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Baldwin Hamilton

  • 1.  Baldwin Hamilton

    Posted 08-11-2022 11:02
      |   view attached
    Good Morning,

    I went to look at a customer's Baldwin Hamilton this morning.  She complains of sluggish hammers.  I noticed quite a bit of graphite on the hammer butts.  The jacks are moving freely, as well as the hammers.  So I am thinking the buckskin is bad.  Didn't Baldwin have some issues with the buckskin being inserted incorrectly on their Baldwin Hamiltons?  It had been decades since I saw this issue, so I am thinking that is the problem.

    What do you all think based on the attached photo?

    Thank you!
    Patrick

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Greene
    OWNER
    Knoxville TN
    (865) 384-6582
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-11-2022 11:32
    Patrick

    The catchers have nothing to do with sluggish hammers. Hamiltons did have a problem with tight centers, though. Not only the hammer flanges, but also the wippen flanges. I have found that the only way to solve the problem is to repin every hammer and wippen flange.

    Wim





  • 3.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Posted 08-11-2022 14:53
    Since you'll be removing the hammers and flanges to repin, you might as well replace the Corfam on the catchers and butts with Ecsaine.
    Baldwin and associated products used Corfam from 1974 to 1984.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-11-2022 17:39
    As Jon noted, the buckskin that should be on the hammer butt and catcher is "corfam 1", a black material. It's different than "corfam 2" which is tan. "Corfam 1"'s worst aspect is that the glue attaching it to the butt often fails, allowing it to flap around and interfere with the jack (especially on its return). The butt catcher usually functions acceptably but it may wear and cause poor checking. "Corfam 2" quickly lost all characteristics similar to buckskin, aside from its color. It became rock hammer, making noise when the backcheck and jack made contact. Checking eventually gets to be a random event (rather than consistent).
    Both versions suffered from extremely high friction in the hammer, wippen, and jack flanges.
    Replacing the corfam with ecsaine, and repinning all these flanges can return the piano to become an acceptable starter piano.
    At minimum treat the flange bushings with an alcohol-water solution, to shrink the felt bushing, and hopefully reduce the friction. Then check all the centers & repin as necessary. Check all the hammer butts for failed/failing glue joints for the corfam.
    Good luck! Oh, and replace the bridal straps & reshape the hammers while you're at it.

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Draine RPT
    Billerica MA
    (978) 663-9690
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Posted 08-11-2022 20:49
    While the hammers are off the rail. I'd repin and replace the Corfam on the catchers and butts. I'd also reshape the hammers on an oscillating spindle sander because you'll never get the string cuts to realign. I'd also be inclined to taper the moldings, left side in the bass, right side in the tenor and both sides from just below the first treble break. The top octave I would taper more aggressively.

    The cost of repairs will outweigh the value of the piano.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Posted 08-11-2022 20:51
    I reread the original post, the pinning seems to be fine. It's the Corfam that is the issue.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Posted 08-12-2022 00:35
    Thank you guys for your good input.  I had suspected that I would need to repin most of the flanges.  Just was trying to get around it.  :-/

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Greene
    OWNER
    Knoxville TN
    (865) 384-6582
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-15-2022 14:32
    I agree with Jon's prescription, that's not graphite that you see, it's the black corfam disintegrating into a powder, you can see it's wearing down to the canvas-like backing. You have to do both the butts and catchers or problems will persist. 
    Also agree the work exceeds the value of the instrument.

    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal RPT
    Honolulu HI
    (808) 521-7129
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Posted 08-24-2022 12:43
    You all are correct that the cost of replacing the corfam on the hammer butts and back checks exceeds the value of the instrument.  Is there anything that I could do to help the action "muddle through"?  Could I just coat the area with some dry teflon powder or McLube each time I tune the piano?  The hammers and jacks are moving freely, so it is definitely the corfam that is the problem..

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Greene
    OWNER
    Knoxville TN
    (865) 384-6582
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-24-2022 13:01
    I don't think the corfam can be restored. On the butts they tend to come unglued on the top end or wear all the way through to the felt. You can do triage by only replacing the ones that are really failing, usually in the middle section. Cleaning up the black powder and brushing the catcher felts can help with the checking.

