Pianotech

Larry

question 1. Without the wedge the piano will never stay in tune. The plate is constantly moving towards the belly

question 2. I've put the wedge in once after I strung a piano, but I used a sledge hammer to get it to stay in there

if you don't have a sledge hammer I would suggest you lower the tension on all the strings before putting the wedge back in.  

I forgot question 3.  

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Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789

Original Message:
Sent: 09-06-2016 19:51
From: Larry Fisher
Subject: Steinway horn wedge

There's a metal wedge that is found at the tenor break between the cast iron horn of the plate and the belly rail on this particular Steinway B.  Embedded in the belly rail is the metal mating surface.  This wedge has fallen out and when I tried to put it back in I found the fit to be quite tight  ........  tighter than I could muster with what tools I had to get it to stay in there sufficiently.  I'm expecting I'll have to try to locate a small machinists screw jack in there to get enough leverage to push it back up in there.  I know that if I were to take the tension down on all the strings this would go a lot easier but I'm trying to avoid that if I can.

 

Question one  .........  how critical is it that it be put back in there?

 

Question two  .........  any suggestions on a method to facilitate it's reinstallation?

 

Question three  ....    anyone experience plate failure due to this piece missing?

Original Message------

There's a metal wedge that is found at the tenor break between the cast iron horn of the plate and the belly rail on this particular Steinway B.  Embedded in the belly rail is the metal mating surface.  This wedge has fallen out and when I tried to put it back in I found the fit to be quite tight  ........  tighter than I could muster with what tools I had to get it to stay in there sufficiently.  I'm expecting I'll have to try to locate a small machinists screw jack in there to get enough leverage to push it back up in there.  I know that if I were to take the tension down on all the strings this would go a lot easier but I'm trying to avoid that if I can.

 

Question one  .........  how critical is it that it be put back in there?

 

Question two  .........  any suggestions on a method to facilitate it's reinstallation?

 

Question three  ....    anyone experience plate failure due to this piece missing?

Original Message------

The wedge is there to connect the "horn" with the so-called "tone collector." The function of the system is to couple stress from the string frame -- i.e., the tragically misnamed "plate" -- to the belly struts. This rather simple expedient enables Steinway to use a commendably light weight string frame. 

I've encountered two Steinway grands with this wedge missing. Both -- probably coincidentally -- were Model Ms. One had been rebuilt and was simply missing. Presumably because the rebuilder had not bothered to replace it during rebuilding. Or discovered he had left it out after the fact and decided that, since the plate had not yet broken it was OK to leave it out. The other I found lying on the keybed back behind the damper tray. Presumably it fell out at some point during construction and never was properly installed. 

You'll notice this wedge is, well, wedge-shaped. There is a reason for that. No two Steinway plates sit in the same position relatively to the bellyrail (or the rim, for that) and the wedge shape makes it possible to set the plate in place, stick the wedge in there and have it make good contact. It can, however, drop out during the wangs and bangs of stringing so it's a good idea to stick some duct tape around the thing to hold it in place until there is enough tension on the strings to keep it there. 

Somebody didn't do this. Is it a problem? Who knows? It depends on where the plate is sitting relative to the tone collector. The problem is that you have no way of knowing this. What you do know is the plate has almost certainly distorted some. 

Is it enough to cause a problem -- i.e., cause the plate to crack -- down the road? Again, who knows? Is it a chance you're willing to take? How wide was the gap between the horn and the tone collector before tension was applied to the strings? Do you know this? How important is the piano to you? Is it your piano? Are you willing to take the chance that the original gap was quite small and there will be no future problem? Is it a customer's piano? How willing are they to take the chance that the original gap was quite small and there will be not future problem?

The only way to know for sure is to lower tension and see what happens. These wedges are not hard to make. They don't have to be steel, brass works just fine. Grind one to shape, drop the tension and stick it in there. You'll all sleep better.

ddf

  

--

Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Design & Manufacturing Consultant
6939 Foothill Court SW, Olympia, Washington 98512 USA
Email  ddfandrich@gmail.com
Tel  360 515 0119  --  Cell  360 388 6525

Not necessarily, Keith. I've now repaired two Baldwin string frames that cracked some 10 to 15 years after faulty construction. And the piano world is littered with pianos that functioned for years before various cracks opened up.

