Pianotech

Hi - This last comment doesn't help. I have never reported/flagged a post. There has only been one ever that I would have flagged, but someone beat me to it, thank goodness. We're an odd lot, and some of us find humor in some things that others don't & vice-versa. The Communications Committee has rules they must follow once a member flags a post. You won't know who flagged it unless said person lets you know all by themselves. When people react too strongly (I don't think you did, David, but you gave me a platform), it only makes their job harder. Try to see them, in a way, as innocent bystanders who get caught in crossfires & give them a break. It's a thankless job & can sometimes takes a LOT of time. If the last post here gets flagged, my comment will disappear with it because I replied to it. That's how this works. Now, go out and tune a piano to bring more beautiful music into the world! ;-) 

Non of the following are political:

Hi - This last comment doesn't help. I have never reported/flagged a post. There has only been one ever that I would have flagged, but someone beat me to it, thank goodness. We're an odd lot, and some of us find humor in some things that others don't & vice-versa. The Communications Committee has rules they must follow once a member flags a post. You won't know who flagged it unless said person lets you know all by themselves. When people react too strongly (I don't think you did, David, but you gave me a platform), it only makes their job harder. Try to see them, in a way, as innocent bystanders who get caught in crossfires & give them a break. It's a thankless job & can sometimes takes a LOT of time. If the last post here gets flagged, my comment will disappear with it because I replied to it. That's how this works. Now, go out and tune a piano to bring more beautiful music into the world! ;-) 

Hi - This last comment doesn't help. I have never reported/flagged a post. There has only been one ever that I would have flagged, but someone beat me to it, thank goodness. We're an odd lot, and some of us find humor in some things that others don't & vice-versa. The Communications Committee has rules they must follow once a member flags a post. You won't know who flagged it unless said person lets you know all by themselves. When people react too strongly (I don't think you did, David, but you gave me a platform), it only makes their job harder. Try to see them, in a way, as innocent bystanders who get caught in crossfires & give them a break. It's a thankless job & can sometimes takes a LOT of time. If the last post here gets flagged, my comment will disappear with it because I replied to it. That's how this works. Now, go out and tune a piano to bring more beautiful music into the world! ;-) 

David L. makes a salient point. The current administration is harassing/erasing any group or person associated with the term DEI, even going so far as trying to strong-arm foreign governments who employ those policies. They have already attacked corporations and law firms and have terminated government employees who are not currently working in those programs but had had been assigned to them in the past. It is probably only a matter of time before they get down to tiny groups like the PTG; our DEI policy is easily found with a simple google search. If this doesn't seem extreme to you, it does to me.

The subtext of the humorous posts made by me and others in David's thread is that we should be preparing for this.

Perhaps this is something better taken up in the PTG-L forum.

On a more technical note, Beginning April 9, we should be prepared for our costs for foreign made parts and materials to go up by 20-50% or more. This will affect even US manufacturers if they are using foreign felt for example. If you have estimates out, you should amend them or at least inform your clients. It's bound to affect the costs of things like car maintenance as well.

Apparently we are entering a post constitutional era, the new framers are the authors of Project 2025 and their agenda is to enforce the traditional mores of hearth and family. This is not my "opinion", this is what is happening on the ground and sanctioned by the current administration and majority party in both houses of Congress. 

As a group we darn well should be thinking about this strategically.

Thanks Steve, I agree and also share your concern about the tariffs.  In fact, I just started another thread about that very issue which should be of concern to all of us. EU parts from Renner, Abel, Heller; Canadian parts from Bolduc and various bass string makers not to mention Sitka and other types of spruce; numerous Japanese products that I use, damper felt, back actions, tools, shanks, wippens, etc, not to mention the costs of pianos themselves of foreign manufacture.  They will all see fairly dramatic price increases at a time when we are concerned about inflation.  Make no mistake, so are our customers.  The cost of parts can be the difference in a job going forward or not. Perhaps in an affluent are such as I live, it's less of an issue.  But many of the folks I work for are not of high means; teachers, musicians, arts organizations, universities, churches, students.  For them it can be the difference between a job going forward or not unless, of course, we compensate somehow, i.e. we take the hit or deflate our labor costs at the same time that other costs are rising. For the sake of what???

As far as the PTG goes, what are they doing about it?  Are they representing our interests with any lobbying efforts or are they simply hiding in fear of retribution?  What efforts have been made and what efforts are anticipated?  So far, I see more efforts being put into pulling down posts that ruffle the feathers of a few pathetic individuals who can't handle a bit of irony.

As for the DEI issue, I think it's important. I've been in this industry now for 50 years. When I joined it was a very white male dominated industry.  Still seems to be, though now more populated by an Asian contingent (full disclosure, my mother is a Chinese immigrant) and a growing number of women.  That is a welcome evolution.  But I can't help but notice that women in the guild have formed their own discussion groups presumably to avoid some of the toxic male dominance.  But do we reach out to underserved communities to attract people to the trade?  There's a lot of opportunity there in various minority communities serving dual functions: introducing non-college educated individuals to a trade that offers real possibilities for livelihood plus serving the communities that, bluntly, many of my white colleagues are afraid to go into.  If we are doing that, I don't see it manifesting in the convention populations or PTG roster. So what is our commitment there and what will it be now that such programs are under fire?  Will we pull language from our mission statement in fear of retribution?  Do we get any federal grant funding that afraid of losing?  Will we simply try to stay under the radar and out of harm's way?  That would be a sorry capitulation.  

I don't think this discussion should take place behind the closed doors of PTG-L.  It should be public.  I send many people to these forums, laypeople, musicians, hobbyists, teachers, in order to keep themselves better informed about how the trade works and the issues they might not quite understand with their own instruments.  That's so I can better serve their needs and elevate the level of the conversation we have about their pianos. If we can't be public about our mission values and goals, then we have no business being here IMO. We can all disagree about policy, whether trade or national, but until we have common values there can be no further discussion.  I want the PTG to be very up front about their values and to stand behind them--walk the walk, not just engage in virtue signaling.  Right now I think that's more important than ever as the current admin is pushing hard against that.  Maybe that means you have to take a punch once in a while.   

David L. makes a salient point. The current administration is harassing/erasing any group or person associated with the term DEI, even going so far as trying to strong-arm foreign governments who employ those policies. They have already attacked corporations and law firms and have terminated government employees who are not currently working in those programs but had had been assigned to them in the past. It is probably only a matter of time before they get down to tiny groups like the PTG; our DEI policy is easily found with a simple google search. If this doesn't seem extreme to you, it does to me.

The subtext of the humorous posts made by me and others in David's thread is that we should be preparing for this.

Perhaps this is something better taken up in the PTG-L forum.

On a more technical note, Beginning April 9, we should be prepared for our costs for foreign made parts and materials to go up by 20-50% or more. This will affect even US manufacturers if they are using foreign felt for example. If you have estimates out, you should amend them or at least inform your clients. It's bound to affect the costs of things like car maintenance as well.

Apparently we are entering a post constitutional era, the new framers are the authors of Project 2025 and their agenda is to enforce the traditional mores of hearth and family. This is not my "opinion", this is what is happening on the ground and sanctioned by the current administration and majority party in both houses of Congress. 

As a group we darn well should be thinking about this strategically.

Thanks Steve, I agree and also share your concern about the tariffs.  In fact, I just started another thread about that very issue which should be of concern to all of us. EU parts from Renner, Abel, Heller; Canadian parts from Bolduc and various bass string makers not to mention Sitka and other types of spruce; numerous Japanese products that I use, damper felt, back actions, tools, shanks, wippens, etc, not to mention the costs of pianos themselves of foreign manufacture.  They will all see fairly dramatic price increases at a time when we are concerned about inflation.  Make no mistake, so are our customers.  The cost of parts can be the difference in a job going forward or not. Perhaps in an affluent are such as I live, it's less of an issue.  But many of the folks I work for are not of high means; teachers, musicians, arts organizations, universities, churches, students.  For them it can be the difference between a job going forward or not unless, of course, we compensate somehow, i.e. we take the hit or deflate our labor costs at the same time that other costs are rising. For the sake of what???

As far as the PTG goes, what are they doing about it?  Are they representing our interests with any lobbying efforts or are they simply hiding in fear of retribution?  What efforts have been made and what efforts are anticipated?  So far, I see more efforts being put into pulling down posts that ruffle the feathers of a few pathetic individuals who can't handle a bit of irony.

As for the DEI issue, I think it's important. I've been in this industry now for 50 years. When I joined it was a very white male dominated industry.  Still seems to be, though now more populated by an Asian contingent (full disclosure, my mother is a Chinese immigrant) and a growing number of women.  That is a welcome evolution.  But I can't help but notice that women in the guild have formed their own discussion groups presumably to avoid some of the toxic male dominance.  But do we reach out to underserved communities to attract people to the trade?  There's a lot of opportunity there in various minority communities serving dual functions: introducing non-college educated individuals to a trade that offers real possibilities for livelihood plus serving the communities that, bluntly, many of my white colleagues are afraid to go into.  If we are doing that, I don't see it manifesting in the convention populations or PTG roster. So what is our commitment there and what will it be now that such programs are under fire?  Will we pull language from our mission statement in fear of retribution?  Do we get any federal grant funding that afraid of losing?  Will we simply try to stay under the radar and out of harm's way?  That would be a sorry capitulation.  

I don't think this discussion should take place behind the closed doors of PTG-L.  It should be public.  I send many people to these forums, laypeople, musicians, hobbyists, teachers, in order to keep themselves better informed about how the trade works and the issues they might not quite understand with their own instruments.  That's so I can better serve their needs and elevate the level of the conversation we have about their pianos. If we can't be public about our mission values and goals, then we have no business being here IMO. We can all disagree about policy, whether trade or national, but until we have common values there can be no further discussion.  I want the PTG to be very up front about their values and to stand behind them--walk the walk, not just engage in virtue signaling.  Right now I think that's more important than ever as the current admin is pushing hard against that.  Maybe that means you have to take a punch once in a while.   

David L. makes a salient point. The current administration is harassing/erasing any group or person associated with the term DEI, even going so far as trying to strong-arm foreign governments who employ those policies. They have already attacked corporations and law firms and have terminated government employees who are not currently working in those programs but had had been assigned to them in the past. It is probably only a matter of time before they get down to tiny groups like the PTG; our DEI policy is easily found with a simple google search. If this doesn't seem extreme to you, it does to me.

The subtext of the humorous posts made by me and others in David's thread is that we should be preparing for this.

Perhaps this is something better taken up in the PTG-L forum.

On a more technical note, Beginning April 9, we should be prepared for our costs for foreign made parts and materials to go up by 20-50% or more. This will affect even US manufacturers if they are using foreign felt for example. If you have estimates out, you should amend them or at least inform your clients. It's bound to affect the costs of things like car maintenance as well.

Apparently we are entering a post constitutional era, the new framers are the authors of Project 2025 and their agenda is to enforce the traditional mores of hearth and family. This is not my "opinion", this is what is happening on the ground and sanctioned by the current administration and majority party in both houses of Congress. 

As a group we darn well should be thinking about this strategically.

Thanks Steve, I agree and also share your concern about the tariffs.  In fact, I just started another thread about that very issue which should be of concern to all of us. EU parts from Renner, Abel, Heller; Canadian parts from Bolduc and various bass string makers not to mention Sitka and other types of spruce; numerous Japanese products that I use, damper felt, back actions, tools, shanks, wippens, etc, not to mention the costs of pianos themselves of foreign manufacture.  They will all see fairly dramatic price increases at a time when we are concerned about inflation.  Make no mistake, so are our customers.  The cost of parts can be the difference in a job going forward or not. Perhaps in an affluent are such as I live, it's less of an issue.  But many of the folks I work for are not of high means; teachers, musicians, arts organizations, universities, churches, students.  For them it can be the difference between a job going forward or not unless, of course, we compensate somehow, i.e. we take the hit or deflate our labor costs at the same time that other costs are rising. For the sake of what???

As far as the PTG goes, what are they doing about it?  Are they representing our interests with any lobbying efforts or are they simply hiding in fear of retribution?  What efforts have been made and what efforts are anticipated?  So far, I see more efforts being put into pulling down posts that ruffle the feathers of a few pathetic individuals who can't handle a bit of irony.

As for the DEI issue, I think it's important. I've been in this industry now for 50 years. When I joined it was a very white male dominated industry.  Still seems to be, though now more populated by an Asian contingent (full disclosure, my mother is a Chinese immigrant) and a growing number of women.  That is a welcome evolution.  But I can't help but notice that women in the guild have formed their own discussion groups presumably to avoid some of the toxic male dominance.  But do we reach out to underserved communities to attract people to the trade?  There's a lot of opportunity there in various minority communities serving dual functions: introducing non-college educated individuals to a trade that offers real possibilities for livelihood plus serving the communities that, bluntly, many of my white colleagues are afraid to go into.  If we are doing that, I don't see it manifesting in the convention populations or PTG roster. So what is our commitment there and what will it be now that such programs are under fire?  Will we pull language from our mission statement in fear of retribution?  Do we get any federal grant funding that afraid of losing?  Will we simply try to stay under the radar and out of harm's way?  That would be a sorry capitulation.  

I don't think this discussion should take place behind the closed doors of PTG-L.  It should be public.  I send many people to these forums, laypeople, musicians, hobbyists, teachers, in order to keep themselves better informed about how the trade works and the issues they might not quite understand with their own instruments.  That's so I can better serve their needs and elevate the level of the conversation we have about their pianos. If we can't be public about our mission values and goals, then we have no business being here IMO. We can all disagree about policy, whether trade or national, but until we have common values there can be no further discussion.  I want the PTG to be very up front about their values and to stand behind them--walk the walk, not just engage in virtue signaling.  Right now I think that's more important than ever as the current admin is pushing hard against that.  Maybe that means you have to take a punch once in a while.   

David L. makes a salient point. The current administration is harassing/erasing any group or person associated with the term DEI, even going so far as trying to strong-arm foreign governments who employ those policies. They have already attacked corporations and law firms and have terminated government employees who are not currently working in those programs but had had been assigned to them in the past. It is probably only a matter of time before they get down to tiny groups like the PTG; our DEI policy is easily found with a simple google search. If this doesn't seem extreme to you, it does to me.

The subtext of the humorous posts made by me and others in David's thread is that we should be preparing for this.

Perhaps this is something better taken up in the PTG-L forum.

On a more technical note, Beginning April 9, we should be prepared for our costs for foreign made parts and materials to go up by 20-50% or more. This will affect even US manufacturers if they are using foreign felt for example. If you have estimates out, you should amend them or at least inform your clients. It's bound to affect the costs of things like car maintenance as well.

Apparently we are entering a post constitutional era, the new framers are the authors of Project 2025 and their agenda is to enforce the traditional mores of hearth and family. This is not my "opinion", this is what is happening on the ground and sanctioned by the current administration and majority party in both houses of Congress. 

As a group we darn well should be thinking about this strategically.

Jeannie

Thanks for commenting.  Your observations are not unique.  Mr. Cantrell did make a statement in response to this on another thread to which I will respond to that as it triggered many thoughts on the subject.  Sometimes events occur that cause us to rethink our role and the contributions to the organizations to which we are members.  I believe this is one of those times and if there if results in some self examination I think we are better for it.  I don't think this is off topic in terms of our mission of "professional development".

Thanks Steve, I agree and also share your concern about the tariffs.  In fact, I just started another thread about that very issue which should be of concern to all of us. EU parts from Renner, Abel, Heller; Canadian parts from Bolduc and various bass string makers not to mention Sitka and other types of spruce; numerous Japanese products that I use, damper felt, back actions, tools, shanks, wippens, etc, not to mention the costs of pianos themselves of foreign manufacture.  They will all see fairly dramatic price increases at a time when we are concerned about inflation.  Make no mistake, so are our customers.  The cost of parts can be the difference in a job going forward or not. Perhaps in an affluent are such as I live, it's less of an issue.  But many of the folks I work for are not of high means; teachers, musicians, arts organizations, universities, churches, students.  For them it can be the difference between a job going forward or not unless, of course, we compensate somehow, i.e. we take the hit or deflate our labor costs at the same time that other costs are rising. For the sake of what???

As far as the PTG goes, what are they doing about it?  Are they representing our interests with any lobbying efforts or are they simply hiding in fear of retribution?  What efforts have been made and what efforts are anticipated?  So far, I see more efforts being put into pulling down posts that ruffle the feathers of a few pathetic individuals who can't handle a bit of irony.

As for the DEI issue, I think it's important. I've been in this industry now for 50 years. When I joined it was a very white male dominated industry.  Still seems to be, though now more populated by an Asian contingent (full disclosure, my mother is a Chinese immigrant) and a growing number of women.  That is a welcome evolution.  But I can't help but notice that women in the guild have formed their own discussion groups presumably to avoid some of the toxic male dominance.  But do we reach out to underserved communities to attract people to the trade?  There's a lot of opportunity there in various minority communities serving dual functions: introducing non-college educated individuals to a trade that offers real possibilities for livelihood plus serving the communities that, bluntly, many of my white colleagues are afraid to go into.  If we are doing that, I don't see it manifesting in the convention populations or PTG roster. So what is our commitment there and what will it be now that such programs are under fire?  Will we pull language from our mission statement in fear of retribution?  Do we get any federal grant funding that afraid of losing?  Will we simply try to stay under the radar and out of harm's way?  That would be a sorry capitulation.  

