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CA for troubled concert Steinway?

  • 1.  CA for troubled concert Steinway?

    Posted 07-02-2024 16:36

    Having travelled across Europe today to deal with a clutch of conservatoire and concert hall instruments I'm warned of a troublesome one tomorrow.

    A Steinway used for outside concerts has been abused with wide variations of temperature and humidity.

    A former conservatoire tech has "cured" loose pins by hammering them in about which the Director of the conservatoire was concerned, and I'm told that other ins are likely to be loose.

    My gut feeling is that nothing short of a rebuild with new wrest plank is the real answer but we all know of the magic that ÇA treatment can bring. Is there any reason not to do it?

    Best wishes

    David P



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    David Pinnegar BSc ARCS
    Hammerwood Park, East Grinstead, Sussex, UK
    +44 1342 850594
    "High Definition" Tuning
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  • 2.  RE: CA for troubled concert Steinway?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-02-2024 17:38
    I've had limited experience with CA glue in pin blocks, but the ones I've done have worked. On one a pin was so loose it spun the hammer around, but after a couple of drops of CA glue, it held. It was not up to torque, but it held. I've done another piano where the pins in the whole bass part of the block were on the loose side, but still tunable, but were tight for tuning purposes after the CA treatment. 

    I believe CA is a good stop gap measure that can last several years. But I would certainly tell the owner that they should budget for a new block in a couple of years. 





  • 3.  RE: CA for troubled concert Steinway?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-02-2024 18:20

    David,

    I concur with Wim, but I would like to add. I believe it is necessary to pay close attention to the expiration date. I don't purchase any CA that does not have an expiration date. Usually one-year is the shelf life on good industrial CA.  



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    Roger Gable RPT
    Gable Piano
    Everett WA
    (425) 252-5000
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    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: CA for troubled concert Steinway?

    Posted 07-02-2024 19:00
    Many thanks to both. I've had good experience in the past and had packed a ÇA in a transparent container which looks very liquid and comes with a particularly controllable thin tube applicator. If it's in danger of being too thick it won't get through the tube

    I noted on another Steinway B today that the pin holes go right through the wrest plank. Whilst normally one would treat from above a more radical approach, but not on a casual tuning might be to treat from underneath, slackening the pins by say 1/4 turn...

    With the 19th century Broadwoods which had metal wrest plates with screw threaded holes and threaded pins this is the only way to do it 

    Using ÇA on a Steinway seems so implicitly irreverent so very appreciative to here others would do it too.

    Many thanks

    David P 


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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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    +44 1342 850594



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  • 5.  RE: CA for troubled concert Steinway?

    Member
    Posted 07-02-2024 19:23

    Remove the action and cover the keybed with newspaper or cardboard. I always buy new thin CA glue from a local hobby shop or order it from a piano supply house if I have time. Treating the entire pinblock 2 to 3 times will buy you lots of time and make things even  Banging in tuning pins is not a great idea and not only changes string angles but also  increases the chance of cracking the pinblock. I have treated many pianos with CA and bought them a few years. The fact the piano is a Steinway should not matter. 



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    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
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    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: CA for troubled concert Steinway?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-03-2024 23:09

    Hello David,

     You mentioned, "might be to treat from underneath."

    I flipped a grand on its lid side ( the lid was removed) and treated it from underneath; the results were underwhelming.  I filled the tuning pin holes with glue and let it rest, flipped it back onto its feet a few days later, and the results were not impressive.  I found better luck with treating from above.



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    Gina Bonfietti, RPT
    Connecticut
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    Original Message


  • 7.  RE: CA for troubled concert Steinway?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-04-2024 08:45

    Yes, generally speaking the "problem area" is on the top side of the pinblock which widens with age (one needn't even tine the thing, it's the tension 24/7 that does it). "Less is more" in these instances (generally speaking) where only enough to restore enough torque to tune us needed. Soaking is unnecessary (unless it's a total basket case). I would never flip the piano to do this job...way too much risk for too little benefit. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: CA for troubled concert Steinway?

