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Brass hammer flange rail

  • 1.  Brass hammer flange rail

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 20 days ago
      |   view attached

    … for lack of a better name? I need to get an estimate out for rebuilding a family heirloom Everett upright. New action parts if possible. Upon inspection, I noticed this brass part looks like it could pose some problems. Any words of wisdom in taking on a job like this would be appreciated. 

    Thanks!



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    Tim Foster RPT
    New Oxford PA
    (470) 231-6074
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  • 2.  RE: Brass hammer flange rail

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 20 days ago
    I would be very leery about rebuilding this piano, That's a brass rail action. After many years, brass gets weak and those tabs break. Schaff used to offer replacement service but I don't know if they still do. 

    Wim Blees 





  • 3.  RE: Brass hammer flange rail

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 20 days ago

    Do not use Schaff for brass rail duplication. Check with Blackstone or a machinist.  Better yet, install a complete WNG action.



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    Parker Leigh RPT
    Winchester VA
    (540) 722-3865
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  • 4.  RE: Brass hammer flange rail

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 20 days ago

    I have never done it but the brass could be annealed, which would make it less prone to breaking.



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    Paul McCloud, RPT
    Accutone Piano Service
    www.AccutonePianoService.com
    pavadasa@gmail.com
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  • 5.  RE: Brass hammer flange rail

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 19 days ago
    I have had annealing done on discontinued brass parts. It's a little expensive, but 
    probably not any more expensive than replacement if it can be found.

    If you are going to have these annealed, bring along some other brass items 
    that might be available and benefit from it. The cost is usually by the job, not by the piece. 

    I recall seeing some individual repair parts for broken brass rails in a parts catalogues so this was probably more common when these pianos were. They may still be available. As has already been mentioned, the tabs are more prone to fail, but the rails can still be subject to. 

    --
    Dave Conte, RPT, CCT
    Owner, Rocky Top Piano
    Knoxville, TN
    817-307-5656







  • 6.  RE: Brass hammer flange rail

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 20 days ago

    You may want to consult with Brooks about converting from brass to wood rails, which would allow for the use of standard wooden parts.



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    Parker Leigh RPT
    Winchester VA
    (540) 722-3865
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  • 7.  RE: Brass hammer flange rail

    Posted 19 days ago

    Here's what i do when i have these types of uprights come in. Because of my decades of experience piano rebuilding, i have saved up odd parts such as these rails. Tabs breaking off of the rail is rare actually. What breaks more often are the little individual tabs, which if are available from Schaff, should be no big deal to replace them.  If a rail tab is broken I splice in a new section under that single hammer butt. Easy to do when the action parts are all off the rails. Although the brass rail didn't become the norm, i'm not bothered by them at all.

    -chris



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    Chernobieff Piano Restorations
    chrisppff@gmail.com
    Youtube@chernobieffpiano
    865-986-7720 (text only please)
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  • 8.  RE: Brass hammer flange rail

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 19 days ago

    Rails as well as tabs can break. Schaff does not have parts that will fit.  Find a good machinist or get away from brass. Old brass gets brittle with age as well as use.



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    Parker Leigh RPT
    Winchester VA
    (540) 722-3865
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  • 9.  RE: Brass hammer flange rail

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 19 days ago
    I'll expand on my earlier post on annealing brass rails.  I consider actions with brass rails to be exceptionally good quality, and the brass rail design superior in most ways;  it is not susceptible to humidity swings, and it is more rigid in supporting good tone.  Mechanically the design is more firm, as well.  

    First, the Schaff catalog still includes a brass rail duplication service, item 595.  However, it doesn't show up in the actual online webstore, so I don't know if it's still available.  The one time I had this done, I was very satisfied.  No doubt a machine shop could also duplicate the rails, but the design is complex and the cost will be high.  But if the rails are not damaged they can be annealed.