I don't think this discussion should take place behind the closed doors of PTG-L.  It should be public.  I send many people to these forums, laypeople, musicians, hobbyists, teachers, in order to keep themselves better informed about how the trade works and the issues they might not quite understand with their own instruments.  That's so I can better serve their needs and elevate the level of the conversation we have about their pianos. If we can't be public about our mission values and goals, then we have no business being here IMO. We can all disagree about policy, whether trade or national, but until we have common values there can be no further discussion.  I want the PTG to be very up front about their values and to stand behind them--walk the walk, not just engage in virtue signaling.  Right now I think that's more important than ever as the current admin is pushing hard against that.  Maybe that means you have to take a punch once in a while.   

David L. makes a salient point. The current administration is harassing/erasing any group or person associated with the term DEI, even going so far as trying to strong-arm foreign governments who employ those policies. They have already attacked corporations and law firms and have terminated government employees who are not currently working in those programs but had had been assigned to them in the past. It is probably only a matter of time before they get down to tiny groups like the PTG; our DEI policy is easily found with a simple google search. If this doesn't seem extreme to you, it does to me.

The subtext of the humorous posts made by me and others in David's thread is that we should be preparing for this.

Perhaps this is something better taken up in the PTG-L forum.

On a more technical note, Beginning April 9, we should be prepared for our costs for foreign made parts and materials to go up by 20-50% or more. This will affect even US manufacturers if they are using foreign felt for example. If you have estimates out, you should amend them or at least inform your clients. It's bound to affect the costs of things like car maintenance as well.

Apparently we are entering a post constitutional era, the new framers are the authors of Project 2025 and their agenda is to enforce the traditional mores of hearth and family. This is not my "opinion", this is what is happening on the ground and sanctioned by the current administration and majority party in both houses of Congress. 

As a group we darn well should be thinking about this strategically.

Jeannie

Thanks for commenting.  Your observations are not unique.  Mr. Cantrell did make a statement in response to this on another thread to which I will respond to that as it triggered many thoughts on the subject.  Sometimes events occur that cause us to rethink our role and the contributions to the organizations to which we are members.  I believe this is one of those times and if there if results in some self examination I think we are better for it.  I don't think this is off topic in terms of our mission of "professional development".

Thanks Steve, I agree and also share your concern about the tariffs.  In fact, I just started another thread about that very issue which should be of concern to all of us. EU parts from Renner, Abel, Heller; Canadian parts from Bolduc and various bass string makers not to mention Sitka and other types of spruce; numerous Japanese products that I use, damper felt, back actions, tools, shanks, wippens, etc, not to mention the costs of pianos themselves of foreign manufacture.  They will all see fairly dramatic price increases at a time when we are concerned about inflation.  Make no mistake, so are our customers.  The cost of parts can be the difference in a job going forward or not. Perhaps in an affluent are such as I live, it's less of an issue.  But many of the folks I work for are not of high means; teachers, musicians, arts organizations, universities, churches, students.  For them it can be the difference between a job going forward or not unless, of course, we compensate somehow, i.e. we take the hit or deflate our labor costs at the same time that other costs are rising. For the sake of what???

As far as the PTG goes, what are they doing about it?  Are they representing our interests with any lobbying efforts or are they simply hiding in fear of retribution?  What efforts have been made and what efforts are anticipated?  So far, I see more efforts being put into pulling down posts that ruffle the feathers of a few pathetic individuals who can't handle a bit of irony.

As for the DEI issue, I think it's important. I've been in this industry now for 50 years. When I joined it was a very white male dominated industry.  Still seems to be, though now more populated by an Asian contingent (full disclosure, my mother is a Chinese immigrant) and a growing number of women.  That is a welcome evolution.  But I can't help but notice that women in the guild have formed their own discussion groups presumably to avoid some of the toxic male dominance.  But do we reach out to underserved communities to attract people to the trade?  There's a lot of opportunity there in various minority communities serving dual functions: introducing non-college educated individuals to a trade that offers real possibilities for livelihood plus serving the communities that, bluntly, many of my white colleagues are afraid to go into.  If we are doing that, I don't see it manifesting in the convention populations or PTG roster. So what is our commitment there and what will it be now that such programs are under fire?  Will we pull language from our mission statement in fear of retribution?  Do we get any federal grant funding that afraid of losing?  Will we simply try to stay under the radar and out of harm's way?  That would be a sorry capitulation.  

I don't think this discussion should take place behind the closed doors of PTG-L.  It should be public.  I send many people to these forums, laypeople, musicians, hobbyists, teachers, in order to keep themselves better informed about how the trade works and the issues they might not quite understand with their own instruments.  That's so I can better serve their needs and elevate the level of the conversation we have about their pianos. If we can't be public about our mission values and goals, then we have no business being here IMO. We can all disagree about policy, whether trade or national, but until we have common values there can be no further discussion.  I want the PTG to be very up front about their values and to stand behind them--walk the walk, not just engage in virtue signaling.  Right now I think that's more important than ever as the current admin is pushing hard against that.  Maybe that means you have to take a punch once in a while.   

David L. makes a salient point. The current administration is harassing/erasing any group or person associated with the term DEI, even going so far as trying to strong-arm foreign governments who employ those policies. They have already attacked corporations and law firms and have terminated government employees who are not currently working in those programs but had had been assigned to them in the past. It is probably only a matter of time before they get down to tiny groups like the PTG; our DEI policy is easily found with a simple google search. If this doesn't seem extreme to you, it does to me.

The subtext of the humorous posts made by me and others in David's thread is that we should be preparing for this.

Perhaps this is something better taken up in the PTG-L forum.

On a more technical note, Beginning April 9, we should be prepared for our costs for foreign made parts and materials to go up by 20-50% or more. This will affect even US manufacturers if they are using foreign felt for example. If you have estimates out, you should amend them or at least inform your clients. It's bound to affect the costs of things like car maintenance as well.

Apparently we are entering a post constitutional era, the new framers are the authors of Project 2025 and their agenda is to enforce the traditional mores of hearth and family. This is not my "opinion", this is what is happening on the ground and sanctioned by the current administration and majority party in both houses of Congress. 

As a group we darn well should be thinking about this strategically.

I did repost it in reply #12

I did repost it in reply #12

David, Please do not leave these forums. You have been, and hopefully will be, very helpful to many Techs.

I did repost it in reply #12

I'm very much against censorship, but the post in question was politics disguised as a piano question and then claimed to be humor. To me its the lying that shows no class, but it should have stayed posted IMO.

Also, last i looked Sitka is in Alaska. Also, we wouldn't need to import if we used our own lumber such as the Adirondacks and other places. Instead of shutting those resource off on false environmental claims. Just some common sense forestry would save the species and provide the needed lumber.

-chris

David, Please do not leave these forums. You have been, and hopefully will be, very helpful to many Techs.

I did repost it in reply #12

Well I tend not to take seriously accusations of lying from people who think the Earth is only 5000 years old.  

You are right Sitka is in Alaska! You win the geography prize but Sitka Spruce actually grows all over the Pacific Northwest including British Columbia and some comes in from there. Bolduc supplies mostly Canadian white spruce panels and rib stock, but they do also make available Sitka Spruce panels.  As to where they get their spruce from, I couldn't tell you, you'd have to ask them.  But it would surprise me if at this point they're getting any of it from the US though I would imagine they have a current stock. Nevertheless, I would expect to see price increases on anything wood from Canada, and that includes Bolduc, in this current tariff climate.

As far as substituting Adirondack spruce, have you tried to buy a small piece of Adirondack spruce maybe for a Guitar top and seen what the prices of that are? It's virtually, if not literally, endangered, quite limited. Steinway doesn't use it and pretty much no other Piano builders do that I'm aware of. Yes, we could manage to grow more I suppose.  I don't know about you, but I don't think I'll be here in 50 years to harvest that crop.  

So I appreciate you weighing in, again, trying your hardest to be relevant.  But, once again, I'm not surprised to find you don't know what the hell you're talking about. 

Nothing personal, just calling balls and strikes. Bless your little heart. 

I'm very much against censorship, but the post in question was politics disguised as a piano question and then claimed to be humor. To me its the lying that shows no class, but it should have stayed posted IMO.

Also, last i looked Sitka is in Alaska. Also, we wouldn't need to import if we used our own lumber such as the Adirondacks and other places. Instead of shutting those resource off on false environmental claims. Just some common sense forestry would save the species and provide the needed lumber.

-chris

David, Please do not leave these forums. You have been, and hopefully will be, very helpful to many Techs.

I did repost it in reply #12

A client postponed their Saturday appointment this week because they are going to a protest at the state capitol; first protest they've attended in their lives. 

The natives are getting restless. As well we should. 

Well I tend not to take seriously accusations of lying from people who think the Earth is only 5000 years old.  

You are right Sitka is in Alaska! You win the geography prize but Sitka Spruce actually grows all over the Pacific Northwest including British Columbia and some comes in from there. Bolduc supplies mostly Canadian white spruce panels and rib stock, but they do also make available Sitka Spruce panels.  As to where they get their spruce from, I couldn't tell you, you'd have to ask them.  But it would surprise me if at this point they're getting any of it from the US though I would imagine they have a current stock. Nevertheless, I would expect to see price increases on anything wood from Canada, and that includes Bolduc, in this current tariff climate.

As far as substituting Adirondack spruce, have you tried to buy a small piece of Adirondack spruce maybe for a Guitar top and seen what the prices of that are? It's virtually, if not literally, endangered, quite limited. Steinway doesn't use it and pretty much no other Piano builders do that I'm aware of. Yes, we could manage to grow more I suppose.  I don't know about you, but I don't think I'll be here in 50 years to harvest that crop.  

So I appreciate you weighing in, again, trying your hardest to be relevant.  But, once again, I'm not surprised to find you don't know what the hell you're talking about. 

Nothing personal, just calling balls and strikes. Bless your little heart. 

I'm very much against censorship, but the post in question was politics disguised as a piano question and then claimed to be humor. To me its the lying that shows no class, but it should have stayed posted IMO.

Also, last i looked Sitka is in Alaska. Also, we wouldn't need to import if we used our own lumber such as the Adirondacks and other places. Instead of shutting those resource off on false environmental claims. Just some common sense forestry would save the species and provide the needed lumber.

-chris

David, Please do not leave these forums. You have been, and hopefully will be, very helpful to many Techs.

I did repost it in reply #12

Well I tend not to take seriously accusations of lying from people who think the Earth is only 5000 years old.  

You are right Sitka is in Alaska! You win the geography prize but Sitka Spruce actually grows all over the Pacific Northwest including British Columbia and some comes in from there. Bolduc supplies mostly Canadian white spruce panels and rib stock, but they do also make available Sitka Spruce panels.  As to where they get their spruce from, I couldn't tell you, you'd have to ask them.  But it would surprise me if at this point they're getting any of it from the US though I would imagine they have a current stock. Nevertheless, I would expect to see price increases on anything wood from Canada, and that includes Bolduc, in this current tariff climate.

As far as substituting Adirondack spruce, have you tried to buy a small piece of Adirondack spruce maybe for a Guitar top and seen what the prices of that are? It's virtually, if not literally, endangered, quite limited. Steinway doesn't use it and pretty much no other Piano builders do that I'm aware of. Yes, we could manage to grow more I suppose.  I don't know about you, but I don't think I'll be here in 50 years to harvest that crop.  

So I appreciate you weighing in, again, trying your hardest to be relevant.  But, once again, I'm not surprised to find you don't know what the hell you're talking about. 

Nothing personal, just calling balls and strikes. Bless your little heart. 

I'm very much against censorship, but the post in question was politics disguised as a piano question and then claimed to be humor. To me its the lying that shows no class, but it should have stayed posted IMO.

Also, last i looked Sitka is in Alaska. Also, we wouldn't need to import if we used our own lumber such as the Adirondacks and other places. Instead of shutting those resource off on false environmental claims. Just some common sense forestry would save the species and provide the needed lumber.

-chris

David, Please do not leave these forums. You have been, and hopefully will be, very helpful to many Techs.

I did repost it in reply #12

So two lies gets pointed out and the response is personal attacks. So classy.

-chris

Well I tend not to take seriously accusations of lying from people who think the Earth is only 5000 years old.  

You are right Sitka is in Alaska! You win the geography prize but Sitka Spruce actually grows all over the Pacific Northwest including British Columbia and some comes in from there. Bolduc supplies mostly Canadian white spruce panels and rib stock, but they do also make available Sitka Spruce panels.  As to where they get their spruce from, I couldn't tell you, you'd have to ask them.  But it would surprise me if at this point they're getting any of it from the US though I would imagine they have a current stock. Nevertheless, I would expect to see price increases on anything wood from Canada, and that includes Bolduc, in this current tariff climate.

As far as substituting Adirondack spruce, have you tried to buy a small piece of Adirondack spruce maybe for a Guitar top and seen what the prices of that are? It's virtually, if not literally, endangered, quite limited. Steinway doesn't use it and pretty much no other Piano builders do that I'm aware of. Yes, we could manage to grow more I suppose.  I don't know about you, but I don't think I'll be here in 50 years to harvest that crop.  

So I appreciate you weighing in, again, trying your hardest to be relevant.  But, once again, I'm not surprised to find you don't know what the hell you're talking about. 

Nothing personal, just calling balls and strikes. Bless your little heart. 

I'm very much against censorship, but the post in question was politics disguised as a piano question and then claimed to be humor. To me its the lying that shows no class, but it should have stayed posted IMO.

Also, last i looked Sitka is in Alaska. Also, we wouldn't need to import if we used our own lumber such as the Adirondacks and other places. Instead of shutting those resource off on false environmental claims. Just some common sense forestry would save the species and provide the needed lumber.

-chris

David, Please do not leave these forums. You have been, and hopefully will be, very helpful to many Techs.

I did repost it in reply #12

Oh did I hurt your feelings Chris?  Then don't call me a liar.  

General comment (not for Chris, beyond his capacity):

It doesn't go unnoticed re the board monitoring and censoring my comments pointing out the irony and humor of the DEI programs and then developing those ideas in terms of how it might affect our industry, were completely impersonal.  But the defamatory language coming from Chris and the other unknown to me entity who made the comment "silence dogooder", whatever that means--a little work on wordsmithing is in order there--go unchecked.  I'd say our censorship practices are a bit out of balance.  

The PTG, if it sticks to its public message of DEI in broadening access to the trade (right now it can barely manage being non bullying to the many women members), will be under attack from this administration.  I would like to see the PTG make a statement of commitment to its members that it will stand by its mission statement.  It wouldn't be the first organization to bend the knee.

As far as Chris and his blowhard pals, they can bugger off as far as I'm concerned.  Feel free to censor that line if you wish.    

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 16:16
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: bumped thread

So two lies gets pointed out and the response is personal attacks. So classy.

-chris

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations

Inventor of Inertia Touch Wave (ITW)
Advanced Resonant Compression Engineered Soundboards (ARCHES)

865-986-7720 (text only please)

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 15:11
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

Well I tend not to take seriously accusations of lying from people who think the Earth is only 5000 years old.  

You are right Sitka is in Alaska! You win the geography prize but Sitka Spruce actually grows all over the Pacific Northwest including British Columbia and some comes in from there. Bolduc supplies mostly Canadian white spruce panels and rib stock, but they do also make available Sitka Spruce panels.  As to where they get their spruce from, I couldn't tell you, you'd have to ask them.  But it would surprise me if at this point they're getting any of it from the US though I would imagine they have a current stock. Nevertheless, I would expect to see price increases on anything wood from Canada, and that includes Bolduc, in this current tariff climate.

As far as substituting Adirondack spruce, have you tried to buy a small piece of Adirondack spruce maybe for a Guitar top and seen what the prices of that are? It's virtually, if not literally, endangered, quite limited. Steinway doesn't use it and pretty much no other Piano builders do that I'm aware of. Yes, we could manage to grow more I suppose.  I don't know about you, but I don't think I'll be here in 50 years to harvest that crop.  

So I appreciate you weighing in, again, trying your hardest to be relevant.  But, once again, I'm not surprised to find you don't know what the hell you're talking about. 

Nothing personal, just calling balls and strikes. Bless your little heart. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 11:34
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: bumped thread

I'm very much against censorship, but the post in question was politics disguised as a piano question and then claimed to be humor. To me its the lying that shows no class, but it should have stayed posted IMO.

Also, last i looked Sitka is in Alaska. Also, we wouldn't need to import if we used our own lumber such as the Adirondacks and other places. Instead of shutting those resource off on false environmental claims. Just some common sense forestry would save the species and provide the needed lumber.

-chris

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations

Inventor of Inertia Touch Wave (ITW)
Advanced Resonant Compression Engineered Soundboards (ARCHES)

865-986-7720 (text only please)

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 09:56
From: Tremaine Parsons
Subject: bumped thread

David, Please do not leave these forums. You have been, and hopefully will be, very helpful to many Techs.

