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Who does flawless ivory repair?

  • 1.  Who does flawless ivory repair?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 16 days ago

    Hello all,

    Does anyone know where I could send a clients Steinway key for a flawless repair? I've had good luck with filling chips, but they always show to some extent. The client is wondering if it is possibe to replace the damaged ivory. I've done it many times, but I have not had great sucess with "invisible" repairs. They always look "pretty good". 

    Who is doing "high end" repairs on ivory?



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    Ryan Sowers RPT
    Olympia WA
    (360) 480-5648
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Who does flawless ivory repair?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 16 days ago

    After the "ivory ban" (change of rules at the Dept of Fish & Wildlife, during Obama's second term, which were eventually moderated), I think you'll find most of our key repair artisans to be reluctant to "mess with" ivory. On the other hand, Reyburn works with several ivory substitutes which may look "reasonably flawless". Michael Morvan may also offer similar services. Debra Legg did offer ivory re-laying (gluing up original ivories with wafers etc) services but gave it up after assessing the hassles of dealing with over eager Fish & Wildlife agents.



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    Patrick Draine RPT
    Billerica MA
    (978) 663-9690
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Who does flawless ivory repair?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 16 days ago

    Ryan,

    Assuming the head needs to be replaced, the fundamental problem is matching a replacement to the adjacent ivories. After, 50 years of keytop replacement I do have a rather large selection of Steinway ivory. Steinway ivory heads are longer than the typical heads. This limits the availability of replacement resources. I may have a "match" but I would need to examine an adjacent ivory to verify. If nobody steps up, you may contact me as a backup.

    Roger



    ------------------------------
    Roger Gable RPT
    Gable Piano
    Everett WA
    (425) 252-5000
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Who does flawless ivory repair?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 15 days ago

    Ryan, 

    Just one key?  All you need is the right piece.

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Who does flawless ivory repair?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 15 days ago

    That is very kind of you Roger! I might have one as well, but I have to admit my ivory collection is very disorganized. The biggest challenge I've encountered is the joint. If I'm working with a detached ivory and can glue the original back in place I have pretty good luck not having the joint be too visible. However, I've not had great luck with recycled ivory. The joint is  always noticeable. Then it becomes a toss up between a fill and replacement - most often I go with the fill and try to mitigate clients' expectations.

    Here's a picture. The repair I did was to glue back in a chip and then sand it flush so it feels smooth. It doesn't look bad, but it is noticeable to the client and they were curious if it could be replaced. I said yes, BUT...what are the odds a replacement will look better than the repair?



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    Ryan Sowers RPT
    Olympia WA
    (360) 480-5648
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Who does flawless ivory repair?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 15 days ago

    Ryan, when you smooth the back edge of the replacement head do not make it 90°. Angle so only the top fits the tail.



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    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Who does flawless ivory repair?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 15 days ago
    You may need to have a realism discussion with your client. The repair you did looks good, though any repair will always show. Are these single piece tops? From the photo it’s hard to discern a head/tail joint- which is another entry point of noticeable replacement activity, if you go that route.

    Which is more important to your client- a nicely regulated and sounding piano, or an inconsequential “mar” on the key surface?
    Sometimes as humans, it’s easy to get stuck in ideas of perfection.

    Joe Wiencek
    NYC




  • 8.  RE: Who does flawless ivory repair?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 15 days ago

    I have not had luck with Acrylic - too soft.  You need a large collection of heads and tails to get a good match.  A long time ago Frank Stopa showed me a milling cutter

    that Pratt Read used for jointing.  You can use a small mill and a face mill to do this. For fills use dental epoxy.



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    Parker Leigh RPT
    Winchester VA
    (540) 722-3865
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Who does flawless ivory repair?

    Posted 15 days ago

    You mean this milling cutter? I bought it and all Franks ivory equipment decades ago. I am jointing a set of new 2 piece bone keytops now.



    ------------------------------
    [Michael] [Morvan]
    [Blackstone Valley Piano]
    michaelmorvan9@gmail.com

    [Uxbridge] [MA] 01569
    [508-340-6443]
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Who does flawless ivory repair?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 15 days ago

    You're almost always better off using Acrylikey and working carefully to get the color right.  Beveling the receiving area of the fill hides the seam pretty well (better than gluing back on a chip) and you can polish the fill to the sheen you want.  The problem with replacing the ivory is having a replacement piece that not only matches color but translucency and grain.  So if it's a small chip I have found that repairing is almost always better.  That being said, if you found someone who has an extensive collection of ivory that could match it well and also install the new head so that the seam between head and tail doesn't show then that would be great.  That's pretty hard to do though as the factory method to get that seem invisible is very difficult to duplicate even if you are able to get head and tail on the same plane such that you can't feel the seem (a must).  



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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Who does flawless ivory repair?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 15 days ago

    The problem with Acrylikey is that it is too soft.  Dental epoxy is better.  A replacement ivory is best.



    ------------------------------
    Parker Leigh RPT
    Winchester VA
    (540) 722-3865
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Who does flawless ivory repair?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 14 days ago
    I don’t see anything in the online Journal articles index about using dental epoxy to repair ivory. Would anyone care to write an article about the subject?

    I’d be willing to try it, but I wouldn’t know where to start.
    What brand or type of epoxy? How would you match the color? Do you mix it with AcryliKey powder?

    If it really is better than AcryliKey, an article would be very valuable.