    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal RPT
    Honolulu HI
    (808) 521-7129
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Posted 08-24-2022 15:24
    When the Corfam becomes unglued at the top of the butt, it has a tendency to flap down behind the jack. Repetition becomes nonexistent.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Posted 08-24-2022 17:50

    You all seem awfully negative about the possibilities. Having done the replacement job several times, I don't think it should really be all that awful, assuming the piano doesn't have any other major technical issues.??

    Just get ecsaine, remove the corfam, glue on the ecsaine. Putting some white glue on the piece of ecsaine, and one drop of CA glue on the catch will enable the glue to set up very quickly, saving you any need for clamping. For the hammer butt, where the jack will slide along, it's best to glue the ends. Put one drop of CA down near the butt felt, being careful not to wet it, glue on that end, once they all have set up, you can put another drop up near the other end, pull on the ecsaine (a modest amount of white glue on it), and stick it down. Of course it's easier with the hammer assemblies out, which means a spacing issue putting them back in. You can make that easier if you do a light hammer filing while they are out.

    A Baldwin Hamilton isn't all that bad an upright, except for the corfam. The corfam isn't the company's fault. It was a crazy time, which suede in women's garments was all the rage, and the cost of the leather went through the roof. A Baldwin Hamilton from that era can be a good workhorse for a piano teacher. And you won't get any more of this quality of Baldwin, given that they went bankrupt, changed hands, and the factory moved to China. China has so many difficulties, mostly chronic, that the future of that factory is in grave doubt. Best to save what we have, and some corfam shouldn't stop us dead in our tracks.






  • 13.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-24-2022 18:20
    Well Susan, I wouldn't do this job again (which of course involves reshaping the hammers, and checking and correcting every flanges' friction, of which there will be many despite initial observations), for less than $1K.
    Now, if the owner replies "Yes, please!", perhaps I've underpriced the job.

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Draine RPT
    Billerica MA
    (978) 663-9690
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Posted 08-25-2022 00:26
    Hello Patrick

    $1000 is about right.  I said I would fix the 5 worst notes that were acting up for $100 - never realizing that it is the corfam that is the issue.  I just thought it was verdigris on the brass center pins.  Live and learn..  Hopefully I can fix a few notes for this customer and let her know that it will keep getting worse.

    Susan.  Thank you for all the info.  I will use this info.

    Schaff has escaine, but it comes in 7/16" W x .73" thick.  Is  that the correct dimensions for what I need?  Thanks again!

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Greene
    OWNER
    Knoxville TN
    (865) 384-6582
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Posted 08-25-2022 02:21

    Baldwin used to send out packets of precut ecsaine for this repair when the pianos were still under warranty. The pieces for both places were the same dimensions. Schaff's ecsaine also comes in two thicknesses. My guess (purely a guess) would be that the thinner version is probably the right one.

    You can figure out what size you need by removing a hammer assembly, taking off the corfam carefully, and measuring. Then make samples of ecsaine, and install them to see if they are right.

    The best way to make the right sized pieces from a bulk sheet is to buy a quilter's cutting mat (green with yellow lines on it) and a rotary cutter. You'll need a very good metal straight edge. I have a great one, metal, was intended to be a carpet installer's stair tool. I had it for cutting mats when framing pictures.

    I'll see if I can find you the right gear on Amazon ...

    mat: 18"x24" is a comfortable size, though I have a bigger one for cutting certain things.

    https://smile.amazon.com/US-Art-Supply-Professional-Scrapbooking/dp/B00L5I8RII/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=2E8DWL9PF3MCS&keywords=quilter%27s%2Bcutting%2Bmat&qid=1661408144&sprefix=quilter%27s%2Bcuttin%2Caps%2C4002&sr=8-1-spons&smid=A23ADOZFIJNPFB&th=1

    cutter -- Fiskars, that's the one. Be sure not to cut yourself. It's wicked sharp. Not a bad idea to have a spare blade in case you get a ding on the first one.

    https://smile.amazon.com/Fiskars-Classic-Stick-Rotary-Cutter/dp/B005NAG9BQ/ref=sr_1_5?crid=5T3PHXCW7SCW&keywords=rotary+cutter&qid=1661408238&sprefix=rotary+cutter%2Caps%2C175&sr=8-5







  • 16.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Posted 08-25-2022 05:09
    I'm not sure the problem has been defined. The customer complained of sluggish hammers. So, what happens when you play it? How are the hammers sluggish?