------------------------------
Tremaine Parsons RPT
Georgetown CA
(530) 333-9299

Original Message:
Sent: 04-03-2025 19:32
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

I did repost it in reply #12

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

https://my.ptg.org/help/ocrules

In particular, Rules 1, 2, and 5, seem applicable:

1) Discuss pianos and the industry

Remember what the PTG is for. Stay on topic.

2) Be Professional

No personal attacks, sexism, racism, or harassment. No libel, defamation, or deliberate misinformation. No religion or politics.

5) Post to the correct Community

Posts made in the incorrect Community may be moved or removed.

For those who have been around a while, you'll remember that every few years there's been a big blow up here when someone ignores the "no politics" rule. Every time that happens, we end up losing members (usually people who don't participate in these discussions but read them) because certain people want to force their politics on others. There's a reason why the rules are in place.

What started out with a very clearly political post has devolved into personal attacks and name calling - all while pushing for an inclusive environment while telling someone of the opposite opinion to "bugger off". Frankly, that's the very definition of unprofessional behavior.

I am 100% for free speech, but by logging in, you (not just David, everyone in general) agree to follow the rules of these forums. If you want to post something political or engage in unprofessional behavior, go for it - somewhere else. You have the freedom to say whatever you want. But I ask that while you're here, have enough respect for your fellow members to follow the same rules you agreed to when you logged on.

Please everyone, let's keep PTG focused on pianos. 

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
Piano Technician / Artisan
(256) 947-9999
www.professional-piano-services.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 17:27
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

Oh did I hurt your feelings Chris?  Then don't call me a liar.  

General comment (not for Chris, beyond his capacity):

It doesn't go unnoticed re the board monitoring and censoring my comments pointing out the irony and humor of the DEI programs and then developing those ideas in terms of how it might affect our industry, were completely impersonal.  But the defamatory language coming from Chris and the other unknown to me entity who made the comment "silence dogooder", whatever that means--a little work on wordsmithing is in order there--go unchecked.  I'd say our censorship practices are a bit out of balance.  

The PTG, if it sticks to its public message of DEI in broadening access to the trade (right now it can barely manage being non bullying to the many women members), will be under attack from this administration.  I would like to see the PTG make a statement of commitment to its members that it will stand by its mission statement.  It wouldn't be the first organization to bend the knee.

As far as Chris and his blowhard pals, they can bugger off as far as I'm concerned.  Feel free to censor that line if you wish.    

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 16:16
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: bumped thread

So two lies gets pointed out and the response is personal attacks. So classy.

-chris

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations

Inventor of Inertia Touch Wave (ITW)
Advanced Resonant Compression Engineered Soundboards (ARCHES)

865-986-7720 (text only please)

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 15:11
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

Well I tend not to take seriously accusations of lying from people who think the Earth is only 5000 years old.  

You are right Sitka is in Alaska! You win the geography prize but Sitka Spruce actually grows all over the Pacific Northwest including British Columbia and some comes in from there. Bolduc supplies mostly Canadian white spruce panels and rib stock, but they do also make available Sitka Spruce panels.  As to where they get their spruce from, I couldn't tell you, you'd have to ask them.  But it would surprise me if at this point they're getting any of it from the US though I would imagine they have a current stock. Nevertheless, I would expect to see price increases on anything wood from Canada, and that includes Bolduc, in this current tariff climate.

As far as substituting Adirondack spruce, have you tried to buy a small piece of Adirondack spruce maybe for a Guitar top and seen what the prices of that are? It's virtually, if not literally, endangered, quite limited. Steinway doesn't use it and pretty much no other Piano builders do that I'm aware of. Yes, we could manage to grow more I suppose.  I don't know about you, but I don't think I'll be here in 50 years to harvest that crop.  

So I appreciate you weighing in, again, trying your hardest to be relevant.  But, once again, I'm not surprised to find you don't know what the hell you're talking about. 

Nothing personal, just calling balls and strikes. Bless your little heart. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 11:34
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: bumped thread

I'm very much against censorship, but the post in question was politics disguised as a piano question and then claimed to be humor. To me its the lying that shows no class, but it should have stayed posted IMO.

Also, last i looked Sitka is in Alaska. Also, we wouldn't need to import if we used our own lumber such as the Adirondacks and other places. Instead of shutting those resource off on false environmental claims. Just some common sense forestry would save the species and provide the needed lumber.

-chris

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations

Inventor of Inertia Touch Wave (ITW)
Advanced Resonant Compression Engineered Soundboards (ARCHES)

865-986-7720 (text only please)

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 09:56
From: Tremaine Parsons
Subject: bumped thread

David, Please do not leave these forums. You have been, and hopefully will be, very helpful to many Techs.

------------------------------
Tremaine Parsons RPT
Georgetown CA
(530) 333-9299

Original Message:
Sent: 04-03-2025 19:32
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

I did repost it in reply #12

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Oh did I hurt your feelings Chris?  Then don't call me a liar.  

General comment (not for Chris, beyond his capacity):

It doesn't go unnoticed re the board monitoring and censoring my comments pointing out the irony and humor of the DEI programs and then developing those ideas in terms of how it might affect our industry, were completely impersonal.  But the defamatory language coming from Chris and the other unknown to me entity who made the comment "silence dogooder", whatever that means--a little work on wordsmithing is in order there--go unchecked.  I'd say our censorship practices are a bit out of balance.  

The PTG, if it sticks to its public message of DEI in broadening access to the trade (right now it can barely manage being non bullying to the many women members), will be under attack from this administration.  I would like to see the PTG make a statement of commitment to its members that it will stand by its mission statement.  It wouldn't be the first organization to bend the knee.

As far as Chris and his blowhard pals, they can bugger off as far as I'm concerned.  Feel free to censor that line if you wish.    

So two lies gets pointed out and the response is personal attacks. So classy.

-chris

Well I tend not to take seriously accusations of lying from people who think the Earth is only 5000 years old.  

You are right Sitka is in Alaska! You win the geography prize but Sitka Spruce actually grows all over the Pacific Northwest including British Columbia and some comes in from there. Bolduc supplies mostly Canadian white spruce panels and rib stock, but they do also make available Sitka Spruce panels.  As to where they get their spruce from, I couldn't tell you, you'd have to ask them.  But it would surprise me if at this point they're getting any of it from the US though I would imagine they have a current stock. Nevertheless, I would expect to see price increases on anything wood from Canada, and that includes Bolduc, in this current tariff climate.

As far as substituting Adirondack spruce, have you tried to buy a small piece of Adirondack spruce maybe for a Guitar top and seen what the prices of that are? It's virtually, if not literally, endangered, quite limited. Steinway doesn't use it and pretty much no other Piano builders do that I'm aware of. Yes, we could manage to grow more I suppose.  I don't know about you, but I don't think I'll be here in 50 years to harvest that crop.  

So I appreciate you weighing in, again, trying your hardest to be relevant.  But, once again, I'm not surprised to find you don't know what the hell you're talking about. 

Nothing personal, just calling balls and strikes. Bless your little heart. 

I'm very much against censorship, but the post in question was politics disguised as a piano question and then claimed to be humor. To me its the lying that shows no class, but it should have stayed posted IMO.

Also, last i looked Sitka is in Alaska. Also, we wouldn't need to import if we used our own lumber such as the Adirondacks and other places. Instead of shutting those resource off on false environmental claims. Just some common sense forestry would save the species and provide the needed lumber.

-chris

David, Please do not leave these forums. You have been, and hopefully will be, very helpful to many Techs.

I did repost it in reply #12

So just to be clear. The two lies were:

#1 Posting a political post under the disguise of calling it a piano post.

#2 Later saying it was humor.

In both cases putting a false label on a political post.

As for all the rest, you're the only one practicing libel today. And i'm beginning to feel like i need to hold your responsible for your actions if you persist. So i kindly ask you to stop and be civilized.

-chris

Oh did I hurt your feelings Chris?  Then don't call me a liar.  

General comment (not for Chris, beyond his capacity):

It doesn't go unnoticed re the board monitoring and censoring my comments pointing out the irony and humor of the DEI programs and then developing those ideas in terms of how it might affect our industry, were completely impersonal.  But the defamatory language coming from Chris and the other unknown to me entity who made the comment "silence dogooder", whatever that means--a little work on wordsmithing is in order there--go unchecked.  I'd say our censorship practices are a bit out of balance.  

The PTG, if it sticks to its public message of DEI in broadening access to the trade (right now it can barely manage being non bullying to the many women members), will be under attack from this administration.  I would like to see the PTG make a statement of commitment to its members that it will stand by its mission statement.  It wouldn't be the first organization to bend the knee.

As far as Chris and his blowhard pals, they can bugger off as far as I'm concerned.  Feel free to censor that line if you wish.    

So two lies gets pointed out and the response is personal attacks. So classy.

-chris

Well I tend not to take seriously accusations of lying from people who think the Earth is only 5000 years old.  

You are right Sitka is in Alaska! You win the geography prize but Sitka Spruce actually grows all over the Pacific Northwest including British Columbia and some comes in from there. Bolduc supplies mostly Canadian white spruce panels and rib stock, but they do also make available Sitka Spruce panels.  As to where they get their spruce from, I couldn't tell you, you'd have to ask them.  But it would surprise me if at this point they're getting any of it from the US though I would imagine they have a current stock. Nevertheless, I would expect to see price increases on anything wood from Canada, and that includes Bolduc, in this current tariff climate.

As far as substituting Adirondack spruce, have you tried to buy a small piece of Adirondack spruce maybe for a Guitar top and seen what the prices of that are? It's virtually, if not literally, endangered, quite limited. Steinway doesn't use it and pretty much no other Piano builders do that I'm aware of. Yes, we could manage to grow more I suppose.  I don't know about you, but I don't think I'll be here in 50 years to harvest that crop.  

So I appreciate you weighing in, again, trying your hardest to be relevant.  But, once again, I'm not surprised to find you don't know what the hell you're talking about. 

Nothing personal, just calling balls and strikes. Bless your little heart. 

I'm very much against censorship, but the post in question was politics disguised as a piano question and then claimed to be humor. To me its the lying that shows no class, but it should have stayed posted IMO.

Also, last i looked Sitka is in Alaska. Also, we wouldn't need to import if we used our own lumber such as the Adirondacks and other places. Instead of shutting those resource off on false environmental claims. Just some common sense forestry would save the species and provide the needed lumber.

-chris

David, Please do not leave these forums. You have been, and hopefully will be, very helpful to many Techs.

I did repost it in reply #12

Oh did I hurt your feelings Chris?  Then don't call me a liar.  

General comment (not for Chris, beyond his capacity):

It doesn't go unnoticed re the board monitoring and censoring my comments pointing out the irony and humor of the DEI programs and then developing those ideas in terms of how it might affect our industry, were completely impersonal.  But the defamatory language coming from Chris and the other unknown to me entity who made the comment "silence dogooder", whatever that means--a little work on wordsmithing is in order there--go unchecked.  I'd say our censorship practices are a bit out of balance.  

The PTG, if it sticks to its public message of DEI in broadening access to the trade (right now it can barely manage being non bullying to the many women members), will be under attack from this administration.  I would like to see the PTG make a statement of commitment to its members that it will stand by its mission statement.  It wouldn't be the first organization to bend the knee.

As far as Chris and his blowhard pals, they can bugger off as far as I'm concerned.  Feel free to censor that line if you wish.    

So two lies gets pointed out and the response is personal attacks. So classy.

-chris

Well I tend not to take seriously accusations of lying from people who think the Earth is only 5000 years old.  

You are right Sitka is in Alaska! You win the geography prize but Sitka Spruce actually grows all over the Pacific Northwest including British Columbia and some comes in from there. Bolduc supplies mostly Canadian white spruce panels and rib stock, but they do also make available Sitka Spruce panels.  As to where they get their spruce from, I couldn't tell you, you'd have to ask them.  But it would surprise me if at this point they're getting any of it from the US though I would imagine they have a current stock. Nevertheless, I would expect to see price increases on anything wood from Canada, and that includes Bolduc, in this current tariff climate.

As far as substituting Adirondack spruce, have you tried to buy a small piece of Adirondack spruce maybe for a Guitar top and seen what the prices of that are? It's virtually, if not literally, endangered, quite limited. Steinway doesn't use it and pretty much no other Piano builders do that I'm aware of. Yes, we could manage to grow more I suppose.  I don't know about you, but I don't think I'll be here in 50 years to harvest that crop.  

So I appreciate you weighing in, again, trying your hardest to be relevant.  But, once again, I'm not surprised to find you don't know what the hell you're talking about. 

Nothing personal, just calling balls and strikes. Bless your little heart. 

I'm very much against censorship, but the post in question was politics disguised as a piano question and then claimed to be humor. To me its the lying that shows no class, but it should have stayed posted IMO.

Also, last i looked Sitka is in Alaska. Also, we wouldn't need to import if we used our own lumber such as the Adirondacks and other places. Instead of shutting those resource off on false environmental claims. Just some common sense forestry would save the species and provide the needed lumber.

-chris

David, Please do not leave these forums. You have been, and hopefully will be, very helpful to many Techs.

I did repost it in reply #12

David,

I would be happy to have a private discussion about why that post was removed, if you'd like.  We really do try to be reasonable and accessible to the membership.

Regarding imbalanced "censorship", as you say - we only review comments or posts that have been flagged by a user. So feel free to flag anything you think should be checked, define which rule is being violated, and we'll review.  I'd say the same to everyone else here. Additionally, the Board makes no routine moderation decisions or recommendations, as you have said.  That's purely on my team, until we escalate a serious situation up to them and make a formal recommendation for a suspension/ban, which happens rarely, thankfully. 

We are a team of volunteers trying to foster a healthy environment to talk about pianos here, and have an obligation to enforce our online community rules in an increasingly tense social and political climate.  I would encourage you and everyone in this thread to review those rules and try to paint within the lines. It's not censorship, it's moderation, as every user of these forums agree to when they join.

I would encourage conversations that fall outside of those rules to occur off-platform or privately, as they can certainly be important discussions to have.  If one feels these rules are poorly written or need changing, an RFA may be submitted to the Board by the late April deadline. Council at the Annual Convention in July is an excellent place to raise concerns directly to the Board, as well.

Oh did I hurt your feelings Chris?  Then don't call me a liar.  

General comment (not for Chris, beyond his capacity):

It doesn't go unnoticed re the board monitoring and censoring my comments pointing out the irony and humor of the DEI programs and then developing those ideas in terms of how it might affect our industry, were completely impersonal.  But the defamatory language coming from Chris and the other unknown to me entity who made the comment "silence dogooder", whatever that means--a little work on wordsmithing is in order there--go unchecked.  I'd say our censorship practices are a bit out of balance.  

The PTG, if it sticks to its public message of DEI in broadening access to the trade (right now it can barely manage being non bullying to the many women members), will be under attack from this administration.  I would like to see the PTG make a statement of commitment to its members that it will stand by its mission statement.  It wouldn't be the first organization to bend the knee.

As far as Chris and his blowhard pals, they can bugger off as far as I'm concerned.  Feel free to censor that line if you wish.    

So two lies gets pointed out and the response is personal attacks. So classy.

-chris

Well I tend not to take seriously accusations of lying from people who think the Earth is only 5000 years old.  

You are right Sitka is in Alaska! You win the geography prize but Sitka Spruce actually grows all over the Pacific Northwest including British Columbia and some comes in from there. Bolduc supplies mostly Canadian white spruce panels and rib stock, but they do also make available Sitka Spruce panels.  As to where they get their spruce from, I couldn't tell you, you'd have to ask them.  But it would surprise me if at this point they're getting any of it from the US though I would imagine they have a current stock. Nevertheless, I would expect to see price increases on anything wood from Canada, and that includes Bolduc, in this current tariff climate.

As far as substituting Adirondack spruce, have you tried to buy a small piece of Adirondack spruce maybe for a Guitar top and seen what the prices of that are? It's virtually, if not literally, endangered, quite limited. Steinway doesn't use it and pretty much no other Piano builders do that I'm aware of. Yes, we could manage to grow more I suppose.  I don't know about you, but I don't think I'll be here in 50 years to harvest that crop.  

So I appreciate you weighing in, again, trying your hardest to be relevant.  But, once again, I'm not surprised to find you don't know what the hell you're talking about. 

Nothing personal, just calling balls and strikes. Bless your little heart. 

I'm very much against censorship, but the post in question was politics disguised as a piano question and then claimed to be humor. To me its the lying that shows no class, but it should have stayed posted IMO.

Also, last i looked Sitka is in Alaska. Also, we wouldn't need to import if we used our own lumber such as the Adirondacks and other places. Instead of shutting those resource off on false environmental claims. Just some common sense forestry would save the species and provide the needed lumber.

-chris

David, Please do not leave these forums. You have been, and hopefully will be, very helpful to many Techs.

