Pianotech

I understand that much of a pianos design is based on efficiency of space and materials. Maximum use of space with minimum use of materials with as little compromise as possible on desired tone and performance. That said, has anyone ever built a piano using a baby grand plate and strings but a larger grand case and soundboard? I ask because I find smaller pianos, with their shorter strings and subsequent less color, easier to listen to but I am also curious what that smaller plate and strings might sound like on a much larger soundboard. Anyone ever tried that combination?

I look forward to your comments. Or ridicule as the case may be. :-)

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Didn't Austin Weight make studio piano with a soundboard that extended to the top, but the plate and strings were a console size. I only tuned a couple of them a long time ago, but I can't say it sounded that much better than a regulation style console.

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-06-2019 01:14
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Naive design question

I understand that much of a pianos design is based on efficiency of space and materials. Maximum use of space with minimum use of materials with as little compromise as possible on desired tone and performance. That said, has anyone ever built a piano using a baby grand plate and strings but a larger grand case and soundboard? I ask because I find smaller pianos, with their shorter strings and subsequent less color, easier to listen to but I am also curious what that smaller plate and strings might sound like on a much larger soundboard. Anyone ever tried that combination?

I look forward to your comments. Or ridicule as the case may be. :-)

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message------

I understand that much of a pianos design is based on efficiency of space and materials. Maximum use of space with minimum use of materials with as little compromise as possible on desired tone and performance. That said, has anyone ever built a piano using a baby grand plate and strings but a larger grand case and soundboard? I ask because I find smaller pianos, with their shorter strings and subsequent less color, easier to listen to but I am also curious what that smaller plate and strings might sound like on a much larger soundboard. Anyone ever tried that combination?

I look forward to your comments. Or ridicule as the case may be. :-)

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Thanks for the reply, Del --

Three people have told me since I posted this question that you are THE person to ask about this. Between the PTG Journal CD's and the Journal online I should be able to find it. But if I can't I will let you know. 

Thanks!

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-07-2019 21:53
From: Delwin Fandrich
Subject: Naive design question

I refer you to the article I published in the PTG Journal titled, "Where Do We Go From Here?"

If you can't find it send me an email and I send you a PDF copy. 

ddf

--

Delwin D Fandrich

Fandrich Piano Company, Inc.

Piano Design and Manufacturing Consulting Services -- Worldwide

6939 Foothill Ct SW -- Olympia, WA 98512 -- USA

Phone 360.515.0119 -- Mobile 360.388.6525

Original Message------

I understand that much of a pianos design is based on efficiency of space and materials. Maximum use of space with minimum use of materials with as little compromise as possible on desired tone and performance. That said, has anyone ever built a piano using a baby grand plate and strings but a larger grand case and soundboard? I ask because I find smaller pianos, with their shorter strings and subsequent less color, easier to listen to but I am also curious what that smaller plate and strings might sound like on a much larger soundboard. Anyone ever tried that combination?

I look forward to your comments. Or ridicule as the case may be. :-)

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message------

Thanks for the reply, Del --

Three people have told me since I posted this question that you are THE person to ask about this. Between the PTG Journal CD's and the Journal online I should be able to find it. But if I can't I will let you know. 

Thanks!

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Geoff,

PT Journal, April 2013, Page 22.

Paul.

------------------------------
Paul Brown, RPT
President
Piano Technicians Guild
Vancouver, BC Canada
Email: pres@ptg.org
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-07-2019 22:24
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Naive design question

Thanks for the reply, Del --

Three people have told me since I posted this question that you are THE person to ask about this. Between the PTG Journal CD's and the Journal online I should be able to find it. But if I can't I will let you know.

Thanks!

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 06-07-2019 21:53
From: Delwin Fandrich
Subject: Naive design question

I refer you to the article I published in the PTG Journal titled, "Where Do We Go From Here?"

If you can't find it send me an email and I send you a PDF copy. 

ddf

--

Delwin D Fandrich

Fandrich Piano Company, Inc.

Piano Design and Manufacturing Consulting Services -- Worldwide

6939 Foothill Ct SW -- Olympia, WA 98512 -- USA

Phone 360.515.0119 -- Mobile 360.388.6525

Original Message------

I understand that much of a pianos design is based on efficiency of space and materials. Maximum use of space with minimum use of materials with as little compromise as possible on desired tone and performance. That said, has anyone ever built a piano using a baby grand plate and strings but a larger grand case and soundboard? I ask because I find smaller pianos, with their shorter strings and subsequent less color, easier to listen to but I am also curious what that smaller plate and strings might sound like on a much larger soundboard. Anyone ever tried that combination?

