original press. I've ordered one just to see, about $40. It does necessitate removing the hammer assembly from the action but it seems with two of them one could get a good rhythm going and the repair would be invisible.
The sellers don't seem to understand what the tool is for, they think it's for removing a grand hammer from the shank. They call it a "piano hammer shank press". (?)
It looks like they used a key pounder for the picture.



------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-20-2022 22:02
From: Tremaine Parsons
Subject: What would you do?

I would certainly pitch raise it first. I'm sure you know this but others may not.

Tremaine Parsons

------------------------------
Tremaine Parsons RPT
Georgetown CA
(530) 333-9299
------------------------------

Steve, that device looks quite interesting. If it works (it looks like it should), send me a hi-res image for the TTT column. 

As for the original question: I tend to be on the conservative side of extensive repairs to low-value instruments. It really depends on the instrument, and how many worms reside in the can, just waiting to wriggle out. If I do extensive work, the instrument should sound and play noticeably better. Often they don't.

"Our job is to serve in any way that's moral and legal, not to manage our client's financial decisions for them."

Ben, I'm not sure we can separate the two. They often rely on us for financial information about value and cost--we might be the decision-making authority in many instances when the customer really doesn't know. Even a trusted piano teacher may not be a good source of that information.

Another aspect of poor instruments: many customers have no point of comparison as to the vast gulf between a poor and a  good instrument. They might say things like "I don't need a Steinway" as if it's an either-or choice. They may have absolutely no idea that a good modern piano really can be better. What I've seen is that when I am able to get customers into a better piano, they have a revelation and are much appreciative. 

Often, when I tell the customer not to sink money into an instrument, they tell me they appreciate my honesty, especially because they know I could have easily talked them into expensive repairs. I tell them "Sure, I make a living fixing pianos. But I'd much rather have you playing a better instrument." 


------------------------------
Scott Cole, RPT
rvpianotuner.com
Talent, OR
(541-601-9033
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-22-2022 01:08
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: What would you do?

Fwiw, this device has shown up on Ebay from China. It looks promising in that it might better reintroduce the tension into the hammer felt similar to the original press. I've ordered one just to see, about $40. It does necessitate removing the hammer assembly from the action but it seems with two of them one could get a good rhythm going and the repair would be invisible.
The sellers don't seem to understand what the tool is for, they think it's for removing a grand hammer from the shank. They call it a "piano hammer shank press". (?)
It looks like they used a key pounder for the picture.



------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 05-20-2022 22:02
From: Tremaine Parsons
Subject: What would you do?

I would certainly pitch raise it first. I'm sure you know this but others may not.

Tremaine Parsons

------------------------------
Tremaine Parsons RPT
Georgetown CA
(530) 333-9299