I did repost it in reply #12

Micah

Yes, I think the rules are poorly written if one thin skinned, sanctimonious and humorless individual can anonymously dictate what gets taken down. I have no intention of flagging any remarks because I think there's no crime in being an idiot. In fact, I think idiocy should remain on full display for all to see. I consider that consistent with my commitment to DEI. Even idiots are welcome, but they don't get to operate with complete immunity from criticism.

I have reviewed the rules and find nothing I have said, that wasn't provoked, outside those boundaries. We're mostly adults here, with some notable exceptions, and should be able to handle some controversy and disagreement. 

But in the spirit of moving on I will let you and others have the last word as I don't have much more to contribute to this topic except to say I stand by everything I have written whether it's about any individual contributor to this list or the role I think the PTG should assume in this unprecedented political climate for the benefit and in defense of the industry and the dues paying members of this organization. When the President of the PTG or the board makes a comment on that, I may have something more to say. Until then, I'll consider their silence as their final word as disappointing and complicit as I might find that to be. 

David,

I would be happy to have a private discussion about why that post was removed, if you'd like.  We really do try to be reasonable and accessible to the membership.

Regarding imbalanced "censorship", as you say - we only review comments or posts that have been flagged by a user. So feel free to flag anything you think should be checked, define which rule is being violated, and we'll review.  I'd say the same to everyone else here. Additionally, the Board makes no routine moderation decisions or recommendations, as you have said.  That's purely on my team, until we escalate a serious situation up to them and make a formal recommendation for a suspension/ban, which happens rarely, thankfully. 

We are a team of volunteers trying to foster a healthy environment to talk about pianos here, and have an obligation to enforce our online community rules in an increasingly tense social and political climate.  I would encourage you and everyone in this thread to review those rules and try to paint within the lines. It's not censorship, it's moderation, as every user of these forums agree to when they join.

I would encourage conversations that fall outside of those rules to occur off-platform or privately, as they can certainly be important discussions to have.  If one feels these rules are poorly written or need changing, an RFA may be submitted to the Board by the late April deadline. Council at the Annual Convention in July is an excellent place to raise concerns directly to the Board, as well.

Oh did I hurt your feelings Chris?  Then don't call me a liar.  

General comment (not for Chris, beyond his capacity):

It doesn't go unnoticed re the board monitoring and censoring my comments pointing out the irony and humor of the DEI programs and then developing those ideas in terms of how it might affect our industry, were completely impersonal.  But the defamatory language coming from Chris and the other unknown to me entity who made the comment "silence dogooder", whatever that means--a little work on wordsmithing is in order there--go unchecked.  I'd say our censorship practices are a bit out of balance.  

The PTG, if it sticks to its public message of DEI in broadening access to the trade (right now it can barely manage being non bullying to the many women members), will be under attack from this administration.  I would like to see the PTG make a statement of commitment to its members that it will stand by its mission statement.  It wouldn't be the first organization to bend the knee.

As far as Chris and his blowhard pals, they can bugger off as far as I'm concerned.  Feel free to censor that line if you wish.    

So two lies gets pointed out and the response is personal attacks. So classy.

-chris

Well I tend not to take seriously accusations of lying from people who think the Earth is only 5000 years old.  

You are right Sitka is in Alaska! You win the geography prize but Sitka Spruce actually grows all over the Pacific Northwest including British Columbia and some comes in from there. Bolduc supplies mostly Canadian white spruce panels and rib stock, but they do also make available Sitka Spruce panels.  As to where they get their spruce from, I couldn't tell you, you'd have to ask them.  But it would surprise me if at this point they're getting any of it from the US though I would imagine they have a current stock. Nevertheless, I would expect to see price increases on anything wood from Canada, and that includes Bolduc, in this current tariff climate.

As far as substituting Adirondack spruce, have you tried to buy a small piece of Adirondack spruce maybe for a Guitar top and seen what the prices of that are? It's virtually, if not literally, endangered, quite limited. Steinway doesn't use it and pretty much no other Piano builders do that I'm aware of. Yes, we could manage to grow more I suppose.  I don't know about you, but I don't think I'll be here in 50 years to harvest that crop.  

So I appreciate you weighing in, again, trying your hardest to be relevant.  But, once again, I'm not surprised to find you don't know what the hell you're talking about. 

Nothing personal, just calling balls and strikes. Bless your little heart. 

I'm very much against censorship, but the post in question was politics disguised as a piano question and then claimed to be humor. To me its the lying that shows no class, but it should have stayed posted IMO.

Also, last i looked Sitka is in Alaska. Also, we wouldn't need to import if we used our own lumber such as the Adirondacks and other places. Instead of shutting those resource off on false environmental claims. Just some common sense forestry would save the species and provide the needed lumber.

-chris

David, Please do not leave these forums. You have been, and hopefully will be, very helpful to many Techs.

I did repost it in reply #12

The Mission of PTG

There has been a lively discussion on the forum this week. A post made on April Fool's Day was deemed outside the boundaries of the Code of Conduct of the forum and was removed.  Since then there has been a good deal of wrangling of ideas in response.  Thanks to Benjamin Sanchez for posting a copy of the "rules" as a gentle reminder of how we should all behave.  There have been a couple of questions about how PTG and by implication "The Board" should be handling all of this.  Let me start by posting the Mission Statement as a reminder of exactly what we are seeking to be as an organization.  

From Bylaws Article I–Mission "The mission of the Piano Technicians Guild is to promote the highest possible standards of piano service by providing members with opportunities for professional development, by recognizing technical competence through examinations and by advancing the interests of its members."  In short, PTG focuses on pianos and piano technology and the education surrounding piano technology.

As an organization with approximately 3000 members, we have people from a variety of backgrounds, life experiences and personal values.  Some of us have very strong feelings about our personal values and beliefs and others are just happy to show up and join the discussion.  Since serving as your President, I have tried to make sure that when we get passionately distracted by subjects outside of PTG that we bring the focus back home.  If the points are about pianos and piano technology, please be as passionate as possible. If there are other topics that interest you, please feel free to join in the discussion with a group that engages in those discussions.  One thing I have learned during our recent search for a new Executive Director is that there are Groups and Associations out there for every conceivable interest.  Just do an online search for a group with any interest you can imagine and it's out there.

Let me address a couple of themes that have emerged in the discussion.  What is PTG doing about lobbying to diversify its membership?  What is PTG doing to lobby the government about the potential economic impact of decisions that are being made?  With regards to the first issue, PTG is a professional trade organization for members engaged in a career path. Why people choose a particular career is a challenging question.  "What do you want to be when you grow up?" is something that we all heard somewhere along the way. Stumbling into piano technology is how most of us got here.  Making people choose our vocation is beyond our ability.  We are targeting our marketing on reaching out to people seeking career choices.  On the main PTG site visit the tab for "Become a Tech".  The next step is for local chapters to reach out to those who have clicked on the site and are willing to take the next step.

Let's talk a minute about lobbying the government.  We currently have approximately 3000 members.  I was born in Henrietta, Texas. It is a small town that had a population of 2700.  Today they are up to 3200.  Most of you have never heard of Henrietta, Texas and if the entire town turned out for a protest of some policy the federal government was proposing, do you think the mainstream media would cover it? The last time we even approached Washington, DC was over the Ivory issue. We did that because it had the potential to affect every member of the organization.  Even then, we only devoted part of our limited resources to make a small request and gather information. We never hired a lobbyist as the cost was too prohibitive.

In the end, stay on topic on the forums and play nice. As my friend Red Green often says, "Remember, we're all in this together."

Micah

Yes, I think the rules are poorly written if one thin skinned, sanctimonious and humorless individual can anonymously dictate what gets taken down. I have no intention of flagging any remarks because I think there's no crime in being an idiot. In fact, I think idiocy should remain on full display for all to see. I consider that consistent with my commitment to DEI. Even idiots are welcome, but they don't get to operate with complete immunity from criticism.

I have reviewed the rules and find nothing I have said, that wasn't provoked, outside those boundaries. We're mostly adults here, with some notable exceptions, and should be able to handle some controversy and disagreement. 

But in the spirit of moving on I will let you and others have the last word as I don't have much more to contribute to this topic except to say I stand by everything I have written whether it's about any individual contributor to this list or the role I think the PTG should assume in this unprecedented political climate for the benefit and in defense of the industry and the dues paying members of this organization. When the President of the PTG or the board makes a comment on that, I may have something more to say. Until then, I'll consider their silence as their final word as disappointing and complicit as I might find that to be. 

David,

I would be happy to have a private discussion about why that post was removed, if you'd like.  We really do try to be reasonable and accessible to the membership.

Regarding imbalanced "censorship", as you say - we only review comments or posts that have been flagged by a user. So feel free to flag anything you think should be checked, define which rule is being violated, and we'll review.  I'd say the same to everyone else here. Additionally, the Board makes no routine moderation decisions or recommendations, as you have said.  That's purely on my team, until we escalate a serious situation up to them and make a formal recommendation for a suspension/ban, which happens rarely, thankfully. 

We are a team of volunteers trying to foster a healthy environment to talk about pianos here, and have an obligation to enforce our online community rules in an increasingly tense social and political climate.  I would encourage you and everyone in this thread to review those rules and try to paint within the lines. It's not censorship, it's moderation, as every user of these forums agree to when they join.

I would encourage conversations that fall outside of those rules to occur off-platform or privately, as they can certainly be important discussions to have.  If one feels these rules are poorly written or need changing, an RFA may be submitted to the Board by the late April deadline. Council at the Annual Convention in July is an excellent place to raise concerns directly to the Board, as well.

Oh did I hurt your feelings Chris?  Then don't call me a liar.  

General comment (not for Chris, beyond his capacity):

It doesn't go unnoticed re the board monitoring and censoring my comments pointing out the irony and humor of the DEI programs and then developing those ideas in terms of how it might affect our industry, were completely impersonal.  But the defamatory language coming from Chris and the other unknown to me entity who made the comment "silence dogooder", whatever that means--a little work on wordsmithing is in order there--go unchecked.  I'd say our censorship practices are a bit out of balance.  

The PTG, if it sticks to its public message of DEI in broadening access to the trade (right now it can barely manage being non bullying to the many women members), will be under attack from this administration.  I would like to see the PTG make a statement of commitment to its members that it will stand by its mission statement.  It wouldn't be the first organization to bend the knee.

As far as Chris and his blowhard pals, they can bugger off as far as I'm concerned.  Feel free to censor that line if you wish.    

So two lies gets pointed out and the response is personal attacks. So classy.

-chris

Well I tend not to take seriously accusations of lying from people who think the Earth is only 5000 years old.  

You are right Sitka is in Alaska! You win the geography prize but Sitka Spruce actually grows all over the Pacific Northwest including British Columbia and some comes in from there. Bolduc supplies mostly Canadian white spruce panels and rib stock, but they do also make available Sitka Spruce panels.  As to where they get their spruce from, I couldn't tell you, you'd have to ask them.  But it would surprise me if at this point they're getting any of it from the US though I would imagine they have a current stock. Nevertheless, I would expect to see price increases on anything wood from Canada, and that includes Bolduc, in this current tariff climate.

As far as substituting Adirondack spruce, have you tried to buy a small piece of Adirondack spruce maybe for a Guitar top and seen what the prices of that are? It's virtually, if not literally, endangered, quite limited. Steinway doesn't use it and pretty much no other Piano builders do that I'm aware of. Yes, we could manage to grow more I suppose.  I don't know about you, but I don't think I'll be here in 50 years to harvest that crop.  

So I appreciate you weighing in, again, trying your hardest to be relevant.  But, once again, I'm not surprised to find you don't know what the hell you're talking about. 

Nothing personal, just calling balls and strikes. Bless your little heart. 

I'm very much against censorship, but the post in question was politics disguised as a piano question and then claimed to be humor. To me its the lying that shows no class, but it should have stayed posted IMO.

Also, last i looked Sitka is in Alaska. Also, we wouldn't need to import if we used our own lumber such as the Adirondacks and other places. Instead of shutting those resource off on false environmental claims. Just some common sense forestry would save the species and provide the needed lumber.

-chris

David, Please do not leave these forums. You have been, and hopefully will be, very helpful to many Techs.

I did repost it in reply #12

Micah

Yes, I think the rules are poorly written if one thin skinned, sanctimonious and humorless individual can anonymously dictate what gets taken down. I have no intention of flagging any remarks because I think there's no crime in being an idiot. In fact, I think idiocy should remain on full display for all to see. I consider that consistent with my commitment to DEI. Even idiots are welcome, but they don't get to operate with complete immunity from criticism.

I have reviewed the rules and find nothing I have said, that wasn't provoked, outside those boundaries. We're mostly adults here, with some notable exceptions, and should be able to handle some controversy and disagreement. 

But in the spirit of moving on I will let you and others have the last word as I don't have much more to contribute to this topic except to say I stand by everything I have written whether it's about any individual contributor to this list or the role I think the PTG should assume in this unprecedented political climate for the benefit and in defense of the industry and the dues paying members of this organization. When the President of the PTG or the board makes a comment on that, I may have something more to say. Until then, I'll consider their silence as their final word as disappointing and complicit as I might find that to be. 

David,

I would be happy to have a private discussion about why that post was removed, if you'd like.  We really do try to be reasonable and accessible to the membership.

Regarding imbalanced "censorship", as you say - we only review comments or posts that have been flagged by a user. So feel free to flag anything you think should be checked, define which rule is being violated, and we'll review.  I'd say the same to everyone else here. Additionally, the Board makes no routine moderation decisions or recommendations, as you have said.  That's purely on my team, until we escalate a serious situation up to them and make a formal recommendation for a suspension/ban, which happens rarely, thankfully. 

We are a team of volunteers trying to foster a healthy environment to talk about pianos here, and have an obligation to enforce our online community rules in an increasingly tense social and political climate.  I would encourage you and everyone in this thread to review those rules and try to paint within the lines. It's not censorship, it's moderation, as every user of these forums agree to when they join.

I would encourage conversations that fall outside of those rules to occur off-platform or privately, as they can certainly be important discussions to have.  If one feels these rules are poorly written or need changing, an RFA may be submitted to the Board by the late April deadline. Council at the Annual Convention in July is an excellent place to raise concerns directly to the Board, as well.

Oh did I hurt your feelings Chris?  Then don't call me a liar.  

General comment (not for Chris, beyond his capacity):

It doesn't go unnoticed re the board monitoring and censoring my comments pointing out the irony and humor of the DEI programs and then developing those ideas in terms of how it might affect our industry, were completely impersonal.  But the defamatory language coming from Chris and the other unknown to me entity who made the comment "silence dogooder", whatever that means--a little work on wordsmithing is in order there--go unchecked.  I'd say our censorship practices are a bit out of balance.  

The PTG, if it sticks to its public message of DEI in broadening access to the trade (right now it can barely manage being non bullying to the many women members), will be under attack from this administration.  I would like to see the PTG make a statement of commitment to its members that it will stand by its mission statement.  It wouldn't be the first organization to bend the knee.

As far as Chris and his blowhard pals, they can bugger off as far as I'm concerned.  Feel free to censor that line if you wish.    

So two lies gets pointed out and the response is personal attacks. So classy.

-chris

Well I tend not to take seriously accusations of lying from people who think the Earth is only 5000 years old.  

You are right Sitka is in Alaska! You win the geography prize but Sitka Spruce actually grows all over the Pacific Northwest including British Columbia and some comes in from there. Bolduc supplies mostly Canadian white spruce panels and rib stock, but they do also make available Sitka Spruce panels.  As to where they get their spruce from, I couldn't tell you, you'd have to ask them.  But it would surprise me if at this point they're getting any of it from the US though I would imagine they have a current stock. Nevertheless, I would expect to see price increases on anything wood from Canada, and that includes Bolduc, in this current tariff climate.

As far as substituting Adirondack spruce, have you tried to buy a small piece of Adirondack spruce maybe for a Guitar top and seen what the prices of that are? It's virtually, if not literally, endangered, quite limited. Steinway doesn't use it and pretty much no other Piano builders do that I'm aware of. Yes, we could manage to grow more I suppose.  I don't know about you, but I don't think I'll be here in 50 years to harvest that crop.  

So I appreciate you weighing in, again, trying your hardest to be relevant.  But, once again, I'm not surprised to find you don't know what the hell you're talking about. 

Nothing personal, just calling balls and strikes. Bless your little heart. 

I'm very much against censorship, but the post in question was politics disguised as a piano question and then claimed to be humor. To me its the lying that shows no class, but it should have stayed posted IMO.

Also, last i looked Sitka is in Alaska. Also, we wouldn't need to import if we used our own lumber such as the Adirondacks and other places. Instead of shutting those resource off on false environmental claims. Just some common sense forestry would save the species and provide the needed lumber.

-chris

David, Please do not leave these forums. You have been, and hopefully will be, very helpful to many Techs.

I did repost it in reply #12

I support what Chris has said 100% and I support what David has said 100%.  That does not mean I agree with either of them on everything, I think it is just fine for both of them to say whatever they want to say and it does not have to be polite or even wise.  

