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The pedal is too hard to press

  • 1.  The pedal is too hard to press

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-08-2016 22:19

    I have a customer with a four year old Knabe baby grand. She has arthritis in her feet and is complaining that the sustain pedal is too hard for her to press down. I'm reasonably sure that this is the pedal return spring that is just too stiff, but I can't think of a way to make it less so. I hope someone here can share a possible solution. 

    Thanks --

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    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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  • 2.  RE: The pedal is too hard to press

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-08-2016 22:25

    Geoff Sykes wrote:

    "I'm reasonably sure that this is the pedal return spring that is just too stiff…"

    Is it a spiral or a leaf spring?

    Alan

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    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483



  • 3.  RE: The pedal is too hard to press

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-08-2016 23:01

    Geoff

    Try removing the spring and see if it makes the pedal easier to press. (Have the customer try it).  If anything, it might make the dampers work a little less efficient, but the she might be willing to put up with it if it makes the pedal easier to press down.

    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789



  • 4.  RE: The pedal is too hard to press

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-08-2016 23:07

    Geoff,

     

    Depending on the type of spring . . .

     

    I have moved the location of the spring to reduce it's effectiveness.  With coil springs this is tough, so take the spring out and install a generic leaf type spring and a leather pad on the trap lever.

     

    Don Mannino

     






  • 5.  RE: The pedal is too hard to press

    Posted 12-08-2016 23:23

    For the coil spring, I have used a hacksaw and cut off  one of the coils. If you're in your shop you can also use an angle grinder. I have done this a few times and it has worked great.

    Regards,

    Jack

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    Jack Houweling
    Piano Technician
    www.Jackspiano.com
    Delta B.C.
    604 970-3371



  • 6.  RE: The pedal is too hard to press

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-09-2016 08:10
    Geoff,

    I agree with the suggestions about altering springs, but first consider the angle of her heel to pedal. Is the pedal too high for her?  In my experience I haven't found  Knabes to be overly heavy. A Steinway M is a different story and approach.

    If the piano is on caster cups, remove them. Put something on the floor under her heel, such as carpet stair treads, or you can do a test by using a thin book. The goal is to open the angle at her ankle. I had a client with arthritis complaining about a heavy pedal. It turned out that the problem was the limited movement at her ankle, not the heaviness of the pedal. Simply taking the piano off caster cups was all she needed.

    Joyce





  • 7.  RE: The pedal is too hard to press

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-09-2016 08:50

    Ah, I just reread you original post.  I had missed that it's a four year old "Knabe."

    Even so, first check her ankle's range of motion before alterations. A lighter pedal might still be a problem if she can't easily lift her foot to the pedal height.

    ------------------------------
    Joyce Meekins
    Greenbelt MD



  • 8.  RE: The pedal is too hard to press

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-09-2016 11:21

    HI Joyce -

    I know it might be taken as 'sexist', but, given the times we live in, that's either now considered OK, or no one seems to care.  Anyway, in reading your astute assessment, I couldn't help but feel there was a missed opportunity to advocate for the ultimate solution: a new pair of shoes, rather than having to lift the piano off any caster cups, which, if, in fact, there, might have been so for a reason.  Who could resist the license to buy new shoes?  (I'd enjoy them, so so much for the sexist element.)

    Has anyone come up with an actual range of pressure for pedals?  I just did a crude assessment of the (fairly light-feeling) sustain pedal on my Steinway M, using a few boxes of tuning pins, and that came to somewhere between 16 and 20 lbs.  It ought to be possible to derive a reliable way to determine such a base measurement, even if the effective force required is altered by such things as angle, height, composition of shoe sole, etc.

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    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565



  • 9.  RE: The pedal is too hard to press

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-09-2016 08:56
    If it's a coil spring: I have read or heard about tying a few of the coils together to make it weaker.

    Cindy





  • 10.  RE: The pedal is too hard to press

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-09-2016 09:31
    As Don M has mentioned, relocating the spring is an option.  Try all the easier stuff first.  If those don't work, remove the lever, using a Forstner bit make a new "socket" hole for the spring in both the keybed and the lever closer to the pivot point  ........  if possible  ........  if it's a coil spring.
     
     





  • 11.  RE: The pedal is too hard to press

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-09-2016 09:25

    You could also find or make a spring of a smaller diameter wire.

    I keep an assortment of springs for trap applications. Also make

    sure there are no friction issues or binding parts. There may also

    be an assist spring on the damper tray that may be too strong and

    can be replaced with a weaker spring.