------------------------------
[Delwin D] Fandrich] [RPT]
[Piano Design & Manufacturing Consultant]
[Fandrich Piano Co., Inc.]
[Olympia] [WA]
[360-515-0119]

Original Message:
Sent: 09-07-2016 23:42
From: Keith Akins
Subject: Steinway horn wedge

A simple expedient that works in this situation is to cut off a screwdriver blade enough above the tip so there is some of the shaft to pound on. The screwdriver blade is thin enough to go almost anywhere and wedges have substantial leverage. I would feel fully comfortable for the long haul driving in said screwdriver-blade-cum-wedge as far as I could. One thing that is absolutelly sure is that the plate will no longer move in that direction. If it didn't break yet, it shouldn't in the future if there is no further movement. You might even get back some of the distance it has flexed, although that shouldn't matter -- taking the fact that the string-frame is not yet broken as prima facie evidence that it's OK where it is. 

Keith Akins, RPT

Piano Technologist

715/775-0022 Mon-Sat 9a-9p

#1: It's structural. I consider structure to be important. It needs to
go in.

#2: It needs to go in like it was intended to go in. Snug fit with zero
tension, so it can do it's job of supporting the middle of the plate
against string tension.

#3: Is potential structural failure the only reason to consider doing it
right? Everyone's sure getting lazy these days. Let the tension down -
to zero - and see how much the plate springs back. If that doesn't scare
you, you aren't paying attention. I hold the wedges in place with
masking tape or Arkansas Chrome while I string the piano, so there's no
way I'll neglect to put them in. But when I have forgotten, I let the
tension down, installed them right, and pulled tension back up.
Sometimes doing our jobs is inconvenient, and costs us an extra hour or
so of our lives.

Ron N


Original Message------

There's a metal wedge that is found at the tenor break between the cast iron horn of the plate and the belly rail on this particular Steinway B.  Embedded in the belly rail is the metal mating surface.  This wedge has fallen out and when I tried to put it back in I found the fit to be quite tight  ........  tighter than I could muster with what tools I had to get it to stay in there sufficiently.  I'm expecting I'll have to try to locate a small machinists screw jack in there to get enough leverage to push it back up in there.  I know that if I were to take the tension down on all the strings this would go a lot easier but I'm trying to avoid that if I can.

 

Question one  .........  how critical is it that it be put back in there?

 

Question two  .........  any suggestions on a method to facilitate it's reinstallation?

 

Question three  ....    anyone experience plate failure due to this piece missing?

Original Message------

#1: It's structural. I consider structure to be important. It needs to
go in.

#2: It needs to go in like it was intended to go in. Snug fit with zero
tension, so it can do it's job of supporting the middle of the plate
against string tension.

#3: Is potential structural failure the only reason to consider doing it
right? Everyone's sure getting lazy these days. Let the tension down -
to zero - and see how much the plate springs back. If that doesn't scare
you, you aren't paying attention. I hold the wedges in place with
masking tape or Arkansas Chrome while I string the piano, so there's no
way I'll neglect to put them in. But when I have forgotten, I let the
tension down, installed them right, and pulled tension back up.
Sometimes doing our jobs is inconvenient, and costs us an extra hour or
so of our lives.

Ron N

The Mason & Hamlin A has a hole for the sostenuto connector, conveniently located to allow the wedge to drop through to the floor when de-stringing. As it happened to me, the next day I was doing my bi-annual shop sweep and sent the wedge to the county landfill. It is not dificult to make a new wedge from a bit of scrap iron.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 09-07-2016 12:50
From: Michael Gamble
Subject: Steinway horn wedge

When I was re-stringing my S&S Model A-II 'short scale' Hamburger (1914) this horn fell out as I de-strung it. I posted much the same questions here in about 2005. Ron Overs answered about the horn and I was careful to follow his advice to replace it before tensioning up the new strings. It has remained stable ever since.    Michael   UK

Thanks guys.  Wim, I laughed at your last sentence.  Memory is one of those things that are first to go  ....  but I don't remember where.

Ron  ..... I've used Arkansas Chrome to fix a good number of things around here and I was taught really well by watching that Red and Green show out of the Republic of Maine.

Dell, as usual, I liked your response the best.  I'll be taking a copy of your response to my customer (with your blessings I hope) and try to schedule a time to do this right.  Does the tone collector ever need rinsing out or emptying?  Everything has it's limits ya know and Wim's memory bucket was filled to over flowing.  Should there be an absorbent cloth under these things to keep from staining the African Elephant Wood flooring?

------------------------------
Larry Fisher
Owner, Chief Grunt, Head Hosehead
Vancouver WA
360-256-2999

Original Message:
Sent: 09-06-2016 19:51
From: Larry Fisher
Subject: Steinway horn wedge

There's a metal wedge that is found at the tenor break between the cast iron horn of the plate and the belly rail on this particular Steinway B.  Embedded in the belly rail is the metal mating surface.  This wedge has fallen out and when I tried to put it back in I found the fit to be quite tight  ........  tighter than I could muster with what tools I had to get it to stay in there sufficiently.  I'm expecting I'll have to try to locate a small machinists screw jack in there to get enough leverage to push it back up in there.  I know that if I were to take the tension down on all the strings this would go a lot easier but I'm trying to avoid that if I can.