I remember the old pianotech forum.  That could be a very rough and tumble place to be, but was also incredibly vigorous and a wonderful learning and giving environment.  This milquetoast forum we have now does not hold a candle to it, and I would trade this for that in a heartbeat.  When i think of free speech and this forum, the word that comes to mind is neutered.

In terms of free speech, this THING is an utter mediocrity, where the narrow and small rule the day in arbitrariness and pettiness. 

If you take away by censorship the rights of free speech that I have anywhere else in this country, I will leave.  You do not own my free speech or that of anyone else.  Every time something like this comes up, I ask myself, WHY AM I STILL HERE?  

How many really good people have we lost in the the past few years to this stuff?  Why do highly valued members who have contributed much to all leave?  Why does that mean nothing to our powers that be?  Everything seems frozen in place, where there seems to be no need to change..  

Micah

Yes, I think the rules are poorly written if one thin skinned, sanctimonious and humorless individual can anonymously dictate what gets taken down. I have no intention of flagging any remarks because I think there's no crime in being an idiot. In fact, I think idiocy should remain on full display for all to see. I consider that consistent with my commitment to DEI. Even idiots are welcome, but they don't get to operate with complete immunity from criticism.

I have reviewed the rules and find nothing I have said, that wasn't provoked, outside those boundaries. We're mostly adults here, with some notable exceptions, and should be able to handle some controversy and disagreement. 

But in the spirit of moving on I will let you and others have the last word as I don't have much more to contribute to this topic except to say I stand by everything I have written whether it's about any individual contributor to this list or the role I think the PTG should assume in this unprecedented political climate for the benefit and in defense of the industry and the dues paying members of this organization. When the President of the PTG or the board makes a comment on that, I may have something more to say. Until then, I'll consider their silence as their final word as disappointing and complicit as I might find that to be. 

David,

I would be happy to have a private discussion about why that post was removed, if you'd like.  We really do try to be reasonable and accessible to the membership.

Regarding imbalanced "censorship", as you say - we only review comments or posts that have been flagged by a user. So feel free to flag anything you think should be checked, define which rule is being violated, and we'll review.  I'd say the same to everyone else here. Additionally, the Board makes no routine moderation decisions or recommendations, as you have said.  That's purely on my team, until we escalate a serious situation up to them and make a formal recommendation for a suspension/ban, which happens rarely, thankfully. 

We are a team of volunteers trying to foster a healthy environment to talk about pianos here, and have an obligation to enforce our online community rules in an increasingly tense social and political climate.  I would encourage you and everyone in this thread to review those rules and try to paint within the lines. It's not censorship, it's moderation, as every user of these forums agree to when they join.

I would encourage conversations that fall outside of those rules to occur off-platform or privately, as they can certainly be important discussions to have.  If one feels these rules are poorly written or need changing, an RFA may be submitted to the Board by the late April deadline. Council at the Annual Convention in July is an excellent place to raise concerns directly to the Board, as well.

Oh did I hurt your feelings Chris?  Then don't call me a liar.  

General comment (not for Chris, beyond his capacity):

It doesn't go unnoticed re the board monitoring and censoring my comments pointing out the irony and humor of the DEI programs and then developing those ideas in terms of how it might affect our industry, were completely impersonal.  But the defamatory language coming from Chris and the other unknown to me entity who made the comment "silence dogooder", whatever that means--a little work on wordsmithing is in order there--go unchecked.  I'd say our censorship practices are a bit out of balance.  

The PTG, if it sticks to its public message of DEI in broadening access to the trade (right now it can barely manage being non bullying to the many women members), will be under attack from this administration.  I would like to see the PTG make a statement of commitment to its members that it will stand by its mission statement.  It wouldn't be the first organization to bend the knee.

As far as Chris and his blowhard pals, they can bugger off as far as I'm concerned.  Feel free to censor that line if you wish.    

So two lies gets pointed out and the response is personal attacks. So classy.

-chris

Well I tend not to take seriously accusations of lying from people who think the Earth is only 5000 years old.  

You are right Sitka is in Alaska! You win the geography prize but Sitka Spruce actually grows all over the Pacific Northwest including British Columbia and some comes in from there. Bolduc supplies mostly Canadian white spruce panels and rib stock, but they do also make available Sitka Spruce panels.  As to where they get their spruce from, I couldn't tell you, you'd have to ask them.  But it would surprise me if at this point they're getting any of it from the US though I would imagine they have a current stock. Nevertheless, I would expect to see price increases on anything wood from Canada, and that includes Bolduc, in this current tariff climate.

As far as substituting Adirondack spruce, have you tried to buy a small piece of Adirondack spruce maybe for a Guitar top and seen what the prices of that are? It's virtually, if not literally, endangered, quite limited. Steinway doesn't use it and pretty much no other Piano builders do that I'm aware of. Yes, we could manage to grow more I suppose.  I don't know about you, but I don't think I'll be here in 50 years to harvest that crop.  

So I appreciate you weighing in, again, trying your hardest to be relevant.  But, once again, I'm not surprised to find you don't know what the hell you're talking about. 

Nothing personal, just calling balls and strikes. Bless your little heart. 

I'm very much against censorship, but the post in question was politics disguised as a piano question and then claimed to be humor. To me its the lying that shows no class, but it should have stayed posted IMO.

Also, last i looked Sitka is in Alaska. Also, we wouldn't need to import if we used our own lumber such as the Adirondacks and other places. Instead of shutting those resource off on false environmental claims. Just some common sense forestry would save the species and provide the needed lumber.

-chris

David, Please do not leave these forums. You have been, and hopefully will be, very helpful to many Techs.

I did repost it in reply #12

All due respect William but you can't both support what Chris and I have said when Chris is calling me a liar. 

Re your other question on equity v equality, I really don't want to get into parsing those words, it's not really relevant and it's a distinction without a difference in this case. I've said my piece on this subject and moving on. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2025 19:17
From: William Truitt
Subject: bumped thread

I support what Chris has said 100% and I support what David has said 100%.  That does not mean I agree with either of them on everything, I think it is just fine for both of them to say whatever they want to say and it does not have to be polite or even wise.  

I remember the old pianotech forum.  That could be a very rough and tumble place to be, but was also incredibly vigorous and a wonderful learning and giving environment.  This milquetoast forum we have now does not hold a candle to it, and I would trade this for that in a heartbeat.  When i think of free speech and this forum, the word that comes to mind is neutered.

In terms of free speech, this THING is an utter mediocrity, where the narrow and small rule the day in arbitrariness and pettiness. 

If you take away by censorship the rights of free speech that I have anywhere else in this country, I will leave.  You do not own my free speech or that of anyone else.  Every time something like this comes up, I ask myself, WHY AM I STILL HERE?  

How many really good people have we lost in the the past few years to this stuff?  Why do highly valued members who have contributed much to all leave?  Why does that mean nothing to our powers that be?  Everything seems frozen in place, where there seems to be no need to change..  

------------------------------
William Truitt RPT
Bridgewater NH
(603) 744-2277

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2025 04:45
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

Micah

Yes, I think the rules are poorly written if one thin skinned, sanctimonious and humorless individual can anonymously dictate what gets taken down. I have no intention of flagging any remarks because I think there's no crime in being an idiot. In fact, I think idiocy should remain on full display for all to see. I consider that consistent with my commitment to DEI. Even idiots are welcome, but they don't get to operate with complete immunity from criticism.

I have reviewed the rules and find nothing I have said, that wasn't provoked, outside those boundaries. We're mostly adults here, with some notable exceptions, and should be able to handle some controversy and disagreement. 

But in the spirit of moving on I will let you and others have the last word as I don't have much more to contribute to this topic except to say I stand by everything I have written whether it's about any individual contributor to this list or the role I think the PTG should assume in this unprecedented political climate for the benefit and in defense of the industry and the dues paying members of this organization. When the President of the PTG or the board makes a comment on that, I may have something more to say. Until then, I'll consider their silence as their final word as disappointing and complicit as I might find that to be. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2025 01:12
From: Micah Sundholm
Subject: bumped thread

David,

I would be happy to have a private discussion about why that post was removed, if you'd like.  We really do try to be reasonable and accessible to the membership.

Regarding imbalanced "censorship", as you say - we only review comments or posts that have been flagged by a user. So feel free to flag anything you think should be checked, define which rule is being violated, and we'll review.  I'd say the same to everyone else here. Additionally, the Board makes no routine moderation decisions or recommendations, as you have said.  That's purely on my team, until we escalate a serious situation up to them and make a formal recommendation for a suspension/ban, which happens rarely, thankfully. 

We are a team of volunteers trying to foster a healthy environment to talk about pianos here, and have an obligation to enforce our online community rules in an increasingly tense social and political climate.  I would encourage you and everyone in this thread to review those rules and try to paint within the lines. It's not censorship, it's moderation, as every user of these forums agree to when they join.

I would encourage conversations that fall outside of those rules to occur off-platform or privately, as they can certainly be important discussions to have.  If one feels these rules are poorly written or need changing, an RFA may be submitted to the Board by the late April deadline. Council at the Annual Convention in July is an excellent place to raise concerns directly to the Board, as well.

------------------------------
Micah Sundholm - RPT
Summit Piano Service
Eugene, OR

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 17:27
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

Oh did I hurt your feelings Chris?  Then don't call me a liar.  

General comment (not for Chris, beyond his capacity):

It doesn't go unnoticed re the board monitoring and censoring my comments pointing out the irony and humor of the DEI programs and then developing those ideas in terms of how it might affect our industry, were completely impersonal.  But the defamatory language coming from Chris and the other unknown to me entity who made the comment "silence dogooder", whatever that means--a little work on wordsmithing is in order there--go unchecked.  I'd say our censorship practices are a bit out of balance.  

The PTG, if it sticks to its public message of DEI in broadening access to the trade (right now it can barely manage being non bullying to the many women members), will be under attack from this administration.  I would like to see the PTG make a statement of commitment to its members that it will stand by its mission statement.  It wouldn't be the first organization to bend the knee.

As far as Chris and his blowhard pals, they can bugger off as far as I'm concerned.  Feel free to censor that line if you wish.    

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 16:16
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: bumped thread

So two lies gets pointed out and the response is personal attacks. So classy.

-chris

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations

Inventor of Inertia Touch Wave (ITW)
Advanced Resonant Compression Engineered Soundboards (ARCHES)

865-986-7720 (text only please)

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 15:11
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

Well I tend not to take seriously accusations of lying from people who think the Earth is only 5000 years old.  

You are right Sitka is in Alaska! You win the geography prize but Sitka Spruce actually grows all over the Pacific Northwest including British Columbia and some comes in from there. Bolduc supplies mostly Canadian white spruce panels and rib stock, but they do also make available Sitka Spruce panels.  As to where they get their spruce from, I couldn't tell you, you'd have to ask them.  But it would surprise me if at this point they're getting any of it from the US though I would imagine they have a current stock. Nevertheless, I would expect to see price increases on anything wood from Canada, and that includes Bolduc, in this current tariff climate.

As far as substituting Adirondack spruce, have you tried to buy a small piece of Adirondack spruce maybe for a Guitar top and seen what the prices of that are? It's virtually, if not literally, endangered, quite limited. Steinway doesn't use it and pretty much no other Piano builders do that I'm aware of. Yes, we could manage to grow more I suppose.  I don't know about you, but I don't think I'll be here in 50 years to harvest that crop.  

So I appreciate you weighing in, again, trying your hardest to be relevant.  But, once again, I'm not surprised to find you don't know what the hell you're talking about. 

Nothing personal, just calling balls and strikes. Bless your little heart. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 11:34
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: bumped thread

I'm very much against censorship, but the post in question was politics disguised as a piano question and then claimed to be humor. To me its the lying that shows no class, but it should have stayed posted IMO.

Also, last i looked Sitka is in Alaska. Also, we wouldn't need to import if we used our own lumber such as the Adirondacks and other places. Instead of shutting those resource off on false environmental claims. Just some common sense forestry would save the species and provide the needed lumber.

-chris

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations

Inventor of Inertia Touch Wave (ITW)
Advanced Resonant Compression Engineered Soundboards (ARCHES)

865-986-7720 (text only please)

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 09:56
From: Tremaine Parsons
Subject: bumped thread

David, Please do not leave these forums. You have been, and hopefully will be, very helpful to many Techs.

------------------------------
Tremaine Parsons RPT
Georgetown CA
(530) 333-9299

Original Message:
Sent: 04-03-2025 19:32
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

I did repost it in reply #12

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

I came to say the original post was political and of bad taste of someone who apparently is trying to poke fun at real issues of the day.  None of this belongs on this website and if you don't realize that then, you are part of the problem.  The attitudes of some of the contributors is not  welcoming to anyone who is trying to keep unnecessary politics away fom pianos.  It was a crude joke and not that funny at all, and now you're just being stubborn and childish.  I came to say this because I know lots of people feel the same way and are choosing to not chime in because this thread is not inviting for any real debate or logic so most people with real points and logic are STAYIING SILENT to watch the train crash into oblivion. Which in a way, is kind of entertaining. Your observational "joke" was anything but funny or observational, Sir.

------------------------------
Matthew W.
A.M.O. Pianos
Lebanon, TN 37087

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2025 10:46
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

All due respect William but you can't both support what Chris and I have said when Chris is calling me a liar. 

Re your other question on equity v equality, I really don't want to get into parsing those words, it's not really relevant and it's a distinction without a difference in this case. I've said my piece on this subject and moving on. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2025 19:17
From: William Truitt
Subject: bumped thread

I support what Chris has said 100% and I support what David has said 100%.  That does not mean I agree with either of them on everything, I think it is just fine for both of them to say whatever they want to say and it does not have to be polite or even wise.  

I remember the old pianotech forum.  That could be a very rough and tumble place to be, but was also incredibly vigorous and a wonderful learning and giving environment.  This milquetoast forum we have now does not hold a candle to it, and I would trade this for that in a heartbeat.  When i think of free speech and this forum, the word that comes to mind is neutered.

In terms of free speech, this THING is an utter mediocrity, where the narrow and small rule the day in arbitrariness and pettiness. 

If you take away by censorship the rights of free speech that I have anywhere else in this country, I will leave.  You do not own my free speech or that of anyone else.  Every time something like this comes up, I ask myself, WHY AM I STILL HERE?  

How many really good people have we lost in the the past few years to this stuff?  Why do highly valued members who have contributed much to all leave?  Why does that mean nothing to our powers that be?  Everything seems frozen in place, where there seems to be no need to change..  

------------------------------
William Truitt RPT
Bridgewater NH
(603) 744-2277

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2025 04:45
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

Micah

Yes, I think the rules are poorly written if one thin skinned, sanctimonious and humorless individual can anonymously dictate what gets taken down. I have no intention of flagging any remarks because I think there's no crime in being an idiot. In fact, I think idiocy should remain on full display for all to see. I consider that consistent with my commitment to DEI. Even idiots are welcome, but they don't get to operate with complete immunity from criticism.

I have reviewed the rules and find nothing I have said, that wasn't provoked, outside those boundaries. We're mostly adults here, with some notable exceptions, and should be able to handle some controversy and disagreement. 

But in the spirit of moving on I will let you and others have the last word as I don't have much more to contribute to this topic except to say I stand by everything I have written whether it's about any individual contributor to this list or the role I think the PTG should assume in this unprecedented political climate for the benefit and in defense of the industry and the dues paying members of this organization. When the President of the PTG or the board makes a comment on that, I may have something more to say. Until then, I'll consider their silence as their final word as disappointing and complicit as I might find that to be. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2025 01:12
From: Micah Sundholm
Subject: bumped thread

David,

I would be happy to have a private discussion about why that post was removed, if you'd like.  We really do try to be reasonable and accessible to the membership.

Regarding imbalanced "censorship", as you say - we only review comments or posts that have been flagged by a user. So feel free to flag anything you think should be checked, define which rule is being violated, and we'll review.  I'd say the same to everyone else here. Additionally, the Board makes no routine moderation decisions or recommendations, as you have said.  That's purely on my team, until we escalate a serious situation up to them and make a formal recommendation for a suspension/ban, which happens rarely, thankfully. 

We are a team of volunteers trying to foster a healthy environment to talk about pianos here, and have an obligation to enforce our online community rules in an increasingly tense social and political climate.  I would encourage you and everyone in this thread to review those rules and try to paint within the lines. It's not censorship, it's moderation, as every user of these forums agree to when they join.

I would encourage conversations that fall outside of those rules to occur off-platform or privately, as they can certainly be important discussions to have.  If one feels these rules are poorly written or need changing, an RFA may be submitted to the Board by the late April deadline. Council at the Annual Convention in July is an excellent place to raise concerns directly to the Board, as well.

------------------------------
Micah Sundholm - RPT
Summit Piano Service
Eugene, OR

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 17:27
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

Oh did I hurt your feelings Chris?  Then don't call me a liar.  

General comment (not for Chris, beyond his capacity):

It doesn't go unnoticed re the board monitoring and censoring my comments pointing out the irony and humor of the DEI programs and then developing those ideas in terms of how it might affect our industry, were completely impersonal.  But the defamatory language coming from Chris and the other unknown to me entity who made the comment "silence dogooder", whatever that means--a little work on wordsmithing is in order there--go unchecked.  I'd say our censorship practices are a bit out of balance.  

