Pianotech

I'm looking for suggestions as to what is causing a piano to continuously go sharp immediately after tuning.  Here's a little background:  it's a rebuilt 1920 Steinway grand that sits in a large high school choir room.  I was called to tune it in early September.  It has a Dampp Chaser installed, but the pads hadn't been changed for a few years, I'm guessing, and were moldy, dry, and crusty so I changed them.  Prior to tuning it, it was 10-15 cents sharp.  The choir instructor told me the very next day after I tuned it that it sounded out of tune again.  (Another technician had tuned it in May and the same thing happened - it went out of tune the very next day.)  I was called in to retune it last week and found it 10-15 cents sharp again (not all notes, but probably 90% were sharp).  While I was finishing the tuning, I found that several of the notes that I had just tuned had gone sharp again.

Any ideas as to what's causing this and possible solutions would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks!

------------------------------
Elizabeth Hoenig
Winterset IA
515-770-1221
------------------------------

Elizabeth

Two things immediately come to mind. One, what happens to the HVAC system at night? Does the school turn off all units from 6 PM until 6 AM, in the hopes of saving money? The temperature rising each night will cause the board to expand.

The second reason might be a cracked plate. Look for signs of a cracked plate at all the joints. They might not be very big, so you got to look carefully. (How long ago was the piano rebuilt? Was it a reputable rebuilder? Was the plate refinished?)

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 10-14-2015 22:55
From: Elizabeth Hoenig
Subject: Piano keeps going sharp

I'm looking for suggestions as to what is causing a piano to continuously go sharp immediately after tuning.  Here's a little background:  it's a rebuilt 1920 Steinway grand that sits in a large high school choir room.  I was called to tune it in early September.  It has a Dampp Chaser installed, but the pads hadn't been changed for a few years, I'm guessing, and were moldy, dry, and crusty so I changed them.  Prior to tuning it, it was 10-15 cents sharp.  The choir instructor told me the very next day after I tuned it that it sounded out of tune again.  (Another technician had tuned it in May and the same thing happened - it went out of tune the very next day.)  I was called in to retune it last week and found it 10-15 cents sharp again (not all notes, but probably 90% were sharp).  While I was finishing the tuning, I found that several of the notes that I had just tuned had gone sharp again.

Any ideas as to what's causing this and possible solutions would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks!

------------------------------
Elizabeth Hoenig
Winterset IA
515-770-1221
------------------------------

I'm looking for suggestions as to what is causing a piano to continuously go sharp immediately after tuning.  Here's a little background:  it's a rebuilt 1920 Steinway grand that sits in a large high school choir room.  I was called to tune it in early September.  It has a Dampp Chaser installed, but the pads hadn't been changed for a few years, I'm guessing, and were moldy, dry, and crusty so I changed them.  Prior to tuning it, it was 10-15 cents sharp.  The choir instructor told me the very next day after I tuned it that it sounded out of tune again.  (Another technician had tuned it in May and the same thing happened - it went out of tune the very next day.)  I was called in to retune it last week and found it 10-15 cents sharp again (not all notes, but probably 90% were sharp).  While I was finishing the tuning, I found that several of the notes that I had just tuned had gone sharp again.

Any ideas as to what's causing this and possible solutions would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks!

------------------------------
Elizabeth Hoenig
Winterset IA
515-770-1221
------------------------------

I'm looking for suggestions as to what is causing a piano to continuously go sharp immediately after tuning.  Here's a little background:  it's a rebuilt 1920 Steinway grand that sits in a large high school choir room.  I was called to tune it in early September.  It has a Dampp Chaser installed, but the pads hadn't been changed for a few years, I'm guessing, and were moldy, dry, and crusty so I changed them.  Prior to tuning it, it was 10-15 cents sharp.  The choir instructor told me the very next day after I tuned it that it sounded out of tune again.  (Another technician had tuned it in May and the same thing happened - it went out of tune the very next day.)  I was called in to retune it last week and found it 10-15 cents sharp again (not all notes, but probably 90% were sharp).  While I was finishing the tuning, I found that several of the notes that I had just tuned had gone sharp again.

Any ideas as to what's causing this and possible solutions would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks!