    ------------------------------
    Don Dalton
    Chester VT
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Posted 08-25-2022 07:39
    There are two iterations of Ecsaine. The slightly darker, thinner one has a coating to aid in grabbing and is used on the catchers. The thicker is used on the butts and requires considerable capstan and Let Off adjustment.  You can use PVC-E glue and glue in a two-step process. You have to first use a hacksaw blade, of appropriate thickness, to clean out the slot in the butt. You might have to crimp the end to fit the slot.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-25-2022 09:43
    Susan,

    Are you actually from the New England area? Or spent time here? "Wicked sharp" is a very New Englandy expression. I don't believe I've heard anyone use it outside of this corner of the planet. 

    I agree...that thing is WICKED SHAAHP!

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Posted 08-25-2022 10:53

    My dad grew up in Connecticut and New York. My grandad was a Manhattan patent attorney.

    I spent a summer at Dartmouth ... Zoltan Kodaly signed my copy of the solo sonata. And a summer in Connecticut at a Yale chamber music course out in the country.

    I've read various fairly old books, mostly British, pre-computer, even pre-TV. (The garden was a lot better before I got the computer web connection.) And I spent nine years in Canada. My diploma from the George Brown two year course (Toronto) has a gold seal with a little blue ribbon, which has "Honours" printed on it in gold letters.

    ("Chequered past" as they would spell it.)

    Not sure the exact arrival of "wicked sharp."






  • 20.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-25-2022 22:33
    Must have been the summa at Dahtmuth. 😉 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Member
    Posted 08-30-2022 19:08
    There is a Boston saying "Wicked Pissah" along with Pah king the Kah in Hahvard Yahd ; Chowdah and LobsDah

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Posted 08-30-2022 22:53

    Peter, maybe you can tell me. I did have an art teacher once who talked about "Drawring" but didn't talk that way otherwise. Boston approach?







  • 23.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-31-2022 16:45
    Susan,

    This is the best I could come up with. Evidently there is no clear consensus as to how or where "wicked" came to mean "very" or "extremely".

    https://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/2017/10/13/wicked/

    HTH

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Posted 08-31-2022 17:43

    Hi, Peter

    I had no idea! I didn't know it was associated with a locality.

    I will say this -- a lot of pianos made in Boston in the golden age are wicked good, like a certain 1919 Vose upright I've been happy to tune once a year for a long time.






  • 25.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Member
    Posted 08-31-2022 23:01
    Mason & Hamlin, Chickering & Sons, Emerson, McPhail, Henry Miller, Ivers & Pond - Vose are all Boston built pianos. Many are wicked good....

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-25-2022 10:45
    We had a short-lived Baldwin dealer in my town that just happened to be from around 1978 to 1982, so I have done a lot of Corfam replacement. My clients are generally looking for "do the least amount of work as possible to fix the problem", like working on an old upright. I have never addressed flange friction besides dealing with a few that were extremely tight or loose. I don't even always reshape the hammers, depending on the piano and client. I don't find aligning hammers grooves to strings a particularly painstaking process.

    I generally find Corfam replacement an easy sell and an enjoyable job. Even if it ends up being more than the value of the piano, for most clients, when you consider the cost and hassle of moving their piano out, finding another one, moving it in, and getting it prepped, getting the work done seems worth it.

    ------------------------------
    Peter Stevenson RPT
    P.S. Piano Service
    Prince George BC
    (250) 562-5358
    ps@pspianos.com
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Posted 08-30-2022 12:42
    Thank you Peter.  I remember working on a few of these in the late 80's when I was an apprentice.  I haven't ran into them in the decades since, so it will take me a bit of time to get back in the groove..so to speak.  :-)

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Greene
    OWNER
    Knoxville TN
    (865) 384-6582
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-01-2022 07:56
    Patrick,

    The butts are not shown in the photo, but if the catchers are corefam 1, the butt skins are also.
    Corefam 1 is black. 