The PTG, if it sticks to its public message of DEI in broadening access to the trade (right now it can barely manage being non bullying to the many women members), will be under attack from this administration.  I would like to see the PTG make a statement of commitment to its members that it will stand by its mission statement.  It wouldn't be the first organization to bend the knee.

As far as Chris and his blowhard pals, they can bugger off as far as I'm concerned.  Feel free to censor that line if you wish.    

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 16:16
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: bumped thread

So two lies gets pointed out and the response is personal attacks. So classy.

-chris

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations

Inventor of Inertia Touch Wave (ITW)
Advanced Resonant Compression Engineered Soundboards (ARCHES)

865-986-7720 (text only please)

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 15:11
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

Well I tend not to take seriously accusations of lying from people who think the Earth is only 5000 years old.  

You are right Sitka is in Alaska! You win the geography prize but Sitka Spruce actually grows all over the Pacific Northwest including British Columbia and some comes in from there. Bolduc supplies mostly Canadian white spruce panels and rib stock, but they do also make available Sitka Spruce panels.  As to where they get their spruce from, I couldn't tell you, you'd have to ask them.  But it would surprise me if at this point they're getting any of it from the US though I would imagine they have a current stock. Nevertheless, I would expect to see price increases on anything wood from Canada, and that includes Bolduc, in this current tariff climate.

As far as substituting Adirondack spruce, have you tried to buy a small piece of Adirondack spruce maybe for a Guitar top and seen what the prices of that are? It's virtually, if not literally, endangered, quite limited. Steinway doesn't use it and pretty much no other Piano builders do that I'm aware of. Yes, we could manage to grow more I suppose.  I don't know about you, but I don't think I'll be here in 50 years to harvest that crop.  

So I appreciate you weighing in, again, trying your hardest to be relevant.  But, once again, I'm not surprised to find you don't know what the hell you're talking about. 

Nothing personal, just calling balls and strikes. Bless your little heart. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 11:34
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: bumped thread

I'm very much against censorship, but the post in question was politics disguised as a piano question and then claimed to be humor. To me its the lying that shows no class, but it should have stayed posted IMO.

Also, last i looked Sitka is in Alaska. Also, we wouldn't need to import if we used our own lumber such as the Adirondacks and other places. Instead of shutting those resource off on false environmental claims. Just some common sense forestry would save the species and provide the needed lumber.

-chris

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations

Inventor of Inertia Touch Wave (ITW)
Advanced Resonant Compression Engineered Soundboards (ARCHES)

865-986-7720 (text only please)

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 09:56
From: Tremaine Parsons
Subject: bumped thread

David, Please do not leave these forums. You have been, and hopefully will be, very helpful to many Techs.

------------------------------
Tremaine Parsons RPT
Georgetown CA
(530) 333-9299

Original Message:
Sent: 04-03-2025 19:32
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

I did repost it in reply #12

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Thank you Matthew W for weighing in. I obviously don't agree with you but won't file an anonymous complaint to have your post withdrawn in spite of our obvious differences. 

(I actually thought it was pretty funny, if it weren't such a tragedy. But I don't expect everyone to share my sense of humor, or even have one. Bless your heart, sir). 

I came to say the original post was political and of bad taste of someone who apparently is trying to poke fun at real issues of the day.  None of this belongs on this website and if you don't realize that then, you are part of the problem.  The attitudes of some of the contributors is not  welcoming to anyone who is trying to keep unnecessary politics away fom pianos.  It was a crude joke and not that funny at all, and now you're just being stubborn and childish.  I came to say this because I know lots of people feel the same way and are choosing to not chime in because this thread is not inviting for any real debate or logic so most people with real points and logic are STAYIING SILENT to watch the train crash into oblivion. Which in a way, is kind of entertaining. Your observational "joke" was anything but funny or observational, Sir.

------------------------------
Matthew W.
A.M.O. Pianos
Lebanon, TN 37087

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2025 10:46
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

All due respect William but you can't both support what Chris and I have said when Chris is calling me a liar. 

Re your other question on equity v equality, I really don't want to get into parsing those words, it's not really relevant and it's a distinction without a difference in this case. I've said my piece on this subject and moving on. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2025 19:17
From: William Truitt
Subject: bumped thread

I support what Chris has said 100% and I support what David has said 100%.  That does not mean I agree with either of them on everything, I think it is just fine for both of them to say whatever they want to say and it does not have to be polite or even wise.  

I remember the old pianotech forum.  That could be a very rough and tumble place to be, but was also incredibly vigorous and a wonderful learning and giving environment.  This milquetoast forum we have now does not hold a candle to it, and I would trade this for that in a heartbeat.  When i think of free speech and this forum, the word that comes to mind is neutered.

In terms of free speech, this THING is an utter mediocrity, where the narrow and small rule the day in arbitrariness and pettiness. 

If you take away by censorship the rights of free speech that I have anywhere else in this country, I will leave.  You do not own my free speech or that of anyone else.  Every time something like this comes up, I ask myself, WHY AM I STILL HERE?  

How many really good people have we lost in the the past few years to this stuff?  Why do highly valued members who have contributed much to all leave?  Why does that mean nothing to our powers that be?  Everything seems frozen in place, where there seems to be no need to change..  

------------------------------
William Truitt RPT
Bridgewater NH
(603) 744-2277

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2025 04:45
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

Micah

Yes, I think the rules are poorly written if one thin skinned, sanctimonious and humorless individual can anonymously dictate what gets taken down. I have no intention of flagging any remarks because I think there's no crime in being an idiot. In fact, I think idiocy should remain on full display for all to see. I consider that consistent with my commitment to DEI. Even idiots are welcome, but they don't get to operate with complete immunity from criticism.

I have reviewed the rules and find nothing I have said, that wasn't provoked, outside those boundaries. We're mostly adults here, with some notable exceptions, and should be able to handle some controversy and disagreement. 

But in the spirit of moving on I will let you and others have the last word as I don't have much more to contribute to this topic except to say I stand by everything I have written whether it's about any individual contributor to this list or the role I think the PTG should assume in this unprecedented political climate for the benefit and in defense of the industry and the dues paying members of this organization. When the President of the PTG or the board makes a comment on that, I may have something more to say. Until then, I'll consider their silence as their final word as disappointing and complicit as I might find that to be. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2025 01:12
From: Micah Sundholm
Subject: bumped thread

David,

I would be happy to have a private discussion about why that post was removed, if you'd like.  We really do try to be reasonable and accessible to the membership.

Regarding imbalanced "censorship", as you say - we only review comments or posts that have been flagged by a user. So feel free to flag anything you think should be checked, define which rule is being violated, and we'll review.  I'd say the same to everyone else here. Additionally, the Board makes no routine moderation decisions or recommendations, as you have said.  That's purely on my team, until we escalate a serious situation up to them and make a formal recommendation for a suspension/ban, which happens rarely, thankfully. 

We are a team of volunteers trying to foster a healthy environment to talk about pianos here, and have an obligation to enforce our online community rules in an increasingly tense social and political climate.  I would encourage you and everyone in this thread to review those rules and try to paint within the lines. It's not censorship, it's moderation, as every user of these forums agree to when they join.

I would encourage conversations that fall outside of those rules to occur off-platform or privately, as they can certainly be important discussions to have.  If one feels these rules are poorly written or need changing, an RFA may be submitted to the Board by the late April deadline. Council at the Annual Convention in July is an excellent place to raise concerns directly to the Board, as well.

------------------------------
Micah Sundholm - RPT
Summit Piano Service
Eugene, OR

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 17:27
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

Oh did I hurt your feelings Chris?  Then don't call me a liar.  

General comment (not for Chris, beyond his capacity):

It doesn't go unnoticed re the board monitoring and censoring my comments pointing out the irony and humor of the DEI programs and then developing those ideas in terms of how it might affect our industry, were completely impersonal.  But the defamatory language coming from Chris and the other unknown to me entity who made the comment "silence dogooder", whatever that means--a little work on wordsmithing is in order there--go unchecked.  I'd say our censorship practices are a bit out of balance.  

The PTG, if it sticks to its public message of DEI in broadening access to the trade (right now it can barely manage being non bullying to the many women members), will be under attack from this administration.  I would like to see the PTG make a statement of commitment to its members that it will stand by its mission statement.  It wouldn't be the first organization to bend the knee.

As far as Chris and his blowhard pals, they can bugger off as far as I'm concerned.  Feel free to censor that line if you wish.    

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 16:16
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: bumped thread

So two lies gets pointed out and the response is personal attacks. So classy.

-chris

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations

Inventor of Inertia Touch Wave (ITW)
Advanced Resonant Compression Engineered Soundboards (ARCHES)

865-986-7720 (text only please)

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 15:11
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

Well I tend not to take seriously accusations of lying from people who think the Earth is only 5000 years old.  

You are right Sitka is in Alaska! You win the geography prize but Sitka Spruce actually grows all over the Pacific Northwest including British Columbia and some comes in from there. Bolduc supplies mostly Canadian white spruce panels and rib stock, but they do also make available Sitka Spruce panels.  As to where they get their spruce from, I couldn't tell you, you'd have to ask them.  But it would surprise me if at this point they're getting any of it from the US though I would imagine they have a current stock. Nevertheless, I would expect to see price increases on anything wood from Canada, and that includes Bolduc, in this current tariff climate.

As far as substituting Adirondack spruce, have you tried to buy a small piece of Adirondack spruce maybe for a Guitar top and seen what the prices of that are? It's virtually, if not literally, endangered, quite limited. Steinway doesn't use it and pretty much no other Piano builders do that I'm aware of. Yes, we could manage to grow more I suppose.  I don't know about you, but I don't think I'll be here in 50 years to harvest that crop.  

So I appreciate you weighing in, again, trying your hardest to be relevant.  But, once again, I'm not surprised to find you don't know what the hell you're talking about. 

Nothing personal, just calling balls and strikes. Bless your little heart. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 11:34
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: bumped thread

I'm very much against censorship, but the post in question was politics disguised as a piano question and then claimed to be humor. To me its the lying that shows no class, but it should have stayed posted IMO.

Also, last i looked Sitka is in Alaska. Also, we wouldn't need to import if we used our own lumber such as the Adirondacks and other places. Instead of shutting those resource off on false environmental claims. Just some common sense forestry would save the species and provide the needed lumber.

-chris

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations

Inventor of Inertia Touch Wave (ITW)
Advanced Resonant Compression Engineered Soundboards (ARCHES)

865-986-7720 (text only please)

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 09:56
From: Tremaine Parsons
Subject: bumped thread

David, Please do not leave these forums. You have been, and hopefully will be, very helpful to many Techs.

------------------------------
Tremaine Parsons RPT
Georgetown CA
(530) 333-9299

Original Message:
Sent: 04-03-2025 19:32
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

I did repost it in reply #12

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 4/6/2025 2:34:00 PM
From: David Love
Subject: RE: bumped thread

Thank you Matthew W for weighing in. I obviously don't agree with you but won't file an anonymous complaint to have your post withdrawn in spite of our obvious differences. 

(I actually thought it was pretty funny, if it weren't such a tragedy. But I don't expect everyone to share my sense of humor, or even have one. Bless your heart, sir). 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2025 11:59
From: Matthew Walworth
Subject: bumped thread

I came to say the original post was political and of bad taste of someone who apparently is trying to poke fun at real issues of the day.  None of this belongs on this website and if you don't realize that then, you are part of the problem.  The attitudes of some of the contributors is not  welcoming to anyone who is trying to keep unnecessary politics away fom pianos.  It was a crude joke and not that funny at all, and now you're just being stubborn and childish.  I came to say this because I know lots of people feel the same way and are choosing to not chime in because this thread is not inviting for any real debate or logic so most people with real points and logic are STAYIING SILENT to watch the train crash into oblivion. Which in a way, is kind of entertaining. Your observational "joke" was anything but funny or observational, Sir.

------------------------------
Matthew W.
A.M.O. Pianos
Lebanon, TN 37087

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2025 10:46
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

All due respect William but you can't both support what Chris and I have said when Chris is calling me a liar. 

Re your other question on equity v equality, I really don't want to get into parsing those words, it's not really relevant and it's a distinction without a difference in this case. I've said my piece on this subject and moving on. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2025 19:17
From: William Truitt
Subject: bumped thread

I support what Chris has said 100% and I support what David has said 100%.  That does not mean I agree with either of them on everything, I think it is just fine for both of them to say whatever they want to say and it does not have to be polite or even wise.  

I remember the old pianotech forum.  That could be a very rough and tumble place to be, but was also incredibly vigorous and a wonderful learning and giving environment.  This milquetoast forum we have now does not hold a candle to it, and I would trade this for that in a heartbeat.  When i think of free speech and this forum, the word that comes to mind is neutered.

In terms of free speech, this THING is an utter mediocrity, where the narrow and small rule the day in arbitrariness and pettiness. 

If you take away by censorship the rights of free speech that I have anywhere else in this country, I will leave.  You do not own my free speech or that of anyone else.  Every time something like this comes up, I ask myself, WHY AM I STILL HERE?  

How many really good people have we lost in the the past few years to this stuff?  Why do highly valued members who have contributed much to all leave?  Why does that mean nothing to our powers that be?  Everything seems frozen in place, where there seems to be no need to change..  

------------------------------
William Truitt RPT
Bridgewater NH
(603) 744-2277

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2025 04:45
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

Micah

Yes, I think the rules are poorly written if one thin skinned, sanctimonious and humorless individual can anonymously dictate what gets taken down. I have no intention of flagging any remarks because I think there's no crime in being an idiot. In fact, I think idiocy should remain on full display for all to see. I consider that consistent with my commitment to DEI. Even idiots are welcome, but they don't get to operate with complete immunity from criticism.

I have reviewed the rules and find nothing I have said, that wasn't provoked, outside those boundaries. We're mostly adults here, with some notable exceptions, and should be able to handle some controversy and disagreement. 

But in the spirit of moving on I will let you and others have the last word as I don't have much more to contribute to this topic except to say I stand by everything I have written whether it's about any individual contributor to this list or the role I think the PTG should assume in this unprecedented political climate for the benefit and in defense of the industry and the dues paying members of this organization. When the President of the PTG or the board makes a comment on that, I may have something more to say. Until then, I'll consider their silence as their final word as disappointing and complicit as I might find that to be. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2025 01:12
From: Micah Sundholm
Subject: bumped thread

David,

I would be happy to have a private discussion about why that post was removed, if you'd like.  We really do try to be reasonable and accessible to the membership.

Regarding imbalanced "censorship", as you say - we only review comments or posts that have been flagged by a user. So feel free to flag anything you think should be checked, define which rule is being violated, and we'll review.  I'd say the same to everyone else here. Additionally, the Board makes no routine moderation decisions or recommendations, as you have said.  That's purely on my team, until we escalate a serious situation up to them and make a formal recommendation for a suspension/ban, which happens rarely, thankfully. 

We are a team of volunteers trying to foster a healthy environment to talk about pianos here, and have an obligation to enforce our online community rules in an increasingly tense social and political climate.  I would encourage you and everyone in this thread to review those rules and try to paint within the lines. It's not censorship, it's moderation, as every user of these forums agree to when they join.

I would encourage conversations that fall outside of those rules to occur off-platform or privately, as they can certainly be important discussions to have.  If one feels these rules are poorly written or need changing, an RFA may be submitted to the Board by the late April deadline. Council at the Annual Convention in July is an excellent place to raise concerns directly to the Board, as well.

------------------------------
Micah Sundholm - RPT
Summit Piano Service
Eugene, OR

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 17:27
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

Oh did I hurt your feelings Chris?  Then don't call me a liar.  

General comment (not for Chris, beyond his capacity):

It doesn't go unnoticed re the board monitoring and censoring my comments pointing out the irony and humor of the DEI programs and then developing those ideas in terms of how it might affect our industry, were completely impersonal.  But the defamatory language coming from Chris and the other unknown to me entity who made the comment "silence dogooder", whatever that means--a little work on wordsmithing is in order there--go unchecked.  I'd say our censorship practices are a bit out of balance.  

The PTG, if it sticks to its public message of DEI in broadening access to the trade (right now it can barely manage being non bullying to the many women members), will be under attack from this administration.  I would like to see the PTG make a statement of commitment to its members that it will stand by its mission statement.  It wouldn't be the first organization to bend the knee.

As far as Chris and his blowhard pals, they can bugger off as far as I'm concerned.  Feel free to censor that line if you wish.    

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 16:16
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: bumped thread

So two lies gets pointed out and the response is personal attacks. So classy.

-chris

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations

Inventor of Inertia Touch Wave (ITW)
Advanced Resonant Compression Engineered Soundboards (ARCHES)

865-986-7720 (text only please)

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 15:11
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

Well I tend not to take seriously accusations of lying from people who think the Earth is only 5000 years old.  

