Pianotech

7' Schimmel grand from 1992. In excellent condition except for damper timing. Lift from damper pedal is just high enough for the sostonuto rail to grab the sostonuto tabs on every note. But when playing a note the damper does not come up soon enough nor high enough for the sostonuto rail to grab that little tab. Because damper timing is late, and lift is low, I'm thinking to adjust damper timing so it lifts sooner and, therefore, lifts higher. But this piano uses spoons for that adjustment. (see pic)


Today's question: What is the most efficient method of adjusting grand piano damper lift spoons so that everything comes out even?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Geoff

You want to adjust the damper timing that simulates the damper lifter felts a the end of the keys. But because the damper lever spoons might not  be exactly even, once you've got the dampers lifting correctly, to adjust the dampers on the lift tray, turn the capstan under each damper lever.

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-02-2020 20:22
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Damper timing question

7' Schimmel grand from 1992. In excellent condition except for damper timing. Lift from damper pedal is just high enough for the sostonuto rail to grab the sostonuto tabs on every note. But when playing a note the damper does not come up soon enough nor high enough for the sostonuto rail to grab that little tab. Because damper timing is late, and lift is low, I'm thinking to adjust damper timing so it lifts sooner and, therefore, lifts higher. But this piano uses spoons for that adjustment. (see pic)

Today's question: What is the most efficient method of adjusting grand piano damper lift spoons so that everything comes out even?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

The damper tray lift is even and the height is fine. It's the individual dampers, when lifted by the keys, that need adjusting. Dampers should start to lift at about the half way point of hammer travel to the string. At the moment it's about 3/4 of the travel distance before they start to lift. And they are not lifting high enough for the sostonuto blade to catch the tabs. With sustain pedal the dampers lift plenty high, and the sostonuto blade catches everything. The individual notes should be lifting the dampers to the same height as the pedal, and they are not. Since everything else is apparently correct, spoon correction is the only thing I can think of to correct this. And I'm looking for a way to avoid having to pull the action out 800 times to accomplish this.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-02-2020 23:54
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Damper timing question

Geoff

You want to adjust the damper timing that simulates the damper lifter felts a the end of the keys. But because the damper lever spoons might not  be exactly even, once you've got the dampers lifting correctly, to adjust the dampers on the lift tray, turn the capstan under each damper lever.

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789

Original Message:
Sent: 06-02-2020 20:22
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Damper timing question

7' Schimmel grand from 1992. In excellent condition except for damper timing. Lift from damper pedal is just high enough for the sostonuto rail to grab the sostonuto tabs on every note. But when playing a note the damper does not come up soon enough nor high enough for the sostonuto rail to grab that little tab. Because damper timing is late, and lift is low, I'm thinking to adjust damper timing so it lifts sooner and, therefore, lifts higher. But this piano uses spoons for that adjustment. (see pic)

Today's question: What is the most efficient method of adjusting grand piano damper lift spoons so that everything comes out even?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Geoff

If you use a jig to adjust each damper so that it lifts the spoon at the right time, you should only have to put the action in once. Use the spoon the make that adjustment. Yes, each spoon might not be exactly level, but that's not a problem. Even if the damper timing with the key is off just .003 - .005, the player is not going to feel that. Once you've got the dampers lifting at the right height to activate the sostenuto rod, then you need to adjust the dampers so that they all lift at the same time with the damper tray.  To get them to do that, adjust the capstan under each lever. It's really not hard to do. But the important thing is, unless you can see that someone bent the spoons, they are level enough for the kind of adjustments you want to make.

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2020 01:26
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Damper timing question

The damper tray lift is even and the height is fine. It's the individual dampers, when lifted by the keys, that need adjusting. Dampers should start to lift at about the half way point of hammer travel to the string. At the moment it's about 3/4 of the travel distance before they start to lift. And they are not lifting high enough for the sostonuto blade to catch the tabs. With sustain pedal the dampers lift plenty high, and the sostonuto blade catches everything. The individual notes should be lifting the dampers to the same height as the pedal, and they are not. Since everything else is apparently correct, spoon correction is the only thing I can think of to correct this. And I'm looking for a way to avoid having to pull the action out 800 times to accomplish this.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 06-02-2020 23:54
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Damper timing question

Geoff

You want to adjust the damper timing that simulates the damper lifter felts a the end of the keys. But because the damper lever spoons might not  be exactly even, once you've got the dampers lifting correctly, to adjust the dampers on the lift tray, turn the capstan under each damper lever.

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789

Original Message:
Sent: 06-02-2020 20:22
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Damper timing question

7' Schimmel grand from 1992. In excellent condition except for damper timing. Lift from damper pedal is just high enough for the sostonuto rail to grab the sostonuto tabs on every note. But when playing a note the damper does not come up soon enough nor high enough for the sostonuto rail to grab that little tab. Because damper timing is late, and lift is low, I'm thinking to adjust damper timing so it lifts sooner and, therefore, lifts higher. But this piano uses spoons for that adjustment. (see pic)

Today's question: What is the most efficient method of adjusting grand piano damper lift spoons so that everything comes out even?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

A Spurlock jig placed over the key end felt will give you the height of the jig blade. Then place the jig in the action cavity with the edge of the blade just under the spoons. If the lift using the damper pedal is already sufficient to clear the strings, and the sostenuto tabs are just below the sostenuto blade, just bend the spoons so they just touch the top surface of the jig. A damper wire bending tool will do the job, though probably almost anything will work. The jig will get you really close to having the proper damper timing. The last thing to adjust is the capstans under the underlevers for simultaneous damper lift.


If the damper blocks and sostenuto tabs aren't in a line and the timing is off and dampers are lifting unevenly due to the felt settling, here's what I do:

If you don't have the Spurlock jig, you'll need to make one, or use whatever jig you can get. The usual one has a 1/2 or 3/4" wide blade, with a thumb screw to anchor it to a rod attached to a block. You know what I'm talking about. Do one underlever at a time with that jig. With the Spurlock jig you can do many at once.

Most of the time the sostenuto blade is in the correct position, so loosening the underlever block screws and moving the wire in and out of the damper blocks so that the sostenuto tabs are in the correct position should be your first procedure. Often, the damper felt has settled so that the damper blocks are sitting too low for the sostenuto to work properly.