    I use the AcryliKey powders with medium CA. Makes for a durable repair, but aggressive mixing can introduce bubbles into the mix.




  • 13.  RE: Who does flawless ivory repair?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 13 days ago

    Do a search on ivory repair.  Numerous articles in past journals.  Most dental epoxies tend toward the dark side. You may want to lighten with

    titanium dioxide.



    ------------------------------
    Parker Leigh RPT
    Winchester VA
    (540) 722-3865
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Who does flawless ivory repair?

    Posted 13 days ago

    I've looked into this before. Modern dental fillers are UV curing acrylic resins with a filler (silica is common). I think Bis-GMA is the most common base resin, but there are a few.

    I've been experimenting with a few different Paraloid resins for keytop repairs. Many here are probably somewhat familiar with B-72. Still trying to find the best method, but I'm having pretty good results with a high concentration B-67 carrying glass microspheres and standard pigment powders to color match.

    Still working out a method that's simple and accessible! Will definitely be writing it up once I do.



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    Mathias Walters
    North Charleston SC
    (843) 619-7593
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  • 15.  RE: Who does flawless ivory repair?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 15 days ago

    Ryan,

    I believe all the entries about this subject are correct. After seeing your photo, anybody who tries to "repair" your client's key will probably dig themselves into an irretractable hole. I hereby retract my offer to tackle that repair.

    Roger



    ------------------------------
    Roger Gable RPT
    Gable Piano
    Everett WA
    (425) 252-5000
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Who does flawless ivory repair?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 15 days ago

    Retraction accepted, Roger! I also agree with all the responses here. This falls into the "managing client expectations" category. However, I've been amazed at the finish repairs that some skilled touch up artists are able to achieve, and I thought that someone in the United States may have the ability to do a high-end repair that would be effectively invisible. I would think such a repair would be worth at least $500. 

    Thanks for the responses, everyone. I've yet to try dental epoxy, so I may have to explore that. Thanks for the suggestion, Parker. 



    ------------------------------
    Ryan Sowers RPT
    Olympia WA
    (360) 480-5648
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Who does flawless ivory repair?

    Posted 15 days ago

    Ryan, I do flawless keytop restoration and replacement. If you have the pieces that have fallen off or if you have spares I can glue them back on for you. Most people will send the pieces that have fallen off to me with the rest of the keyboard and frame. Then i can clean all the keysticks and ivory, reglue any loose tops or fronts with hot hide glue, resurface, and buff. this will make the keyboard look new again. If that does not work for you we have the highest quality bone available as a 1 or 2 piece top, cast acrylic plastic in pure white, ivory colored, and cream colored, mineral plastic or "Tharan" in pure white, ivory color, or cream colored. Give me a call if you have any questions. Michael Morvan



    ------------------------------
    [Michael] [Morvan]
    [Blackstone Valley Piano]
    michaelmorvan9@gmail.com

    [Uxbridge] [MA] 01569
    [508-340-6443]
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Who does flawless ivory repair?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 13 days ago

    This is valuable information, Michael. I will se if this client wants to go throught the trouble. I also just received an email from a new client who has ivories that need repair. You may be hearing form me in the not-to-distant future!

    Ryan



    ------------------------------
    Ryan Sowers RPT
    Olympia WA
    (360) 480-5648
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Who does flawless ivory repair?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 13 days ago

    I can vouch for Michael's work.  You won't be sorry. In fact he's the only one I would trust in  an instance like this.

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Who does flawless ivory repair?

    Posted 10 days ago

    Thank you Peter for your kind words. After reading everyone's responses I would like to pass on a few things. It is illegal to sell ivory, it is not illegal to reattach, clean, and buff an existing keyboard. That is a service that can still be offered to a client and still should be offered to a client. I make money replacing original ivory on keyboards, but I would not recommend doing so if the original keyboard can be restored legally. This is the service of an existing product or keyboard, not a sale. Fortunately, a lot of the keytops when they fall off, fall in between the keys and can be retrieved and put back on. Furthermore, most professional players still prefer to play on ivory, bone, and ebony, I still field many calls a month asking for it. Ivory, ebony, and bone are natural materials, natural materials grip your fingers, natural materials are cool to the touch, natural materials wick-off moisture, these are the three coveted properties of natural materials pertaining to keytops. When F&W banned the sale of new (pre-ban) ivory it nearly put me out of business. The application of that new (pre-ban) ivory and bone represented the majority of my business, It is now illegal to offer ivory, the industry was in shock, the industry was scared, and I knew that it would take years for the dust to settle. I had the best alternatives, I had bone, I had mineral plastic, I had acrylic plastic, but the industry/profession would never be the same. Here we are, how many years later trying to repair ivory with dental kits, acryli-key, and other materials, why? Because most still prefer to keep the instrument authentic, and most still prefer the feel of natural materials over synthetic materials. Fortunately for the musicians and rebuilders, the bone suppliers have significantly improved the quality of their keytops. The quality of bone now matches that of the new (pre-ban) ivory I used to apply. Bone is now the only natural material besides hardwoods available as an option for natural keytops. Bone is the only new natural material available if a client wants an original-styled keytop with all the properties of ivory, keep an open mind, we adapted to the last change we can adapt to this one.



    ------------------------------
    [Michael] [Morvan]
    [Blackstone Valley Piano]
    michaelmorvan9@gmail.com

    [Uxbridge] [MA] 01569
    [508-340-6443]
    ------------------------------