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Tuning Fork

  • 1.  Tuning Fork

    Member
    Posted 02-19-2022 17:22
    Hello!

    I recently purchased two tuning forks from two different manufacturers. Both A440.
    One is steel. One is aluminum. Both labeled A440. When checked against Tunelab, one is exactly 443 Hz and the other is 443.6 Hz. Both at 20°C.
    Tunelab is calibrated and when checked against YouTube videos producing A440, it reads 0.0 Hz. I have a C 523.3 fork I've had since the 70s. It reads right on at C5.

    Has anyone ever experienced this before? I'm at a loss to explain two forks from two different manufacturers reading 443 while stamped 440. There must be something that I don't understand. 

    Thanks!

    Cary

    ------------------------------
    Cary Thrift
    Marietta GA
    770-517-9871
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Tuning Fork

    Posted 02-19-2022 17:41
    They could have been that way from the beginning. Or, Tunelab might be reading a partial instead of A440??

    Or, someone could've filed them to make the pitch A443 (intentionally or unintentionally).

    It is possible to make the pitch flatter by filing the inside of the tines near the bottom of the fork.

    ------------------------------
    John Formsma
    New Albany MS
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Tuning Fork

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-19-2022 18:37
    Before filing check what temperature is REQUIRED to bring them to 440hz. It might simply be that their environment is different from yours.

    Edit: But I agree with John that you need to find out what partial TL is zeroing in on.

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Tuning Fork

    Posted 02-20-2022 09:43
    I didn't think forks produced partials. They are one frequency only. That's why we use them. Partials would confuse the beat rates and you would be able to tune A440 to the partial of F3 instead of F4,, or maybe both.

    ------------------------------
    Keith Roberts
    owner
    Hathaway Pines CA
    209-770-4312
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Tuning Fork

    Posted 02-20-2022 17:46
    Tuning forks produce partials, but they are not the harmonic partials of a string.
    See my article in the August 2016 Journal.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Tuning Fork

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-19-2022 18:47
    Aluminum forks are not as stable as steel forks. Assuming your Tunelab is correct, as John said, file the bottom of the curve with a file to get it down to A440.

    As to why they are not the same, it could have been a manufacturer defect. Just like tuning pins. Not everyone in a box of pins is exactly the same size.

    Wim

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 7.  RE: Tuning Fork

    Posted 02-19-2022 19:40
    Who are the manufacturers?
    Some cheap tuning forks are not very accurate.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Tuning Fork

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-20-2022 00:47
    My first thought is, what did you calibrate against? 

    Second, the timing crystal in your device is what determines the frequency of the pitch of the note from YouTube. If the crystal is not correct, the video playback will not be correct. 

    Third, forks are not automatically as accurate as we presume. It's a chunk of metal, and changes all the time. Reality breaking in on our presumptions. You may need to tune your forks.

    ------------------------------
    David Stocker, RPT
    PNWRVP
    Olympia WA
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Tuning Fork

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-20-2022 03:04
    Last I heard TuneLab, assuming it is calibrated as specified, is set to the WWV time standard. To quote:

    "In the United States, WWV is the obvious time standard to check a clock against. WWV's claimed time accuracy as transmitted in Boulder, Colorado is 10 microseconds short term, and 1 second in 3,000 years long term. The received short-term accuracy is reduced to 0.001 second due to variations in the time signal's transit time."

    Personally I'd trust that over any tuning fork. 

    WWV and WWVH Digital Time Code and Broadcast Format | NIST

    ddf






  • 10.  RE: Tuning Fork

    Posted 02-20-2022 05:02
    The problem is having only one other reference. Load a tuning app on mobile phone and check the two others. 

    I wonder how many musicians are tuned either to near 444 or old French pitch of 435 without knowing?

    Here's an orchestra at 440 against an organ at around 443 from memory.

    The Harmonic Tuner app on Android is really special having the ability to listen to an instrument or a recording and determine pitch and likely temperament 

    Best wishes 

    David P 






  • 11.  RE: Tuning Fork

    Posted 02-21-2022 10:07
    David wrote:
    "Second, the timing crystal in your device is what determines the frequency of the pitch of the note from YouTube. If the crystal is not correct, the video playback will not be correct."