First, loosen the screws on the damper blocks. Use shims under the damper tray or under the damper pedal to raise the damper blocks as close as possible to the right position. Because the capstans are likely not evenly set, use the damper tray to get them close, then adjust the capstans to get a very even line. Tighten the screws in the damper blocks gently. Progressively tighten them more in several passes, using pliers or vice grips to straighten the damper heads over the strings so they don't twist as you raise the dampers. Then use the Spurlock or other jig to adjust the spoons for even lift of the key in proper timing. Do one section at a time, and test a few notes with the action back inside before committing to doing them all. When you have the damper blocks evenly hung on the wires, remove the shims/wedges and let the damper tray hang down. Use the pedal to see if the dampers are lifting simultaneously. If not, adjust the capstans to even the lift.

Don't forget to also adjust the upstop rail so the damper underlevers aren't jamming into it when using the pedal. There should be a little extra movement of the damper heads when the pedal is depressed fully.

Clear as mud?

Paul McCloud
San Diego


Original Message:
Sent: 6/2/2020 8:23:00 PM
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Damper timing question

7' Schimmel grand from 1992. In excellent condition except for damper timing. Lift from damper pedal is just high enough for the sostonuto rail to grab the sostonuto tabs on every note. But when playing a note the damper does not come up soon enough nor high enough for the sostonuto rail to grab that little tab. Because damper timing is late, and lift is low, I'm thinking to adjust damper timing so it lifts sooner and, therefore, lifts higher. But this piano uses spoons for that adjustment. (see pic)

Today's question: What is the most efficient method of adjusting grand piano damper lift spoons so that everything comes out even?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

The underlever arms need to be level. First use a jig to set their height via the set screw in the top flange. Then use a jig to set the spoon height. Bend the spoon downward to lift sooner.

I use a hex head bolt in a block as a jig. For the underlevers, I have a large washer affixed to the bolt to reach.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2020 01:20
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: Damper timing question

A Spurlock jig placed over the key end felt will give you the height of the jig blade. Then place the jig in the action cavity with the edge of the blade just under the spoons. If the lift using the damper pedal is already sufficient to clear the strings, and the sostenuto tabs are just below the sostenuto blade, just bend the spoons so they just touch the top surface of the jig. A damper wire bending tool will do the job, though probably almost anything will work. The jig will get you really close to having the proper damper timing. The last thing to adjust is the capstans under the underlevers for simultaneous damper lift.


If the damper blocks and sostenuto tabs aren't in a line and the timing is off and dampers are lifting unevenly due to the felt settling, here's what I do:

If you don't have the Spurlock jig, you'll need to make one, or use whatever jig you can get. The usual one has a 1/2 or 3/4" wide blade, with a thumb screw to anchor it to a rod attached to a block. You know what I'm talking about. Do one underlever at a time with that jig. With the Spurlock jig you can do many at once.

Most of the time the sostenuto blade is in the correct position, so loosening the underlever block screws and moving the wire in and out of the damper blocks so that the sostenuto tabs are in the correct position should be your first procedure. Often, the damper felt has settled so that the damper blocks are sitting too low for the sostenuto to work properly.

First, loosen the screws on the damper blocks. Use shims under the damper tray or under the damper pedal to raise the damper blocks as close as possible to the right position. Because the capstans are likely not evenly set, use the damper tray to get them close, then adjust the capstans to get a very even line. Tighten the screws in the damper blocks gently. Progressively tighten them more in several passes, using pliers or vice grips to straighten the damper heads over the strings so they don't twist as you raise the dampers. Then use the Spurlock or other jig to adjust the spoons for even lift of the key in proper timing. Do one section at a time, and test a few notes with the action back inside before committing to doing them all. When you have the damper blocks evenly hung on the wires, remove the shims/wedges and let the damper tray hang down. Use the pedal to see if the dampers are lifting simultaneously. If not, adjust the capstans to even the lift.

Don't forget to also adjust the upstop rail so the damper underlevers aren't jamming into it when using the pedal. There should be a little extra movement of the damper heads when the pedal is depressed fully.

Clear as mud?

Paul McCloud
San Diego


Original Message:
Sent: 6/2/2020 8:23:00 PM
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Damper timing question

7' Schimmel grand from 1992. In excellent condition except for damper timing. Lift from damper pedal is just high enough for the sostonuto rail to grab the sostonuto tabs on every note. But when playing a note the damper does not come up soon enough nor high enough for the sostonuto rail to grab that little tab. Because damper timing is late, and lift is low, I'm thinking to adjust damper timing so it lifts sooner and, therefore, lifts higher. But this piano uses spoons for that adjustment. (see pic)

Today's question: What is the most efficient method of adjusting grand piano damper lift spoons so that everything comes out even?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Aha! Yes, of course. A jig. I have both the Spurlock and LaRoy Edwards let-off jigs. Those would be perfect. Thanks everyone!

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2020 06:20
From: Jon Page
Subject: Damper timing question

The underlever arms need to be level. First use a jig to set their height via the set screw in the top flange. Then use a jig to set the spoon height. Bend the spoon downward to lift sooner.

I use a hex head bolt in a block as a jig. For the underlevers, I have a large washer affixed to the bolt to reach.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2020 01:20
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: Damper timing question

A Spurlock jig placed over the key end felt will give you the height of the jig blade. Then place the jig in the action cavity with the edge of the blade just under the spoons. If the lift using the damper pedal is already sufficient to clear the strings, and the sostenuto tabs are just below the sostenuto blade, just bend the spoons so they just touch the top surface of the jig. A damper wire bending tool will do the job, though probably almost anything will work. The jig will get you really close to having the proper damper timing. The last thing to adjust is the capstans under the underlevers for simultaneous damper lift.


If the damper blocks and sostenuto tabs aren't in a line and the timing is off and dampers are lifting unevenly due to the felt settling, here's what I do:

If you don't have the Spurlock jig, you'll need to make one, or use whatever jig you can get. The usual one has a 1/2 or 3/4" wide blade, with a thumb screw to anchor it to a rod attached to a block. You know what I'm talking about. Do one underlever at a time with that jig. With the Spurlock jig you can do many at once.

Most of the time the sostenuto blade is in the correct position, so loosening the underlever block screws and moving the wire in and out of the damper blocks so that the sostenuto tabs are in the correct position should be your first procedure. Often, the damper felt has settled so that the damper blocks are sitting too low for the sostenuto to work properly.