I look forward to your comments. Or ridicule as the case may be. :-)

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Thanks for the tip on the Journal article. I just finished reading it and remember reading it when it was first published. Several of your comments in the article got me to thinking a bit more about my question and I realized that I may have asked the wrong question. (I told you it was a naive question.) And after a little more thinking I began to understand that current soundboard, plate, bridge and string design is less about optimization of space and materials, as I was thinking when I posed my question, and more about best mechanical and acoustical transfers of energy. Hammers hit the strings at an optimal point to get them vibrating with the most efficiency and best tone. Any other spot on the string would not perform as well as can be easily noticed in the high treble section when hammers are even a tiny bit off. The same thing, now obvious to me, holds true in soundboard design. The placement of the bridge on the soundboard is in about the same zone, relative to length, that the hammer is when it strikes the string. It is only in that spot where the most efficient transfer of energy is going to happen. Making the soundboard larger simply to be larger, and not moving the bridge accordingly, can do nothing but diminish the efficient transfer of energy. I'm glad I posted this question as I actually learned a lot. Thanks!

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-07-2019 21:53
From: Delwin Fandrich
Subject: Naive design question

I refer you to the article I published in the PTG Journal titled, "Where Do We Go From Here?"

If you can't find it send me an email and I send you a PDF copy. 

ddf

--

Delwin D Fandrich

Fandrich Piano Company, Inc.

Piano Design and Manufacturing Consulting Services -- Worldwide

6939 Foothill Ct SW -- Olympia, WA 98512 -- USA

Phone 360.515.0119 -- Mobile 360.388.6525

Original Message------

I understand that much of a pianos design is based on efficiency of space and materials. Maximum use of space with minimum use of materials with as little compromise as possible on desired tone and performance. That said, has anyone ever built a piano using a baby grand plate and strings but a larger grand case and soundboard? I ask because I find smaller pianos, with their shorter strings and subsequent less color, easier to listen to but I am also curious what that smaller plate and strings might sound like on a much larger soundboard. Anyone ever tried that combination?

I look forward to your comments. Or ridicule as the case may be. :-)

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Relative to Geoff's idea that the hammer strike point was chosen for the best production of sound, I was told long ago in my apprentice phase that hammer strike point, indeed the very shape and scale of the piano with its straight strike line and swooping bridge line was to enable the hammer to strike at a point that struck the node of the 7th harmonic in order to suppress it as much as possible. It made sense to me, what with the 7th harmonic having wandered so far from being "in tune."

------------------------------
David Trasoff
Professional Piano Service
323-255-7783
david@professionalpianoservice.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-08-2019 17:13
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Naive design question

Thanks for the tip on the Journal article. I just finished reading it and remember reading it when it was first published. Several of your comments in the article got me to thinking a bit more about my question and I realized that I may have asked the wrong question. (I told you it was a naive question.) And after a little more thinking I began to understand that current soundboard, plate, bridge and string design is less about optimization of space and materials, as I was thinking when I posed my question, and more about best mechanical and acoustical transfers of energy. Hammers hit the strings at an optimal point to get them vibrating with the most efficiency and best tone. Any other spot on the string would not perform as well as can be easily noticed in the high treble section when hammers are even a tiny bit off. The same thing, now obvious to me, holds true in soundboard design. The placement of the bridge on the soundboard is in about the same zone, relative to length, that the hammer is when it strikes the string. It is only in that spot where the most efficient transfer of energy is going to happen. Making the soundboard larger simply to be larger, and not moving the bridge accordingly, can do nothing but diminish the efficient transfer of energy. I'm glad I posted this question as I actually learned a lot. Thanks!

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 06-07-2019 21:53
From: Delwin Fandrich
Subject: Naive design question

I refer you to the article I published in the PTG Journal titled, "Where Do We Go From Here?"

If you can't find it send me an email and I send you a PDF copy. 

ddf

--

Delwin D Fandrich

Fandrich Piano Company, Inc.