    You might check the hammer return springs to see if they are: broken, disconnected, weak, or all of these. 
    It looks like the bridal straps are pretty taught, so that's probably not a contributing factor. 

    Let's talk about this at the me chapter meeting on Sept. 13. If you could bring a hammer assembly, that would be great. 
    I don't have any leftovers. But we may have leftover pizza. 

    Dave

    ------------------------------
    Dave Conte

    University of Tennessee
    Knoxville TN
    (817) 307-5656
    Owner: Rocky Top Piano
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Posted 09-01-2022 23:51
    Hey Dave,

    Thanks for this.  I just received the escaine or whatever you call it and I plan to work on the action this weekend.  The customer wants it returned to her soon.. haha.

    Patrick

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Greene
    OWNER
    Knoxville TN
    (865) 384-6582
    ------------------------------



  • 30.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-02-2022 08:02

    Hi, Patrick. 

    That's the best solution. The hardest part will be getting the old buggers off,
    especially the catchers. Good luck. See you on Sept. 13. 

    Dave
    --





  • 31.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Posted 09-02-2022 10:06

    Ecsaine, with the c and s contrary to expectations. If I remember right, it was invented by the Japanese, which accounts for the somewhat strange spelling.






  • 32.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-02-2022 10:40
    Yes, Susan. A most common mistake. 

    Should probably be spelled: excsaine or ecksaine. 
    Would still get mis-pronounced. 






  • 33.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-02-2022 12:59
    It's enough to drive one insaine.  -:)

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 34.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-03-2022 13:43
    New leather might not help response/repetition much. I'd check key up weights. Keys may need some lead added in back.


  • 35.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Posted 09-11-2022 10:30
    Good idea as well.  I will see once I get it re-installed.  After doing whatever, I still suspect that it may not meet the customer's specifications.  She is playing highly repetitive music and I just fear that this piano has reached it's limit.

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Greene
    OWNER
    Knoxville TN
    (865) 384-6582
    ------------------------------



  • 36.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Posted 09-11-2022 11:47
    I am also glad that I only committed to fixing 5 hammer butts/catchers

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Greene
    OWNER
    Knoxville TN
    (865) 384-6582
    ------------------------------



  • 37.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-11-2022 12:23
    So you replaced the corfam with ecsaine on just 5 notes? Did you check flange friction on multiple parts? Half a jiffy lead may be helpful if the existing key weighting is insufficient.

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Draine RPT
    Billerica MA
    (978) 663-9690
    ------------------------------



  • 38.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Posted 09-11-2022 13:22
    For US made verticals, I usually install 1 backlead to effect a -6 grams FW on the white keys. The black keys always have a heavier Touch Weight, usually by ~+6 grams. Notes A0 & C8 are made to reflect the same FW, usually installing 2 back leads due to the bulk at the front of the keystick.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 39.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Posted 09-11-2022 13:29
    Hello Patrick,

    Yes, I had checked the flange friction on several other ones just to be sure and they are working freely.  Its the corfam definitely that is the culprit here.  I am going to let the customer know that what happened with these 5 notes is going to continue to occur throughout the piano and my recommendation is to sell/give it away and purchase a newer one.  It's kicking the can down the road, but at the end of the day, the cost of the repair is going to outweigh the worth of the instrument.  I have never priced one of these jobs, but I could see this requiring a lot of shop time.
    Thank you for the lead suggestion.

    So you replaced the corfam with ecsaine on just 5 notes? Did you check flange friction on multiple parts? Half a jiffy lead may be helpful if the existing key weighting is insufficient.

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Greene
    OWNER
    Knoxville TN
    (865) 384-6582
    ------------------------------



  • 40.  RE: Baldwin Hamilton

    Posted 09-12-2022 20:51
    Repinning the wippen flanges made a big difference. 
    Check the machining of the Birdseyes. The ones on mine looked weird.
    Also just tightening the hammer flange screws made it repeat better. 
    I had one guy do Chopin,, full on, freshly rehearsed. 
    It repeats amazingly well.

    ------------------------------
    Keith Roberts
    owner
    Hathaway Pines CA
    (209) 770-4312
    ------------------------------