First, loosen the screws on the damper blocks. Use shims under the damper tray or under the damper pedal to raise the damper blocks as close as possible to the right position. Because the capstans are likely not evenly set, use the damper tray to get them close, then adjust the capstans to get a very even line. Tighten the screws in the damper blocks gently. Progressively tighten them more in several passes, using pliers or vice grips to straighten the damper heads over the strings so they don't twist as you raise the dampers. Then use the Spurlock or other jig to adjust the spoons for even lift of the key in proper timing. Do one section at a time, and test a few notes with the action back inside before committing to doing them all. When you have the damper blocks evenly hung on the wires, remove the shims/wedges and let the damper tray hang down. Use the pedal to see if the dampers are lifting simultaneously. If not, adjust the capstans to even the lift.

Don't forget to also adjust the upstop rail so the damper underlevers aren't jamming into it when using the pedal. There should be a little extra movement of the damper heads when the pedal is depressed fully.

Clear as mud?

Paul McCloud
San Diego


Original Message:
Sent: 6/2/2020 8:23:00 PM
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Damper timing question

7' Schimmel grand from 1992. In excellent condition except for damper timing. Lift from damper pedal is just high enough for the sostonuto rail to grab the sostonuto tabs on every note. But when playing a note the damper does not come up soon enough nor high enough for the sostonuto rail to grab that little tab. Because damper timing is late, and lift is low, I'm thinking to adjust damper timing so it lifts sooner and, therefore, lifts higher. But this piano uses spoons for that adjustment. (see pic)

Today's question: What is the most efficient method of adjusting grand piano damper lift spoons so that everything comes out even?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Geoff,
Your initial posts are right-on regarding what has to be done. The picture shows a beautiful installation with the sostenuto tabs evenly and presumably correctly showing under the sostenuto blade rod. We are assuming the whole set looks like that.  As you reported, the damper stop rail, lift rail and right pedal are all functioning nicely and should be left alone at this time. We are also assuming that the left-right position of the spoon ends is correct for the action at rest and with the shift function. When bending spoons, be careful not to change this left-right position.
I have done dozens of these installations and regulations in the factories and in our shop. What we learned to do was choose guide dampers at the ends of the sections. The guides will be from white key notes and we avoid any of those notes near a plate brace where the damper has been offset to avoid hitting the plate. I use a small piece of tape on those damper heads to remind me which notes I am working with.
Using one of your jigs (ours is a vertically-adjustable thing with a piece of thin veneer taped to the end of the arm) with the action on the bench, use the guide keys (marked with chalk) to adjust the jig so it is caught by the key end felt when the hammer is half way to the string. We have not made a big science of this and done it by eye. Let's assume all measurements are pretty much around the same for all sections. Transfer this jig measurement to the guide key spoons. As mentioned, to bend the spoons you can use an upright damper spoon bender if it fits the spoon neck diameter or use a needle nose pliers.
When the guides are set, with the action back in the piano, test each guide note by placing a finger lightly on top of the damper head and pushing down the key of the guide note to judge if the damper starts to move when the hammer is half way to the string. As I check each guide note, if I think the spoon should be moved slightly I make a chalk mark on the plate near the guides either to move the spoon down (mark a V on the plate) or up (mark a carat ^). How much to move the spoon is shown by the size of the mark (a v or a V for example).  With experience, doing all sections at once and making the marks minimizes the number of times the action has to be taken out and put back in the piano. You can probably check the sostenuto function of the guide notes around this time.  From your description of the situation, all should be correct.
When you are happy with the spoon heights of the guide notes, remove the action, put a straight edge (ruler or shop-made straight edge - we had varying lengths for the different sections of the models on which we worked) under the two guide spoons and match the others to fit in a nice line, section by section.  This should adjust everything considering all the other parameters and also a string height that is not perfectly straight across (going section by section should account for that).
Hope this gives some insight into a factory procedure.
Best regards from Texas.....Joel Rappaport

------------------------------
Priscilla Rappaport
Rappaport's Piano Workshop
Round Rock TX
512-255-0440
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2020 10:57
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Damper timing question

Aha! Yes, of course. A jig. I have both the Spurlock and LaRoy Edwards let-off jigs. Those would be perfect. Thanks everyone!

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2020 06:20
From: Jon Page
Subject: Damper timing question

The underlever arms need to be level. First use a jig to set their height via the set screw in the top flange. Then use a jig to set the spoon height. Bend the spoon downward to lift sooner.

I use a hex head bolt in a block as a jig. For the underlevers, I have a large washer affixed to the bolt to reach.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2020 01:20
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: Damper timing question

A Spurlock jig placed over the key end felt will give you the height of the jig blade. Then place the jig in the action cavity with the edge of the blade just under the spoons. If the lift using the damper pedal is already sufficient to clear the strings, and the sostenuto tabs are just below the sostenuto blade, just bend the spoons so they just touch the top surface of the jig. A damper wire bending tool will do the job, though probably almost anything will work. The jig will get you really close to having the proper damper timing. The last thing to adjust is the capstans under the underlevers for simultaneous damper lift.


If the damper blocks and sostenuto tabs aren't in a line and the timing is off and dampers are lifting unevenly due to the felt settling, here's what I do:

If you don't have the Spurlock jig, you'll need to make one, or use whatever jig you can get. The usual one has a 1/2 or 3/4" wide blade, with a thumb screw to anchor it to a rod attached to a block. You know what I'm talking about. Do one underlever at a time with that jig. With the Spurlock jig you can do many at once.

Most of the time the sostenuto blade is in the correct position, so loosening the underlever block screws and moving the wire in and out of the damper blocks so that the sostenuto tabs are in the correct position should be your first procedure. Often, the damper felt has settled so that the damper blocks are sitting too low for the sostenuto to work properly.

First, loosen the screws on the damper blocks. Use shims under the damper tray or under the damper pedal to raise the damper blocks as close as possible to the right position. Because the capstans are likely not evenly set, use the damper tray to get them close, then adjust the capstans to get a very even line. Tighten the screws in the damper blocks gently. Progressively tighten them more in several passes, using pliers or vice grips to straighten the damper heads over the strings so they don't twist as you raise the dampers. Then use the Spurlock or other jig to adjust the spoons for even lift of the key in proper timing. Do one section at a time, and test a few notes with the action back inside before committing to doing them all. When you have the damper blocks evenly hung on the wires, remove the shims/wedges and let the damper tray hang down. Use the pedal to see if the dampers are lifting simultaneously. If not, adjust the capstans to even the lift.

Don't forget to also adjust the upstop rail so the damper underlevers aren't jamming into it when using the pedal. There should be a little extra movement of the damper heads when the pedal is depressed fully.