    There is a likelihood that the brass rails are brittle, and tongues can and do break at their weakest spots (the notch for the centerpin, or at the screw hole).  If the rails are intact they are brittle, but well worth saving and re-using.   Brittle brass rails can be annealed to remove the brittleness by placing in the oven broiler at top heat for 30 minutes.  This is true for unbroken brass butt plates too, but the brass is softer after annealing and butt plates are thinner and susceptible to bending.  

    If you doubt this, try bending an unbroken butt plate between two pliers.  It will not bend, but snap, usually at the screw hole.  But annealed, it will bend.  The butt plates are a little more difficult, because they are more likely to have begun to break, and some will have hairline cracks you don't easily see.   So it is preferable to buy new butt plates.  These butt plates will fit the overwhelming number of American brass rail actions.   (I HAVE used annealed butt plates with success, but it's sometimes very tough to see hairline cracks in the butt plate, so there's some risk - you can try to bend each butt plate after annealing with just enough force to break a damaged butt plate, to eliminate bad ones.  Some shops have dismantled old butt plate actions, and the old butt plates might be useful as spares, if you're re-using butt plates.)

    Brass is very expensive today, especially when compared to the cost of a short use of the oven!

    Tokiwa makes a high quality butt for the brass rail, item 05 U508T with Pacific Piano Supply Co (Schaff has this part also).  

    Some builders have cost-prohibitive needs:

    Chickering uprights with brass rails are an entirely different challenge, as the design is different, typically a Schwander return spring is used and the spring cord is tied to the brass butt plate.  Further, the Chickering butt plate is very thin.   I have replaced Chickering brass rails with Schwander butts and flanges with some success, and have re-used the brass parts too (a new cord must be made for the Schwander style spring).  

    Kimballs with brass rails are not usually worth the trouble, as there are also very thin butt plates for the damper flanges.  These actions are usually too far along in deterioration.  I find that the best Kimball verticals are those with a standard Schwander wood flange system.  The current market for pianos will probably result in all Kimballs headed to the dump, but if grandma's piano HAS to be saved and money is no object....a spare Kimball action from a tossed Kimball will provide annealable used brass parts.

    Finally, if your brass rail has a broken tongue it is possible to repair the tongue by silver soldering.  This is a very strong repair. 

    Bill

    Bill Shull, RPT, M.Mus.
    Shull Piano
    Period Piano Collection
    909 796-4226






  • 10.  RE: Brass hammer flange rail

    Posted 19 days ago
    As Parker suggested, one good option would be to convert to wooden rail for wooden flanges. I did that on a M&H upright. Wasn’t too big a job and came out very nice.

    Terry Farrell




  • 11.  RE: Brass hammer flange rail

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 19 days ago
    There is a publication from Bill Spurlock about installing new hammers on upright pianos. Within that publication, there are some instructions on how to convert a brass rail to a standard flange rail. I have never done that conversion, though it doesn’t look too difficult. All of Bill Spurlock‘s publications used to be available on Spurlock specialty tools, though I haven’t checked so I don’t know if they’re still available.

    Joe Wiencek
    NYC




  • 12.  RE: Brass hammer flange rail

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 18 days ago

    Tim,

    Conversion to standard wood flanges may prove to be a viable alternative to rail duplication or annealing. At least you now have various options to present to your client, based on what you find upon dis-assembly. I personally like the conversion idea. I was able to find some abbreviated instructions and it seems reasonable.  

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 13.  RE: Brass hammer flange rail

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 18 days ago
    I imagine you would want to duplicate as close as possible the flange center pin position (butt center pin in a brass rail configuration,) and butt height and profile. It may prove a challenge to find appropriate replacement parts. I recommend trying out samples as best you can find before proceeding.

    Or, you can rebuild the original parts with new leather, felt, bushings, etc. It’s definitely a project. Good luck!

    Joe Wiencek
    NYC




  • 14.  RE: Brass hammer flange rail

    Posted 18 days ago
    That’s how I did my M&H upright. I followed Bill’s instructions. Worked very well.