    ------------------------------
    Dave Conte
    Owner
    Fort Worth TX
    817-581-7321



  • 12.  RE: The pedal is too hard to press

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-09-2016 08:53

    Geoff -

    I'm assuming, maybe incorrectly, that, in addition to the pedal return spring, there has to be a damper tray return spring.  Why not try simply removing the pedal spring, to see if she feels more comfortable?  This could work, assuming that the tray spring is strong enough to return the tray to its full rest position which would maintain some lost motion between tray and underlevers.  Admittedly not as elegant or tech-worthy as the previous suggestions.

    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565



  • 13.  RE: The pedal is too hard to press

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-09-2016 09:17
    You can order various sizes of springs with various amounts of resistance from Steinway. I keep an array of them in my toolkit and use them often enough. Most damper systems have 2 springs- one in the underlever tray and one in the trap work, so you could pull one out for a temporary fix, and order some replacements to install one at the next tuning.
    Just be aware that if you cut a coil spring, you will usually wind up with a click when the coil is compressed. You can try to add felt to prevent a click but you may get a callback.

    Good luck
    Elizabeth




  • 14.  RE: The pedal is too hard to press

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-09-2016 11:01

    Thanks to all for the wonderful ideas. 

    Being a relatively new Knabe, (Samick), I'm pretty sure it's a coil spring. But I have not actually seen the piano yet so I could be wrong. 

    I had this idea about compressing the spring. The idea was to take two washers with a larger diameter than the spring and hook them together with a screw and nut inside the spring. Put them between one or two winding's of the spring and then tighten the screw until acceptable resistance is achieved. Has anyone ever tried this?

    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA



  • 15.  RE: The pedal is too hard to press

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-09-2016 11:41

    Geoff -

    I'm sure there's a reason why that wouldn't work, but I can't think of it.  Two things:

    - you would get more control if you increased the number of coils between washers

    - you could drill a hole through the lever in the center of the coil diameter and use a hex cap screw and fender washer combination, with the nut expoxied to the upper washer, so that you could use the appropriate ball driver to adjust the spring compression from underneath, without having to dismantle the assembly.

    It'll never work.

    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565



  • 16.  RE: The pedal is too hard to press

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-09-2016 12:22

    David --

    - you could drill a hole through the lever in the center of the coil diameter and use a hex cap screw and fender washer combination, with the nut expoxied to the upper washer, so that you could use the appropriate ball driver to adjust the spring compression from underneath, without having to dismantle the assembly.

    Ahh, much better approach. I'm not convinced it would work either. I'm just thinkin'. Lot's of good ideas here from everyone. Thanks.

    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA



  • 17.  RE: The pedal is too hard to press

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-10-2016 14:16
    I carry a number of springs in my van and have changed springs for this reason. You can find them in your hardware store.  
    Bruce

    Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.





  • 18.  RE: The pedal is too hard to press

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-09-2016 11:28
    Geoff,
    If all of the other suggestion fail, you may need to resort to changing the the leverage ration of the trap system. Also, check to see if the piano is placed on a high pile carpet that would limit the effective travel of the pedal whereupon the pedal buries itself into the carpet. Keep in mind, a high pile carpet may be the only issue causing her discomfort from the angle of attack of the foot. Too high a pedal from the piano place on caster cups could also cause an uncomfortable angle of attack.
    Roger Gable
    P.S. Changing the leverage ratio may require a precise damper lift timing as the high trap ratio will limit the travel of the dampers.



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  • 19.  RE: The pedal is too hard to press

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-09-2016 11:41
    David-

    Not sexist at all. I discuss this in a class I give on this topic, pedaling and adapting systems for the specific player.
     
    Women have the advantage of a wide selection of heel heights in shoes. 

    Out tuning, so won't be able to expand on this now.

    Joyce






  • 20.  RE: The pedal is too hard to press

    Posted 12-21-2016 18:36

    A measuring device for pedal measurement may be constructed as follows:

    Parts: fishing scale rated 50lbs or more, a wooden platform size of average pedal box bottom (luan subflooring) a block of wood to  hold an eye bolt(to change the direction of force to make scale work) wedges to hold the board down 

    Assembly: glue small bloc for eye screw . Insert screw with thin CA for holding power,

    Hope this helps,

    Dale

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    Dale Probst
    Registered Piano Technician
    Wichita Falls TX
    dale@wardprobst.com



  • 21.  RE: The pedal is too hard to press

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-21-2016 22:54

    Dale -

     Unfortunately, the pictures did not come through.  Could you send them again?

    Thanks.

    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565