Piano Design and Manufacturing Consulting Services -- Worldwide

6939 Foothill Ct SW -- Olympia, WA 98512 -- USA

Phone 360.515.0119 -- Mobile 360.388.6525

Original Message------

I understand that much of a pianos design is based on efficiency of space and materials. Maximum use of space with minimum use of materials with as little compromise as possible on desired tone and performance. That said, has anyone ever built a piano using a baby grand plate and strings but a larger grand case and soundboard? I ask because I find smaller pianos, with their shorter strings and subsequent less color, easier to listen to but I am also curious what that smaller plate and strings might sound like on a much larger soundboard. Anyone ever tried that combination?

I look forward to your comments. Or ridicule as the case may be. :-)

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

A neat experiment to understand hammer strike point. Find a metal rod, or tube of about three or feet long. Measure it and divide that length by 7. Hold the rod at 1/7th the length and tap the rod. It will sing. Move that holding point a little bit up or down and the sound will be noticeably muted. That 1/7th point is a null point where most waveforms in the rod are at the same partial at the same time. By holding it at that null point you are able hold it without causing any damping effect because all of the waveforms are simultaneously at 0. 1/8th of that measured length, on the other hand, is essentially the point where all those same waveforms are at, or close to, their peak at the same time. Therefore, actually striking the string, or the rod in this experiment, at 1/7th the length will produce almost no tone at all whereas striking it at the 1/8th point will energize almost all of the partials. Both points are pretty much undesirable strike points. As I understand it, the strike point of the hammer at the string is somewhere in between that 1/7th/1/8th point so that it energized more of the desirable partials and less of the undesirable ones. As I thought through my original question, and my Aha! realization, it was this understanding that allowed me to understand why the bridge is located where it is on the soundboard. 

The comments on extending the backscale elements so that the bridge can move more freely is, I think, a closer idea to what I was trying to imagine when I posted my original question.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-09-2019 14:01
From: David Trasoff
Subject: Naive design question

Relative to Geoff's idea that the hammer strike point was chosen for the best production of sound, I was told long ago in my apprentice phase that hammer strike point, indeed the very shape and scale of the piano with its straight strike line and swooping bridge line was to enable the hammer to strike at a point that struck the node of the 7th harmonic in order to suppress it as much as possible. It made sense to me, what with the 7th harmonic having wandered so far from being "in tune."

------------------------------
David Trasoff
Professional Piano Service
323-255-7783
david@professionalpianoservice.com

Original Message:
Sent: 06-08-2019 17:13
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Naive design question

Thanks for the tip on the Journal article. I just finished reading it and remember reading it when it was first published. Several of your comments in the article got me to thinking a bit more about my question and I realized that I may have asked the wrong question. (I told you it was a naive question.) And after a little more thinking I began to understand that current soundboard, plate, bridge and string design is less about optimization of space and materials, as I was thinking when I posed my question, and more about best mechanical and acoustical transfers of energy. Hammers hit the strings at an optimal point to get them vibrating with the most efficiency and best tone. Any other spot on the string would not perform as well as can be easily noticed in the high treble section when hammers are even a tiny bit off. The same thing, now obvious to me, holds true in soundboard design. The placement of the bridge on the soundboard is in about the same zone, relative to length, that the hammer is when it strikes the string. It is only in that spot where the most efficient transfer of energy is going to happen. Making the soundboard larger simply to be larger, and not moving the bridge accordingly, can do nothing but diminish the efficient transfer of energy. I'm glad I posted this question as I actually learned a lot. Thanks!

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 06-07-2019 21:53
From: Delwin Fandrich
Subject: Naive design question

I refer you to the article I published in the PTG Journal titled, "Where Do We Go From Here?"

If you can't find it send me an email and I send you a PDF copy. 

ddf

--

Delwin D Fandrich

Fandrich Piano Company, Inc.

Piano Design and Manufacturing Consulting Services -- Worldwide

6939 Foothill Ct SW -- Olympia, WA 98512 -- USA

Phone 360.515.0119 -- Mobile 360.388.6525

Original Message------

I understand that much of a pianos design is based on efficiency of space and materials. Maximum use of space with minimum use of materials with as little compromise as possible on desired tone and performance. That said, has anyone ever built a piano using a baby grand plate and strings but a larger grand case and soundboard? I ask because I find smaller pianos, with their shorter strings and subsequent less color, easier to listen to but I am also curious what that smaller plate and strings might sound like on a much larger soundboard. Anyone ever tried that combination?

