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Bosendorfer breaking strings

  • 1.  Bosendorfer breaking strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-01-2022 17:38
    I've taken care of a Bosendorfer 225 for several years now. The piano is notorious for breaking strings in the capo section, top two sections. I have a theory that the capo bar, which is removable in this case, was over hardened. The strings are always breaking at the bar, not at the pin or anywhere else.  It's not the hammer or voicing I am certain. Has anyone else ever encountered this and how would you test if the bar has been over hardened short of asking Bosendorfer to send me another one, which I may do. The piano is only about 15 years old.

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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
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  • 2.  RE: Bosendorfer breaking strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-01-2022 18:41
    I am supposed to be restringing one of these shortly for this very reason, however this one is 40+ years old. Been snapping strings up there for about 10 or 15 years. Hammers are well worn and he plays with intensity.  IIRC they do break at the capo.

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 3.  RE: Bosendorfer breaking strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-01-2022 20:08
    The most common reason for strings breaking at the capo bar, and even at agraffe's, is that the player is over playing the piano. In other words, they are playing too hard/aggressively for what the instrument was designed to handle. Every time I have encountered this, overplaying has been the cause. In general, replacing strings, or even the capo bar in this case, may help for a while, but if the player keeps playing that hard the strings are going to continue to break. At the capo bar, not the tuning pin. Best quick fix is to de-regulate a bit so that the amount of power delivered to the strings by the hammers is reduced. Best long term fix is to get not a better piano but a larger piano. One that can handle the power. 

    The reason for string breakage at termination points, like agraffe's and capo's, is that when played hard enough the string is not just vibrating at that termination point, it is actually bending a little bit. Take any piece of wire and bend it in the same spot enough time and it will break. 

    That said, the 225 is just over 7' so you'd think it could handle aggressive playing. It might be worth your time to give Yamaha tech support a call to see what they say.

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    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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  • 4.  RE: Bosendorfer breaking strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-01-2022 20:11
    This might be an idea obvious question, but are the strings breaking because of an overly aggressively piano player?

    Wim

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 5.  RE: Bosendorfer breaking strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-01-2022 22:38
    I worked on a 225 of that vintage and it too had some broken strings at the capo clustered in the 6th octave, a couple broke on me and I wasn't using test blows. I'm fairly certain that the player is not a pounder in any respect, but elderly ladies can fool you I guess. 
    Talking to someone at Yamaha who has a broad view of how these instruments are holding up sounds like a good idea. Since this doesn't seem to be completely uncommon, a new capo might not be an improvement. Maybe they just need new wires on a regular basis.
    I recall that some Kawai grands that broke a lot of strings in the treble turned out to have unusually high tensions in those sections. It could be a combination of factors.
    Good chance to practice your fancy loops anyway.


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    Steven Rosenthal RPT
    Honolulu HI
    (808) 521-7129
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  • 6.  RE: Bosendorfer breaking strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-01-2022 22:41
    You can order the Bosendorfer strings from Yamaha, complete with the loops tied already. The only problem is, it takes several weeks to get them.

    Wim.

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 7.  RE: Bosendorfer breaking strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-01-2022 23:26
    If you are getting strings I second Wim's suggestion that you get them from Yamaha because, don't forget, ALL Bösendorfer's are scaled to be tuned to 443. At 440 they sound OK but when brought up to proper pitch they just really wake up. If your piano is being tuned to 440 and it is breaking strings at this below scale tension then, yeah, something strange is going on.

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    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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  • 8.  RE: Bosendorfer breaking strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-01-2022 22:50
    You might do calculations on the breaking point of the wire, as dictated by the string speaking length.  I had a S&S baby grand that broke strings at pitch in the top 3 or 4 notes.  I tried different wires, but nothing helped.   A phone call to the service department revealed the clue, the bridges in some pianos were not installed properly and the strings were a bit too long.  Those notes could not be brought to pitch.  Stuff happens. 
    There definitely is a reason for the excess breakage, and if you don't have heavy players abusing the piano, it has to be something that is out of spec.  I don't know anything about these new types of wire that are available, but maybe there's some wire out there that could help.

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    Paul McCloud, RPT
    Accutone Piano Service
    www.AccutonePianoService.com
    pavadasa@gmail.com
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  • 9.  RE: Bosendorfer breaking strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-02-2022 01:28
    I would definitely measure speaking lengths and run some numbers. These situations might be a good reason to consider Paulello Type XM wire.

    As we all know piano wire does suffer fatigue.

    An over hardened capo is interesting food for thought or possibly Capo need a slight more rounding.

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    Tremaine Parsons RPT
    Georgetown CA
    (530) 333-9299
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  • 10.  RE: Bosendorfer breaking strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-02-2022 02:12
    Paul,
    This suggests that we should all be more cognizant of proper string length and tension. I have a simple spreadsheet that calculates tension and breaking point.  It wouldn't be hard to print off a table of ideal string lengths to compare with customer's breaking strings to see if that isn't the problem.