You are right Sitka is in Alaska! You win the geography prize but Sitka Spruce actually grows all over the Pacific Northwest including British Columbia and some comes in from there. Bolduc supplies mostly Canadian white spruce panels and rib stock, but they do also make available Sitka Spruce panels.  As to where they get their spruce from, I couldn't tell you, you'd have to ask them.  But it would surprise me if at this point they're getting any of it from the US though I would imagine they have a current stock. Nevertheless, I would expect to see price increases on anything wood from Canada, and that includes Bolduc, in this current tariff climate.

As far as substituting Adirondack spruce, have you tried to buy a small piece of Adirondack spruce maybe for a Guitar top and seen what the prices of that are? It's virtually, if not literally, endangered, quite limited. Steinway doesn't use it and pretty much no other Piano builders do that I'm aware of. Yes, we could manage to grow more I suppose.  I don't know about you, but I don't think I'll be here in 50 years to harvest that crop.  

So I appreciate you weighing in, again, trying your hardest to be relevant.  But, once again, I'm not surprised to find you don't know what the hell you're talking about. 

Nothing personal, just calling balls and strikes. Bless your little heart. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 11:34
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: bumped thread

I'm very much against censorship, but the post in question was politics disguised as a piano question and then claimed to be humor. To me its the lying that shows no class, but it should have stayed posted IMO.

Also, last i looked Sitka is in Alaska. Also, we wouldn't need to import if we used our own lumber such as the Adirondacks and other places. Instead of shutting those resource off on false environmental claims. Just some common sense forestry would save the species and provide the needed lumber.

-chris

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations

Inventor of Inertia Touch Wave (ITW)
Advanced Resonant Compression Engineered Soundboards (ARCHES)

865-986-7720 (text only please)

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 09:56
From: Tremaine Parsons
Subject: bumped thread

David, Please do not leave these forums. You have been, and hopefully will be, very helpful to many Techs.

------------------------------
Tremaine Parsons RPT
Georgetown CA
(530) 333-9299

Original Message:
Sent: 04-03-2025 19:32
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

I did repost it in reply #12

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Exactly - there is nothing anywhere in this thread that will effect anyone's piano or how to service an instrument. It is a nothing post, in which if everyone posted every little snarky thought in our brains then this forum would really suck and be completely useless.  Thankfully we have other platforms to post such useless stuff.  This is an informational and educational website, thus the rules in place are for a very good reason.  It is not censorship lol.  It's literally how any forum works.  You just chose the wrong one this time is all.  No big deal unless people really just want to keep making it one.  

------------------------------
Matthew W.
A.M.O. Pianos
Lebanon, TN 37087

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2025 14:44
From: Paul Williams
Subject: bumped thread

Original Message:
Sent: 4/6/2025 2:34:00 PM
From: David Love
Subject: RE: bumped thread

Thank you Matthew W for weighing in. I obviously don't agree with you but won't file an anonymous complaint to have your post withdrawn in spite of our obvious differences. 

(I actually thought it was pretty funny, if it weren't such a tragedy. But I don't expect everyone to share my sense of humor, or even have one. Bless your heart, sir). 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2025 11:59
From: Matthew Walworth
Subject: bumped thread

I came to say the original post was political and of bad taste of someone who apparently is trying to poke fun at real issues of the day.  None of this belongs on this website and if you don't realize that then, you are part of the problem.  The attitudes of some of the contributors is not  welcoming to anyone who is trying to keep unnecessary politics away fom pianos.  It was a crude joke and not that funny at all, and now you're just being stubborn and childish.  I came to say this because I know lots of people feel the same way and are choosing to not chime in because this thread is not inviting for any real debate or logic so most people with real points and logic are STAYIING SILENT to watch the train crash into oblivion. Which in a way, is kind of entertaining. Your observational "joke" was anything but funny or observational, Sir.

------------------------------
Matthew W.
A.M.O. Pianos
Lebanon, TN 37087

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2025 10:46
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

All due respect William but you can't both support what Chris and I have said when Chris is calling me a liar. 

Re your other question on equity v equality, I really don't want to get into parsing those words, it's not really relevant and it's a distinction without a difference in this case. I've said my piece on this subject and moving on. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2025 19:17
From: William Truitt
Subject: bumped thread

I support what Chris has said 100% and I support what David has said 100%.  That does not mean I agree with either of them on everything, I think it is just fine for both of them to say whatever they want to say and it does not have to be polite or even wise.  

I remember the old pianotech forum.  That could be a very rough and tumble place to be, but was also incredibly vigorous and a wonderful learning and giving environment.  This milquetoast forum we have now does not hold a candle to it, and I would trade this for that in a heartbeat.  When i think of free speech and this forum, the word that comes to mind is neutered.

In terms of free speech, this THING is an utter mediocrity, where the narrow and small rule the day in arbitrariness and pettiness. 

If you take away by censorship the rights of free speech that I have anywhere else in this country, I will leave.  You do not own my free speech or that of anyone else.  Every time something like this comes up, I ask myself, WHY AM I STILL HERE?  

How many really good people have we lost in the the past few years to this stuff?  Why do highly valued members who have contributed much to all leave?  Why does that mean nothing to our powers that be?  Everything seems frozen in place, where there seems to be no need to change..  

------------------------------
William Truitt RPT
Bridgewater NH
(603) 744-2277

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2025 04:45
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

Micah

Yes, I think the rules are poorly written if one thin skinned, sanctimonious and humorless individual can anonymously dictate what gets taken down. I have no intention of flagging any remarks because I think there's no crime in being an idiot. In fact, I think idiocy should remain on full display for all to see. I consider that consistent with my commitment to DEI. Even idiots are welcome, but they don't get to operate with complete immunity from criticism.

I have reviewed the rules and find nothing I have said, that wasn't provoked, outside those boundaries. We're mostly adults here, with some notable exceptions, and should be able to handle some controversy and disagreement. 

But in the spirit of moving on I will let you and others have the last word as I don't have much more to contribute to this topic except to say I stand by everything I have written whether it's about any individual contributor to this list or the role I think the PTG should assume in this unprecedented political climate for the benefit and in defense of the industry and the dues paying members of this organization. When the President of the PTG or the board makes a comment on that, I may have something more to say. Until then, I'll consider their silence as their final word as disappointing and complicit as I might find that to be. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2025 01:12
From: Micah Sundholm
Subject: bumped thread

David,

I would be happy to have a private discussion about why that post was removed, if you'd like.  We really do try to be reasonable and accessible to the membership.

Regarding imbalanced "censorship", as you say - we only review comments or posts that have been flagged by a user. So feel free to flag anything you think should be checked, define which rule is being violated, and we'll review.  I'd say the same to everyone else here. Additionally, the Board makes no routine moderation decisions or recommendations, as you have said.  That's purely on my team, until we escalate a serious situation up to them and make a formal recommendation for a suspension/ban, which happens rarely, thankfully. 

We are a team of volunteers trying to foster a healthy environment to talk about pianos here, and have an obligation to enforce our online community rules in an increasingly tense social and political climate.  I would encourage you and everyone in this thread to review those rules and try to paint within the lines. It's not censorship, it's moderation, as every user of these forums agree to when they join.

I would encourage conversations that fall outside of those rules to occur off-platform or privately, as they can certainly be important discussions to have.  If one feels these rules are poorly written or need changing, an RFA may be submitted to the Board by the late April deadline. Council at the Annual Convention in July is an excellent place to raise concerns directly to the Board, as well.

------------------------------
Micah Sundholm - RPT
Summit Piano Service
Eugene, OR

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 17:27
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

Oh did I hurt your feelings Chris?  Then don't call me a liar.  

General comment (not for Chris, beyond his capacity):

It doesn't go unnoticed re the board monitoring and censoring my comments pointing out the irony and humor of the DEI programs and then developing those ideas in terms of how it might affect our industry, were completely impersonal.  But the defamatory language coming from Chris and the other unknown to me entity who made the comment "silence dogooder", whatever that means--a little work on wordsmithing is in order there--go unchecked.  I'd say our censorship practices are a bit out of balance.  

The PTG, if it sticks to its public message of DEI in broadening access to the trade (right now it can barely manage being non bullying to the many women members), will be under attack from this administration.  I would like to see the PTG make a statement of commitment to its members that it will stand by its mission statement.  It wouldn't be the first organization to bend the knee.

As far as Chris and his blowhard pals, they can bugger off as far as I'm concerned.  Feel free to censor that line if you wish.    

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 16:16
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: bumped thread

So two lies gets pointed out and the response is personal attacks. So classy.

-chris

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations

Inventor of Inertia Touch Wave (ITW)
Advanced Resonant Compression Engineered Soundboards (ARCHES)

865-986-7720 (text only please)

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 15:11
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

Well I tend not to take seriously accusations of lying from people who think the Earth is only 5000 years old.  

You are right Sitka is in Alaska! You win the geography prize but Sitka Spruce actually grows all over the Pacific Northwest including British Columbia and some comes in from there. Bolduc supplies mostly Canadian white spruce panels and rib stock, but they do also make available Sitka Spruce panels.  As to where they get their spruce from, I couldn't tell you, you'd have to ask them.  But it would surprise me if at this point they're getting any of it from the US though I would imagine they have a current stock. Nevertheless, I would expect to see price increases on anything wood from Canada, and that includes Bolduc, in this current tariff climate.

As far as substituting Adirondack spruce, have you tried to buy a small piece of Adirondack spruce maybe for a Guitar top and seen what the prices of that are? It's virtually, if not literally, endangered, quite limited. Steinway doesn't use it and pretty much no other Piano builders do that I'm aware of. Yes, we could manage to grow more I suppose.  I don't know about you, but I don't think I'll be here in 50 years to harvest that crop.  

So I appreciate you weighing in, again, trying your hardest to be relevant.  But, once again, I'm not surprised to find you don't know what the hell you're talking about. 

Nothing personal, just calling balls and strikes. Bless your little heart. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 11:34
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: bumped thread

I'm very much against censorship, but the post in question was politics disguised as a piano question and then claimed to be humor. To me its the lying that shows no class, but it should have stayed posted IMO.

Also, last i looked Sitka is in Alaska. Also, we wouldn't need to import if we used our own lumber such as the Adirondacks and other places. Instead of shutting those resource off on false environmental claims. Just some common sense forestry would save the species and provide the needed lumber.

-chris

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations

Inventor of Inertia Touch Wave (ITW)
Advanced Resonant Compression Engineered Soundboards (ARCHES)

865-986-7720 (text only please)

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 09:56
From: Tremaine Parsons
Subject: bumped thread

David, Please do not leave these forums. You have been, and hopefully will be, very helpful to many Techs.

------------------------------
Tremaine Parsons RPT
Georgetown CA
(530) 333-9299

Original Message:
Sent: 04-03-2025 19:32
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

I did repost it in reply #12

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Well recently imposed tariffs are certainly relevant to piano service. And I think DEI is relevant to our PTG. By DEI, I mean what it stands for and not the politicized version of DEI. No "tit for tat" please. Just my opinion.

Exactly - there is nothing anywhere in this thread that will effect anyone's piano or how to service an instrument. It is a nothing post, in which if everyone posted every little snarky thought in our brains then this forum would really suck and be completely useless.  Thankfully we have other platforms to post such useless stuff.  This is an informational and educational website, thus the rules in place are for a very good reason.  It is not censorship lol.  It's literally how any forum works.  You just chose the wrong one this time is all.  No big deal unless people really just want to keep making it one.  

------------------------------
Matthew W.
A.M.O. Pianos
Lebanon, TN 37087

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2025 14:44
From: Paul Williams
Subject: bumped thread

Original Message:
Sent: 4/6/2025 2:34:00 PM
From: David Love
Subject: RE: bumped thread

Thank you Matthew W for weighing in. I obviously don't agree with you but won't file an anonymous complaint to have your post withdrawn in spite of our obvious differences. 

(I actually thought it was pretty funny, if it weren't such a tragedy. But I don't expect everyone to share my sense of humor, or even have one. Bless your heart, sir). 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2025 11:59
From: Matthew Walworth
Subject: bumped thread

I came to say the original post was political and of bad taste of someone who apparently is trying to poke fun at real issues of the day.  None of this belongs on this website and if you don't realize that then, you are part of the problem.  The attitudes of some of the contributors is not  welcoming to anyone who is trying to keep unnecessary politics away fom pianos.  It was a crude joke and not that funny at all, and now you're just being stubborn and childish.  I came to say this because I know lots of people feel the same way and are choosing to not chime in because this thread is not inviting for any real debate or logic so most people with real points and logic are STAYIING SILENT to watch the train crash into oblivion. Which in a way, is kind of entertaining. Your observational "joke" was anything but funny or observational, Sir.

------------------------------
Matthew W.
A.M.O. Pianos
Lebanon, TN 37087

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2025 10:46
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

All due respect William but you can't both support what Chris and I have said when Chris is calling me a liar. 

Re your other question on equity v equality, I really don't want to get into parsing those words, it's not really relevant and it's a distinction without a difference in this case. I've said my piece on this subject and moving on. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2025 19:17
From: William Truitt
Subject: bumped thread

I support what Chris has said 100% and I support what David has said 100%.  That does not mean I agree with either of them on everything, I think it is just fine for both of them to say whatever they want to say and it does not have to be polite or even wise.  

I remember the old pianotech forum.  That could be a very rough and tumble place to be, but was also incredibly vigorous and a wonderful learning and giving environment.  This milquetoast forum we have now does not hold a candle to it, and I would trade this for that in a heartbeat.  When i think of free speech and this forum, the word that comes to mind is neutered.

In terms of free speech, this THING is an utter mediocrity, where the narrow and small rule the day in arbitrariness and pettiness. 

If you take away by censorship the rights of free speech that I have anywhere else in this country, I will leave.  You do not own my free speech or that of anyone else.  Every time something like this comes up, I ask myself, WHY AM I STILL HERE?  

How many really good people have we lost in the the past few years to this stuff?  Why do highly valued members who have contributed much to all leave?  Why does that mean nothing to our powers that be?  Everything seems frozen in place, where there seems to be no need to change..  

------------------------------
William Truitt RPT
Bridgewater NH
(603) 744-2277

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2025 04:45
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

Micah

Yes, I think the rules are poorly written if one thin skinned, sanctimonious and humorless individual can anonymously dictate what gets taken down. I have no intention of flagging any remarks because I think there's no crime in being an idiot. In fact, I think idiocy should remain on full display for all to see. I consider that consistent with my commitment to DEI. Even idiots are welcome, but they don't get to operate with complete immunity from criticism.

I have reviewed the rules and find nothing I have said, that wasn't provoked, outside those boundaries. We're mostly adults here, with some notable exceptions, and should be able to handle some controversy and disagreement. 

But in the spirit of moving on I will let you and others have the last word as I don't have much more to contribute to this topic except to say I stand by everything I have written whether it's about any individual contributor to this list or the role I think the PTG should assume in this unprecedented political climate for the benefit and in defense of the industry and the dues paying members of this organization. When the President of the PTG or the board makes a comment on that, I may have something more to say. Until then, I'll consider their silence as their final word as disappointing and complicit as I might find that to be. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2025 01:12
From: Micah Sundholm
Subject: bumped thread

David,

I would be happy to have a private discussion about why that post was removed, if you'd like.  We really do try to be reasonable and accessible to the membership.

Regarding imbalanced "censorship", as you say - we only review comments or posts that have been flagged by a user. So feel free to flag anything you think should be checked, define which rule is being violated, and we'll review.  I'd say the same to everyone else here. Additionally, the Board makes no routine moderation decisions or recommendations, as you have said.  That's purely on my team, until we escalate a serious situation up to them and make a formal recommendation for a suspension/ban, which happens rarely, thankfully. 

We are a team of volunteers trying to foster a healthy environment to talk about pianos here, and have an obligation to enforce our online community rules in an increasingly tense social and political climate.  I would encourage you and everyone in this thread to review those rules and try to paint within the lines. It's not censorship, it's moderation, as every user of these forums agree to when they join.

I would encourage conversations that fall outside of those rules to occur off-platform or privately, as they can certainly be important discussions to have.  If one feels these rules are poorly written or need changing, an RFA may be submitted to the Board by the late April deadline. Council at the Annual Convention in July is an excellent place to raise concerns directly to the Board, as well.

------------------------------
Micah Sundholm - RPT
Summit Piano Service
Eugene, OR

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 17:27
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

Oh did I hurt your feelings Chris?  Then don't call me a liar.  

General comment (not for Chris, beyond his capacity):

It doesn't go unnoticed re the board monitoring and censoring my comments pointing out the irony and humor of the DEI programs and then developing those ideas in terms of how it might affect our industry, were completely impersonal.  But the defamatory language coming from Chris and the other unknown to me entity who made the comment "silence dogooder", whatever that means--a little work on wordsmithing is in order there--go unchecked.  I'd say our censorship practices are a bit out of balance.  

The PTG, if it sticks to its public message of DEI in broadening access to the trade (right now it can barely manage being non bullying to the many women members), will be under attack from this administration.  I would like to see the PTG make a statement of commitment to its members that it will stand by its mission statement.  It wouldn't be the first organization to bend the knee.

As far as Chris and his blowhard pals, they can bugger off as far as I'm concerned.  Feel free to censor that line if you wish.    