------------------------------
Elizabeth Hoenig
Winterset IA
515-770-1221
------------------------------

Perhaps overly tight pins or soft-springy metal pins causing unwanted torsion in the pin. I sounds like a pin setting/string setting difficulty.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

I'm looking for suggestions as to what is causing a piano to continuously go sharp immediately after tuning.  Here's a little background:  it's a rebuilt 1920 Steinway grand that sits in a large high school choir room.  I was called to tune it in early September.  It has a Dampp Chaser installed, but the pads hadn't been changed for a few years, I'm guessing, and were moldy, dry, and crusty so I changed them.  Prior to tuning it, it was 10-15 cents sharp.  The choir instructor told me the very next day after I tuned it that it sounded out of tune again.  (Another technician had tuned it in May and the same thing happened - it went out of tune the very next day.)  I was called in to retune it last week and found it 10-15 cents sharp again (not all notes, but probably 90% were sharp).  While I was finishing the tuning, I found that several of the notes that I had just tuned had gone sharp again.

Any ideas as to what's causing this and possible solutions would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks!

------------------------------
Elizabeth Hoenig
Winterset IA
515-770-1221
------------------------------

I cannot see how a cracked plate or bad pinblock can cause a piano to go sharp after tuning. 

I think it likely the pin setting technique is leaving the torsion tension in the tuning pin and this is creeping out over time and that rising humidity overnight may also play a role. Wood takes on humidity much faster than it gives it up. 

If the tuning pins are too tight do what the factory does, turn the pins flat about 5 to 7 beats and back to pitch repeatedly to wear the hole until the pin torque becomes tunable. Then tune the piano.
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Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

Say it ain't so.... But could there be a problem with the damp chaser? 

Get a hydrometer and the customer keep their eye on it  

------------------------------
David Estey, RPT
www.EsteyPiano.com
Piano Tuners Sales Tips for the week. FREE! Sign up here:
http://coolstuffformusicians.com/fine-tuning-your-salesmanship
Creating Harmony in a World filled with Discord.
1-800-ON A PIANO (662-7426)
dave@esteypiano.com
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 10-15-2015 10:48
From: Edward McMorrow
Subject: Piano keeps going sharp

I cannot see how a cracked plate or bad pinblock can cause a piano to go sharp after tuning. 

I think it likely the pin setting technique is leaving the torsion tension in the tuning pin and this is creeping out over time and that rising humidity overnight may also play a role. Wood takes on humidity much faster than it gives it up. 

If the tuning pins are too tight do what the factory does, turn the pins flat about 5 to 7 beats and back to pitch repeatedly to wear the hole until the pin torque becomes tunable. Then tune the piano.
------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

I'm looking for suggestions as to what is causing a piano to continuously go sharp immediately after tuning.  Here's a little background:  it's a rebuilt 1920 Steinway grand that sits in a large high school choir room.  I was called to tune it in early September.  It has a Dampp Chaser installed, but the pads hadn't been changed for a few years, I'm guessing, and were moldy, dry, and crusty so I changed them.  Prior to tuning it, it was 10-15 cents sharp.  The choir instructor told me the very next day after I tuned it that it sounded out of tune again.  (Another technician had tuned it in May and the same thing happened - it went out of tune the very next day.)  I was called in to retune it last week and found it 10-15 cents sharp again (not all notes, but probably 90% were sharp).  While I was finishing the tuning, I found that several of the notes that I had just tuned had gone sharp again.

Any ideas as to what's causing this and possible solutions would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks!

------------------------------
Elizabeth Hoenig
Winterset IA
515-770-1221
------------------------------

Another cause for pin/string setting instability is flagpoling. I recently corrected a r/r S&S L. The piano was near impossible to tune due to flagpoling and excessive torsion in the pin caused by a very tight block. To solve this, I first drove the pins in deeper to have the coils the proper distance above the plate. Then I lowered the tension a half turn on all pins. All treble pins received 30 half-turns (back and forth -lowered more and back, that is) until a good torque was reached. The bass pins took 20 each. Then came rechipping, squeezing in the beckets and rotating pliers around the pin counter-clockwise to coax the coil tighter. It is a very nice piano to tune now and very stable.