Clear as mud?

Paul McCloud
San Diego


Original Message:
Sent: 6/2/2020 8:23:00 PM
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Damper timing question

7' Schimmel grand from 1992. In excellent condition except for damper timing. Lift from damper pedal is just high enough for the sostonuto rail to grab the sostonuto tabs on every note. But when playing a note the damper does not come up soon enough nor high enough for the sostonuto rail to grab that little tab. Because damper timing is late, and lift is low, I'm thinking to adjust damper timing so it lifts sooner and, therefore, lifts higher. But this piano uses spoons for that adjustment. (see pic)

Today's question: What is the most efficient method of adjusting grand piano damper lift spoons so that everything comes out even?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Another way to set the trial end notes is with the action on the bench. Depress the key until the hammer is at half-blow. Measure the height of the key end felt. That measurement is your trial height for the underlever/spoon to contact the felt.

For dampers that are lifting too soon, simply hold the key with the hammer at half-blow. Measure the height of the damper head against the adjacent damper.  That measurement is the amount the underlever/spoon needs to be raised.
------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

For dampers at the beginning of the tenor where the heads are offset, they need to be timed earlier than the rest in their key lift. By this I mean that the underlevers should lift evenly or with a desired taper. But because of the offset, the spoons will need to be set slightly lower for lift at half-blow. For underlevers, slice into the bottom of the key end felt and insert a shim, generally .25~.5 mm. I can't recall if the same holds true for offsets at the top end of the bass.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Maybe I'm missing something here but what is the actual cause of the symptom. Everything in the picture seems very even. What is the condition of the lift felts at the ends of the keys? Are the problem notes concentrated in the middle of the piano? Have they shrunk or been worn by the spoons over time? Perhaps the easiest, most even result can be had by replacing the lift felts or shimming as Jon suggests. (I'm assuming you've already checked the key height/dip)

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2020 16:08
From: Jon Page
Subject: Damper timing question

For dampers at the beginning of the tenor where the heads are offset, they need to be timed earlier than the rest in their key lift. By this I mean that the underlevers should lift evenly or with a desired taper. But because of the offset, the spoons will need to be set slightly lower for lift at half-blow. For underlevers, slice into the bottom of the key end felt and insert a shim, generally .25~.5 mm. I can't recall if the same holds true for offsets at the top end of the bass.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

I apologize if my original description of the problem is confusing some. Priscilla has the right idea. The pedal lifts all the dampers evenly, and to the correct height so that the sostonuto blade will catch all the tabs. Playing the individual notes, however, only raises the damper about half the height of what the pedal does. Not high enough, especially since the tabs on those notes wind up below the sostonuto blade when played and do not get caught. Dampers don't start to raise until about 3/4 of the blow distance. Therefore, adjusting the spoons for proper damper timing, (earlier), will also correct the lift discrepancy. Using a guide, or jig, is the answer I couldn't think of at the time. (Senior moment, I'm sure.) Thanks to all for your help.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2020 16:26
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: Damper timing question

Maybe I'm missing something here but what is the actual cause of the symptom. Everything in the picture seems very even. What is the condition of the lift felts at the ends of the keys? Are the problem notes concentrated in the middle of the piano? Have they shrunk or been worn by the spoons over time? Perhaps the easiest, most even result can be had by replacing the lift felts or shimming as Jon suggests. (I'm assuming you've already checked the key height/dip)

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2020 16:08
From: Jon Page
Subject: Damper timing question

For dampers at the beginning of the tenor where the heads are offset, they need to be timed earlier than the rest in their key lift. By this I mean that the underlevers should lift evenly or with a desired taper. But because of the offset, the spoons will need to be set slightly lower for lift at half-blow. For underlevers, slice into the bottom of the key end felt and insert a shim, generally .25~.5 mm. I can't recall if the same holds true for offsets at the top end of the bass.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

I like to see the damper rise from the key to be a little higher than damper rise from the sustain pedal. In other words, the with the sustain pedal depressed, the damper winks ever so slightly then the key is pressed. (I am not sure where I got this from)
In any case, I find the best tool to regulate these spoons is a long straight spoon bender, which I like so much as to make available to interested parties.

------------------------------
Jurgen Goering
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2020 19:38
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Damper timing question

I apologize if my original description of the problem is confusing some. Priscilla has the right idea. The pedal lifts all the dampers evenly, and to the correct height so that the sostonuto blade will catch all the tabs. Playing the individual notes, however, only raises the damper about half the height of what the pedal does. Not high enough, especially since the tabs on those notes wind up below the sostonuto blade when played and do not get caught. Dampers don't start to raise until about 3/4 of the blow distance. Therefore, adjusting the spoons for proper damper timing, (earlier), will also correct the lift discrepancy. Using a guide, or jig, is the answer I couldn't think of at the time. (Senior moment, I'm sure.) Thanks to all for your help.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2020 16:26
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: Damper timing question

Maybe I'm missing something here but what is the actual cause of the symptom. Everything in the picture seems very even. What is the condition of the lift felts at the ends of the keys? Are the problem notes concentrated in the middle of the piano? Have they shrunk or been worn by the spoons over time? Perhaps the easiest, most even result can be had by replacing the lift felts or shimming as Jon suggests. (I'm assuming you've already checked the key height/dip)

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2020 16:08
From: Jon Page
Subject: Damper timing question

For dampers at the beginning of the tenor where the heads are offset, they need to be timed earlier than the rest in their key lift. By this I mean that the underlevers should lift evenly or with a desired taper. But because of the offset, the spoons will need to be set slightly lower for lift at half-blow. For underlevers, slice into the bottom of the key end felt and insert a shim, generally .25~.5 mm. I can't recall if the same holds true for offsets at the top end of the bass.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

As I was taught, all the dampers should rise equally high with the sustain pedal and the dampers for all the white keys should rise to exactly the same height when played. The dampers for the black keys, however, should rise just a tiny bump higher when the black key is played because that's what's supposed to happen when they're regulated correctly.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-04-2020 16:50
From: Jurgen Goering
Subject: Damper timing question

I like to see the damper rise from the key to be a little higher than damper rise from the sustain pedal. In other words, the with the sustain pedal depressed, the damper winks ever so slightly then the key is pressed. (I am not sure where I got this from)
In any case, I find the best tool to regulate these spoons is a long straight spoon bender, which I like so much as to make available to interested parties.