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 16:16
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: bumped thread

So two lies gets pointed out and the response is personal attacks. So classy.

-chris

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations

Inventor of Inertia Touch Wave (ITW)
Advanced Resonant Compression Engineered Soundboards (ARCHES)

865-986-7720 (text only please)

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 15:11
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

Well I tend not to take seriously accusations of lying from people who think the Earth is only 5000 years old.  

You are right Sitka is in Alaska! You win the geography prize but Sitka Spruce actually grows all over the Pacific Northwest including British Columbia and some comes in from there. Bolduc supplies mostly Canadian white spruce panels and rib stock, but they do also make available Sitka Spruce panels.  As to where they get their spruce from, I couldn't tell you, you'd have to ask them.  But it would surprise me if at this point they're getting any of it from the US though I would imagine they have a current stock. Nevertheless, I would expect to see price increases on anything wood from Canada, and that includes Bolduc, in this current tariff climate.

As far as substituting Adirondack spruce, have you tried to buy a small piece of Adirondack spruce maybe for a Guitar top and seen what the prices of that are? It's virtually, if not literally, endangered, quite limited. Steinway doesn't use it and pretty much no other Piano builders do that I'm aware of. Yes, we could manage to grow more I suppose.  I don't know about you, but I don't think I'll be here in 50 years to harvest that crop.  

So I appreciate you weighing in, again, trying your hardest to be relevant.  But, once again, I'm not surprised to find you don't know what the hell you're talking about. 

Nothing personal, just calling balls and strikes. Bless your little heart. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 11:34
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: bumped thread

I'm very much against censorship, but the post in question was politics disguised as a piano question and then claimed to be humor. To me its the lying that shows no class, but it should have stayed posted IMO.

Also, last i looked Sitka is in Alaska. Also, we wouldn't need to import if we used our own lumber such as the Adirondacks and other places. Instead of shutting those resource off on false environmental claims. Just some common sense forestry would save the species and provide the needed lumber.

-chris

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations

Inventor of Inertia Touch Wave (ITW)
Advanced Resonant Compression Engineered Soundboards (ARCHES)

865-986-7720 (text only please)

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 09:56
From: Tremaine Parsons
Subject: bumped thread

David, Please do not leave these forums. You have been, and hopefully will be, very helpful to many Techs.

------------------------------
Tremaine Parsons RPT
Georgetown CA
(530) 333-9299

Original Message:
Sent: 04-03-2025 19:32
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

I did repost it in reply #12

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Maybe the PTG can start a Piano Humor Community. Designed for people who think they are comedians and post their "comedy" there. This could circumvent the need to post bad humour, or use humor as a disguise for a political post on a forum which was designed for sharing piano technical information. This would help from chasing away serious piano technicians and keep the comedians in their own lane.

Same with the tariff issue. There should be a "How pianos are affected by Government/Politics" community as well.

My understanding is that PIANOTECH is for discussing technical issues when answers can't be found elsewhere.

-chris

Well recently imposed tariffs are certainly relevant to piano service. And I think DEI is relevant to our PTG. By DEI, I mean what it stands for and not the politicized version of DEI. No "tit for tat" please. Just my opinion.

Exactly - there is nothing anywhere in this thread that will effect anyone's piano or how to service an instrument. It is a nothing post, in which if everyone posted every little snarky thought in our brains then this forum would really suck and be completely useless.  Thankfully we have other platforms to post such useless stuff.  This is an informational and educational website, thus the rules in place are for a very good reason.  It is not censorship lol.  It's literally how any forum works.  You just chose the wrong one this time is all.  No big deal unless people really just want to keep making it one.  

------------------------------
Matthew W.
A.M.O. Pianos
Lebanon, TN 37087

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2025 14:44
From: Paul Williams
Subject: bumped thread

Original Message:
Sent: 4/6/2025 2:34:00 PM
From: David Love
Subject: RE: bumped thread

Thank you Matthew W for weighing in. I obviously don't agree with you but won't file an anonymous complaint to have your post withdrawn in spite of our obvious differences. 

(I actually thought it was pretty funny, if it weren't such a tragedy. But I don't expect everyone to share my sense of humor, or even have one. Bless your heart, sir). 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2025 11:59
From: Matthew Walworth
Subject: bumped thread

I came to say the original post was political and of bad taste of someone who apparently is trying to poke fun at real issues of the day.  None of this belongs on this website and if you don't realize that then, you are part of the problem.  The attitudes of some of the contributors is not  welcoming to anyone who is trying to keep unnecessary politics away fom pianos.  It was a crude joke and not that funny at all, and now you're just being stubborn and childish.  I came to say this because I know lots of people feel the same way and are choosing to not chime in because this thread is not inviting for any real debate or logic so most people with real points and logic are STAYIING SILENT to watch the train crash into oblivion. Which in a way, is kind of entertaining. Your observational "joke" was anything but funny or observational, Sir.

------------------------------
Matthew W.
A.M.O. Pianos
Lebanon, TN 37087

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2025 10:46
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

All due respect William but you can't both support what Chris and I have said when Chris is calling me a liar. 

Re your other question on equity v equality, I really don't want to get into parsing those words, it's not really relevant and it's a distinction without a difference in this case. I've said my piece on this subject and moving on. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2025 19:17
From: William Truitt
Subject: bumped thread

I support what Chris has said 100% and I support what David has said 100%.  That does not mean I agree with either of them on everything, I think it is just fine for both of them to say whatever they want to say and it does not have to be polite or even wise.  

I remember the old pianotech forum.  That could be a very rough and tumble place to be, but was also incredibly vigorous and a wonderful learning and giving environment.  This milquetoast forum we have now does not hold a candle to it, and I would trade this for that in a heartbeat.  When i think of free speech and this forum, the word that comes to mind is neutered.

In terms of free speech, this THING is an utter mediocrity, where the narrow and small rule the day in arbitrariness and pettiness. 

If you take away by censorship the rights of free speech that I have anywhere else in this country, I will leave.  You do not own my free speech or that of anyone else.  Every time something like this comes up, I ask myself, WHY AM I STILL HERE?  

How many really good people have we lost in the the past few years to this stuff?  Why do highly valued members who have contributed much to all leave?  Why does that mean nothing to our powers that be?  Everything seems frozen in place, where there seems to be no need to change..  

------------------------------
William Truitt RPT
Bridgewater NH
(603) 744-2277

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2025 04:45
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

Micah

Yes, I think the rules are poorly written if one thin skinned, sanctimonious and humorless individual can anonymously dictate what gets taken down. I have no intention of flagging any remarks because I think there's no crime in being an idiot. In fact, I think idiocy should remain on full display for all to see. I consider that consistent with my commitment to DEI. Even idiots are welcome, but they don't get to operate with complete immunity from criticism.

I have reviewed the rules and find nothing I have said, that wasn't provoked, outside those boundaries. We're mostly adults here, with some notable exceptions, and should be able to handle some controversy and disagreement. 

But in the spirit of moving on I will let you and others have the last word as I don't have much more to contribute to this topic except to say I stand by everything I have written whether it's about any individual contributor to this list or the role I think the PTG should assume in this unprecedented political climate for the benefit and in defense of the industry and the dues paying members of this organization. When the President of the PTG or the board makes a comment on that, I may have something more to say. Until then, I'll consider their silence as their final word as disappointing and complicit as I might find that to be. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2025 01:12
From: Micah Sundholm
Subject: bumped thread

David,

I would be happy to have a private discussion about why that post was removed, if you'd like.  We really do try to be reasonable and accessible to the membership.

Regarding imbalanced "censorship", as you say - we only review comments or posts that have been flagged by a user. So feel free to flag anything you think should be checked, define which rule is being violated, and we'll review.  I'd say the same to everyone else here. Additionally, the Board makes no routine moderation decisions or recommendations, as you have said.  That's purely on my team, until we escalate a serious situation up to them and make a formal recommendation for a suspension/ban, which happens rarely, thankfully. 

We are a team of volunteers trying to foster a healthy environment to talk about pianos here, and have an obligation to enforce our online community rules in an increasingly tense social and political climate.  I would encourage you and everyone in this thread to review those rules and try to paint within the lines. It's not censorship, it's moderation, as every user of these forums agree to when they join.

I would encourage conversations that fall outside of those rules to occur off-platform or privately, as they can certainly be important discussions to have.  If one feels these rules are poorly written or need changing, an RFA may be submitted to the Board by the late April deadline. Council at the Annual Convention in July is an excellent place to raise concerns directly to the Board, as well.

------------------------------
Micah Sundholm - RPT
Summit Piano Service
Eugene, OR

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 17:27
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

Oh did I hurt your feelings Chris?  Then don't call me a liar.  

General comment (not for Chris, beyond his capacity):

It doesn't go unnoticed re the board monitoring and censoring my comments pointing out the irony and humor of the DEI programs and then developing those ideas in terms of how it might affect our industry, were completely impersonal.  But the defamatory language coming from Chris and the other unknown to me entity who made the comment "silence dogooder", whatever that means--a little work on wordsmithing is in order there--go unchecked.  I'd say our censorship practices are a bit out of balance.  

The PTG, if it sticks to its public message of DEI in broadening access to the trade (right now it can barely manage being non bullying to the many women members), will be under attack from this administration.  I would like to see the PTG make a statement of commitment to its members that it will stand by its mission statement.  It wouldn't be the first organization to bend the knee.

As far as Chris and his blowhard pals, they can bugger off as far as I'm concerned.  Feel free to censor that line if you wish.    

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 16:16
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: bumped thread

So two lies gets pointed out and the response is personal attacks. So classy.

-chris

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations

Inventor of Inertia Touch Wave (ITW)
Advanced Resonant Compression Engineered Soundboards (ARCHES)

865-986-7720 (text only please)

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 15:11
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

Well I tend not to take seriously accusations of lying from people who think the Earth is only 5000 years old.  

You are right Sitka is in Alaska! You win the geography prize but Sitka Spruce actually grows all over the Pacific Northwest including British Columbia and some comes in from there. Bolduc supplies mostly Canadian white spruce panels and rib stock, but they do also make available Sitka Spruce panels.  As to where they get their spruce from, I couldn't tell you, you'd have to ask them.  But it would surprise me if at this point they're getting any of it from the US though I would imagine they have a current stock. Nevertheless, I would expect to see price increases on anything wood from Canada, and that includes Bolduc, in this current tariff climate.

As far as substituting Adirondack spruce, have you tried to buy a small piece of Adirondack spruce maybe for a Guitar top and seen what the prices of that are? It's virtually, if not literally, endangered, quite limited. Steinway doesn't use it and pretty much no other Piano builders do that I'm aware of. Yes, we could manage to grow more I suppose.  I don't know about you, but I don't think I'll be here in 50 years to harvest that crop.  

So I appreciate you weighing in, again, trying your hardest to be relevant.  But, once again, I'm not surprised to find you don't know what the hell you're talking about. 

Nothing personal, just calling balls and strikes. Bless your little heart. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 11:34
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: bumped thread

I'm very much against censorship, but the post in question was politics disguised as a piano question and then claimed to be humor. To me its the lying that shows no class, but it should have stayed posted IMO.

Also, last i looked Sitka is in Alaska. Also, we wouldn't need to import if we used our own lumber such as the Adirondacks and other places. Instead of shutting those resource off on false environmental claims. Just some common sense forestry would save the species and provide the needed lumber.

-chris

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations

Inventor of Inertia Touch Wave (ITW)
Advanced Resonant Compression Engineered Soundboards (ARCHES)

865-986-7720 (text only please)

Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2025 09:56
From: Tremaine Parsons
Subject: bumped thread

David, Please do not leave these forums. You have been, and hopefully will be, very helpful to many Techs.

------------------------------
Tremaine Parsons RPT
Georgetown CA
(530) 333-9299

Original Message:
Sent: 04-03-2025 19:32
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

I did repost it in reply #12

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Quote from David Love:

"Well I tend not to take seriously accusations of lying from people who think the Earth is only 5000 years old"

Since this bit of comedy was allowed to stand. I would like to respond to it with a simple question.

When did life originating in a pond millions of years ago, stop being a THEORY to becoming fact?

-chris

Maybe the PTG can start a Piano Humor Community. Designed for people who think they are comedians and post their "comedy" there. This could circumvent the need to post bad humour, or use humor as a disguise for a political post on a forum which was designed for sharing piano technical information. This would help from chasing away serious piano technicians and keep the comedians in their own lane.

Same with the tariff issue. There should be a "How pianos are affected by Government/Politics" community as well.

My understanding is that PIANOTECH is for discussing technical issues when answers can't be found elsewhere.

-chris

Well recently imposed tariffs are certainly relevant to piano service. And I think DEI is relevant to our PTG. By DEI, I mean what it stands for and not the politicized version of DEI. No "tit for tat" please. Just my opinion.

Exactly - there is nothing anywhere in this thread that will effect anyone's piano or how to service an instrument. It is a nothing post, in which if everyone posted every little snarky thought in our brains then this forum would really suck and be completely useless.  Thankfully we have other platforms to post such useless stuff.  This is an informational and educational website, thus the rules in place are for a very good reason.  It is not censorship lol.  It's literally how any forum works.  You just chose the wrong one this time is all.  No big deal unless people really just want to keep making it one.  

------------------------------
Matthew W.
A.M.O. Pianos
Lebanon, TN 37087

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2025 14:44
From: Paul Williams
Subject: bumped thread

Original Message:
Sent: 4/6/2025 2:34:00 PM
From: David Love
Subject: RE: bumped thread

Thank you Matthew W for weighing in. I obviously don't agree with you but won't file an anonymous complaint to have your post withdrawn in spite of our obvious differences. 

(I actually thought it was pretty funny, if it weren't such a tragedy. But I don't expect everyone to share my sense of humor, or even have one. Bless your heart, sir). 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2025 11:59
From: Matthew Walworth
Subject: bumped thread

I came to say the original post was political and of bad taste of someone who apparently is trying to poke fun at real issues of the day.  None of this belongs on this website and if you don't realize that then, you are part of the problem.  The attitudes of some of the contributors is not  welcoming to anyone who is trying to keep unnecessary politics away fom pianos.  It was a crude joke and not that funny at all, and now you're just being stubborn and childish.  I came to say this because I know lots of people feel the same way and are choosing to not chime in because this thread is not inviting for any real debate or logic so most people with real points and logic are STAYIING SILENT to watch the train crash into oblivion. Which in a way, is kind of entertaining. Your observational "joke" was anything but funny or observational, Sir.

------------------------------
Matthew W.
A.M.O. Pianos
Lebanon, TN 37087

Original Message:
Sent: 04-06-2025 10:46
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

All due respect William but you can't both support what Chris and I have said when Chris is calling me a liar. 

Re your other question on equity v equality, I really don't want to get into parsing those words, it's not really relevant and it's a distinction without a difference in this case. I've said my piece on this subject and moving on. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2025 19:17
From: William Truitt
Subject: bumped thread

I support what Chris has said 100% and I support what David has said 100%.  That does not mean I agree with either of them on everything, I think it is just fine for both of them to say whatever they want to say and it does not have to be polite or even wise.  

I remember the old pianotech forum.  That could be a very rough and tumble place to be, but was also incredibly vigorous and a wonderful learning and giving environment.  This milquetoast forum we have now does not hold a candle to it, and I would trade this for that in a heartbeat.  When i think of free speech and this forum, the word that comes to mind is neutered.

In terms of free speech, this THING is an utter mediocrity, where the narrow and small rule the day in arbitrariness and pettiness. 

If you take away by censorship the rights of free speech that I have anywhere else in this country, I will leave.  You do not own my free speech or that of anyone else.  Every time something like this comes up, I ask myself, WHY AM I STILL HERE?  

How many really good people have we lost in the the past few years to this stuff?  Why do highly valued members who have contributed much to all leave?  Why does that mean nothing to our powers that be?  Everything seems frozen in place, where there seems to be no need to change..  

------------------------------
William Truitt RPT
Bridgewater NH
(603) 744-2277

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2025 04:45
From: David Love
Subject: bumped thread

Micah

Yes, I think the rules are poorly written if one thin skinned, sanctimonious and humorless individual can anonymously dictate what gets taken down. I have no intention of flagging any remarks because I think there's no crime in being an idiot. In fact, I think idiocy should remain on full display for all to see. I consider that consistent with my commitment to DEI. Even idiots are welcome, but they don't get to operate with complete immunity from criticism.

I have reviewed the rules and find nothing I have said, that wasn't provoked, outside those boundaries. We're mostly adults here, with some notable exceptions, and should be able to handle some controversy and disagreement. 

But in the spirit of moving on I will let you and others have the last word as I don't have much more to contribute to this topic except to say I stand by everything I have written whether it's about any individual contributor to this list or the role I think the PTG should assume in this unprecedented political climate for the benefit and in defense of the industry and the dues paying members of this organization. When the President of the PTG or the board makes a comment on that, I may have something more to say. Until then, I'll consider their silence as their final word as disappointing and complicit as I might find that to be. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 04-05-2025 01:12
From: Micah Sundholm
Subject: bumped thread