Then came the action work to bring the touch weight from 80~60 to 50~46. It is now how the piano should have left the store in the first place.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

You get into a rhythm and repeat. Stretching every now and again. It took a day and then some, all in all abut 12 hours to get back to a stable piano.
------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Too much discussion with too little information. Elizabeth, get back to us, no judgement, just an opportunity to get better. 

If you tune on Monday, and Tuesday it is sharp 10-15 cents, when you retune it on Tuesday, is it 10-15 cents on Wednesday? 

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
608-518-2441
928-899-7292
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 10-15-2015 15:48
From: Jon Page
Subject: Piano keeps going sharp

You get into a rhythm and repeat. Stretching every now and again. It took a day and then some, all in all abut 12 hours to get back to a stable piano.
------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Larry's right, there isn't enough info.

Since you tuned it a few weeks after your first tuning, not the day after, the overall pitch probably rose over that period of time. The choir director saying it went out of tune the next day is likely to be a matter of some unisons, not change of pitch of the piano.

Getting the Dampp-Chaser unit back to humidifying might be a factor, but that depends on the conditions at that time: was it dry when you tuned? Of course, it could also be that the heating rod on the tank had been operating continuously, drying out the board, another factor. So the DC might be involved, but that is really just hypothetical. One big problem with institutions like schools is that the heating and cooling (and the associated RH) can be extremely erratic. HVAC systems move the air all the time, and they draw in some of their air from outside, so a change of weather is reflected very fast. Bottom line is that those situations produce very erratic and unpredictable tuning changes. If you could put a data-logger in the room, that would be very helpful, but until and unless you have a strong relationship with the school, that isn't really feasible.

The piano being recently rebuilt makes me suspect what others have been talking about, that the pins are overly tight. When you are lowering pitch with over tight pins, and with new strings, there can be a lot of pitch movement beyond where your target is (due to twist and flex of the pin), and it is quite difficult to feel the turning of the tuning pins in the block because of the effort needed to overcome the friction. So it is very easy to fool yourself into thinking you have moved the pitch enough, when much of what you have done is simply twisting and flexing the pin, moving the string to a temporary pitch.

Since you mention specific cents measurements, I assume you are using an ETD. When you think you have the pitch where you want it, you should always play the note a few times, forte (not brutally loud) and watch the display. Does it stay, or does it begin to wander? If it begins to wander, that is a good indication that the pin hasn't been turned to the correct spot.

------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
http://www.artoftuning.com
"We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 10-15-2015 15:56
From: Larry Messerly
Subject: Piano keeps going sharp

Too much discussion with too little information. Elizabeth, get back to us, no judgement, just an opportunity to get better. 

If you tune on Monday, and Tuesday it is sharp 10-15 cents, when you retune it on Tuesday, is it 10-15 cents on Wednesday? 

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
608-518-2441
928-899-7292
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 10-15-2015 15:48
From: Jon Page
Subject: Piano keeps going sharp

You get into a rhythm and repeat. Stretching every now and again. It took a day and then some, all in all abut 12 hours to get back to a stable piano.
------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

I would like to jump in and re-tweet (whatever that means) what Fred said. Not enough information. But, let me address some things that we apparently do know. There is no point in tuning a piano the same day as you fire up the DC System. This applies equally to a new installation or restarting a dormant System. You really are just wasting your time, the client's money, and ultimately risking your reputation. The client won't understand that your tuning may have been perfectly fine, but the piano went out of tune because of the addition of moisture to the board. You came in and tuned the piano, the piano immediately went out of tune, ergo you are a bad tuner. Perception becomes reality in their minds. It's hard to fault them for coming to this conclusion even if it is incorrect. We recommend tuning the piano 3 weeks after a System is activated to allow the piano enough time to completely acclimate. This is possibly longer than necessary, but better later than sooner. In your case it certainly sounds like the DC could be part of the "problem", but as Fred said, we don't have enough information to make that an absolute statement. If the DC on the piano is more than 15 years old or so, the 8W  humidifier heater bar could indeed have been on, further drying the board slightly. Also, as someone else mentioned, the piano can't keep going sharp continuously just because of the environment or the DC. The wood can only hold a certain amount of water. There must be other factors at play. The overly tight tuning pin theory makes a lot of sense, but none of us are there to feel for ourselves. Also, the fact that you're in Iowa makes me think the issue is not entirely DC related. You  are coming off the humid season, so the piano should be relatively well "watered". Even if the tank had been dry for ages, the environment in the school was likely quite humid since I'm sure they aren't running any AC to keep empty rooms cool in the summer. More assumptions though. 