    I think this fact is often overlooked and the timing error is not necessarily easy to know or determine. I believe using digital phone lines for accurate frequency reference are suspect in the same way.

    One way to determine your device's error is to set the "time of day" clock from the online reference then disconnect the wi-fi etc. on your device (if you use an I-pod or I-pad; it's obviously not practical with a smart phone) This will allow your internal timing crystal to free run your "Time of day" clock without updates from the online reference. You will note after some period of time your device will run slow or fast. If you keep accurate track of the duration of days, hours and minutes (seconds?) you'll have the offset error of your device and can calculate that into a frequency/pitch offset and apply that to your tuning app if it has one. (I only know that Veritune has this feature, the others may too, IDK. 





  • 12.  RE: Tuning Fork

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-21-2022 10:34

    Gary,

    Yes! And even if you determine your device's crystal is off, there is no universal correction you can make in the operating system. An individual app can be programmed to do it, but that doesn't affect the performance of any other app. In other words, calibrating your tuning app will not calibrate YouTube's playback frequencies. 

    I was working with someone a few years ago who had a Windows machine that was more than 35¢ flat. I have not read anything lately about the accuracy of android phones. Apple products are at least rumored to be reliable. 


    Cary, I would recommend deciding what temperature you would like the fork to be at when you tune, and then calibrate the forks at that temperature. Leaving it lay on a plate for a minute will bring it to room temperature. I used to check by touching the fork to my lips, which are temperature sensitive. Some stick it their pocket, like Scott said. Pick one you think will be reliable. 



    ------------------------------
    David Stocker, RPT
    PNWRVP
    Olympia WA
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Tuning Fork

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-21-2022 10:43
    Here’s a question: if the goal is a precise 440, why use a tuning fork at all? Why not a harmonic tuner like a Korg?




  • 14.  RE: Tuning Fork

    Posted 02-22-2022 09:19
    David,

    You are absolutely correct, but if you do have a tuning app like the verituner that is designed to be accurate with a device with an accurate system clock, you do not even need a pitch reference. All you need to know is what the clock offset or error is.

    The correction is not for youtube or any thing else because as you state there is no provision for that, but you don't need it. 








  • 15.  RE: Tuning Fork

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-20-2022 10:56
    Put a fork in your pocket for a few minutes and then check the pitch. It will probably be lower. Your forks may be exactly 440°….at the temperature they were manufactured at.
    Whatever the case, easily adjusted.




  • 16.  RE: Tuning Fork

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-21-2022 10:59
    I understand the problem of A443. You want absolute accuracy at A440. Will that last overnight? The next day when the humidity changes? A440 is a shibboleth which we spent too much time perusing.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Tuning Fork

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-22-2022 00:20
    Larry,

    Even with an accurate ETD a pitch of 440 will only last as long as the temperature and humidity remain exactly the same.  Often by the end of a service call a piano has already drifted off pitch by some amount and by performance time it is likely no longer 440.00.
    I always shoot for 440 to 441 and I try not to change pitch uncecessarily; I am expecially conservative at dropping the pitch when sharp.

    My favorite fork is a C at about 524; it has wonderful volume and sustain. 

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Tuning Fork

    Posted 02-22-2022 09:27
    Larry,

    Your comment sort of changes the direction of this thread so I'll ask: If we claim to tune to A440, how close to A440 do we need to get? 10 cents? 1 cent? 0.1? Just float the pitch wherever you find it?






  • 19.  RE: Tuning Fork

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-22-2022 10:28
    If 440 is demanded...close. If it is not demanded, let it float as you see fit for minimal tension alteration and maximum stability. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Tuning Fork

    Posted 02-22-2022 12:20
    I am a strong believer in 'floating' pitch seasonally for non essential 440 usage , ie the majority of home usage , some schools etc  especially in New England , for some of these ​ situations I would note the floated  pitch on a Post It and tuck it away so I could reference it next time……ok 440 disciples have at it!.
    www.snowpianos.com

    ------------------------------
    Martin Snow
    South Burlington VT
    617-543-1030
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Tuning Fork

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-22-2022 12:34

    I float all the time!  A440 is not God.  In winter I can handle 439 or dare I say 438?  In our very humid summers, 442 is acceptable.  This is in a majority of practice rooms, teaching studios, homes, and the like.