I look forward to your comments. Or ridicule as the case may be. :-)

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

There are several different pianos that have been made with different types of soundboard designs and features. Although not a grand Mehlin made an upright grand that had a grand piano plate in it and also did some things on the back of the soundboard. They also had a grand that was designed with a cut out in the soundboard and the plate and bridges had a unique structural design using a bridge with cutouts and the tail end of the plate higher than the the tuning pin end. It was built using concepts from violin designs. I have seen both here.
There is also a piano that had multiple levels of sound boards in it . I think it was Hempe and another that had two. If I come across the names I will post them. I have come across some smaller pianos that sound quite good even though grands that are under 5 foot seem to not thought os well. Looking through some old music trade reviews I came across a grand that was under 4 ' . Not sure many of those got made or are still around .

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-06-2019 01:14
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Naive design question

I understand that much of a pianos design is based on efficiency of space and materials. Maximum use of space with minimum use of materials with as little compromise as possible on desired tone and performance. That said, has anyone ever built a piano using a baby grand plate and strings but a larger grand case and soundboard? I ask because I find smaller pianos, with their shorter strings and subsequent less color, easier to listen to but I am also curious what that smaller plate and strings might sound like on a much larger soundboard. Anyone ever tried that combination?

I look forward to your comments. Or ridicule as the case may be. :-)

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

I once saw a Chickering grand with an extremely long back scale, the segments between the bridge and the plate were at least double anything I've seen, particularly in the bass. This foreshortened the string scale relative to the soundboard size quite a bit. It had a beautiful rosewood victorian cabinet, I'd guess it to be turn of the century.
Don't ask me how it sounded, it was in such bad shape I turned it over to a rebuilder immediately. The work was done and the neither the rebuilder nor I ever heard from the lady again. It was for decoration I guess.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-08-2019 11:37
From: James Kelly
Subject: Naive design question

There are several different pianos that have been made with different types of soundboard designs and features. Although not a grand Mehlin made an upright grand that had a grand piano plate in it and also did some things on the back of the soundboard. They also had a grand that was designed with a cut out in the soundboard and the plate and bridges had a unique structural design using a bridge with cutouts and the tail end of the plate higher than the the tuning pin end. It was built using concepts from violin designs. I have seen both here.
There is also a piano that had multiple levels of sound boards in it . I think it was Hempe and another that had two. If I come across the names I will post them. I have come across some smaller pianos that sound quite good even though grands that are under 5 foot seem to not thought os well. Looking through some old music trade reviews I came across a grand that was under 4 ' . Not sure many of those got made or are still around .

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 06-06-2019 01:14
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Naive design question

I understand that much of a pianos design is based on efficiency of space and materials. Maximum use of space with minimum use of materials with as little compromise as possible on desired tone and performance. That said, has anyone ever built a piano using a baby grand plate and strings but a larger grand case and soundboard? I ask because I find smaller pianos, with their shorter strings and subsequent less color, easier to listen to but I am also curious what that smaller plate and strings might sound like on a much larger soundboard. Anyone ever tried that combination?

I look forward to your comments. Or ridicule as the case may be. :-)

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Steven R. wrote: I once saw a Chickering grand with an extremely long back scale, the segments between the bridge and the plate were at least double anything I've seen, particularly in the bass. This foreshortened the string scale relative to the soundboard size quite a bit.

Foreshortened bass string length? It sounds to me like I'm hearing a critical tone in that statement (maybe I'm wrong???). Relative to most modern piano designs, it is often quite beneficial to sacrifice some string speaking length to gain some backscale length. This tends to let the bass bridge vibrate more freely rather than be tied down to the plate by a too-short backscale. The longer backscale will also move the bass bridge away from the rim and allow the bass bridge be mounted directly onto the soundboard rather than mounted on a cantilever - again improving the efficiency of energy transfer from the strings to the soundboard.

Del? My guess is you could write a book on this issue!