  • 15.  RE: Brass hammer flange rail

    Posted 17 days ago
    The spurlock method is super easy.
    The brass rail is the template. 
    You adjust so the center pin of the new flange is at the same height as original. 
    The flanges need a horizontal groove cut in them. He used a brass or copper wire that as you install the flanges it pins the wire. 
    The wire keeps the flanges from rotating. 
    Very simple. 
    Once the screw holes are marked, the hard part is drilling 88 holes the right size and depth. 
    I don't remember whether he fitted the old butts or used new ones.
    Keith






  • 16.  RE: Brass hammer flange rail

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 17 days ago

    This is all great information, thank you so much! I wasn't able to locate the article on the Spurlock website, does anybody have access to it or can you point me in the right direction? Thank you again!



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    Tim Foster RPT
    New Oxford PA
    (470) 231-6074
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  • 17.  RE: Brass hammer flange rail

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 17 days ago

    Original butts would not have a flange so one would have to use new ones WITH flanges. 

    Ideally, I would opt (after extremely careful examination with magnification) for annealing and re-using the original brass rail and new butt plates. But if I had any  doubts about its integrity, I would likely go with conversion these days. Drilling the holes should not be too difficult since the action will stripped anyway. Scribe a horizontal horizontal line at the height required, then transcribe the centers from the old rail. Set up the drill press and drill. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 18.  RE: Brass hammer flange rail

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 17 days ago

    Tim,

    I have a bunch of Bill's instruction sheets around "somewhere". Maybe I have what you're looking for. I'll dig around. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 19.  RE: Brass hammer flange rail

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 16 days ago

    Tim,

    If the brass rails do not have any broken mounting posts I would not automatically assume they are going to fail. I see a good number of 100+ year pianos where the rails are fine and only need plates replaced. Within that last year or so someone posted in the Journal a neat way to deal with a broken rail post. Repin the adjacent left and right butts without cutting the excess centerpin and mounting the broken post butt on the extended untrimmed centerpins from each adjacent butt. 



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    Tremaine Parsons RPT
    Georgetown CA
    (530) 333-9299
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  • 20.  RE: Brass hammer flange rail

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 16 days ago

    Two files. Spurlock vertical hammer and a old Pianotech discussion about it.



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    Mike McCoy, RPT
    Cape May Courthouse NJ
    Chapters 170 & 080
    mike@mccoyspiano.com
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    Attachment(s)



  • 21.  RE: Brass hammer flange rail

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 16 days ago

    If the action is ws&g the brass may be ok but age is still an issue. Brooks can do the conversion for you if you are squeamish. I still favor conversion over brass.  You would use slotted flanges with wire.



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    Parker Leigh RPT
    Winchester VA
    (540) 722-3865
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  • 22.  RE: Brass hammer flange rail

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10 days ago

    I found this, is this the Spurlock article referenced in this thread? End of page 1 and 2. It seems a little stingy on details…

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ictr6-sKks4PCsxMGzS7WbysX9hQQ1vO/view?usp=drivesdk



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    Tim Foster RPT
    New Oxford PA
    (470) 231-6074
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  • 23.  RE: Brass hammer flange rail

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10 days ago

    Hi Tim and all,

    I replied a few days ago and uploaded the Spurlock document  that cover it and a old pianotech discussion that went into more detail. I last week aquired my Great Grandmothers Cunningham with brass rails and planned to convert (not sure why, I have no need for the piano and it would be difficult to sell) but the rails and butts and all is great condition, reconsidering it now.



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    Mike McCoy, RPT
    Cape May Courthouse NJ
    Chapters 170 & 080
    mike@mccoyspiano.com
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    Attachment(s)



  • 24.  RE: Brass hammer flange rail

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10 days ago

    Mike, many thanks, I completely missed this!



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    Tim Foster RPT
    New Oxford PA
    (470) 231-6074
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