Just some things to consider, or not if you don't feel like it. Like many have said, I think there is more than one factor in play.

I have a question about the three-week rule (which I've always tried to observe).  Would it be an issue if the RH in the room happened to be at or near 42 anyway?

The 3 week rule is essentially the "3 week helpful suggestion". It would seem to make sense that if the room already happens to be at or near the correct RH you could tune it sooner. But, keep in mind that just because a room is at the correct RH today, doesn't mean that it was yesterday or the day before or week/month before that. The time gap between installation and tuning is more of a money and reputation saver than anything. Like I mentioned in my previous post, in the customer's eyes, if they just paid a significant sum of money for the System and tuning and the piano immediately goes out of tune and sounds bad, of course their conclusion will be negative toward the tuner. 

I have often reminded impatient piano owners that there are few true piano emergencies. There's no harm in waiting a few weeks for a tuning. Life will go on. 

Sometimes when distance dictates that a tuning and a DC installation happen on the same day, I instruct the customer to activate the system at some point in the future.  If I'm in a humid season, I might suggest plugging it in and filling it when the humidity drops--for instance, when the furnace starts to kick in.  If I'm in a dry season, I'll have them plug it in, but not activate the humidifier until the tuning is beginning to deteriorate anyway, and a tuning date is approaching. 

To clarify a few issues:

1. The DC system was installed in 2006.  It was running and being maintained prior to the first time I tuned it, although no one before had ever told the choir director that the pads need to be changed periodically.  He also was not adding pad treatment to the water, if that matters (but he is now that I got him the treatment).


2. The piano was rebuilt approximately 25 years ago.  Someone who bid on the job told me that it was likely done by one of the best rebuilders in our area, who I believe is now deceased.


3. The pins aren't too tight; they accept an appropriate amount of torque, in my opinion.  I don't have any exact inch pounds measurement, but I'm estimating it's around 100 overall.  I didn't measure it because I didn't feel the pins were either too tight or too loose.


4. I am aware that a tuner should wait 3 weeks after installing a DC system before tuning, but I wasn't sure if just changing the pads would also require the waiting period in this case as they were in such bad shape and long overdue for replacement.  (Yes, I do know that normally we change them annually at the time of tuning.)  At any rate, I had expected that the month between the two tunings and pad change might make it go sharp if the dried-out pads that I replaced weren't circulating enough humidity, but I was surprised that it continued to go sharp even during the last tuning.


5. There was a question about unisons.  Practically everything went sharp between the two tunings, including the unisons.  The vast majority of the unisons were still mostly pure, although there were a few that were off by a few cents.


6. I'm not in a flood plain, but Iowa does get very humid during the summer.  However, it's been dry here for the past month of so with zero precipitation.  I'm not sure what schedule the school's HVAC system runs, but it could quite possibly be that they turned the AC off all summer.  That's something I could ask about.


7. The piano does not have a cover or an undercover.


8. I am on good terms with the school and am personal friends with the choir director, so I could possibly approach them about getting data readings for a period of time.  Their other option is mounting a capital campaign to replace the piano, so if I can save them that money I'm sure they wouldn't mind.


9. I'm not claiming, have never claimed, and will never claim to be the world's greatest piano tech.  However, the previous tech who tuned it just this past May is someone whom I respect as highly qualified and experienced.  I have played several other pianos that he has worked on and they are very well tuned and usually remain so for several months at least, including one that I play on a weekly basis in a large church sanctuary which I know for a fact sits by a drafty window with the HVAC off all week that is cranked up on Sunday; that tuning has held since Easter.  I guess it's possible he had an off day with the school's piano, but it seems unlikely to me.  Different piano, different situation, granted.  But like I said before, it was "out of tune" the day after he tuned it in May according to the choir director, and 10-15 cents sharp four months later when I saw the piano for the first time, the same as I found it after tuning it twice.