------------------------------
Terry Farrell
Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
Brandon, Florida
terry@farrellpiano.com
813-684-3505
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-08-2019 16:56
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: Naive design question

I once saw a Chickering grand with an extremely long back scale, the segments between the bridge and the plate were at least double anything I've seen, particularly in the bass. This foreshortened the string scale relative to the soundboard size quite a bit. It had a beautiful rosewood victorian cabinet, I'd guess it to be turn of the century.
Don't ask me how it sounded, it was in such bad shape I turned it over to a rebuilder immediately. The work was done and the neither the rebuilder nor I ever heard from the lady again. It was for decoration I guess.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 06-08-2019 11:37
From: James Kelly
Subject: Naive design question

There are several different pianos that have been made with different types of soundboard designs and features. Although not a grand Mehlin made an upright grand that had a grand piano plate in it and also did some things on the back of the soundboard. They also had a grand that was designed with a cut out in the soundboard and the plate and bridges had a unique structural design using a bridge with cutouts and the tail end of the plate higher than the the tuning pin end. It was built using concepts from violin designs. I have seen both here.
There is also a piano that had multiple levels of sound boards in it . I think it was Hempe and another that had two. If I come across the names I will post them. I have come across some smaller pianos that sound quite good even though grands that are under 5 foot seem to not thought os well. Looking through some old music trade reviews I came across a grand that was under 4 ' . Not sure many of those got made or are still around .

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 06-06-2019 01:14
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Naive design question

I understand that much of a pianos design is based on efficiency of space and materials. Maximum use of space with minimum use of materials with as little compromise as possible on desired tone and performance. That said, has anyone ever built a piano using a baby grand plate and strings but a larger grand case and soundboard? I ask because I find smaller pianos, with their shorter strings and subsequent less color, easier to listen to but I am also curious what that smaller plate and strings might sound like on a much larger soundboard. Anyone ever tried that combination?

I look forward to your comments. Or ridicule as the case may be. :-)

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Adding to Terry's take...In addition to backscale considerations, I will shorten parts of certain small piano bass scales, often the high end of the bass, to reorient the bass bridge so swings closer to parallel to the grain lines of the board. In small pianos, the bass can often be pretty darn close to crossgrain to the panel, turning the bass bridge into an unintentional, honking, unhelpful beam. The dance between  board grain angle and bridge(s) orientation, relative to the panel grain has given me really one of my biggest bangs for the buck in small piano belly design.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-09-2019 06:36
From: Terrence Farrell
Subject: Naive design question

Steven R. wrote: I once saw a Chickering grand with an extremely long back scale, the segments between the bridge and the plate were at least double anything I've seen, particularly in the bass. This foreshortened the string scale relative to the soundboard size quite a bit.

Foreshortened bass string length? It sounds to me like I'm hearing a critical tone in that statement (maybe I'm wrong???). Relative to most modern piano designs, it is often quite beneficial to sacrifice some string speaking length to gain some backscale length. This tends to let the bass bridge vibrate more freely rather than be tied down to the plate by a too-short backscale. The longer backscale will also move the bass bridge away from the rim and allow the bass bridge be mounted directly onto the soundboard rather than mounted on a cantilever - again improving the efficiency of energy transfer from the strings to the soundboard.

Del? My guess is you could write a book on this issue!

------------------------------
Terry Farrell
Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
Brandon, Florida
terry@farrellpiano.com
813-684-3505

Original Message:
Sent: 06-08-2019 16:56
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: Naive design question

I once saw a Chickering grand with an extremely long back scale, the segments between the bridge and the plate were at least double anything I've seen, particularly in the bass. This foreshortened the string scale relative to the soundboard size quite a bit. It had a beautiful rosewood victorian cabinet, I'd guess it to be turn of the century.
Don't ask me how it sounded, it was in such bad shape I turned it over to a rebuilder immediately. The work was done and the neither the rebuilder nor I ever heard from the lady again. It was for decoration I guess.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 06-08-2019 11:37
From: James Kelly
Subject: Naive design question

There are several different pianos that have been made with different types of soundboard designs and features. Although not a grand Mehlin made an upright grand that had a grand piano plate in it and also did some things on the back of the soundboard. They also had a grand that was designed with a cut out in the soundboard and the plate and bridges had a unique structural design using a bridge with cutouts and the tail end of the plate higher than the the tuning pin end. It was built using concepts from violin designs. I have seen both here.
There is also a piano that had multiple levels of sound boards in it . I think it was Hempe and another that had two. If I come across the names I will post them. I have come across some smaller pianos that sound quite good even though grands that are under 5 foot seem to not thought os well. Looking through some old music trade reviews I came across a grand that was under 4 ' . Not sure many of those got made or are still around .