    I do try to keep performance pianos at A440 just in case... I've never heard a problem come back to me.

     

    Paul






  • 22.  RE: Tuning Fork

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-22-2022 12:59
    Greetings, 
      While my obsessive/compulsive nature, (an essential ingredient in good piano work) hides in mortification and chagrin, my practical, compromising self is drawn to champion a loose embrace of the imprecise. 

       Adherence to exact A440, (which, of necessity, requires a numerical definition of "exact") may be utile as a narrow gate in our clinical testing for admission to the ranks of RPT, insurance while in the orchestra pit, and perhaps to the neurotic record producer scrambling for excuses when session players are having some trouble with their "tooning".  However, the pitch is more useful for us making a living when it functions more as a guide  rather than a specific point.  The case of environment is one major example.  Allowing pianos to rise and fall with the seasons is far more beneficial to their stability and our cost/benefit results than forcing the tension one way or another because it is not "exact". A440 can then be a legitimate pivot point around which the piano swings rather than a fixed target at an exact moment.  

        Ancient strings may urge for more slack, the tragically continental violinist may see A 443 as the mark of sophistication, but for the most part, the tech may do best by allowing the piano's use, history, and environment to form the 'standard' to which it is taken.  
    Regards, 
    Ed Foote RPT 





  • 23.  RE: Tuning Fork

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-22-2022 14:06
    Being one who started tuning back in the Aural Era, I smile at a resolution of 0.1¢, which at A440, would mean having to wait 40 seconds for a single 1 Hz beat rate.

    (Please do correct my math. I figure that an error of 1.0¢ between two pitches would produce a beat rate period of 4 seconds. A440 and A441 have a 1 sec. period. Of course, moving these mismatched pitches downwards in frequency would of course speed up: at an octave lower, you'd only have to wait 20 seconds for a beat rate cause by a 0.1¢ mismatch.)

    And of course, back in th'day, if we were left with only our ears to detect such small errors, the musicians were in the same boat.

    I remember the late, great Dean of Piano Techs in the Northeast (north of NYC), Frank Hansen explaining to the N.H. Chapter, 40 years ago, how he set A440 for the Boston Symphony Orchestra and Tanglewood. 1.) set C4 at a 523.4 C-fork, 2.) temper F3 for a 5th he was used to, and temper A3 for a M#d he was used to. That was his A440, with only an occasional, specious complaint.

    As far as music departments and school system with their start-o-school tunings (current pitch at 445-6), those tunings get floated @ A442 (8¢). Much beyond that and band instruments pitched at A440 find their inherent intonation warping badly (which is not to say that a symphony wind player won't get disturbed at 4¢ deviation). At the end of the Fall semester (and for the practice room pianos, the JAN tunings), they are ready for a spot-on (<G>) A440 tuning.


    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Tuning Fork

    Posted 02-22-2022 17:26
    Thanks for all the replies. Seems all are in favor of a small float (up/down to +/- 12c?) for seasonal and stability reasons. Makes sense and yeah, I do that too but if unsure, I always ask the customer if they require A440 or not.

    So the question is: If A440 is demanded, what does “close” mean? How close (or loose) would you set A4? Or for the same matter, for the OP who want’s to calibrate his fork, how close should he try to get it?

    I have an old Accu-Tuner III which is guaranteed better than +/-0.005 cent accuracy. If the OP could get his hands on one of these, I suppose it’s just up to him how far he want’s to take it?




  • 25.  RE: Tuning Fork

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-22-2022 17:33
    Gary, 

    +/- 12 cents would be approximately 437 to 443. Some posters have said they go down to 439 or even 438. Personally, I keep pitch between 440 and the 442.

    FWIW,

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Tuning Fork

    Posted 02-22-2022 17:52
    Alan,

    Thanks for the input. For schools, churches and music venues, I tune to A440 unless asked otherwise, no questions. Especially when other instruments are involved, I don't want my work in question.