10. I probably missed a few questions or suggestions that you all have brought up.  I will reread the thread and address what I've missed later.

To clarify a few issues:

1. The DC system was installed in 2006.  It was running and being maintained prior to the first time I tuned it, although no one before had ever told the choir director that the pads need to be changed periodically.  He also was not adding pad treatment to the water, if that matters (but he is now that I got him the treatment).


2. The piano was rebuilt approximately 25 years ago.  Someone who bid on the job told me that it was likely done by one of the best rebuilders in our area, who I believe is now deceased.


3. The pins aren't too tight; they accept an appropriate amount of torque, in my opinion.  I don't have any exact inch pounds measurement, but I'm estimating it's around 100 overall.  I didn't measure it because I didn't feel the pins were either too tight or too loose.


4. I am aware that a tuner should wait 3 weeks after installing a DC system before tuning, but I wasn't sure if just changing the pads would also require the waiting period in this case as they were in such bad shape and long overdue for replacement.  (Yes, I do know that normally we change them annually at the time of tuning.)  At any rate, I had expected that the month between the two tunings and pad change might make it go sharp if the dried-out pads that I replaced weren't circulating enough humidity, but I was surprised that it continued to go sharp even during the last tuning.


5. There was a question about unisons.  Practically everything went sharp between the two tunings, including the unisons.  The vast majority of the unisons were still mostly pure, although there were a few that were off by a few cents.


6. I'm not in a flood plain, but Iowa does get very humid during the summer.  However, it's been dry here for the past month of so with zero precipitation.  I'm not sure what schedule the school's HVAC system runs, but it could quite possibly be that they turned the AC off all summer.  That's something I could ask about.


7. The piano does not have a cover or an undercover.


8. I am on good terms with the school and am personal friends with the choir director, so I could possibly approach them about getting data readings for a period of time.  Their other option is mounting a capital campaign to replace the piano, so if I can save them that money I'm sure they wouldn't mind.


9. I'm not claiming, have never claimed, and will never claim to be the world's greatest piano tech.  However, the previous tech who tuned it just this past May is someone whom I respect as highly qualified and experienced.  I have played several other pianos that he has worked on and they are very well tuned and usually remain so for several months at least, including one that I play on a weekly basis in a large church sanctuary which I know for a fact sits by a drafty window with the HVAC off all week that is cranked up on Sunday; that tuning has held since Easter.  I guess it's possible he had an off day with the school's piano, but it seems unlikely to me.  Different piano, different situation, granted.  But like I said before, it was "out of tune" the day after he tuned it in May according to the choir director, and 10-15 cents sharp four months later when I saw the piano for the first time, the same as I found it after tuning it twice.


10. I probably missed a few questions or suggestions that you all have brought up.  I will reread the thread and address what I've missed later.

To clarify a few issues:

1. The DC system was installed in 2006.  It was running and being maintained prior to the first time I tuned it, although no one before had ever told the choir director that the pads need to be changed periodically.  He also was not adding pad treatment to the water, if that matters (but he is now that I got him the treatment).


2. The piano was rebuilt approximately 25 years ago.  Someone who bid on the job told me that it was likely done by one of the best rebuilders in our area, who I believe is now deceased.


3. The pins aren't too tight; they accept an appropriate amount of torque, in my opinion.  I don't have any exact inch pounds measurement, but I'm estimating it's around 100 overall.  I didn't measure it because I didn't feel the pins were either too tight or too loose.


4. I am aware that a tuner should wait 3 weeks after installing a DC system before tuning, but I wasn't sure if just changing the pads would also require the waiting period in this case as they were in such bad shape and long overdue for replacement.  (Yes, I do know that normally we change them annually at the time of tuning.)  At any rate, I had expected that the month between the two tunings and pad change might make it go sharp if the dried-out pads that I replaced weren't circulating enough humidity, but I was surprised that it continued to go sharp even during the last tuning.