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 06-06-2019 01:14
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Naive design question

I understand that much of a pianos design is based on efficiency of space and materials. Maximum use of space with minimum use of materials with as little compromise as possible on desired tone and performance. That said, has anyone ever built a piano using a baby grand plate and strings but a larger grand case and soundboard? I ask because I find smaller pianos, with their shorter strings and subsequent less color, easier to listen to but I am also curious what that smaller plate and strings might sound like on a much larger soundboard. Anyone ever tried that combination?

I look forward to your comments. Or ridicule as the case may be. :-)

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

The newest information to incorporate into your piano design elements cookbook must include considerations of how Longitudinal mode energy is coupled to the Transverse modes. Many false beats and false sounding trebles are caused by this, it is not just loose bridge pins.

I have experimented with modifications that reduce the ability of L-mode to "destroy" T-modes. This leads me to conclude that even though these L-modes are above the audible range, they profoundly affect how good a piano sounds, more so than inharmonicity I think.

It is a whole new piano world now. But who cares?

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-09-2019 10:29
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Naive design question

Adding to Terry's take...In addition to backscale considerations, I will shorten parts of certain small piano bass scales, often the high end of the bass, to reorient the bass bridge so swings closer to parallel to the grain lines of the board. In small pianos, the bass can often be pretty darn close to crossgrain to the panel, turning the bass bridge into an unintentional, honking, unhelpful beam. The dance between  board grain angle and bridge(s) orientation, relative to the panel grain has given me really one of my biggest bangs for the buck in small piano belly design.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 06-09-2019 06:36
From: Terrence Farrell
Subject: Naive design question

Steven R. wrote: I once saw a Chickering grand with an extremely long back scale, the segments between the bridge and the plate were at least double anything I've seen, particularly in the bass. This foreshortened the string scale relative to the soundboard size quite a bit.

Foreshortened bass string length? It sounds to me like I'm hearing a critical tone in that statement (maybe I'm wrong???). Relative to most modern piano designs, it is often quite beneficial to sacrifice some string speaking length to gain some backscale length. This tends to let the bass bridge vibrate more freely rather than be tied down to the plate by a too-short backscale. The longer backscale will also move the bass bridge away from the rim and allow the bass bridge be mounted directly onto the soundboard rather than mounted on a cantilever - again improving the efficiency of energy transfer from the strings to the soundboard.

Del? My guess is you could write a book on this issue!

------------------------------
Terry Farrell
Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
Brandon, Florida
terry@farrellpiano.com
813-684-3505

Original Message:
Sent: 06-08-2019 16:56
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: Naive design question

I once saw a Chickering grand with an extremely long back scale, the segments between the bridge and the plate were at least double anything I've seen, particularly in the bass. This foreshortened the string scale relative to the soundboard size quite a bit. It had a beautiful rosewood victorian cabinet, I'd guess it to be turn of the century.
Don't ask me how it sounded, it was in such bad shape I turned it over to a rebuilder immediately. The work was done and the neither the rebuilder nor I ever heard from the lady again. It was for decoration I guess.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 06-08-2019 11:37
From: James Kelly
Subject: Naive design question

There are several different pianos that have been made with different types of soundboard designs and features. Although not a grand Mehlin made an upright grand that had a grand piano plate in it and also did some things on the back of the soundboard. They also had a grand that was designed with a cut out in the soundboard and the plate and bridges had a unique structural design using a bridge with cutouts and the tail end of the plate higher than the the tuning pin end. It was built using concepts from violin designs. I have seen both here.
There is also a piano that had multiple levels of sound boards in it . I think it was Hempe and another that had two. If I come across the names I will post them. I have come across some smaller pianos that sound quite good even though grands that are under 5 foot seem to not thought os well. Looking through some old music trade reviews I came across a grand that was under 4 ' . Not sure many of those got made or are still around .

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 06-06-2019 01:14
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Naive design question

I understand that much of a pianos design is based on efficiency of space and materials. Maximum use of space with minimum use of materials with as little compromise as possible on desired tone and performance. That said, has anyone ever built a piano using a baby grand plate and strings but a larger grand case and soundboard? I ask because I find smaller pianos, with their shorter strings and subsequent less color, easier to listen to but I am also curious what that smaller plate and strings might sound like on a much larger soundboard. Anyone ever tried that combination?