    However...
    I have a Kawai 9' with lots of breaking treble strings, all at the capo bar.  The hammers on this are beat to hell; and it isn't all that old of a piano.  The owner is likely taking out his life's agressions on his piano.  

    Every piano I have ever seen with frequent breaking strings, not attributable to rust is most likely due to over playing (bar pianos, student pianos, frustrated musician pianos).

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    Blaine Hebert RPT
    Duarte CA
    (626) 795-5170
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  • 11.  RE: Bosendorfer breaking strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-02-2022 02:24
    Yes, my experience as well.  Gospel churches, cruise ship Chinese stencil pianos, schools, etc.  One church had purchased a new Baldwin L because the old piano had so many broken strings.  Guess what?  The new one did too, and they blamed me for it.  Was it the guest choral groups that regularly visited and beat the d*vll out of it?  Of course not. 
    C'est la vie.
    But, as David said, it's not the player in this case.  So, gotta look somewhere else.

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    Paul McCloud, RPT
    Accutone Piano Service
    www.AccutonePianoService.com
    pavadasa@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Bosendorfer breaking strings

    Posted 06-02-2022 06:44
    This is why through tuning, and getting musicians to be rewarded by their sound, their tonality, rather than their brute beat my mission has been to bring music, real music, back to what is called music. Apparently there are music colleges who tell their students that unless they break strings they can't play Liszt. This is depressing and increasingly is a turn-off of the general public from music, and that's bad for business.

    Here's someone playing Liszt big without breaking strings - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buDzqBuwm3I One commentator observes: 
    "This performance is exceptional and unexpected. Different from the way Liszt's sonata is usually played today. But, such a very convincing rendition. Could it be that Liszt himself played it thus? I think maybe, YES! After all, Liszt never performed this work in public: only in private. "

    As professionals in charge of instruments can we influence the way music is played on them? Why has it been the reverse?

    Best wishes

    David P 






  • 13.  RE: Bosendorfer breaking strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-03-2022 12:50
    This discussion reminds me of a Yamaha Upright I dealt with decades ago. It was new, but was breaking bass strings. I called Yamaha about it, and their first question was "Is this in a Gospel Church?" Um, well, yeeesss. "We have a special set of base strings for this, we will send them to you." Once I put them in, no more problems!!
    I know, not the same problem as is being discussed, but a similar problem!
    David Dewey





  • 14.  RE: Bosendorfer breaking strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-02-2022 00:37
    Thanks for the feedback. A couple of notes:

    The player is not an aggressive player.
    The piano is voiced down and actually has a Ronsen hammer on there as he likes it pretty dark and selected that hammer after some sampling. 
    It's tuned to A440 (his preference).
    Bosendorfer does have a high tension scale  but I work on several 225s and none of them break strings like this one. 
    All these factors have made me question whether an over hardened capo might be the problem.  

    I'll check with with the manufacturer and see what they say. It's obviously a major undertaking to replace the capo bar and restring the top sections and not something I want to do without some sense that that's the actual problem. 

    (Tying loops doesn't  bother me but I'm sure it's easier to order them-that's not really at issue here) 





  • 15.  RE: Bosendorfer breaking strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-02-2022 06:53
    David, Ray Chandler gave a presentation on Bosendorfers at a PTG convention a few years back, he discussed the removable capo bars (including passing one around for us all to take a good look at). He made it seem like replacing them was no big deal.

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    Patrick Draine RPT
    Billerica MA
    (978) 663-9690
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  • 16.  RE: Bosendorfer breaking strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-02-2022 07:00

    When I was self- employed back in the Seattle area, I had a very good customer with 2 Bozey grands.  The one on the right kept breaking strings.  I removed the capo and with help from my mentor, Steve Brady, we reshaped the bar as it was too wide at the v-bar.  Then I restrung the top capo section and we never had another broken string.

    Paul

     






  • 17.  RE: Bosendorfer breaking strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-02-2022 11:12
    Patrick:
    I probably overstated that, pulling the capo bar and restringing the top two sections is pretty straight forward but it's still an undertaking if that's not the problem and decommissions the piano for a bit.  The work can easily be done in a day but several days or weeks before the tuning is stabilized again.  Of course if it turns out that the capo bar is the problem, which I'm inclined to believe it is, that's what will end up happening but I'm trying to get some validation for my hypothesis before I proceed and if it turns out the bar needs some treatment of some type I want to be able to do what's needed and, hopefully, just once.  

    Blaine et al:
    I haven't yet measured the scale lengths in the section and run the tensions.  I can do that although I'm not sure what I could do about it other than consider a different wire.  There's no reasonable plan to recap the bridge and shorten the speaking lengths.  