------------------------------
Jurgen Goering

Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2020 19:38
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Damper timing question

I apologize if my original description of the problem is confusing some. Priscilla has the right idea. The pedal lifts all the dampers evenly, and to the correct height so that the sostonuto blade will catch all the tabs. Playing the individual notes, however, only raises the damper about half the height of what the pedal does. Not high enough, especially since the tabs on those notes wind up below the sostonuto blade when played and do not get caught. Dampers don't start to raise until about 3/4 of the blow distance. Therefore, adjusting the spoons for proper damper timing, (earlier), will also correct the lift discrepancy. Using a guide, or jig, is the answer I couldn't think of at the time. (Senior moment, I'm sure.) Thanks to all for your help.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2020 16:26
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: Damper timing question

Maybe I'm missing something here but what is the actual cause of the symptom. Everything in the picture seems very even. What is the condition of the lift felts at the ends of the keys? Are the problem notes concentrated in the middle of the piano? Have they shrunk or been worn by the spoons over time? Perhaps the easiest, most even result can be had by replacing the lift felts or shimming as Jon suggests. (I'm assuming you've already checked the key height/dip)

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2020 16:08
From: Jon Page
Subject: Damper timing question

For dampers at the beginning of the tenor where the heads are offset, they need to be timed earlier than the rest in their key lift. By this I mean that the underlevers should lift evenly or with a desired taper. But because of the offset, the spoons will need to be set slightly lower for lift at half-blow. For underlevers, slice into the bottom of the key end felt and insert a shim, generally .25~.5 mm. I can't recall if the same holds true for offsets at the top end of the bass.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

OK-> whether the sustain pedal rod gets adjusted up or down a little is negotiable and easy to do as a last step.

My point being that with the (well regulated) dampers rising less with the sustain, it is really nice to check the spoon adjustment to see the dampers just wink when the keys is played.

In any case, the right tool makes a job efficient, easy and even fun!

------------------------------
Jurgen Goering
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-04-2020 18:47
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Damper timing question

As I was taught, all the dampers should rise equally high with the sustain pedal and the dampers for all the white keys should rise to exactly the same height when played. The dampers for the black keys, however, should rise just a tiny bump higher when the black key is played because that's what's supposed to happen when they're regulated correctly.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 06-04-2020 16:50
From: Jurgen Goering
Subject: Damper timing question

I like to see the damper rise from the key to be a little higher than damper rise from the sustain pedal. In other words, the with the sustain pedal depressed, the damper winks ever so slightly then the key is pressed. (I am not sure where I got this from)
In any case, I find the best tool to regulate these spoons is a long straight spoon bender, which I like so much as to make available to interested parties.

------------------------------
Jurgen Goering

Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2020 19:38
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Damper timing question

I apologize if my original description of the problem is confusing some. Priscilla has the right idea. The pedal lifts all the dampers evenly, and to the correct height so that the sostonuto blade will catch all the tabs. Playing the individual notes, however, only raises the damper about half the height of what the pedal does. Not high enough, especially since the tabs on those notes wind up below the sostonuto blade when played and do not get caught. Dampers don't start to raise until about 3/4 of the blow distance. Therefore, adjusting the spoons for proper damper timing, (earlier), will also correct the lift discrepancy. Using a guide, or jig, is the answer I couldn't think of at the time. (Senior moment, I'm sure.) Thanks to all for your help.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2020 16:26
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: Damper timing question

Maybe I'm missing something here but what is the actual cause of the symptom. Everything in the picture seems very even. What is the condition of the lift felts at the ends of the keys? Are the problem notes concentrated in the middle of the piano? Have they shrunk or been worn by the spoons over time? Perhaps the easiest, most even result can be had by replacing the lift felts or shimming as Jon suggests. (I'm assuming you've already checked the key height/dip)

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2020 16:08
From: Jon Page
Subject: Damper timing question

For dampers at the beginning of the tenor where the heads are offset, they need to be timed earlier than the rest in their key lift. By this I mean that the underlevers should lift evenly or with a desired taper. But because of the offset, the spoons will need to be set slightly lower for lift at half-blow. For underlevers, slice into the bottom of the key end felt and insert a shim, generally .25~.5 mm. I can't recall if the same holds true for offsets at the top end of the bass.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

I use my screw pliers or parallel pliers to bend the spoons.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 6/4/2020 8:39:00 PM
From: Jon Page
Subject: RE: Damper timing question

I use my screw pliers or parallel pliers to bend the spoons.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Seems to me that trilling generally happens at less than full dip, thus never invoking a wink with the pedal fully depressed.

------------------------------
Christopher Brown
chris@grandwork.tools
978-505-7728
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-05-2020 10:30
From: Linda Scott
Subject: Damper timing question

Interesting!  ...and I was taught that you don't want to catch any damper weight on the end of the key with the pedal fully depressed, to facilitate trilling, so you don't want winking.  Made sense to me.  Why would winking be preferable, do you suppose?

Linda Scott, RPT

Original Message:
Sent: 6/4/2020 8:39:00 PM
From: Jon Page
Subject: RE: Damper timing question

I use my screw pliers or parallel pliers to bend the spoons.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Sorry, Geoff - I'm late to the conversation, so this suggestion may be moot. Spoons compress keyend felts during play over time, making their pickup by the keys later and later. A quick improvement might be had (without changing the adjustments that already work well) by treating the keyend felt depressions with something to make them swell back to where they were before playing compression changed the pickup. I have had luck with Dampp-chaser additive - it is a very effective surfactant, allowing water in the substance quickly past the surface lanolin into the wool fibers to swell them back up (my non-technical understanding of what happens...). This also works really well with whippen cloth capstan compression (but don't over soak, as the felt / cloth can come unglued - another use of this versatile product). Soak the depression. Let swell. Iron with a flat iron. Magic!

------------------------------
Christopher Brown
Owner
Grandwork Tools
Littleton MA
978-505-7728
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-02-2020 20:22
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Damper timing question

7' Schimmel grand from 1992. In excellent condition except for damper timing. Lift from damper pedal is just high enough for the sostonuto rail to grab the sostonuto tabs on every note. But when playing a note the damper does not come up soon enough nor high enough for the sostonuto rail to grab that little tab. Because damper timing is late, and lift is low, I'm thinking to adjust damper timing so it lifts sooner and, therefore, lifts higher. But this piano uses spoons for that adjustment. (see pic)

Today's question: What is the most efficient method of adjusting grand piano damper lift spoons so that everything comes out even?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 6/5/2020 9:45:00 AM
From: Christopher Brown
Subject: RE: Damper timing question

Sorry, Geoff - I'm late to the conversation, so this suggestion may be moot. Spoons compress keyend felts during play over time, making their pickup by the keys later and later. A quick improvement might be had (without changing the adjustments that already work well) by treating the keyend felt depressions with something to make them swell back to where they were before playing compression changed the pickup. I have had luck with Dampp-chaser additive - it is a very effective surfactant, allowing water in the substance quickly past the surface lanolin into the wool fibers to swell them back up (my non-technical understanding of what happens...). This also works really well with whippen cloth capstan compression (but don't over soak, as the felt / cloth can come unglued - another use of this versatile product). Soak the depression. Let swell. Iron with a flat iron. Magic!