I look forward to your comments. Or ridicule as the case may be. :-)

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Terry, no criticism, I brought it up because it was an example of using a shorter scale on a larger soundboard. Unfortunately I never got to hear the piano after it was put in working order.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-09-2019 11:31
From: Edward McMorrow
Subject: Naive design question

The newest information to incorporate into your piano design elements cookbook must include considerations of how Longitudinal mode energy is coupled to the Transverse modes. Many false beats and false sounding trebles are caused by this, it is not just loose bridge pins.

I have experimented with modifications that reduce the ability of L-mode to "destroy" T-modes. This leads me to conclude that even though these L-modes are above the audible range, they profoundly affect how good a piano sounds, more so than inharmonicity I think.

It is a whole new piano world now. But who cares?

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431

Original Message:
Sent: 06-09-2019 10:29
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Naive design question

Adding to Terry's take...In addition to backscale considerations, I will shorten parts of certain small piano bass scales, often the high end of the bass, to reorient the bass bridge so swings closer to parallel to the grain lines of the board. In small pianos, the bass can often be pretty darn close to crossgrain to the panel, turning the bass bridge into an unintentional, honking, unhelpful beam. The dance between  board grain angle and bridge(s) orientation, relative to the panel grain has given me really one of my biggest bangs for the buck in small piano belly design.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 06-09-2019 06:36
From: Terrence Farrell
Subject: Naive design question

Steven R. wrote: I once saw a Chickering grand with an extremely long back scale, the segments between the bridge and the plate were at least double anything I've seen, particularly in the bass. This foreshortened the string scale relative to the soundboard size quite a bit.

Foreshortened bass string length? It sounds to me like I'm hearing a critical tone in that statement (maybe I'm wrong???). Relative to most modern piano designs, it is often quite beneficial to sacrifice some string speaking length to gain some backscale length. This tends to let the bass bridge vibrate more freely rather than be tied down to the plate by a too-short backscale. The longer backscale will also move the bass bridge away from the rim and allow the bass bridge be mounted directly onto the soundboard rather than mounted on a cantilever - again improving the efficiency of energy transfer from the strings to the soundboard.

Del? My guess is you could write a book on this issue!

------------------------------
Terry Farrell
Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
Brandon, Florida
terry@farrellpiano.com
813-684-3505

Original Message:
Sent: 06-08-2019 16:56
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: Naive design question

I once saw a Chickering grand with an extremely long back scale, the segments between the bridge and the plate were at least double anything I've seen, particularly in the bass. This foreshortened the string scale relative to the soundboard size quite a bit. It had a beautiful rosewood victorian cabinet, I'd guess it to be turn of the century.
Don't ask me how it sounded, it was in such bad shape I turned it over to a rebuilder immediately. The work was done and the neither the rebuilder nor I ever heard from the lady again. It was for decoration I guess.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 06-08-2019 11:37
From: James Kelly
Subject: Naive design question

There are several different pianos that have been made with different types of soundboard designs and features. Although not a grand Mehlin made an upright grand that had a grand piano plate in it and also did some things on the back of the soundboard. They also had a grand that was designed with a cut out in the soundboard and the plate and bridges had a unique structural design using a bridge with cutouts and the tail end of the plate higher than the the tuning pin end. It was built using concepts from violin designs. I have seen both here.
There is also a piano that had multiple levels of sound boards in it . I think it was Hempe and another that had two. If I come across the names I will post them. I have come across some smaller pianos that sound quite good even though grands that are under 5 foot seem to not thought os well. Looking through some old music trade reviews I came across a grand that was under 4 ' . Not sure many of those got made or are still around .

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 06-06-2019 01:14
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Naive design question

I understand that much of a pianos design is based on efficiency of space and materials. Maximum use of space with minimum use of materials with as little compromise as possible on desired tone and performance. That said, has anyone ever built a piano using a baby grand plate and strings but a larger grand case and soundboard? I ask because I find smaller pianos, with their shorter strings and subsequent less color, easier to listen to but I am also curious what that smaller plate and strings might sound like on a much larger soundboard. Anyone ever tried that combination?

I look forward to your comments. Or ridicule as the case may be. :-)

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------