    Posted 07-04-2024 11:07
    Yes. Luckily no work happened to be necessary on this occasion. On the 19th century Broadwoods with threaded iron frame there is no access from the top. Bottom access for ÇA would only work if as a pin is screwed in, it bites into the new ÇA material so it would be a last resort where pins were probably unscrewed two turns so that upon retensioning they're going down and biting into the reduced diameter provided by the ÇA

    This afternoon I'm plagued whilst revoicing by a previously broken and repaired hammer broken at the break again. ÇA has come to the rescue but in the dryness of Greece the glue is taking an age to set. Sadly no kettle on site to generate steam and I hadn't brought accelerator on the plane.

     Patience is the only cure ...

    Best wishes 

    David P 

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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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    +44 1342 850594



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  • 9.  RE: CA for troubled concert Steinway?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-05-2024 01:26
    An atomized spritz of water, or even rubbing alcohol will help accelerate the cure. Or blowing on it (there’s water vapor in our exhalations.)

    Rubbing alcohol will make the cure cloudy however, if appearance is an issue.

    Joe Wiencek
    NYC


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  • 10.  RE: CA for troubled concert Steinway?

    Posted 07-05-2024 01:33
    Joe! Thanks! You're a star! Will make sure I travel with one next time. In England it's always damp but in a place where 2000 year old temples are preserved, not a chance.

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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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    +44 1342 850594



    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: CA for troubled concert Steinway?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-06-2024 08:19
    Baby wipes work quite well. Mine cover about 10 unisons - so CA 10 unisons, cover pins with a baby wipe and continue to the end.

    Bob Anderson, RPT
    Tucson, AZ



    Original Message


  • 12.  RE: CA for troubled concert Steinway?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-03-2024 08:06
    Remember to use the super-thin viscosity, David. What I find equally worrisome is that someone had pounded the pins deeper into the block. I have seen too many case where the string was pounded in too far. More problems ensue.

    Bob Anderson, RPT
    Tucson, AZ 





  • 13.  RE: CA for troubled concert Steinway?

    Posted 07-03-2024 08:43

    Steinway pianos don't have tuning pin bushings, and the plate webbing is relatively thin. 

    This can be advantageous in applying CA glue, as the pins will be leaning forward somewhat and you can apply a few drops of CA directly into the pinblock in the gap behind the pin.

    Don't soak it, apply discretely, wait a few minutes, test the torque and if needed, apply a little more.



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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
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  • 14.  RE: CA for troubled concert Steinway?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-03-2024 10:07
    I’ll echo what others have said, with just a few additions:
    1. For grands, I now inject the glue using hypodermic needles. When you invert a bottle, even one with a special tip, there is still the possibility that the glue, which is very thin, will leak out. If a little happens to drip onto the plate, do not rub it with a rag-it’ll just smear the finish and be even more obvious.
    2. Have a fan blowing air across the work area and out an open window. Or, see the Journal tip about fumeless CA (if available).
    3. More than one treatment may be necessary.




  • 15.  RE: CA for troubled concert Steinway?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-03-2024 11:08
    Scott,

    any time I have tried to use a 'needle' with superglue, it has clogged it up within a few minutes! what is your secret?
    603.312.5169




    Original Message


  • 16.  RE: CA for troubled concert Steinway?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-03-2024 13:42

    I use these pipettes



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    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
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    Original Message


  • 17.  RE: CA for troubled concert Steinway?

    Posted 07-03-2024 16:51
    Thanks so much to all

    In UK one can buy ÇA with long tubes ending in a 1mm tip

    However the instrument today proved interesting. It has been attended to by someone without a great deal of experience ;-) who simply thought pins weren't tight enough :-( They tuned beautifully but the ones he had bashed in were so tight that a fine tuning wasn't greatly doable on them. I'd come prepared with a bag of red felt washers which I use to indicate pins of interest so using them left any obviously looser than others identified for when I return in September 

    Moral of the story - don't let anyone with less than fifty pianos experience near a concert instrument!

    Best wishes 

    David P

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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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    +44 1342 850594





    Original Message


  • 18.  RE: CA for troubled concert Steinway?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-03-2024 18:02

    Another applicator option. I use the Hypo Oilers from Schaff for thin CA, product number 189. They offer two bottle sizes, I usually use the larger "HYPO-25".

    Squeeze the bottle in its upright position to create a vacuum, then tip it upside down for gluing. The thin gauge needle allows for good control. In between each tuning pin CA application, loosen your grip on the bottle enough to stop the CA flow.

    Sometimes the needle gets clogged with cured CA. Hold the bottle upright, heat the needle end with a lighter while squeezing, and it will clear.


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