------------------------------
Christopher Brown
Owner
Grandwork Tools
Littleton MA
978-505-7728
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-02-2020 20:22
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Damper timing question

7' Schimmel grand from 1992. In excellent condition except for damper timing. Lift from damper pedal is just high enough for the sostonuto rail to grab the sostonuto tabs on every note. But when playing a note the damper does not come up soon enough nor high enough for the sostonuto rail to grab that little tab. Because damper timing is late, and lift is low, I'm thinking to adjust damper timing so it lifts sooner and, therefore, lifts higher. But this piano uses spoons for that adjustment. (see pic)

Today's question: What is the most efficient method of adjusting grand piano damper lift spoons so that everything comes out even?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

What a great idea, Christopher. Deserves a test, for sure.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-05-2020 09:44
From: Christopher Brown
Subject: Damper timing question

Sorry, Geoff - I'm late to the conversation, so this suggestion may be moot. Spoons compress keyend felts during play over time, making their pickup by the keys later and later. A quick improvement might be had (without changing the adjustments that already work well) by treating the keyend felt depressions with something to make them swell back to where they were before playing compression changed the pickup. I have had luck with Dampp-chaser additive - it is a very effective surfactant, allowing water in the substance quickly past the surface lanolin into the wool fibers to swell them back up (my non-technical understanding of what happens...). This also works really well with whippen cloth capstan compression (but don't over soak, as the felt / cloth can come unglued - another use of this versatile product). Soak the depression. Let swell. Iron with a flat iron. Magic!

------------------------------
Christopher Brown
Owner
Grandwork Tools
Littleton MA
978-505-7728

Original Message:
Sent: 06-02-2020 20:22
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Damper timing question

7' Schimmel grand from 1992. In excellent condition except for damper timing. Lift from damper pedal is just high enough for the sostonuto rail to grab the sostonuto tabs on every note. But when playing a note the damper does not come up soon enough nor high enough for the sostonuto rail to grab that little tab. Because damper timing is late, and lift is low, I'm thinking to adjust damper timing so it lifts sooner and, therefore, lifts higher. But this piano uses spoons for that adjustment. (see pic)

Today's question: What is the most efficient method of adjusting grand piano damper lift spoons so that everything comes out even?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Chris,
Are you using the DC fluid full strength, or diluted? I’m very interested to try this out. I’ve tried Profelt, with less than hoped-for results.

Joe Wiencek


Original Message:
Sent: 6/5/2020 11:49:00 AM
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: RE: Damper timing question

What a great idea, Christopher. Deserves a test, for sure.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-05-2020 09:44
From: Christopher Brown
Subject: Damper timing question

Sorry, Geoff - I'm late to the conversation, so this suggestion may be moot. Spoons compress keyend felts during play over time, making their pickup by the keys later and later. A quick improvement might be had (without changing the adjustments that already work well) by treating the keyend felt depressions with something to make them swell back to where they were before playing compression changed the pickup. I have had luck with Dampp-chaser additive - it is a very effective surfactant, allowing water in the substance quickly past the surface lanolin into the wool fibers to swell them back up (my non-technical understanding of what happens...). This also works really well with whippen cloth capstan compression (but don't over soak, as the felt / cloth can come unglued - another use of this versatile product). Soak the depression. Let swell. Iron with a flat iron. Magic!

------------------------------
Christopher Brown
Owner
Grandwork Tools
Littleton MA
978-505-7728

Original Message:
Sent: 06-02-2020 20:22
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Damper timing question

7' Schimmel grand from 1992. In excellent condition except for damper timing. Lift from damper pedal is just high enough for the sostonuto rail to grab the sostonuto tabs on every note. But when playing a note the damper does not come up soon enough nor high enough for the sostonuto rail to grab that little tab. Because damper timing is late, and lift is low, I'm thinking to adjust damper timing so it lifts sooner and, therefore, lifts higher. But this piano uses spoons for that adjustment. (see pic)

Today's question: What is the most efficient method of adjusting grand piano damper lift spoons so that everything comes out even?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

We will definitely be trying out your suggestion, Chris. Thanks for sharing it!

Geoff, if Chris' diagnosis is correct. then the damper timing should be good on those notes with dampers that don't get played much (such as the lowest bass notes). Have you observed whether or not the problem you describe is consistent throughout the scale?

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-05-2020 09:44
From: Christopher Brown
Subject: Damper timing question

Sorry, Geoff - I'm late to the conversation, so this suggestion may be moot. Spoons compress keyend felts during play over time, making their pickup by the keys later and later. A quick improvement might be had (without changing the adjustments that already work well) by treating the keyend felt depressions with something to make them swell back to where they were before playing compression changed the pickup. I have had luck with Dampp-chaser additive - it is a very effective surfactant, allowing water in the substance quickly past the surface lanolin into the wool fibers to swell them back up (my non-technical understanding of what happens...). This also works really well with whippen cloth capstan compression (but don't over soak, as the felt / cloth can come unglued - another use of this versatile product). Soak the depression. Let swell. Iron with a flat iron. Magic!

------------------------------
Christopher Brown
Owner
Grandwork Tools
Littleton MA
978-505-7728

Original Message:
Sent: 06-02-2020 20:22
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Damper timing question

7' Schimmel grand from 1992. In excellent condition except for damper timing. Lift from damper pedal is just high enough for the sostonuto rail to grab the sostonuto tabs on every note. But when playing a note the damper does not come up soon enough nor high enough for the sostonuto rail to grab that little tab. Because damper timing is late, and lift is low, I'm thinking to adjust damper timing so it lifts sooner and, therefore, lifts higher. But this piano uses spoons for that adjustment. (see pic)

Today's question: What is the most efficient method of adjusting grand piano damper lift spoons so that everything comes out even?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Alan --
I didn't think to look at the key end felts at the time. I will see the piano again in about a week, now armed with all the right information to analyze and correct the problem. Will report back.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-05-2020 14:01
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Damper timing question

We will definitely be trying out your suggestion, Chris. Thanks for sharing it!