5. There was a question about unisons.  Practically everything went sharp between the two tunings, including the unisons.  The vast majority of the unisons were still mostly pure, although there were a few that were off by a few cents.


6. I'm not in a flood plain, but Iowa does get very humid during the summer.  However, it's been dry here for the past month of so with zero precipitation.  I'm not sure what schedule the school's HVAC system runs, but it could quite possibly be that they turned the AC off all summer.  That's something I could ask about.


7. The piano does not have a cover or an undercover.


8. I am on good terms with the school and am personal friends with the choir director, so I could possibly approach them about getting data readings for a period of time.  Their other option is mounting a capital campaign to replace the piano, so if I can save them that money I'm sure they wouldn't mind.


9. I'm not claiming, have never claimed, and will never claim to be the world's greatest piano tech.  However, the previous tech who tuned it just this past May is someone whom I respect as highly qualified and experienced.  I have played several other pianos that he has worked on and they are very well tuned and usually remain so for several months at least, including one that I play on a weekly basis in a large church sanctuary which I know for a fact sits by a drafty window with the HVAC off all week that is cranked up on Sunday; that tuning has held since Easter.  I guess it's possible he had an off day with the school's piano, but it seems unlikely to me.  Different piano, different situation, granted.  But like I said before, it was "out of tune" the day after he tuned it in May according to the choir director, and 10-15 cents sharp four months later when I saw the piano for the first time, the same as I found it after tuning it twice.


10. I probably missed a few questions or suggestions that you all have brought up.  I will reread the thread and address what I've missed later.

To clarify a few issues:

1. The DC system was installed in 2006.  It was running and being maintained prior to the first time I tuned it, although no one before had ever told the choir director that the pads need to be changed periodically.  He also was not adding pad treatment to the water, if that matters (but he is now that I got him the treatment).


2. The piano was rebuilt approximately 25 years ago.  Someone who bid on the job told me that it was likely done by one of the best rebuilders in our area, who I believe is now deceased.


3. The pins aren't too tight; they accept an appropriate amount of torque, in my opinion.  I don't have any exact inch pounds measurement, but I'm estimating it's around 100 overall.  I didn't measure it because I didn't feel the pins were either too tight or too loose.


4. I am aware that a tuner should wait 3 weeks after installing a DC system before tuning, but I wasn't sure if just changing the pads would also require the waiting period in this case as they were in such bad shape and long overdue for replacement.  (Yes, I do know that normally we change them annually at the time of tuning.)  At any rate, I had expected that the month between the two tunings and pad change might make it go sharp if the dried-out pads that I replaced weren't circulating enough humidity, but I was surprised that it continued to go sharp even during the last tuning.


5. There was a question about unisons.  Practically everything went sharp between the two tunings, including the unisons.  The vast majority of the unisons were still mostly pure, although there were a few that were off by a few cents.


6. I'm not in a flood plain, but Iowa does get very humid during the summer.  However, it's been dry here for the past month of so with zero precipitation.  I'm not sure what schedule the school's HVAC system runs, but it could quite possibly be that they turned the AC off all summer.  That's something I could ask about.


7. The piano does not have a cover or an undercover.


8. I am on good terms with the school and am personal friends with the choir director, so I could possibly approach them about getting data readings for a period of time.  Their other option is mounting a capital campaign to replace the piano, so if I can save them that money I'm sure they wouldn't mind.


9. I'm not claiming, have never claimed, and will never claim to be the world's greatest piano tech.  However, the previous tech who tuned it just this past May is someone whom I respect as highly qualified and experienced.  I have played several other pianos that he has worked on and they are very well tuned and usually remain so for several months at least, including one that I play on a weekly basis in a large church sanctuary which I know for a fact sits by a drafty window with the HVAC off all week that is cranked up on Sunday; that tuning has held since Easter.  I guess it's possible he had an off day with the school's piano, but it seems unlikely to me.  Different piano, different situation, granted.  But like I said before, it was "out of tune" the day after he tuned it in May according to the choir director, and 10-15 cents sharp four months later when I saw the piano for the first time, the same as I found it after tuning it twice.


10. I probably missed a few questions or suggestions that you all have brought up.  I will reread the thread and address what I've missed later.