    Will:
    He is the original owner but the piano was used as a concert rental for a couple of years.  When he first got it the piano was restrung for the same reason and no improvement.  There are no breakage problems below the capo section btw.  The hammers that were on there were worn and had been voiced down quite a bit such that replacing was necessary.  He wanted something on there that was very soft as he really prefers a much darker sound and so we sampled some hammers to get a sense.  They are Ronsen Wurzen felt 14lb.  It's not the hammer that I would necessarily choose for that piano, it's a bit too soft, but he plays a lot and within a month or two the hammers had played in to a very nice level, only a very mild stiffening from about F#5 to the top--no it's not the hardener that's the problem.  

    I have a message in to Bosendorfer and waiting a response.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Bosendorfer breaking strings

    Posted 06-02-2022 11:56
    David, the good news about the Paulello wire is that it stabilizes very quickly after stringing, much less time and fewer tunings to get it there.  I had read that it does that.  I have been using the wire for about 11 years and that has been my consistent experience.  

    I think the speaking lengths are going to be very important information for you to have, whether it is going to tell you that is part of the problem or not.  And what kind of safety margin you have with that piano as is.  

    No matter what the problem turns out to be causing the accelerated fatigue of the wire, the XM will increase your safety margin.  (A different wire!!)

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    Will Truitt
    Bristol NH
    1-603-934-4882
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  • 19.  RE: Bosendorfer breaking strings

    Posted 06-02-2022 07:22
    Ed McMorrow has some very clearly articulated ideas about capo shape and hardness, and how they influence string termination and breakage, backed by decades of experience. Perhaps a discussion with him could help.

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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
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  • 20.  RE: Bosendorfer breaking strings

    Posted 06-02-2022 09:52
    My comment is that most all the suggestions are potentially useful.  In Peter and David's circumstances, both will be restringing at least the top two sections, so removal of the capo bar to examine and decide to replace or properly dress it as suggested, is in order.  If contacting Bosendorfer/Yamaha, a discussion of their current hardening practices with tech support should be sought, so as to know whether or not a replacement capo is going to be a good choice.  If still a really hard capo, then other measures may be needed.

    I would certainly be taking the speaking lengths and gauges for those two sections so as to determine if this individual instrument is observing factory specs (as in not having excessively long speaking lengths which could be raising the breaking percentage into danger territory in an already high tension scale).  

    Peter, I think you and I had a conversation about your heavy handed customer a few months ago.  We know that heavily used concert instruments often get restrung after only 8 or 10 years because of the stresses that the performers are putting on the strings.  Commonly, string breakage manifests itself in those capo sections.  Sounds like 
    your customer is more or less creating those conditions for himself.

    In either case, putting the numbers into string scaling software is in order to establish what the tensions and breaking percentages are.  

    For Peter's customer, no matter what is decided regarding the Capo bar, Paulello XM wire is in order.  It is the strongest piano wire currently made, and my understanding is that, at least in part, this wire was created to address the conditions that piano wire endures in a concert setting.  He typically recommends its use most often in the capo sections.  Below is a link with a chart for its use in a Steinway D:

    https://www.stephenpaulello.com/sites/default/files/paulello/fiches-montage/steinwayden.pdf

    I have used XM wire in the treble sections on several pianos, usually in the top two gauges.  The XM wire sounds better than the standard because it is less stressed, being at a lower breaking percentage

    Peter, when you get the piano in your shop, send me the numbers and I will drop them into my Abacus excel spreadsheet and give you the comparisons of XM to standard wire.  If you can, drop your numbers into an excel spreadsheet and email them to me.  That way i can copy and paste them into Abacus and it is quick and easy.  David, I can do the same for you if you like.  

    XM wire feels stiffer and is more difficult to handle.  So making your individual eyes will be more of a pain.  I have only made a few of them, usually at the breaks where the third string is a single.  Peter, you may want to send Stephen Paulello an email asking him what type of hitch pin loop works best with XM.  I think he may be recommending a double euro but I am not entirely sure of that.  The XM wire is only available in the 500 gram size, not the larger 2 kg. size, but your usage will more limited.  

    David, is your customer the original owner?  Did you put the Ronsen's on for him?  If so, what kind of wear did the prior (original) set have.  Your guy may not responsible for sins visited upon the piano. 






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    Will Truitt
    Bristol NH
    1-603-934-4882
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  • 21.  RE: Bosendorfer breaking strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-04-2022 08:13
    Will,

    Yes, we have discussed this fairly recently. However I am locked into using factory supplied wire "with knots" (as they refer to them).  I'm pretty sure that the breakage on this piano is simply age and wear. Hammers are very well worn even past the last time I reshaped them and regulated. Plus, he probably won't be playing long enough any more to exacerbate the problem again (speculation). 