Geoff, if Chris' diagnosis is correct. then the damper timing should be good on those notes with dampers that don't get played much (such as the lowest bass notes). Have you observed whether or not the problem you describe is consistent throughout the scale?

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 06-05-2020 09:44
From: Christopher Brown
Subject: Damper timing question

Sorry, Geoff - I'm late to the conversation, so this suggestion may be moot. Spoons compress keyend felts during play over time, making their pickup by the keys later and later. A quick improvement might be had (without changing the adjustments that already work well) by treating the keyend felt depressions with something to make them swell back to where they were before playing compression changed the pickup. I have had luck with Dampp-chaser additive - it is a very effective surfactant, allowing water in the substance quickly past the surface lanolin into the wool fibers to swell them back up (my non-technical understanding of what happens...). This also works really well with whippen cloth capstan compression (but don't over soak, as the felt / cloth can come unglued - another use of this versatile product). Soak the depression. Let swell. Iron with a flat iron. Magic!

------------------------------
Christopher Brown
Owner
Grandwork Tools
Littleton MA
978-505-7728

Original Message:
Sent: 06-02-2020 20:22
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Damper timing question

7' Schimmel grand from 1992. In excellent condition except for damper timing. Lift from damper pedal is just high enough for the sostonuto rail to grab the sostonuto tabs on every note. But when playing a note the damper does not come up soon enough nor high enough for the sostonuto rail to grab that little tab. Because damper timing is late, and lift is low, I'm thinking to adjust damper timing so it lifts sooner and, therefore, lifts higher. But this piano uses spoons for that adjustment. (see pic)

Today's question: What is the most efficient method of adjusting grand piano damper lift spoons so that everything comes out even?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Geoff and all,
I don't know anything about the felt treatments. But as I observe the one photo of the piano cavity and read Geoff's description, it looks like a relatively clean newer instrument that just needs spoon adjustment. I would reflect on why we would want to start manipulating the key-end felts when they are already appropriately worn and stable. They probably won't be changing much more now that they are broken in. The rounded shape of the spoon is designed to avoid cutting into the felt further.
Treating the felt with anything will likely have the desired effect but will start the wearing-in process again and possibly make further adjustment necessary in the future. Plus, as Alan points out, after treating the felts, adjustments will still be needed.  And I really like Jurgen's tool. We have something like that from the factory but it has a bent neck so you don't have to stick your hand so far into the piano and come in at such a side angle. Just a thought (or two).
Greetings again from central Texas where it will be over 100 degrees F in the coming week!
Joel Rappaport

------------------------------
Joel Rappaport
Rappaport's Piano Workshop
Round Rock TX
512-255-0440
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-06-2020 12:14
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Damper timing question

Alan --
I didn't think to look at the key end felts at the time. I will see the piano again in about a week, now armed with all the right information to analyze and correct the problem. Will report back.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 06-05-2020 14:01
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Damper timing question

We will definitely be trying out your suggestion, Chris. Thanks for sharing it!

Geoff, if Chris' diagnosis is correct. then the damper timing should be good on those notes with dampers that don't get played much (such as the lowest bass notes). Have you observed whether or not the problem you describe is consistent throughout the scale?

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 06-05-2020 09:44
From: Christopher Brown
Subject: Damper timing question

Sorry, Geoff - I'm late to the conversation, so this suggestion may be moot. Spoons compress keyend felts during play over time, making their pickup by the keys later and later. A quick improvement might be had (without changing the adjustments that already work well) by treating the keyend felt depressions with something to make them swell back to where they were before playing compression changed the pickup. I have had luck with Dampp-chaser additive - it is a very effective surfactant, allowing water in the substance quickly past the surface lanolin into the wool fibers to swell them back up (my non-technical understanding of what happens...). This also works really well with whippen cloth capstan compression (but don't over soak, as the felt / cloth can come unglued - another use of this versatile product). Soak the depression. Let swell. Iron with a flat iron. Magic!

------------------------------
Christopher Brown
Owner
Grandwork Tools
Littleton MA
978-505-7728

Original Message:
Sent: 06-02-2020 20:22
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Damper timing question

7' Schimmel grand from 1992. In excellent condition except for damper timing. Lift from damper pedal is just high enough for the sostonuto rail to grab the sostonuto tabs on every note. But when playing a note the damper does not come up soon enough nor high enough for the sostonuto rail to grab that little tab. Because damper timing is late, and lift is low, I'm thinking to adjust damper timing so it lifts sooner and, therefore, lifts higher. But this piano uses spoons for that adjustment. (see pic)

Today's question: What is the most efficient method of adjusting grand piano damper lift spoons so that everything comes out even?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Joel and Jurgen,
Joel,I agree with you when you write: "why we would want to start manipulating the key-end felts when they are already appropriately worn and stable"

But I do not agree with Jurgen when he writes: "I like to see the damper rise from the key to be a little higher than damper rise from the sustain pedal. In other words, the with the sustain pedal depressed, the damper winks ever so slightly then the key is pressed. "
I learned that the damper should move the same distance by the key as by the pedal. Until I learned from a pianist that he wanted the lifting by the pedal a little bit higher because he did not want to feel the touching of the damper lever when he has the pedal depressed. So from that moment on I set the movement by the pedal a little bit higher.

------------------------------
Michiel van Loon
MEPPEL
The Netherlands
+31655150644
mvanloon@pianoman.nl
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-06-2020 16:16
From: Priscilla Rappaport
Subject: Damper timing question

Geoff and all,
I don't know anything about the felt treatments. But as I observe the one photo of the piano cavity and read Geoff's description, it looks like a relatively clean newer instrument that just needs spoon adjustment. I would reflect on why we would want to start manipulating the key-end felts when they are already appropriately worn and stable. They probably won't be changing much more now that they are broken in. The rounded shape of the spoon is designed to avoid cutting into the felt further.
Treating the felt with anything will likely have the desired effect but will start the wearing-in process again and possibly make further adjustment necessary in the future. Plus, as Alan points out, after treating the felts, adjustments will still be needed.  And I really like Jurgen's tool. We have something like that from the factory but it has a bent neck so you don't have to stick your hand so far into the piano and come in at such a side angle. Just a thought (or two).
Greetings again from central Texas where it will be over 100 degrees F in the coming week!
Joel Rappaport

------------------------------
Joel Rappaport
Rappaport's Piano Workshop
Round Rock TX
512-255-0440

Original Message:
Sent: 06-06-2020 12:14
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Damper timing question

Alan --
I didn't think to look at the key end felts at the time. I will see the piano again in about a week, now armed with all the right information to analyze and correct the problem. Will report back.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 06-05-2020 14:01
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Damper timing question

We will definitely be trying out your suggestion, Chris. Thanks for sharing it!