 

Question one  .........  how critical is it that it be put back in there?

 

Question two  .........  any suggestions on a method to facilitate it's reinstallation?

 

Question three  ....    anyone experience plate failure due to this piece missing?

Be my guest -- use whatever it is that I wrote at your own risk.

I don't think you have to worry about the tone collector overflowing. Most people don't play their pianos enough for them to completely fill up and cause any problems. There is some evaporation of the excess tone during the periods of time when the piano is just sitting there. Sometimes at night you can hear this tone escaping. This sounds a lot like the house settling with its various creaks and groans but it is really the tone collector getting rid of excessive tone. In most cases it seems to be enough to keep them from overflowing and causing any permanent damage to the surroundings. 

------------------------------
[Delwin D] Fandrich] [RPT]
[Piano Design & Manufacturing Consultant]
[Fandrich Piano Co., Inc.]
[Olympia] [WA]
[360-515-0119]

Original Message:
Sent: 09-07-2016 10:24
From: Larry Fisher
Subject: Steinway horn wedge

Thanks guys.  Wim, I laughed at your last sentence.  Memory is one of those things that are first to go  ....  but I don't remember where.

Ron  ..... I've used Arkansas Chrome to fix a good number of things around here and I was taught really well by watching that Red and Green show out of the Republic of Maine.

Dell, as usual, I liked your response the best.  I'll be taking a copy of your response to my customer (with your blessings I hope) and try to schedule a time to do this right.  Does the tone collector ever need rinsing out or emptying?  Everything has it's limits ya know and Wim's memory bucket was filled to over flowing.  Should there be an absorbent cloth under these things to keep from staining the African Elephant Wood flooring?

------------------------------
Larry Fisher
Owner, Chief Grunt, Head Hosehead
Vancouver WA
360-256-2999

Original Message:
Sent: 09-06-2016 19:51
From: Larry Fisher
Subject: Steinway horn wedge

There's a metal wedge that is found at the tenor break between the cast iron horn of the plate and the belly rail on this particular Steinway B.  Embedded in the belly rail is the metal mating surface.  This wedge has fallen out and when I tried to put it back in I found the fit to be quite tight  ........  tighter than I could muster with what tools I had to get it to stay in there sufficiently.  I'm expecting I'll have to try to locate a small machinists screw jack in there to get enough leverage to push it back up in there.  I know that if I were to take the tension down on all the strings this would go a lot easier but I'm trying to avoid that if I can.

 

Question one  .........  how critical is it that it be put back in there?

 

Question two  .........  any suggestions on a method to facilitate it's reinstallation?

 

Question three  ....    anyone experience plate failure due to this piece missing?

Absolutely. I've also noticed that the more dramatic killer octaves
typically occur in pianos with tone collectors. It's not widely known
that the killer octave is actually a design feature whose purpose is to
process and dissipate excess collected tone into various other acoustic
effects (and dust), before it can do any damage. A quite effective and
underappreciated safety feature.

Ron N


Original Message------

Be my guest -- use whatever it is that I wrote at your own risk.

I don't think you have to worry about the tone collector overflowing. Most people don't play their pianos enough for them to completely fill up and cause any problems. There is some evaporation of the excess tone during the periods of time when the piano is just sitting there. Sometimes at night you can hear this tone escaping. This sounds a lot like the house settling with its various creaks and groans but it is really the tone collector getting rid of excessive tone. In most cases it seems to be enough to keep them from overflowing and causing any permanent damage to the surroundings. 

------------------------------
[Delwin D] Fandrich] [RPT]
[Piano Design & Manufacturing Consultant]
[Fandrich Piano Co., Inc.]
[Olympia] [WA]
[360-515-0119]
------------------------------

Larry:  Have you already installed the plate back into the Piano?  If not you might be able to lift the plate enough to reset the pin than drop the plate back into position.  Personally I think it is there for a purpose and needs to be reinstalled.