    This actually brings up another point which is the hammers. The new hammers (Renner) supplied by Bosendorfer are significantly different from those from 1972 which are on the piano. Overall length and especially moulding length relative to top felt is shorter by a substantial margin. One of the things he loves about this piano is its distinctive "woody?" sound, which I think is in large part due to the style of hammer used back then. 

    Anybody here had experience with Abel's hammer recovering service? I want to explore this as an alternative. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Bosendorfer breaking strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-04-2022 09:28

    Hi Peter:

     

    Perhaps a bit more homework can serve you.  Is Ray Chandler still the Bosey Tech?  He may know or be able to find out who made the hammer in 72, and could make some comparison to present stock.  The OAL and molding length should be of concern as you note.  Sounds like the new hammer will over-center by a substantial margin.  Determine what that would likely be.  If it is great, as in many mm., explain to him the consequences in action performance that will be there in the new stock hammer, no matter what the factory recommends.  Geometry is geometry for everyone. 

     

    I believe you are still taking care of David Kish's D.  The plate was so high that with a stock hammer, the hammers were over-centering by a minimum of 5 mm and a maximum of 8 mm. in the tenor.  Custom boring a stock set of Steinway hammers would have left a nub for a tail.  That's why the Ronsen hammers are on that piano instead of the factory hammers he originally wanted. 

     

    If the newer Bosey hammers are much heavier than the originals would have been, then your strike weights will be considerably different.  The differences in inertia in the action may not be to his taste either.

     

    Do you have any idea whether or not the 1972 hammers would have been cold-pressed?  What is your sense as to what they are?

     

    Will

     

     






  • 23.  RE: Bosendorfer breaking strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-04-2022 11:54
    Eric Johnson would also be an excellent source of information on earlier (pre-Yamaha) Bösendorfer specs and such. His phone is (203) 520-9064, email ejohnson412@gmail.com

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    Patrick Draine RPT
    Billerica MA
    (978) 663-9690
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  • 24.  RE: Bosendorfer breaking strings

    Posted 06-04-2022 16:13
    I have used Abel's recovering service. We chose their "premium" or "organic" felt and it's superb. Mention is made of Ronsen Wurzen hammers being soft but becoming played in within a short time and Abel is a similar concept.

    https://youtu.be/AHAZjcPmtrs?t=730 is the instrument concerned and in my opinion it's very musical.

    Best wishes

    David P

    --
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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594





  • 25.  RE: Bosendorfer breaking strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-05-2022 13:47
    I did install the Ronsens on there.  The previous hammers were pretty worn and he has a real aversion to strident so we sampled some hammers and he really liked those for what he was after, still does.  Those are not hard and very resilient (Wurzen felt) so I really don't think the hammer is contributing to the breaking of strings.  Keep in mind that it's a 20 year old piano and the previous tech decided to restring the piano about 10 years ago, I presume because it was breaking strings.  So these strings are only 10 years old but even after the restringing it started breaking strings pretty soon after.  I will take a measurement of the scale and run some numbers next time I'm there but I haven't really seen much variation in Bosendorfer scale layout.  The tensions are high in that piano so it sits a bit higher in the break point % but it doesn't seem to be a problem in any of the other similar pianos I take care of.  I serviced one form the 1950s that was frequently used for concerts for decades and it never broke strings even with worn out hammers.  That piano belonged to Adolph Baller, well known pianist and teacher and Yehudi Menuhin's former accompanist.  So I suspect there's something about the piano itself.

    I'm not a fan of recovering hammers.  I've never heard a set that I thought sounded that good.  I think the problem might be that in a "re-cover" process it's difficult to capture the same amount of tension in the felt that you find in new sets when the stretching of the felt over the molding is done with one contiguous sheet.  The hammers tend to sound dead to me.

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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Bosendorfer breaking strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-05-2022 17:09
    Pat,

    Thank you for this info. I spoke with Eric and he has supplied me with the contact info for the technical director at the factory in Vienna. I will be contacting him after I get a little more data off the piano. 

    I made a mistake on the year...it's actually from 1979/1980. Eric started there in 1978. He's a little bewildered about this discrepancy as his recollection is that the 225 really has not changed at all in all these years (with just couple of exceptions when Bosendorfer entered the US market back around that time). 

    Will,

    Yes, if I hang these hammers as they are, there is going to be serious overcentering in some areas so I want to get to the bottom of it before biting the bullet.  Maybe they sent the wrong hammers...maybe they were mis labeled...maybe something else?  We shall find out. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: Bosendorfer breaking strings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-09-2022 01:08
    David, Do you happen to know who restrung the piano ten years ago and what kind of wire they might have used? Or, can you find out?

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    Tremaine Parsons RPT
    Georgetown CA
    (530) 333-9299
    ------------------------------