Norman, thanks for the questions - the last question about inharmonicity.. someone may point you to a source, but it is my understanding that systems that are driven (bowed, blown) tend to have almost no inharmonicity.
But to the question of progressive rapidly beating intervals, I think the developer started with the germ of the idea for his tuning app years ago on another internet tech forum. There was the old aural vs. ETD fight going on and the techs decided that progressive thirds through the temperament would be the test. He came up with a beat counting/measuring program (another programmer had one working too.) where techs could post recording and then he would post the results. I would say techs were surprised (sometimes not pleasantly) by the results..
There are actually two variables that intersect with my testing a few ETDs for progressive thirds. One is if the calculation actually produces that, the other is if the display gives enough feedback to the tech to actually produce the desired results.
On the test piano, PiaTune predicted for an octave: M3rd beat/second
5.0, 5.5, 5.8, 6.1, 6.6, 7.1, 7.5, 8.0, 8.5, 8.7, 9.6, 10.1, 11.7
I was able to tune strip muted middle string:
5.1, 5.7, 6.5, 6.4, 6.8, 7.0, 7.5, 7.9, 8.3, 8.9, 9.3, 10.0, 10.8
Three other platforms: (some that I have endorsed over the years)
6.2, 5.6, 6.6, 7.0, 6.2, 7.2, 6.8, 6.8, 8.3, 10.1, 9.2, 10.2, 10.7
6.4, 6.0, 6.7, 6.5, 5.9, 6.5, 7.4, 7.9, 8.1, 8.7, 9.2, 8.8, 9.8
6.2, 5.9, 6.9, 6.8, 6.2, 6.7, 7.5, 8.4, 8.0, 8.7, 8.2, 8.7, 11.7
This is only a single test, so I invite anyone else with $100 to spend on a new app to improve the data pool!
I do remember reading responses from techs similar to "that's close enough, no one could really hear a difference anyway". Similar to the older statements when techs started bringing technology to rescaling pianos as well as touch weight and leverage redesign for actions!
Ron Koval
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Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL
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Original Message:
Sent: 09-06-2022 19:04
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Considering an electronic tuning device?
Interesting discussion of PiaTune and ETD's in general. I'm probably confused about your last comment, Ron, about "progressive rapidly beating intervals." Even with a lesser piano, I would expect PiaTune to produce an increasing progression of coincident partials, say of Major Thirds, in the temperament octave area. (Excuse my likely misunderstanding.)
A question: When I get in a discussion with a customer about aural tuning versus visual tuning with an ETD, I always say that either approach should produce the same good quality of tuning result if the tuner is professionally trained and qualified. After the discussion above on resolution, am I still correct in saying that -- or are there some undesirable ETD's that, try as best you can, won't produce a good result?
Those inharmonicity curves are always very interesting. Without going to a formula to worry about tension and density and string stiffness, I got thinking about instruments like violins and cellos playing in accompaniment with a piano. If anyone wants to recommend a Journal article that discusses the difficulties from both a temperament and an inharmonicity perspective of the instruments playing together, it would be appreciated -- since I presume that the strings of a violin or cello have much less inharmonicity than those of a piano.
Thanks. Norman
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Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
Original Message:
Sent: 09-05-2022 16:09
From: Ron Koval
Subject: Considering an electronic tuning device?
PiaTune does have the ability to choose partials for each note while tuning.
Pretty standard overpull measuring option with a warning if the starting value is more than 10c off from the previous note.
Auto mic level or choose starting and ending level for noisy situations.
Inharmonicity measuring only needs to be done once. The graph populates while measuring so it is easy to verify or remeasure outliers.
There is an option to tune using a generic inharmonicity file.
There are many stretch options for temperament, bass and treble. Starting a tuning, the options pre-set these based on spinet/console, upright, small grand and large grand. I tend to aurally verify or adjust stretch parameters for pianos I haven't tuned before.
It was the only app (I have a bunch) tested on a lesser piano to produce progressive rapidly beating intervals through the temperament...
Ron Koval
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Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL
Original Message:
Sent: 09-03-2022 16:02
From: Ron Koval
Subject: Considering an electronic tuning device?
I've been beta testing the new tuning app "PiaTune" which is now available for ios. Lots of features, free trial period and affordable. It measures inharmonicity of each note from A0-C8 so can really adapt to wonky scales. Has an option to start by tuning an aural sequence, or pre-measure before tuning. Wicked precise logrithmic scale option for the tuning screen gives a wider range between +/- 1 cent. One unique feature is the "measure beats" for M3, 6ths and 10ths in the midrange. That was an eye-opener when comparing different tuning devices to see if they really created a smooth rapid beat progression... Ask away and I'll check back!
Ron Koval
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Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL
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