Clarence Zeches, RPT

------------------------------
Clarence Zeches
Piano Service Enterprise School of Technology
Toccoa GA
706-886-4035

Original Message:
Sent: 09-06-2016 19:51
From: Larry Fisher
Subject: Steinway horn wedge

There's a metal wedge that is found at the tenor break between the cast iron horn of the plate and the belly rail on this particular Steinway B.  Embedded in the belly rail is the metal mating surface.  This wedge has fallen out and when I tried to put it back in I found the fit to be quite tight  ........  tighter than I could muster with what tools I had to get it to stay in there sufficiently.  I'm expecting I'll have to try to locate a small machinists screw jack in there to get enough leverage to push it back up in there.  I know that if I were to take the tension down on all the strings this would go a lot easier but I'm trying to avoid that if I can.

 

Question one  .........  how critical is it that it be put back in there?

 

Question two  .........  any suggestions on a method to facilitate it's reinstallation?

 

Question three  ....    anyone experience plate failure due to this piece missing?

I have had to replace missing wedges in several Steinway's that were rebuilt by other "techs" and were delivered "sans wedge". I did just a Ron suggested. Let down tension to the point where the string coils still remain snug and the beckets stay in, drive with the side of a hammer a new wedge that is ground to fit the space, raise tension and tune. Good opportunity to go over string spacing which is no doubt poor as well. You can sometimes find the wedges sold for fitting ax handles will work.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431

Original Message:
Sent: 09-07-2016 15:21
From: Clarence Zeches
Subject: Steinway horn wedge

Larry:  Have you already installed the plate back into the Piano?  If not you might be able to lift the plate enough to reset the pin than drop the plate back into position.  Personally I think it is there for a purpose and needs to be reinstalled.

Clarence Zeches, RPT

------------------------------
Clarence Zeches
Piano Service Enterprise School of Technology
Toccoa GA
706-886-4035

Original Message:
Sent: 09-06-2016 19:51
From: Larry Fisher
Subject: Steinway horn wedge

There's a metal wedge that is found at the tenor break between the cast iron horn of the plate and the belly rail on this particular Steinway B.  Embedded in the belly rail is the metal mating surface.  This wedge has fallen out and when I tried to put it back in I found the fit to be quite tight  ........  tighter than I could muster with what tools I had to get it to stay in there sufficiently.  I'm expecting I'll have to try to locate a small machinists screw jack in there to get enough leverage to push it back up in there.  I know that if I were to take the tension down on all the strings this would go a lot easier but I'm trying to avoid that if I can.

 

Question one  .........  how critical is it that it be put back in there?

 

Question two  .........  any suggestions on a method to facilitate it's reinstallation?

 

Question three  ....    anyone experience plate failure due to this piece missing?

I also have done this in this manner. I let the tension down by turning the pins back about a quarter turn. This kept the coils tight and the becket in place. The strings are slack at this point and you don't have extra coil work when done. I still lift the coils and tap them down when up to tension. I also insure that the coils are tight around the pin by squeezing in at the becket and rotating the parallel pliers counter-clockwise a quarter turn (4 times), this helps to coax the wire around the pin.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Original Message:
Sent: 09-07-2016 19:38
From: Edward McMorrow
Subject: Steinway horn wedge

I have had to replace missing wedges in several Steinway's that were rebuilt by other "techs" and were delivered "sans wedge". I did just a Ron suggested. Let down tension to the point where the string coils still remain snug and the beckets stay in, drive with the side of a hammer a new wedge that is ground to fit the space, raise tension and tune. Good opportunity to go over string spacing which is no doubt poor as well. You can sometimes find the wedges sold for fitting ax handles will work.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431

Original Message:
Sent: 09-07-2016 15:21
From: Clarence Zeches
Subject: Steinway horn wedge

Larry:  Have you already installed the plate back into the Piano?  If not you might be able to lift the plate enough to reset the pin than drop the plate back into position.  Personally I think it is there for a purpose and needs to be reinstalled.

Clarence Zeches, RPT

------------------------------
Clarence Zeches
Piano Service Enterprise School of Technology
Toccoa GA
706-886-4035

Original Message:
Sent: 09-06-2016 19:51
From: Larry Fisher
Subject: Steinway horn wedge

There's a metal wedge that is found at the tenor break between the cast iron horn of the plate and the belly rail on this particular Steinway B.  Embedded in the belly rail is the metal mating surface.  This wedge has fallen out and when I tried to put it back in I found the fit to be quite tight  ........  tighter than I could muster with what tools I had to get it to stay in there sufficiently.  I'm expecting I'll have to try to locate a small machinists screw jack in there to get enough leverage to push it back up in there.  I know that if I were to take the tension down on all the strings this would go a lot easier but I'm trying to avoid that if I can.

 

Question one  .........  how critical is it that it be put back in there?

 

Question two  .........  any suggestions on a method to facilitate it's reinstallation?

 

Question three  ....    anyone experience plate failure due to this piece missing?