Geoff, if Chris' diagnosis is correct. then the damper timing should be good on those notes with dampers that don't get played much (such as the lowest bass notes). Have you observed whether or not the problem you describe is consistent throughout the scale?

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 06-05-2020 09:44
From: Christopher Brown
Subject: Damper timing question

Sorry, Geoff - I'm late to the conversation, so this suggestion may be moot. Spoons compress keyend felts during play over time, making their pickup by the keys later and later. A quick improvement might be had (without changing the adjustments that already work well) by treating the keyend felt depressions with something to make them swell back to where they were before playing compression changed the pickup. I have had luck with Dampp-chaser additive - it is a very effective surfactant, allowing water in the substance quickly past the surface lanolin into the wool fibers to swell them back up (my non-technical understanding of what happens...). This also works really well with whippen cloth capstan compression (but don't over soak, as the felt / cloth can come unglued - another use of this versatile product). Soak the depression. Let swell. Iron with a flat iron. Magic!

------------------------------
Christopher Brown
Owner
Grandwork Tools
Littleton MA
978-505-7728

Original Message:
Sent: 06-02-2020 20:22
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Damper timing question

7' Schimmel grand from 1992. In excellent condition except for damper timing. Lift from damper pedal is just high enough for the sostonuto rail to grab the sostonuto tabs on every note. But when playing a note the damper does not come up soon enough nor high enough for the sostonuto rail to grab that little tab. Because damper timing is late, and lift is low, I'm thinking to adjust damper timing so it lifts sooner and, therefore, lifts higher. But this piano uses spoons for that adjustment. (see pic)

Today's question: What is the most efficient method of adjusting grand piano damper lift spoons so that everything comes out even?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

I set pedal lift to be the same as the sharp's lift. This way, the naturals are slightly lower in key lift than pedal lift. One thing you don't want, is the pedal lift to be lower than the key lift. If this were so, then you would feel the underlevers contacting the keys on release of sustain pedal, with the keys held down. That impact is not desirable.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-07-2020 14:59
From: Michiel van Loon
Subject: Damper timing question

Joel and Jurgen,
Joel,I agree with you when you write: "why we would want to start manipulating the key-end felts when they are already appropriately worn and stable"

But I do not agree with Jurgen when he writes: "I like to see the damper rise from the key to be a little higher than damper rise from the sustain pedal. In other words, the with the sustain pedal depressed, the damper winks ever so slightly then the key is pressed. "
I learned that the damper should move the same distance by the key as by the pedal. Until I learned from a pianist that he wanted the lifting by the pedal a little bit higher because he did not want to feel the touching of the damper lever when he has the pedal depressed. So from that moment on I set the movement by the pedal a little bit higher.

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Michiel van Loon
MEPPEL
The Netherlands
+31655150644
mvanloon@pianoman.nl

Original Message:
Sent: 06-06-2020 16:16
From: Priscilla Rappaport
Subject: Damper timing question

Geoff and all,
I don't know anything about the felt treatments. But as I observe the one photo of the piano cavity and read Geoff's description, it looks like a relatively clean newer instrument that just needs spoon adjustment. I would reflect on why we would want to start manipulating the key-end felts when they are already appropriately worn and stable. They probably won't be changing much more now that they are broken in. The rounded shape of the spoon is designed to avoid cutting into the felt further.
Treating the felt with anything will likely have the desired effect but will start the wearing-in process again and possibly make further adjustment necessary in the future. Plus, as Alan points out, after treating the felts, adjustments will still be needed.  And I really like Jurgen's tool. We have something like that from the factory but it has a bent neck so you don't have to stick your hand so far into the piano and come in at such a side angle. Just a thought (or two).
Greetings again from central Texas where it will be over 100 degrees F in the coming week!
Joel Rappaport

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Joel Rappaport
Rappaport's Piano Workshop
Round Rock TX
512-255-0440

Original Message:
Sent: 06-06-2020 12:14
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Damper timing question

Alan --
I didn't think to look at the key end felts at the time. I will see the piano again in about a week, now armed with all the right information to analyze and correct the problem. Will report back.

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Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 06-05-2020 14:01
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Damper timing question

We will definitely be trying out your suggestion, Chris. Thanks for sharing it!

Geoff, if Chris' diagnosis is correct. then the damper timing should be good on those notes with dampers that don't get played much (such as the lowest bass notes). Have you observed whether or not the problem you describe is consistent throughout the scale?

Alan

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Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 06-05-2020 09:44
From: Christopher Brown
Subject: Damper timing question

Sorry, Geoff - I'm late to the conversation, so this suggestion may be moot. Spoons compress keyend felts during play over time, making their pickup by the keys later and later. A quick improvement might be had (without changing the adjustments that already work well) by treating the keyend felt depressions with something to make them swell back to where they were before playing compression changed the pickup. I have had luck with Dampp-chaser additive - it is a very effective surfactant, allowing water in the substance quickly past the surface lanolin into the wool fibers to swell them back up (my non-technical understanding of what happens...). This also works really well with whippen cloth capstan compression (but don't over soak, as the felt / cloth can come unglued - another use of this versatile product). Soak the depression. Let swell. Iron with a flat iron. Magic!

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Christopher Brown
Owner
Grandwork Tools
Littleton MA
978-505-7728

Original Message:
Sent: 06-02-2020 20:22
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Damper timing question

7' Schimmel grand from 1992. In excellent condition except for damper timing. Lift from damper pedal is just high enough for the sostonuto rail to grab the sostonuto tabs on every note. But when playing a note the damper does not come up soon enough nor high enough for the sostonuto rail to grab that little tab. Because damper timing is late, and lift is low, I'm thinking to adjust damper timing so it lifts sooner and, therefore, lifts higher. But this piano uses spoons for that adjustment. (see pic)

Today's question: What is the most efficient method of adjusting grand piano damper lift spoons so that everything comes out even?

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Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
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