  • 27.  RE: Tuning Fork

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-22-2022 22:59
    The piano I've tuned the most, pre covid, is a C7x in a jazz club, anywhere from 50 to 90 tunings a year. That piano does not go out of tune with itself, mostly staying within .2 cents throughout even though there have been some pretty long gaps in tuning over the last 2 years. Now things are picking up and I'm tuning it 6 times in 8 days.
    But here's the rub, I tune it at mid day when the room is empty and they're "banking" the cold. Lately it's been right around 64º, even on a slow night it will be up over 70º and over 75º when the place is hopping. My goal is to keep it above 440 at all (show) times so I float it at around 441+/- depending on the season.
    The piano stays in tune with itself as the temperature rises quite well but the different sections do change at different rates somewhat. I've never had any complaints regarding the pitch of the piano. 
    The next day at noon with the room back at the temperature it was tuned, it has returned pretty much as I left it the day before. Ideally one should tune the piano at the same ambient temperature as it is going to used in.
    Btw, I have yet to see anyone checking/adjusting the pitch of their keyboards to the piano, nor have I seen any guitarists or their techs check their devices to the piano before they tune the guitars. 
    This matters more to us than anyone else it seems.

    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: Tuning Fork

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-23-2022 17:25
    Steve,
    I think your environment in Hawaii is likely more stable by leaps and bounds than most of the rest of the country. I tuned the Iridium Jazz club in NYC 3 times/week for several years. In the summer, the AC was set at 72. In the winter, heat was up to 80. I would float pitch, but every few weeks would need to reign it back in to keep all the other instruments in tune with the piano.



    Joe Wiencek
    NYC




  • 29.  RE: Tuning Fork

    Posted 02-23-2022 22:11

    If you want stable, come to the west coast, AKA Piano Paradise. I've looked after pianos right next to the ocean which only needed tuning every five years or so once they got over where they had been before. One retiring musician from the MIdwest really didn't approve of my tuning fee. I told her that she wouldn't need to tune her piano four times a year anymore. She resisted, and finally had me tune it when she couldn't stand it anymore. Three years later, she was much more relaxed. She hadn't needed to call me again -- though I did tune it for her several more times, every few years.

    These days, with climate change, all bets are off, but when I arrived in Corvallis, the summers were Mediterranean (mild but mostly dry) and the winters were very wet and rainy, but not very cold. The heat was on to moderate the winter moisture in the winter. Humidity seemed to vary between about 35% and 50% but was usually in the 40's. I was shocked when it got up to 60% for a few days in the spring: still some rains but warmer so the heat was off. If people phoned me then, when they told me the tuning had gone really bad in just a few days, I'd tell them to wait three weeks and then call back. The suddenly bad tunings tended to self-heal by then.

    I theorize that some places in the high desert, dry all the time despite a wide range of temperature, also produced some amazingly stable and well-preserved pianos, if they had arrived when they were young and strong. In Stockton, one week I saw two big old uprights, unrelated, from Montana, neither tuned in over 30 years. Both were one quarter tone sharp, no doubt due to somewhat higher humidity. One in particular, opened up, looked amazing. There was a tiny thin patina of gray-brown dust, and underneath all the metal looked brand new. 1930's piano.






  • 30.  RE: Tuning Fork

    Posted 02-24-2022 07:52
    Susan this is so true ,our expertise in advising customers in best  maintenance is garnered after years in that region observing how well made pianos react seasonally.
    Yesterday here in Northern Vermont we had 55 degrees and most surface snow melting , later today we drop to negative temps. and projected 10 inches snowfall. My morning tuning customer yesterday left this sweet note, they'd been up since 4am working their hundreds of sugar maples as the sap had started to flow, that will slow today as temps. drop.
    www.snowpianos.com

    ------------------------------
    Martin Snow
    South Burlington VT
    617-543-1030
    ------------------------------



  • 31.  RE: Tuning Fork

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-24-2022 09:12
    Tucson experienced the 2nd driest monsoon on record in 2020 and the 3rd wettest in 2021. Piano pitch went predictably haywire. We may be back to average conditions now but who knows what the future will bring?

    Bob Anderson
    Tucson, AZ




  • 32.  RE: Tuning Fork

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-24-2022 10:26
    Sounds like the future will bring more piano tuning Bob!

    Joe
    nYc