When you change tension, the pitch has a tendency to revert back when all is changed. The bass will revert about 10%, mid section 25% and the treble 33+%. So if it were 15c sharp and you lowered it to 440, it would rebound about 4c in the middle. Did you do a pitch correction and then tune it? Pitch drift such as that is usually a result of pitch change or hammer technique. Some pianos require a particular hammer technique.

To clarify a few issues:

1. The DC system was installed in 2006.  It was running and being maintained prior to the first time I tuned it, although no one before had ever told the choir director that the pads need to be changed periodically.  He also was not adding pad treatment to the water, if that matters (but he is now that I got him the treatment).


2. The piano was rebuilt approximately 25 years ago.  Someone who bid on the job told me that it was likely done by one of the best rebuilders in our area, who I believe is now deceased.


3. The pins aren't too tight; they accept an appropriate amount of torque, in my opinion.  I don't have any exact inch pounds measurement, but I'm estimating it's around 100 overall.  I didn't measure it because I didn't feel the pins were either too tight or too loose.


4. I am aware that a tuner should wait 3 weeks after installing a DC system before tuning, but I wasn't sure if just changing the pads would also require the waiting period in this case as they were in such bad shape and long overdue for replacement.  (Yes, I do know that normally we change them annually at the time of tuning.)  At any rate, I had expected that the month between the two tunings and pad change might make it go sharp if the dried-out pads that I replaced weren't circulating enough humidity, but I was surprised that it continued to go sharp even during the last tuning.


5. There was a question about unisons.  Practically everything went sharp between the two tunings, including the unisons.  The vast majority of the unisons were still mostly pure, although there were a few that were off by a few cents.


6. I'm not in a flood plain, but Iowa does get very humid during the summer.  However, it's been dry here for the past month of so with zero precipitation.  I'm not sure what schedule the school's HVAC system runs, but it could quite possibly be that they turned the AC off all summer.  That's something I could ask about.


7. The piano does not have a cover or an undercover.


8. I am on good terms with the school and am personal friends with the choir director, so I could possibly approach them about getting data readings for a period of time.  Their other option is mounting a capital campaign to replace the piano, so if I can save them that money I'm sure they wouldn't mind.


9. I'm not claiming, have never claimed, and will never claim to be the world's greatest piano tech.  However, the previous tech who tuned it just this past May is someone whom I respect as highly qualified and experienced.  I have played several other pianos that he has worked on and they are very well tuned and usually remain so for several months at least, including one that I play on a weekly basis in a large church sanctuary which I know for a fact sits by a drafty window with the HVAC off all week that is cranked up on Sunday; that tuning has held since Easter.  I guess it's possible he had an off day with the school's piano, but it seems unlikely to me.  Different piano, different situation, granted.  But like I said before, it was "out of tune" the day after he tuned it in May according to the choir director, and 10-15 cents sharp four months later when I saw the piano for the first time, the same as I found it after tuning it twice.


10. I probably missed a few questions or suggestions that you all have brought up.  I will reread the thread and address what I've missed later.

   The piano was rebuilt 25 years ago so it has had a lot of time to adjust to the location and the pins would not be overly tight one would think.

   Treatment should be added to the water to add the electrolytes needed and reduce scaling etc.

   You may want to think about a new humidistat and a field upgrade kit as well as an undercover. I just did that on a Yamaha C7 that had the humidistat way back. The schematics show the humidistat location on the other side of the beam from the tank. Of course this is the newer H5 model humidistat with the 3 panel led and phone and earphone type jacks on the bottom of the unit.

  Tuning pin torque readings require an inch lb torque wrench. While pins feel tight you will know exactly if there is a problem. I had a Chickering rebuild here I tuned and the mid to high treble had looser pins probably due to overheated/dulled drill bits.

  HVAC could be the real culprit because it was off and rh was high. A data logger is worth because most

churches, schools and homeowners want to "save" on the electric bill.

  You may want to try seating and levelling the strings . If you do not know how to do that do some research in the journal or ask your chapter of the PTG to do a technical on it.

   Maybe I missed it but if the piano was 10 to 15 cents sharp did you pitch lower it first ?